Export thread

I was using the drill (15/16) to start my engine. However, once I got it started, the extension on the end of the socket spun out of orbit and broke the crankshaft just past the starter clutch. My issue before is that the pull start would and does not want to start the engine. The drill however, be it gas or ESF would make it start. My 5HP uses the magnet on the flywheel to make a spark, not the points and condenser. Now, I have finally got everything back together, new crankshaft, piston rings, and crank case gasket, but my socket does not fit the new starter clutch. It barely catches, then slips. I think once before the crankshaft broke I sprayed ESF in the intake and the pull start was able to crank it. I cant remember that well honestly. But, now with everything installed, the pull start gets to a point where it wants to start the engine, but it just wont. Like, I hear the compression, but it just doesnt seem like the engine will make a full revolution on its own. :thumbdown::frown: Any suggestions? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Thanks, charlie

you can take the spark plug out and lay with the threads touching exposed metal with the cap on the other end and have someone pull the start ...see if you see a spark. could be the transistor pack in the coil since you do not have points. first you may want to squirt some carb cleaner in the carb to see if that will kick over the engine. If you have the plastic carb I would only squirt sensor safe throttle body cleaner.

It has spark for sure. Found that out the hard way. I put the carb and tank back on and it seems like it wants to start, but wont get to it. I got the exhaust hole to pop once or twice but that was out of like fifty pulls. Any other ideas?

Alright, so I finally got the socket to go on the clutch. Now, as I was spinning it (Engine would do three revolutions like if I pulled it) the gas tank caught on fire (on the outside, I just sprayed it down.) I have used every technique in the book to try to get this engine started. I have sprayed fluid into the head, the carb, even right into the intake, and nothing. If anyone could help me at all, I would really be appreciative.

-Thanks

Sounds like the main problem you have is trying to keep using that drill....

Any best guess in all of this convoluted story, is that in your travails, that you have not torqued/tightened the flywheel fastener down tight enough and have sheared the key....

Fish said:

Sounds like the main problem you have is trying to keep using that drill....

Any best guess in all of this convoluted story, is that in your travails, that you have not torqued/tightened the flywheel fastener down tight enough and have sheared the key....

Click to expand...

Flywheel Faster? I know there was a washer that went between it and the flywheel. Before I installed the clutch, I made sure to slide they key in the slit. Is it possible I slid it too far? I tightened the clutch as much as i could, while bracing the flywheel, and using a clutch tool.

check the key, it is likely sheared.

Fish said:

check the key, it is likely sheared.

Click to expand...

Sadly, as I suspected, the key is in 100% intact condition. Just had to pull the clutch and the washer off. When I got to the bottom of the flywheel though, the key was all the way in the hole underneath the wheel. Would this have any effect on it? I did put it in that place like that, but I figured it would need to be out just a little bit. Any other ideas?

-Thanks.

Anyone else have any other suggestions? I've pretty much covered every possibility I could find.

ProTechCharlie said:

Anyone else have any other suggestions? I've pretty much covered every possibility I could find.

Click to expand...

I would clean the carb up. I would also change the spark plug. Check the old spark plug for oil and carbon. Check your brake cable as well. Check your oil level. I believe that your flywheel key should be up a little so you can see it when you remove the recoil assembly. Try those things and see if the works. Good luck.

Derson59 said:

I would clean the carb up. I would also change the spark plug. Check the old spark plug for oil and carbon. Check your brake cable as well. Check your oil level. I believe that your flywheel key should be up a little so you can see it when you remove the recoil assembly. Try those things and see if the works. Good luck.

Click to expand...

Swapped plugs, let it dry out from last night, and tried to start it, sprayed fluid into the intake so see if it would even catch, and the engine caught on fire again. Only the outside though. Oil level is right up to the top thread of the fill. I am really at a loss of suggestions for even myself at this point. Any other ideas guys?

-Thanks.

Step back and slowly retell the chain of events, it isn't likely all that complicated, but the stories of the broken crank and gas tank fires, drills, etc., are
a tad confusing. The last time it started and ran, what happened? Did something happen while trying to start it, while using it, hit a stump?

Then what did you try/do? What after that? What broke the crank? The fire happened after you tried to repair it?

At this point, I would say that you have an intake valve not fully closing, but please give us the needed details.

I mean, the first red flag was that you sheared off the crankshaft with a drill? One that you have been using for years to start this thing? Are you built like King Kong?

Put up some pics, of your rig before and after, and I'll hop back on the wagon.....

Fish said:

Step back and slowly retell the chain of events, it isn't likely all that complicated, but the stories of the broken crank and gas tank fires, drills, etc., are
a tad confusing. The last time it started and ran, what happened? Did something happen while trying to start it, while using it, hit a stump?

Then what did you try/do? What after that? What broke the crank? The fire happened after you tried to repair it?

At this point, I would say that you have an intake valve not fully closing, but please give us the needed details.

Click to expand...

Okay. So here is the story. My dad went to a yard sale and bought a Kee mower deck. I guess they were really nice back in the day or whatever. The guy threw the Briggs 5HP on it for free. But, it did not start, even with fuel in the tank. So, me being in BMW STEP, graduated now, considered this to be an easy tackle, small engine, no start, must be the carb. So I sprayed ESF into the carb, and it did not start. I thought "hmm the carb must be blocked allowing nothing to go out". So I tilted the engine upwards to help the fluid flow into the intake, and I finally was able to get it to turn over. So, I decided to rebuild the carb. I did so, and still nothing flowed. Then, I rebuilt it again, and nothing. So, I turned to spraying fluid into the intake, only then was I able to make it turn over. So, I bought a new carb and fuel tank. While waiting on the carb to ship, I took off the head and inspected the upper cylinder, nothing out of the ordinary, some carbon on the valves, some on the head, not very much on the piston head. Also, there were not really any scratches on the inside of the piston, so i assumed it had good compression. Then, still while waiting, I thought that using the drill to start it over the pull start-recoil, would be better, since it would make less wear and tear on my recoil assembly. So, I would spray fluid into the intake, turn the drill, and it would make some revolutions before it all evaporated. Finally the new carb and tank arrived, put gas in it, hooked it up to the intake on the engine and viola! It ran :thumbsup:. But, I was going to reassemble everything, and I did, and I thought that I could start it and fiddle with the fuel/air knob to get it to run nicely. Well, the pull start was unable to start the engine. No amount of me pulling was able to get it to run under its own power. So, I took it off, and hooked the drill up to it (15/16 socket, extension, and drill, usually, the drill would do about the same number of revolutions before it wanted to recoil) and it started. I also had the choke pulled out if that makes a a difference. Well, as I was trying to adjust the fuel/air knob, the extension orbited out of the correct orientation and caused the shaft to break (including the clutch) just under the flywheel. I put it all back together and ordered the parts.

Fast forward to this past week. It installed new piston rings, then put the crank shaft in, aligned the cam with the crank shaft, after installing the connecting rod and splasher. Then installed a new gear case gasket. Then, installed the head. I turned the PTO end of the shaft a few times to make sure I could hear compression, and see the valves move. I also put while lithium grease on the part where the flywheel goes, and for the connecting rod space as well. Also put some on the PTO end. I also filled it up with oil. Then came the first test, no luck. This was with the carb removed. I pulled about fifty times, and it only got close to making power under its own. I was also spraying ESF because without it, I would not know if there was a spark. So, no luck for a while. Yesterday, I was able to get it to pop after pulling it once or twice (out of what seemed to be about a hundred tries, literally). All of the pulls, I used ESF. Now, I hooked the carb up and put gas in, and still no luck pulling it. Not even on choke, adjusting the knob, putting ESF into the head OR the carb, nothing, though it seemed to be getting very close. Then I figured out how to hook the drill up, and tried it that way. I seen a flame out of the exhaust hole and thought nothing of it. A few tries later, and the outside of the carb caught on fire (loose gas mostly) then I sprayed it down carefully, and let it sit. I did what you guys suggested last night and the key was and is intact. I took off the head this morning to inspect the valves, and they looked liked they were fine (I can provide photos for your inspection) but there seemed to be gooey carbon on the head of the piston and cylinder head (I scraped it and removed it). I replaced the spark plug as well. I know the flywheel is providing spark and the coil because I held onto it as someone else pulled and it gave me a good little tingle. I tried to start it with the carb removed and it caught on fire again. I looked in the breather hole and the springs for the valves, im not sure how to recognize them on this engine (if its right or wrong, again, I will provide photos for your inspection). I try it with the carb off because that is how i confirm igniton, if it runs for a few seconds, then we are good. But, no such luck. I hope this helps. The valves also moved when i turned them with my thumb. Also, today, I was using the pull start, no more drill after the engine caught on fire.

Fish said:

I mean, the first red flag was that you sheared off the crankshaft with a drill? One that you have been using for years to start this thing? Are you built like King Kong?

Put up some pics, of your rig before and after, and I'll hop back on the wagon.....

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean, but I only have had this engine for a few months, and I did not break it with the drill. The extension did. King Kong? I am not sure what you mean by that but I wont take it offensively...

As for photos, I will upload as many as you would like. I have some of the broken shaft (outside of the engine) and the engine on the deck with the new carb and tank. Also, I have some photos of the inside of the engine. Whichever ones you want, i would be happy to give them to you. :biggrin:

Here are some photos. Not sure why you need them to "hop back on the wagon"? But here are most. Some show the place where the shaft broke, the intact key, interior of the engine, and...there are some others, but I cannot look at them until after I post, which right now, i am still typing the post. If you would like more, I could take apart the engine further and take some? Or, I could possibly take a video and put it on YouTube, if that would better help you identify the problem I'm having, which seems to be unsolvable. If you need anything else, just ask! If anyone has any more ideas or suggestions, please feel free to put them in the thread here! Thank you Fish for all your help, and others, so far! :thumbsup::smile::biggrin:

Not trying to offend in any way, but helping folks online with little or no info, is not an easy task. Folks online are usually on the defensive anyway, so my
comments and questions are usually not taken well.

Let me read and digest your last 2 excellent posts, and get back to you here in a bit....

Have you posted the engine's model/type/code numbers?

Looking at that ugly coil you have on there, that is likely your trouble area!!!!

Fish said:

Have you posted the engine's model/type/code numbers?

Looking at that ugly coil you have on there, that is likely your trouble area!!!!

Click to expand...

The guy who had it before put a newer flywheel case on it, the original I'm sure looks much older. Though, I know my engine is from 1982 onward because that is when points were stopped being made (but not all around). So far, the closest match I can come up with is 130202, and even then, there are some differences.

The coil is pretty ugly, but keep in mind he painted the engine, some of that rust looking stuff, could in fact be paint. And how would I test the coil? I know it's putting something out because I have felt it really well on several occasions. I'd rather not spend another thirty on this engine because that would put me at about sixty invested, and I'm not sure I could even get that much out of it. Is there any way to test it, other than me holding on to it? That hurts quite a bit.

-Thanks for taking time to help me! :thumbsup::biggrin:

Does anyone else have any suggestions or ideas? The only other thing I could narrow it down to would be the valves, but they open and close just fine. What else would cause a backfire to come through the intake? Any ideas or help, I would more than appreciate it.

-Thanks.

sounds like the diaphragm is bad to me...

the carb diaphragm is bad

skinnyt73 said:

the carb diaphragm is bad

Click to expand...

I am sorry to tell you, and maybe I was not clear enough in my prior posts, but, this is happening with the carb and fuel tank off. Fire will come right out of the intake hole. As Fish suggested, it could be my ignition coil, but how would this cause the intake to have fire come out of it, twice? Thank you for your suggestion though, and I do apologize for not being clear enough in my previous posts.

For all those still interested in my little fiasco, I am uploading a video to YouTube. Here, I took a video of the spark that the ignition coil is providing, whether it is enough or not, that will be for you guys to decide. Once it is uploaded, I will paste the link here. Thank you guys for all your help, and I hope that we can figure this out soon, and together. :biggrin::smile:

The video is herehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWewGICDQ3s&list=UUwqNMVMMsbcApQC8puuuzEg) You should watch it in 720p to make it easier to identify the spark. Thank you to all who have chimed in!

-Thanks, Charlie.

Do it again, but this time leave the side of the plug/metal against the bolt head, not up close to the electrode. Also, turn the lights off, that should lay it out plain. If you have to pull 5 times to get a little spark, then your ignition system is not up to snuff.....

Fish said:

Do it again, but this time leave the side of the plug/metal against the bolt head, not up close to the electrode. Also, turn the lights off, that should lay it out plain. If you have to pull 5 times to get a little spark, then your ignition system is not up to snuff.....

Click to expand...

Well, you could see a little spark couldnt you? I will go out later tonight and give it a few pulls. Do you think what you seen was enough for combustion?

-Thanks, Charlie.

If you only see an intermittent spark every few pulls, then you need to fix your ignition. Your mower's history, who knows else what may be haywire?

Fish said:

If you only see an intermittent spark every few pulls, then you need to fix your ignition. Your mower's history, who knows else what may be haywire?

Click to expand...

I got another video recorded. I will upload it in a few minutes. At night, it seems every pull made it jump the gap. Here is the link. I can confirm that every pull, it made spark, even when the camera was not on it. Here: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1q_SPcAiJc&list=UUwqNMVMMsbcApQC8puuuzEg)

What do you think?

I may have missed it but what is the compression at?

Mikel1 said:

I may have missed it but what is the compression at?

Click to expand...

I have not tested it. But, I have many reasons to believe that it has good compression.

1) It is difficult to move without the pull start attached (by hand).
2) I can hear it.
3) Put my finger in the plug hole and it blew past.
4) Installed new rings.
5) Installed new crank case gasket.
6) When I take the head off after trying to start it, I CAN SEE GAS ON THE VALVES AND INSIDE THE HEAD!!!!!!!!!!
7) Valves open and shut according to piston position and there is no overlap between the intake and exhaust opening and closing.

The sixth point leads me to believe Fish. Because, gas from the tank would not be in the dry head, if it did not have enough compression to suck them in. (I know it was dry because I installed the tank when the head was 100% dry). I have poured gas, ESF, and carb cleaner right in the head, and NOTHING!!! I think the spark is so weak that it is unable to ignite the combustible fluids. But it gives me a good little jolt when I pull the starter, which leads me to believe that it is providing enough current.

If spark is weak then that could possibly be your problem. I have my doubts from looking at your video, though.
Actually compression can be low and still have enough to pull in fuel. I have the 130202 on a tiller and at 30psi compression it sent a flame(backfire) out of the carb.

Mikel1 said:

If spark is weak then that could possibly be your problem. I have my doubts from looking at your video, though.
Actually compression can be low and still have enough to pull in fuel. I have the 130202 on a tiller and at 30psi compression it sent a flame(backfire) out of the carb.

Click to expand...

I don't mean to question you, but you think my two videos show I have enough spark to start the ignition and have combustion? I just don't know, I mean, I would think that even the smallest spark would set off those fluids. Especially ESF or gas. I put carb cleaner in the carb, and I tried to start it, and it got really close, to the point where it was almost spinning by itself, and that is what makes me think of weak spark, but at night, and when I hold onto it, it seems to be enough? Maybe it just looks like enough? Your thoughts? I also apologize if I sounded offensive towards you in any of my posts, that wasn't the intention.

I'll try to stick a compression tester on it tomorrow. See if they have one I can use at an auto parts store. But what would cause my leak? I've went either checked or replaced (replaced most) of the common compression failure causes. Your thoughts on this as well?

-Thanks, Charlie.

On the first video it appeared weak but was hard to tell. The second video looked alot better. Doesn't take much of a spark to pop off with esf. I personally like this tester, hands free and a large gap for spark to jump Small Engine Spark Tester "The Best Made" | eBay

Since you have verified timing and fuel then there's only spark and compression left that are not 100% certain. A compression test can rule out low compression which will leave you with one remaining piece of the puzzle left. You may be able to borrow one if you have a good mechanic friend.
Yeah it was a little offensive for a simple question, so I accept your apology. Just remember the members here are trying to help you out.:smile:

There is a lot of vague area here, as we have no model numbers of the original engine, as well as the donor engines, so there may be a lot of "unknowns"..

On his videos, the sound of him pulling the rope with the plug out, sounds oddly "squishy". Don't know if it is from a flooded block, or what.
And using cranks/cams from engines with close displacements, well, who knows?

The knarly looking coil, well that just caught my eye, and may or may not be noteworthy, but we are plinking around with a puzzle with not a lot of firm
data to really grab onto.

Mikel1 said:

On the first video it appeared weak but was hard to tell. The second video looked alot better. Doesn't take much of a spark to pop off with esf. I personally like this tester, hands free and a large gap for spark to jump Small Engine Spark Tester "The Best Made" | eBay

Since you have verified timing and fuel then there's only spark and compression left that are not 100% certain. A compression test can rule out low compression which will leave you with one remaining piece of the puzzle left. You may be able to borrow one if you have a good mechanic friend.
Yeah it was a little offensive for a simple question, so I accept your apology. Just remember the members here are trying to help you out.:smile:

Click to expand...

I know the first one looked weak, but the second looked fine. And, by no means did trying to start it either time give me any positive results. I am not sure how that is possible. I agree that even the smallest spark will set of ESF. Which, we can see the spark, so how come it isnt allowing combustion?

Thank you again. I will try to see if I can grab a tester from autozone (compression tester) for rent. But, I am not really sure how I would have lost compression, at all. I made sure to cover my tracks with that, but the test will give the truth. Again, sorry to sound offensive, I just wanted to know why you thought that (to get more ideas of what others think). Thank you for helping! Ill be sure to get back to you tommrow if I can test it.

-Thanks, Charlie.

Fish said:

There is a lot of vague area here, as we have no model numbers of the original engine, as well as the donor engines, so there may be a lot of "unknowns"..

On his videos, the sound of him pulling the rope with the plug out, sounds oddly "squishy". Don't know if it is from a flooded block, or what.
And using cranks/cams from engines with close displacements, well, who knows?

The knarly looking coil, well that just caught my eye, and may or may not be noteworthy, but we are plinking around with a puzzle with not a lot of firm
data to really grab onto.

Click to expand...

The only close model number is 130202. I know that particular number uses points to start the engine, which is where I am confused. So, truly, I have no idea what my model is. Thanks for trying though. Kind of cheeses me off that the previous owner put the wrong housing on there. This engine is for sure not I/C.

The new crank, as for that, I found that after an extensive search (two or three days) and it is used. I could not find one with the end where the clutch goes, most would just stop after the threads for the clutch, with no extension. Others, would have the wrong PTO. I even received one for a 3.5 HP or a 4 HP by mistake, but I returned it. The crank I installed came off a 130202 as advertised. The cam is original and did not seem to have lobe wear (made sure to spin it a few times before putting the gear case back on.

As for the coil, and this goes for mike, if the compression test gives me good results, then I shall buy a new coil. I think it would be cheaper to rent a compression tester and get my money back, rather than buying a spark tester, then finding out it is compression and not being able to get my money back. Do you guys know if a tester that I can use at Autozone will fit in my plug hole?

Again, thanks for all the help, and if I ever step over the line and sound offensive, that is not the intention in the least.

-Thanks, Charlie.

ProTechCharlie said:

The only close model number is 130202. I know that particular number uses points to start the engine, which is where I am confused. So, truly, I have no idea what my model is. Thanks for trying though. Kind of cheeses me off that the previous owner put the wrong housing on there. This engine is for sure not I/C.

The new crank, as for that, I found that after an extensive search (two or three days) and it is used. I could not find one with the end where the clutch goes, most would just stop after the threads for the clutch, with no extension. Others, would have the wrong PTO. I even received one for a 3.5 HP or a 4 HP by mistake, but I returned it. The crank I installed came off a 130202 as advertised. The cam is original and did not seem to have lobe wear (made sure to spin it a few times before putting the gear case back on.

As for the coil, and this goes for mike, if the compression test gives me good results, then I shall buy a new coil. I think it would be cheaper to rent a compression tester and get my money back, rather than buying a spark tester, then finding out it is compression and not being able to get my money back. Do you guys know if a tester that I can use at Autozone will fit in my plug hole?

Again, thanks for all the help, and if I ever step over the line and sound offensive, that is not the intention in the least.

-Thanks, Charlie.

Click to expand...

No, we are just trying to help you get it going. That is why I ask so many questions, because I would hate for you to waste any more money on this, as there is a whole lot of "unknown" territory...
I come across as an arse, because that has always been my internet style.. Half of the regulars here hate me, and they should......

But I always have enjoyed spending a lot of time trying to help folks out, and I try. I do not post, unless I am sure I am right.

Fish said:

No, we are just trying to help you get it going. That is why I ask so many questions, because I would hate for you to waste any more money on this, as there is a whole lot of "unknown" territory...
I come across as an arse, because that has always been my internet style.. Half of the regulars here hate me, and they should......

But I always have enjoyed spending a lot of time trying to help folks out, and I try. I do not post, unless I am sure I am right.

Click to expand...

And, I thank you for that. So we have it to two possibilities, the coil or compression. I'm slightly eager and anxious to see what the results are of the compression test. I just screw it in the hole and give the pull a few tugs right? Hopefully it'll give me sixty or above. I also have the feeling that whatever happened to this engine happened sometime after it was purchased originally. Very little carbon in the head tells me that it was cleaned a lot, or used very little.

-Thanks, Charlie.

I would take the spark plug with you so you can make sure it's the right size. Just twist the tester in, move to WOT and pull about five or six times.
P.S.- I don't hate Fish.

Okay, here is what I have found after doing some digging after I got off work. My engine is either one of two finalized model numbers. 130201-1610-01 or, 130201-1783-01. Now, I know it is one of these due to the fact that I looked through most of the models for 130201-to the middle of 130202. I narrowed it down because the two final 130201 models (the two listed here) DO NOT use points and condenser any longer. The model before 1610 does, and the first 130202 model uses points and condenser again. Why would they go back to points on a newer model? Also, the gas tank on mine was different than in both of those diagrams. If I go before those models, things start to change, if I go beyond them, things start to change. So I think I have narrowed it down. I havent been able to get a tester as of right this minute, but I was looking at new coils just in case, and according to the site, they only have them for 6 HP engines. Why is this? I will do some more searching too. Also, my engine had that ugly cylinder housing for the filter, and many models even most of the 130202 have it. I will still do some more searching to see if I can be 100% positive.

-Thanks, Charlie.

Naw, the 5 h.p. horizontal coils will all work fine, It would be great if we were neighbors, you could bring the damn thing by with a case of beer, and we could
figure it out soon enough. But over these forums, all of us are handicapped, which is why I may ask a lot of questions, as I cannot really see what you see,
and all I can do is ask questions, and trust that the info I get back is correct too.

So I have no idea if we have it down to anything yet.

I got 30 Lbs. to 35 Lbs. Low compression. What could possibly be the cause of this? Fish, mike? The only thing I have not went over are the valves. I made a video of the valves with the piston moving for you guys. I will put a link to it as soon as it is uploaded.

Do you guys think...that I put the lifters for the valves in backwards? As in I put the intake one for the exhaust and vice versa? Or would that even make a difference? I was watching a video on YouTube of a teardown and he made sure to point at that he marked them, intake and exhaust. Could this be causing my low compression problem?!

Now what were those six reasons again, just joking.
A leakdown tester would be ideal to help find the problem faster but I'm guessing you don't have one. So I would pull the head and first check the valves. When I had 30psi on this engine model it was from a stuck intake valve, a product of my own doing. I would make sure both valves are fully seating. Did you take the valves out earlier? I ask because there is usually a thicker, beefier spring on the exhaust valve which is not on the intake valve. The lifters(tappets) on my engine are identical according to part #.

Mikel1 said:

Now what were those six reasons again, just joking.
A leakdown tester would be ideal to help find the problem faster but I'm guessing you don't have one. So I would pull the head and first check the valves. When I had 30psi on this engine model it was from a stuck intake valve, a product of my own doing. I would make sure both valves are fully seating. Did you take the valves out earlier? I ask because there is usually a thicker, beefier spring on the exhaust valve which is not on the intake valve. I will take a look at the lifters in the manual.

Click to expand...

Well, I will admit that I felt like an idiot when I seen the needle didnt even go above thirty five. I also felt my heart sink because that could mean the cylinder is bad. And that means R.I.P. for me. I took a video of the valves and piston for your enjoyment, hehe. I will have it posted here when it is uploaded. I did not take the valves out, only the tappets, or push rods, which is why I was concerned that I may have put them backwards. I know the shop has leak tester, but I would probably not be able to use it for myself. I will be back as soon as the video is done.

-Thanks, Charlie.

It sounds like your next step would be to check your valve clearances, since it sounds like you haven't. I just assumed that you had. If you don't have
the valves closing fully, your compression will just go out the open valve.

Fish said:

It sounds like your next step would be to check your valve clearances, since it sounds like you haven't. I just assumed that you had. If you don't have
the valves closing fully, your compression will just go out the open valve.

Click to expand...

That is through the breather box right? The PCV system pretty much, right? Can you give me instructions on how to do that with this engine? I guess I will need to purchase a set of feeler gauges then?

-Thanks, Charlie.

Mikel1 said:

Now what were those six reasons again, just joking.
A leakdown tester would be ideal to help find the problem faster but I'm guessing you don't have one. So I would pull the head and first check the valves. When I had 30psi on this engine model it was from a stuck intake valve, a product of my own doing. I would make sure both valves are fully seating. Did you take the valves out earlier? I ask because there is usually a thicker, beefier spring on the exhaust valve which is not on the intake valve. The lifters(tappets) on my engine are identical according to part #.

Click to expand...

Here goes the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkgGH0IwZx4&list=UUwqNMVMMsbcApQC8puuuzEg

ProTechCharlie said:

That is through the breather box right? The PCV system pretty much, right? Can you give me instructions on how to do that with this engine? I guess I will need to purchase a set of feeler gauges then?

-Thanks, Charlie.

Click to expand...

Yes, you need to get some feeler gauges, you will use them all of the time.

Ok, go back to the very first scene of your latest video, where the piston is at tdc and both valves are down.

With everything in that position, take your thumb and try to rotate each valve. If you can, then that is a major problem.

Also, it looked like you needed a tool to rotate the engine with the head off, is that true???? The thing should rotate like greased lightening.

That exhaust valve looks like it isn't closing all of the way.

Fish said:

Ok, go back to the very first scene of your latest video, where the piston is at tdc and both valves are down.

With everything in that position, take your thumb and try to rotate each valve. If you can, then that is a major problem.

Also, it looked like you needed a tool to rotate the engine with the head off, is that true???? The thing should rotate like greased lightening.

Click to expand...

Yes sir. Very much needed a screwdriver in between the fins. Is that a problem? I tightened the connecting rod bolts to right before the point where they would not move anymore. Also, there was some horizontal play in the crankshaft when I put it all back together.

As far as the valves moving, they both move, but I must apply much torque. I would say that to get the exhuast one to move, it hurt my thumb and it turned red. For the intake, I had to use the palm of my hand and after the few moves, my thumb was able to move. You say the exhaust valve doesnt look like it is closing, I will have to remove the spring and valve grind it? Then compress the spring? Can I do that with a pair of need-nose pliers, or do I need to get a tool when I get the gauges? Or, is it a possibility that the rod is bent? And how did my cylinder look? Enough to keep compression?

-Thanks, charlie.

I agree with Fish but I thought the intake valve wasn't fully seating. He is right you should easily be able to move the flywheel by hand. Your going to have to have a valve spring compressor to put the spring and retainer back in, do not get the ohv spring compressor for this engine.

Fish said:

It sounds like your next step would be to check your valve clearances, since it sounds like you haven't. I just assumed that you had. If you don't have
the valves closing fully, your compression will just go out the open valve.

Click to expand...

Here is the video Fish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkgGH0IwZx4&list=UUwqNMVMMsbcApQC8puuuzEg

Mikel1 said:

I agree with Fish but I thought the intake valve wasn't fully seating. He is right you should easily be able to move the flywheel by hand. Your going to have to have a valve spring compressor to put the spring and retainer back in, do not get the ohv spring compressor for this engine.

Click to expand...

What are some explanations for the flywheel? And would this add to the situation? Also, what do I need to go ahead and do at this point? And, I see the Autozone has a valve spring compressor. Do you think it would fit my needs? I ask because when I rented a ring compressor from them, it just so happened that I needed the special ring compressor, theirs was too big. I guess while I am there, I will go ahead and keep the compression tester until we get this sorted out, and then I will buy Valve compound, and feeler gauges, and the suction cup handle thing (I forget the name, valve seater? The technical name escapes me right now...ugh.).

-Thanks, Charlie.

I think I need to pack up my truck and come down there. I hope you are near the beach, I'll just sit there and drink beer and look at bikinis....


Now, seriously, if you have to use a screwdriver to rotate the flywheel with the engine torn down to that point, you have a serious problem.

We need to stop here and focus, and stop wasting all of this time. That flywheel should spin like a top. I think you might need to step back, and buy a decent engine.....

He is right. With it already that difficult to turn even if we got it running, I have a feeling it will be short lived. Meaning internally something is going to give. I would address this problem first.

Fish said:

I think I need to pack up my truck and come down there. I hope you are near the beach, I'll just sit there and drink beer and look at bikinis....


Now, seriously, if you have to use a screwdriver to rotate the flywheel with the engine torn down to that point, you have a serious problem.

We need to stop here and focus, and stop wasting all of this time. That flywheel should spin like a top. I think you might need to step back, and buy a decent engine.....

Click to expand...

Well, the beaches here are full of blokes this time of year.
I took off the crank case cover, and the flywheel, and still could not move the shaft by hand. Just do not give up on me yet. I took a video of the interior of the engine, if that would help diagnose the problem. I may have put the piston facing the wrong way (I did not think it mattered which side faced you and which did not. I think the reason for not being able to turn it is the other side of the engine (the hole) or the cam. But I was able to spin the cam by hand before. And, that shaft has that horizontal play I was talking about.

Mikel1 said:

He is right. With it already that difficult to turn even if we got it running, I have a feeling it will be short lived. Meaning internally something is going to give. I would address this problem first.

Click to expand...

I think it is the permanent side of the engine bore hole that is making it difficult, the connecting rod, or the cam. And I'm not completely sure on how to diagnose any three of those.

This is from manualThis is after connecting rod is torqued to 100inch lbs.) Rotate crankshaft at least two complete revolutions to be sure connecting rod and crankshaft turn freely and connecting rod does not interfere with cylinder or cam gear.
NOTE:If connecting rod interferes with cylinder or cam gear, rod is installed incorrectly or cam gear is out of time. Verify correct timing and connecting rod installation before proceeding.

Mikel1 said:

This is from manualThis is after connecting rod is torqued to 100inch lbs.) Rotate crankshaft at least two complete revolutions to be sure connecting rod and crankshaft turn freely and connecting rod does not interfere with cylinder or cam gear.
NOTE:If connecting rod interferes with cylinder or cam gear, rod is installed incorrectly or cam gear is out of time. Verify correct timing and connecting rod installation before proceeding.

Click to expand...

Okay, I checked it out, it is the new piston rings. They are fairly new, so they are making it slightly difficult for the shaft to turn easily. It is no longer a problem. I did not put everything back together, but the cam and the tappets and the shaft gear are all next to it, ready to be installed. Here is a little story though. When I removed the crank case cover, the crank and cam were aligned, I did some moving of the shaft and block, and it popped out of time. The dots were not lined up. Odd huh? Anyways, I have to work tommorow, but if we can get a list of stuff I need to pick up, I will stop and get it for the valves. I can just go ahead and grind them both, then you guys can give me info on the springs and such. Will I have to have to accsess the internals of the engine again to reseat them? Or just get to the PCV box? Also, judging by the video, how did my cylinder walls look? Okay for compression?

-Thanks, Charlie.

If everything is good now then you can close it back up. Yes you are going to need to access the valve chamber if for no other reason than checking the clearances. So where exactly are we at on the valves?

Mikel1 said:

If everything is good now then you can close it back up. Yes you are going to need to access the valve chamber if for no other reason than checking the clearances. So where exactly are we at on the valves?

Click to expand...

Yes. Still somewhat difficult to turn, but since that is the cause, it is fine. Well, you and fish said that you both think each one of my valves are not sitting. So, why not do both? I can get the compressor from autozone, grinding compound, and the lapper suction cup. I do think this is all I need? And instructions. How and what to set them at. I didn't know if you answered the question, I'm not trying to be pushy, so if I sound that way, it's not intended. But, you do think my cylinder wall checks out? It's just worries me a bit that if the valve job doesn't do it, it's that.

-Thanks, Charlie.

Okay I thought maybe you had confirmed that one of them wasn't seating fully. Easy way to tell is to put on tdc compression stroke and pour some water on top of valve & seat. If it can't hold water then it can't hold compression.
Intake- .005-.007
Exhaust- .009-.011
There are plenty of videos on youtube for doing valves.
From what I can tell cylinder looks okay but you can judge it better than we can.

Mikel1 said:

Okay I thought maybe you had confirmed that one of them wasn't seating fully. Easy way to tell is to put on tdc compression stroke and pour some water on top of valve & seat. If it can't hold water then it can't hold compression.
Intake- .005-.007
Exhaust- .009-.011
There are plenty of videos on youtube for doing valves.
From what I can tell cylinder looks okay but you can judge it better than we can.

Click to expand...

No, I can't tell honestly. It's the angle and stuff. Now, my instructions are to open the breather, then go ahead and take my compressor and compress the springs and get them detached from the rod? Do I just leave the valves seated and compress the spring and pull it out? I know it has a lock hole where one side is skinnier than the other, allowing a lock. Then after they are out, I grind them until when? There really aren't any pits on either of them. Maybe one or two at most.

I would check the valve clearances first. This will let you know where to start at on lapping or grinding to do. You are trying to take off as little material to get the job done while keeping valve clearance intact.
Compress the valve spring & retainer then get the retainer off the valve stem. Then pull valve straight up and pull spring & retainer out of valve chamber.

I don't see a link that you talked about.

The next thing, after reading all of this, is for you to check your piston ring end gap.

Fish said:

I don't see a link that you talked about.

The next thing, after reading all of this, is for you to check your piston ring end gap.

Click to expand...

It's such a pain to install them. If the valves don't work, and honing is required, I'm calling in the dogs and putting out the fire on this one.

I do have one question for you both. I have another engine with much carbon on the top of the flathead, piston, and around the valves. Since we are talking about cylinder condition, should I clean the carbon out? And if so, how do I clean it without pieces of carbon getting between the piston and the cylinder wall?

I will do the valves tomorrow. Hopefully, I will test the compression and it will give me sixty or above.
-Thanks, Charlie.

Mikel1 said:

Okay I thought maybe you had confirmed that one of them wasn't seating fully. Easy way to tell is to put on tdc compression stroke and pour some water on top of valve & seat. If it can't hold water then it can't hold compression.
Intake- .005-.007
Exhaust- .009-.011
There are plenty of videos on youtube for doing valves.
From what I can tell cylinder looks okay but you can judge it better than we can.

Click to expand...

Well, they gave me an overhead compressor to rent, I did not notice until it was too late, but I do get my money back on it, so I have that. I checked the valve and tappet clearance and, they both check fine. I put water over the valves and it seems to not leak at all. So, maybe it is not the valves, but I will go tonight and see if I can get to those valves with a pair of needle nose pliers. I could possibly do the valve job tonight and see what the compression stands at. I got the lapping tool and the compound, waiting to be used. Let me know what you think.

-Thanks, Charlie.

No, your needing to use a screwdriver to rotate the crank/piston, that is likely "THE" problem, as all is not well in your FrankenBriggs world!!!!

It has absolutely nothing to do with the valves at all. It might if the head was still on with the plug in.

You have a major problem. If you were to get it to start, it might last 40 seconds!!!!

With the head off, the engine not attached to anything, that flywheel should spin easily/rapidly....If you have to employ the help of a screwdriver, you got
trouble. Did you install oversize rings? Rod?

Fish said:

No, your needing to use a screwdriver to rotate the crank/piston, that is likely "THE" problem, as all is not well in your FrankenBriggs world!!!!

It has absolutely nothing to do with the valves at all. It might if the head was still on with the plug in.

You have a major problem. If you were to get it to start, it might last 40 seconds!!!!

With the head off, the engine not attached to anything, that flywheel should spin easily/rapidly....If you have to employ the help of a screwdriver, you got
trouble. Did you install oversize rings? Rod?

Click to expand...

Lol, brother, calm down. I said I got it fixed! It turned with my hand now. I think it was the play that I had in the shaft. It's no longer a problem. No, I did not need a new rod, and I used genuine OEM rings :399067. I pretty much only use genuine parts.

Sorry, describe again how you got it fixed? What was the problem?

Fish said:

Sorry, describe again how you got it fixed? What was the problem?

Click to expand...

I just dissembled everything down to the bore, then put everything together again. It turns easier now. I just really think it was the play I had, so I put it in the middle (connecting rod) and tightened it down. At this point it's okay now. But I ran another compression test and I still have low compression thirty maxed out. Like I said, nothing leaked through the valves, that water sat there for an hour.

Fish said:

I should have picked up on it a long time ago. this whole forum is about 1/2 nuts....... They troll the net asking for advice..... After jumping through
30 hoops. Well, I feel used....

Click to expand...

Dude, if I were a troll, why would I make a video with the engine? Better yet, you can look me up in Facebook, then I can take a photo of me holding the engine next to my face with a time stamp and a three legged dog in the frame. I mean, if you don't want to help anymore, that's fine. But if it'll make you feel better, search me on Facebook, then hit me with a PM saying which profile you found and I will confirm it, then I'll take a photo of me with the engine. You can look me up, I'm on several other forums, for BMW's, (which I work for and on) Toyota (which I drive) and other small engines (which I use and play with). I have no real reason just to tell two people for a few days. It'd be a waste of my time, which I hate doing. I seriously have no reason to even be a troll. I just want this pos engine to run.

ProTechCharlie said:

Well, they gave me an overhead compressor to rent, I did not notice until it was too late, but I do get my money back on it, so I have that. I checked the valve and tappet clearance and, they both check fine. I put water over the valves and it seems to not leak at all. So, maybe it is not the valves, but I will go tonight and see if I can get to those valves with a pair of needle nose pliers. I could possibly do the valve job tonight and see what the compression stands at. I got the lapping tool and the compound, waiting to be used. Let me know what you think.

-Thanks, Charlie.

Click to expand...

I'm leaning towards not a valve problem with the info now given. I did think the intake valve wasn't fully seating from what I could tell on the video.
You may be able to get the valve spring retainer to unlock without the valve tool, I've done it before on this model. Your going to need the valve compressor to put them back in.
Did you check the ring end gaps like Fish suggested earlier?

Mikel1 said:

I'm leaning towards not a valve problem with the info now given. I did think the intake valve wasn't fully seating from what I could tell on the video.
You may be able to get the valve spring retainer to unlock without the valve tool, I've done it before on this model. Your going to need the valve compressor to put them back in.
Did you check the ring end gaps like Fish suggested earlier?

Click to expand...

No sir. I did take an old ring that came off of the engine, and I placed both pieces on top of the piston (it had broke when I took it off) and got about 10' maximum. That was about a quarter inch down in the cylinder from when I was checking clearance. I'm pretty sure that if honing is required, I'm just going to scrap it. We were taught that in school, but since it was automobiles, over a small block, it's different. If we had something like this at the dealership, we would just get a new engine at that point, honing doesn't ensure long life. I actually ran a compression test after I got the engine put back together and got only 25-27 PSI. Oh well. :frown:

ProTechCharlie said:

Anyone else have any other suggestions? I've pretty much covered every possibility I could find.

Click to expand...

Sounds like a time for a new engine. I would rebuild it, HONE the cylinder, make sure to put NEW rings on and close it up and watch the baby run like new money. BUT, since our school says NO to HONING (makes no sense whatsofrigginever) then I would go get a new engine and be done with the headache.

ProTechCharlie said:

I was using the drill (15/16) to start my engine. However, once I got it started, the extension on the end of the socket spun out of orbit and broke the crankshaft just past the starter clutch. My issue before is that the pull start would and does not want to start the engine. The drill however, be it gas or ESF would make it start. My 5HP uses the magnet on the flywheel to make a spark, not the points and condenser. Now, I have finally got everything back together, new crankshaft, piston rings, and crank case gasket, but my socket does not fit the new starter clutch. It barely catches, then slips. I think once before the crankshaft broke I sprayed ESF in the intake and the pull start was able to crank it. I cant remember that well honestly. But, now with everything installed, the pull start gets to a point where it wants to start the engine, but it just wont. Like, I hear the compression, but it just doesnt seem like the engine will make a full revolution on its own. :thumbdown::frown: Any suggestions? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

-Thanks, charlie

Click to expand...

Vice grip the plug to a flat metal surface. Leave the plug wire attached to the plug, and pull the starter. If you get a strong blue spark, your problem is gas. If not, try sandpapering the rust off the flywheel and resetting the gap between the flywheel and the pickup. You might try a hotter plug or check the plug wire. Cleaning the plug might help, too. Spark, gas, and air in the right proportions and any small engine should start and run. Good luck, Friend. Gearjammer