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Buy American

May 14, 2011#1

BKBrown

A couple sources for American Made products :thumbsup:

Made in the USA Products Directory

How Americans Can Buy American

May 14, 2011#2

Sprinkler Buddy

:thumbsup::thumbsup: Just realized you posted the above, I couldn't delete the thread so I deleted the message on my Buy American post. Didn't mean to steal your thunder!:laughing:

May 14, 2011#3

BKBrown

Not my thunder, if everyone would try to buy AMERICAN,
when it is possible,
it would help our economy instead of another country. :thumbsup:

May 14, 2011#4

poncho62

This whole "Buy American" debate sort of makes me laugh.......Americans invented the capitalist system.....The person who makes the best product for the best price is going to sell the most and therefore become the richest....It used to be called the American way.......

Now, we have to remind the masses to buy American?...Why is this so?......American products should be able to stand on their own merits.....If they cant, the people are not going to buy them....we should need no reminder.....Up to you folks.....Thats the American way

Of course, now someone will come back that the Chinese just steal all the American ideas and duplicate them....Well, if thats the case, they should be brought up on charges or the American government should not allow them to be imported......That aint gonna happen, so I guess its alright.......

I remember when I was a kid, there was the same regard for Japanese junk....now they make some of the best products in the world....see a trend?

Point is, American companies need to adapt to the times..........If they dont they are screwed,,,,,all the rah rah, buy American talk isnt going to do a thing.

May 14, 2011#5

BKBrown

poncho62
I see you are from Canada. Your opinion is your opinion and you have a right to express it.
Part of the reason American companies have gone out of business is because of the policies that people in our government (who are supposed to represent us) have given unfair advantage to foreign businesses and taxed some of our own out of business.
If we (as Americans) can help some of our own businesses stay in business and compete, then I see nothing wrong with making that attempt.

May 14, 2011#6

Sprinkler Buddy

I feel one of the main problems is that to many American companys have had their products made overseas because they could make a buck or two more in doing so in the past.

Now that so many foreign countrys own such a large piece of the American pie, that isn't as true as it once was. They don't have to do things as cheap because now they own such a large interest here in America. We have no one to blame but ourselves and they have been laughing all the way to the bank for many years now.

How do we change this? American companys must start having their products made right here in the USA. Yeah, it will cost us a little but it will cost us all a whole lot more in the future if we as manufactures don't. I did my part as a manufacture, I challange all other American companys to follow suit.

An American company doesn't mean "American Made" but it SHOULD!

I'll get off my Soap Box and I'll try hard not to get back on it with the comments I'm sure that are to follow this post. "Just my 2 cent"

May 14, 2011#7

RobertBrown

Now that so many foreign countrys own such a large piece of the American pie, that isn't as true as it once was. They don't have to do things as cheap because now they own such a large interest here in America. We have no one to blame but ourselves and they have been laughing all the way to the bank for many years now.

Could not agree more with this. Most of the parts we use in our "American Made" cars come from mexico or some other foreign country that has no concerns about thier workers or thier environment. This is truly un-american activity.
UH-OH!
I think it's getting political in here

I'm done

May 14, 2011#8

mystreba

Let the games begin! (and maintain a clear path to the exits) Please all, let's keep it civil. These are, after all, only opinions :wink:

I support anyone's decision to purchase only American products, but overall I tend to agree with Poncho. First, I don't believe that "Buy American" is going to save a company that otherwise might be headed for failure. I'm interested to hear what specific policies are driving American companies into the abyss. And although our corporate tax rates are nearly the highest in the world, American companies leverage the labyrinth of subsidies, loopholes, incentives and tax breaks to end up on par with most other exporting nations. In fact, the amount that US corporations pay in taxes, as a percentage of GDP, is actually lower than most other developed countries. Sure, the tax code is an unmitigated disaster, but hardly crippling for US companies.

Second, if American companies make high-quality products at reasonable prices, they can expect consumers around the world to want them. Other countries, likewise.

Third, if other countries took the same isolationist approach, it would have bad consequences for the American consumer and the American economy. I buy the best product my money can buy (lawn tractors notwithstanding

) - if the best product is not American, then the American manufacturers have only themselves to blame. That's the free market.

My parents owned Ford vehicles exclusively through the 70's and 80's. They were - every last one of them - complete pieces of junk. I own a newer Ford truck, which is an exponential improvement in quality over those old cars. I believe that, were it not for the competition of cheaper and higher-quality foreign cars, Ford Motor Company would still be cranking out pieces of junk.

The quality of Japanese cars is due largely to ideas from American W E Deming (as are Ford's latent improvements in quality). So why didn't Deming direct his efforts at improving American manufacturing? Because the American manufacturers didn't invite him - the Japanese manufacturers did.

Improve, adapt or die.

poncho62 said:
the Chinese just steal all the American ideas and duplicate them....

Maybe they're just getting even with the West for stealing so many of theirs - like the printing press

Sprinkler Buddy said:
Now that so many foreign countrys own such a large piece of the American pie, that isn't as true as it once was.

I agree - it's almost impossible to determine what's really "Made in the USA" anymore anyway. Partly because of foreign investments, but also because there is so much tax incentive for American companies to manufacture their parts overseas - creating jobs overseas.

I say - fix the tax code and let the free market do its thing.
Just my opinion :wink:

May 14, 2011#9

mystreba

RobertBrown said:
Could not agree more with this. Most of the parts we use in our "American Made" cars come from mexico or some other foreign country that has no concerns about thier workers or thier environment. This is truly un-american activity.
UH-OH!
I think it's getting political in here
I'm done

Yes! American manufacturers are sourcing many of their parts from other countries. They want the cheapest parts in order to increase profits. Then they implore us to "Buy American" and load their television ads with misty-eyed patriotic nonsense.

May 14, 2011#10

BKBrown

You can all do what is best for you, but for me, when I can find a quality product that is actually made in the USA and it does not cost a great deal more, I will support the company that has chosen to hire American workers and keep their business in this country. It is not always possible to find those products, but I do my best.

Each of you can do what works for you.

May 14, 2011#11

RobertBrown

Yes! American manufacturers are sourcing many of their parts from other countries. They want the cheapest parts in order to increase profits. Then they implore us to "Buy American" and load their television ads with misty-eyed patriotic nonsense.

could not agree more...
I am incensed by the advertising tactics used in this country, time and time again. But, that is another post. Can you imagine what the advertising buget is for Geico! and the profits!? .....trying to make you believe that your car insurance and it's policy is not worth reading by oversimplifying...., "don't worry about it" "just pay the premium":mad

when I can find a quality product that is actually made in the USA and it does not cost a great deal more, I will support the company that has chosen to hire American workers and keep their business in this country. It is not always possible to find those products, but I do my best.

I commend you for this....
Now I'm done....really!....done!

May 14, 2011#12

mystreba

BKBrown said:
I will support the company that has chosen to hire American workers and keep their business in this country. It is not always possible to find those products, but I do my best.

Nothin' wrong with that.

May 14, 2011#13

twall

poncho62 said:
This whole "Buy American" debate sort of makes me laugh.......Americans invented the capitalist system.....The person who makes the best product for the best price is going to sell the most and therefore become the richest....It used to be called the American way.......

Now, we have to remind the masses to buy American?...Why is this so?......American products should be able to stand on their own merits.....If they cant, the people are not going to buy them....we should need no reminder.....Up to you folks.....Thats the American way

Of course, now someone will come back that the Chinese just steal all the American ideas and duplicate them....Well, if thats the case, they should be brought up on charges or the American government should not allow them to be imported......That aint gonna happen, so I guess its alright.......

I remember when I was a kid, there was the same regard for Japanese junk....now they make some of the best products in the world....see a trend?

Point is, American companies need to adapt to the times..........If they dont they are screwed,,,,,all the rah rah, buy American talk isnt going to do a thing.

I agree with you 100%. We made the system, and it was fine when we were the only real player....now that the Japanese, and Chinese, and Koreans, and Mexicans, and everyone else is kicking our butts daily, we seem to think its a crime they can beat us at our own system. True, the Chinese will duplicate anything, regardless of patents. But, that is because no one seems to be ENFORCING those patents, or boycotting countries that disregard them.

I, as an American, get annoyed by the cheerleading too. All the flag-waving and rah rah won't change that our society is based on a $50,000/yr per person average (which I make about HALF of that). Unions have a lot to do with that. The Chinese exist on a HELUVA lot less than that. Therefore, they are more competitive. We had a civil war based supposedly on slavery, but we can't seem to buy enough from the slave-labor countries (political prisoners, or otherwise), these days. So, did we really care through the years? Or, did just ONE generation really care about it?

It's sad we can't compete in our own capitalistic system. I'm all for tariffs. But, that's only our 'cheating' to compete with their 'cheating'.......OY! Will it EVER stop? Nope.

May 14, 2011#14

F

fastback

I buy American whenever I don't buy Chineese:confused2: Seriously, I alway try to buy American but the problem now is the cost. I have a number of old american made tools such as Brigdgeport, Southbend lathe, Delta tablesaw, Delta shaper & lathe. The list goes on and on but to buy new American made is out of my reach. I wonder if there is anyway back or is it too late.

Yes, the stuff from Japan was some of the worst stuff you could buy back in the early 50"s. I remember that wind up toys were lucky to last 15 minutes. Now somee of the best quality stuff comes from Japan.

May 14, 2011#15

twall

Well, in our machine shop, we use Doosan (Korean) CNC lathes, and are replacing the Hadrdinge (US made just a few hours away) CNC lathes with them. For the same $125,000 - we can get a dual-spindle machine compared to the US machine's single-spindle. They hold up just as well, too. I run them.

Mitutoyo measuring equipment is quickly eclipsing Brown&Sharpe and Starrett as the standard for measurement - and they are Japanese. Why? COST, and the fact that the Asian stuff is as good/better than the American stuff made by union employees, I'm sorry to say. I truly am SORRY to say......:frown:

You can't chant "buy American - it costs more, but is better" any more at all. The Asians have our number, and can produce what we do with the same quality at one-tenth the price. To disagree with this is to bury your head in the sand. This is an impossible situation we are in. Why? because we no longer require CRAFTSMEN, just button-pushing machine babysitters, which can be done by anyone, myself included. This began in the 80's with computerized robotic machinery that could give great, consistent results without the craftsmen. Thanks to the unquechable thirst for profits. That's it.

So, we can now drown in it. The owners won't........but we craftsmen will. We are no longer needed in a 'educated' society of button-pushing drones. It's just plain sad, and it is irreversable.

May 14, 2011#16

BKBrown

I'm sure there are many examples of things that are made better for less outside the US, but I'll give you a few examples of things I have found that (for me) are better and worth any extra cost.
Diamond Gusset Jeans :thumbsup:
Bully Tools :thumbsup:
Patriot Kitchen Utensils :thumbsup:
VENTRAC :thumbsup: find another machine that will do what this will for less ???
There are a number of Dog Foods and Treats made in USA with better ingredients and don't cost more than "made in ?????"

There ARE things out there that you can find that are better and worth a little extra cost.

May 14, 2011#17

twall

mystreba said:
.....I say - fix the tax code and let the free market do its thing.
Just my opinion :wink:

That, indeed is simplistic tea-party rhetoric.

The reason they [American compaies] go overseas is NOT primarily Taxes; nor is it because of wages. It is expenditures like OSHA regulation compliance, EPA compliance, and Union pension and healthcare packages that make overseas business so welcoming. A few business owners near (but not AT) the top would like to pay less in taxes, and their boo hoos are what makes the nightly news. Most TRULY huge corporatons pay less in taxes (ALL TAXES) than an induvidual working for them pays in federal, state, and school taxes. ONE PERSON. What saves them the billions is not having to repaint every single walkway line, because OSHA saw a chip on a guardrail. Or being able to dump what they want, where they want. Or giving no safety protection, no health insurance, and no protections whatsoever to their workers. THAT is why they flock to a TRULY "free" place to do their business. All profit, no responsibility.

I THINK I don't support China's policies when it comes to the environment, their workers rights, or Safety for ANYTHING. However, if I can get a dial test indicator from the USA for $170, or one of very comparable quality for $30? Well, making under $35k a year - you tell me which makes more sense. So, in essence, I AM supporting China. If our country saw the inequities between us, and tariffed the heck outa Chinese goods to bring them in line with US goods? Well, I'd be out a dial test indicator altogether, now wouldn't I? :wink:

May 14, 2011#18

twall

BKBrown said:
I'm sure there are many examples of things that are made better for less outside the US, but I'll give you a few examples of things I have found that (for me) are better and worth any extra cost.

Let's break that list down:

Diamond Gusset Jeans :thumbsup:

My Dickies are fine with me......:wink: Dunno where THEY are made.....

Bully Tools :thumbsup:

Most tools, even made in India, are fine with my needs, since I use them so little, then Matco tops my list, but I am not sure of all THEIR origins, either.

Patriot Kitchen Utensils :thumbsup:

I have faberware stuff that's 10 years old, and still in daily use.....

VENTRAC :thumbsup: find another machine that will do what this will for less ???

I WILL give you that one...:wink: :thumbsup:

There are a number of Dog Foods and Treats made in USA with better ingredients and don't cost more than "made in ?????"

I don't have a dog, nor will I EVER.......

There ARE things out there that you can find that are better and worth a little extra cost.

Yes, but they are few and far between that can TRULY justify the added cost to my meager paycheck.....sorry.

May 14, 2011#19

BKBrown

Notice I said it works for me - I don't expect anyone to live beyond their means just to buy American.

Those that can afford it and find something that will work for them will make a difference - maybe a small difference, but a difference. :smile:

May 14, 2011#20

twall

BKBrown said:
Notice I said it works for me - I don't expect anyone to live beyond their means just to buy American.

Those that can afford it and find something that will work for them will make a difference - maybe a small difference, but a difference. :smile:

Believe me, BK, if I got paid the $50k/yr "average", I would insist on nothing less than all-American goods, I truly would. Even in the dial test indicator example above, if the difference was $50 USA product, $30 China - I'd go American all the way. But almost 6 TIMES the price? That is insane.

Another example: Blake manufacturing offers a coaxial indicator (for centering a mill) for $300. I bought one for $50 on ebay, brand new from a seller of Chinese goods. That INCLUDED the shipping! That is again 6 times the price for an American good. I would have loved to get the Blake.....but I can't.......and that coax indicator is a real time-saver in setup! I can do it with an indicator, but it takes awhile - whereas the coax takes literally seconds!

Being a shop teacher, you may be familiar with the Blake Coax.

May 15, 2011#21

BKBrown

Nope - All we ever had for a mill was a small table top CNC mill and basically set zero at a point on the material. It was capable of doing x,y,z on a simple program and that had severe limitations.
I understand the need to make decisions based on available $ -- Been There, Done That --- and STILL Do - now it is just easier than it has been in the past.

twall said:
Being a shop teacher, you may be familiar with the Blake Coax.

May 15, 2011#22

O

Oddball

Boy, I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here I'm sure, but I''ll never be accused of being PC or unopinionated. High taxation, gov't regulations and labor unions are all to blame for the decline of American productivity and quality of goods. Companies take jobs and business overseas to avoid taxation and in some cases regualtions and unions. I cannot blame them for that. They're in business to make money, not give their products away or pay exhorbitant wages and taxes for the "privelege" of making their products here. I buy American when the product I want just happens to be made here, but I don't go out of my way to buy American. I purposely will not buy a product that's touted as being "Proudly Union Made" or some such nonsense. All that means to me is I'm getting a product that costs way more than it should because a union negotiated a $50K/year salary for some needle threader or button pusher that should be making minimum wage.

May 15, 2011#23

BKBrown

No ruffled feathers here, I agree. Unions did, at one time serve their purpose in not allowing workers to be exploited, It has now gone way past that and we have "union bosses and organizers" that are socialist and attempting to make unions "world wide" so thay can live off the backs of the companies and workers. There are some states that are "right to work" states and union membership is voluntary. The companies that have been able to stay and keep American workers are more likely to be in more business friendly states and right to work states. I ry to support those companies (not "Union Shops") !

Oddball said:
Boy, I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here I'm sure, but I''ll never be accused of being PC or unopinionated. High taxation, gov't regulations and labor unions are all to blame for the decline of American productivity and quality of goods. Companies take jobs and business overseas to avoid taxation and in some cases regualtions and unions. I cannot blame them for that. They're in business to make money, not give their products away or pay exhorbitant wages and taxes for the "privelege" of making their products here. I buy American when the product I want just happens to be made here, but I don't go out of my way to buy American. I purposely will not buy a product that's touted as being "Proudly Union Made" or some such nonsense. All that means to me is I'm getting a product that costs way more than it should because a union negotiated a $50K/year salary for some needle threader or button pusher that should be making minimum wage.

May 15, 2011#24

mystreba

twall said:
That, indeed is simplistic tea-party rhetoric.

Just for the record, I don't give a rat's bandersnatch about the tea-party. So, let's move beyond the labels.

I made two points about the tax code. First, in response to the OP's comment that taxes were killing US corporations, I countered that they are not - because of all the loopholes that can be exploited. You apparently agree with this, since you backed it up:

Most TRULY huge corporatons pay less in taxes (ALL TAXES) than an induvidual working for them pays in federal, state, and school taxes. ONE PERSON.

My second point was that taxes were a factor in the migration of jobs overseas. You agreed with that as well (directly, and indirectly - since one of the reasons truly huge corporations pay so little in taxes is because of their offshore operations).

In terms of my other point about letting the free market do it's thing, you apparently agree with that as well:

It's sad we can't compete in our own capitalistic system. I'm all for tariffs. But, that's only our 'cheating' to compete with their 'cheating'.......OY!

Why do you argue with - and throw labels at - someone that you apparently agree with.:confused2:

Look, you raise a good point about OSHA, but then you overreach by stating it is the PRIMARY reason for shipping operations offshore. THAT is oversimplifying. If OSHA regs cost 35% of gross income (not just 35% of operating costs), I could believe it. But that would be impossible, since those costs can be directly written-off against income tax!

Look, OSHA is a factor, certainly. Real wages (including benefits like health care) are a factor as well. As are taxes...

Open a plant in Pittsburg, pay 35% federal tax on gross income.
Open a plant in India, pay 0% federal tax on gross income.

I can park those profits offshore and pay no tax, yet I get to deduct the expenses immediately. I stand by my point - the corporate tax code needs fixing.

May 15, 2011#25

Jetblast

It would be easier to buy American if more American workers would settle for starvation wages, no benefits, and harsh work environments. Like Chinese workers do.

Labor unions came through necessity and although they do go too far at times, the general idea is a good one as far as I'm concerned. Any American who busts their ass to produce quality products is deserving of a decent lifestyle, including a good used car and a modest home for their family. Call me old fashioned. Workers need a platform against bottom-line competition or you get Triangle Shirt-Waist Factory fire stories, hordes of working poor, or the lifestyle of virtually any factory worker living in a third world country where the vast majority of our stuff is made. Seems crazy to vilify the American union worker trying to avoid getting a raw deal, while ignoring the fact that those actually making our products are jumping out of factory windows in China because their lives suck so hard. (See "Foxconn Factory".)

Interesting that one side of the aisle looks at what unions have accomplished and says, "I don't have that, but everyone should", while the other side says, "I don't have that, so let's take it away from those S.O.B.s."

The "global economy" sounded OK when the moneyed presented the idea, but it isn't lifting the world to American standards. Its dragging America down to third-world standards. For decades it didn't matter because our economic strength was based on shifting money around using hype and scientific notation, but that's not looking as good as it once did. Maybe some protectionism is in order now.

I like buying American when I can, but usually the choice was already made for me in a board room. I'm not going out of my way to look for a "Made In USA" cell phone, because the problem is far bigger than anything my purchasing power can resolve. Its ironic that those who champion free trade and lack of regulation to a high degree, are also the most likely to say "Buy American" without recognizing that the latter works against the former.

May 15, 2011#26

twall

I said that, mystreba, because that is the drum the Tea party (and the right wing as a whole) has been beating nonstop - and although it IS a part of it, it is not the end-all and be-all of it.

Unions are a big part of the problem, as is state laws (and Federal, soon) requiring employers to provide health insurance. In NY this also includes the expensive 'mental health' portion of health insurance. The exodus of jobs from NY started a long time ago, back when times were supposed to be good. Our laws, unions, AND the tax code are all part of the problem. I think we need to take a good, hard look at EVERYTHING, not JUST the tax code.

But, the fine line here is how should it be fixed? To get the jobs back here, the companies that go elsewhere I think, should have to pay tarriffs to re-import the products into the US, as if they were NOT a US company. That's what tarrifs are for - to level the playing field. But, the field is so tilted, we need to find a way to make it so goods made in this country aren't so expensive. Otherwise, like I stated, nobody will be able to buy ANYTHING.

May 15, 2011#27

mystreba

Jetblast said:
It would be easier to buy American if more American workers would settle for starvation wages, no benefits, and harsh work environments. Like Chinese workers do.

That was very well said.

And a great way to tee-up your point, which I agree with. (well, except potentially for the part about how your cell phone purchase won't make a difference - but that would depend on how you meant it)

May 15, 2011#28

twall

@jetblast:

I do think there is call for a basic floor, but I don't think making non-union jobs essentially union jobs by law is the way to go. NY tried this, and the companies took their businesses (and jobs) elsewhere. Getting laws OFF the books is actually harder then getting them ON.

Furthermore, what is a 'decent lifestyle'? I see your examples - and that shouldn't require $50k a year to achieve. Retirement? Health insurance? These are also a big part of a salary - so $50k/yr PLUS another $15-20k in bennies? I think that's just a tad much......and makes the cost of American goods go up - requiring even MORE pay, on and on......

May 15, 2011#29

O

Oddball

Well, I may be getting too political here, so mods feel free to delete. But I've got two words that'll fix a good protion of the problems our country faces today.

Fair Tax

May 15, 2011#30

mystreba

Oddball said:
Well, I may be getting too political here, so mods feel free to delete. But I've got two words that'll fix a good protion of the problems our country faces today.

Fair Tax

It's not political unless you attach labels to it. But an explanation of what you consider to be "fair tax" - and which problems you think it will fix - would help. Otherwise, it sounds like political rhetoric (I made that mistake in an earlier post :ashamed

May 15, 2011#31

mystreba

twall said:
I said that, mystreba, because that is the drum the Tea party (and the right wing as a whole) has been beating nonstop - and although it IS a part of it, it is not the end-all and be-all of it.

Unions are a big part of the problem, as is state laws (and Federal, soon) requiring employers to provide health insurance. In NY this also includes the expensive 'mental health' portion of health insurance. The exodus of jobs from NY started a long time ago, back when times were supposed to be good. Our laws, unions, AND the tax code are all part of the problem. I think we need to take a good, hard look at EVERYTHING, not JUST the tax code.

But, the fine line here is how should it be fixed? To get the jobs back here, the companies that go elsewhere I think, should have to pay tarriffs to re-import the products into the US, as if they were NOT a US company. That's what tarrifs are for - to level the playing field. But, the field is so tilted, we need to find a way to make it so goods made in this country aren't so expensive. Otherwise, like I stated, nobody will be able to buy ANYTHING.

ok - I think I misunderstood you.

At any rate, I could agree with your last point, as part of the solution to the problem of US corps moving operations offshore. But it contradicts the other concern about making affordable products - such tarrifs would drive prices up.

I really have no fundamental problem with US companies choosing to set up operations globally. The problem, as I see it, is that we have actually provided incentives for them to do that. Instead, we should provide incentives for them to keep their operations (and all the related jobs) here.

In terms of unions, that's a whole other conversation - start a new thread? :biggrin: I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't necessarily agree either. It's a complicated topic.

In terms of health care, I know this was covered in another thread, but I look at it this way. We, as a country, must answer a fundamental moral question - should all citizens have access to health care? Every other developed nation has considered this question, and answered in the affirmative. If we also answer with a "Yes", then we need to decide how we'll do that. Hint - it's being done to varying degress of success in all other developed nations, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. And yes, unless we want a 100% government solution (Beveridge model - UK, VA), employers will have to do their part by raising wages or by paying in.

May 15, 2011#32

twall

Oddball said:
Well, I may be getting too political here, so mods feel free to delete. But I've got two words that'll fix a good protion of the problems our country faces today.

Fair Tax

Yes, it could be seen as rhetoric, but I wont MYSELF make the mistake of calling you names (sorry, mystreba :ashamed

.

The fair tax, from what I understand, is simmilar to the GST in Canada, kinda. It'd be a tax on all goods. That way, EVERYONE pays taxes, and the more you're able to spend, the more tax you pay.

It works good on paper, but unless it REPLACES WHOLLY the income tax, it'll just be another tax.

May 15, 2011#33

Jetblast

twall, the cost of American manufactured goods hasn't gone up in ages. Adjusted for inflation, they've gone down over the last 20-30 years. Way down. Great for consumers, but it's made for a tough manufacturing environment.

You may think 50K + benefits is more than a moderately skilled worker deserves, but is that the real deal? You have to look hard at what's actually being paid vs what makes the news. With many union jobs, the pay is not so great on the short end, but gets better in the long run with the idea that over an entire career you'll do OK. Unfortunately, what makes the news is almost always a skewed version leaning heavily toward the high-seniority end of the scale.

As far as insurance and retirement goes, as the American work force goes, so go the unions. Decades ago unions fought for and won livable work environments, insurance, and retirement benefits that private industry had to match in order to obtain and keep good workers. Now we're on the downside of a multiple decade long economic bubble where non-union jobs have degraded faster than union jobs, so unions have become a target. No need really, time will take care of it. Unions negotiate based upon what's going on around them, and if everything is crap they can only negotiate for crap.

May 15, 2011#34

O

Oddball

twall said:
The fair tax, from what I understand, is simmilar to the GST in Canada, kinda. It'd be a tax on all goods. That way, EVERYONE pays taxes, and the more you're able to spend, the more tax you pay.

It works good on paper, but unless it REPLACES WHOLLY the income tax, it'll just be another tax.

You are mostly correct, but its only a tax on NEW goods sold at the retail level. No tax on used goods. Also, it is designed to replace the federal income, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and Payroll taxes, I may have missed a few, on all businesses and individuals. The 16th Amendment (the one starting federal income taxes and the IRS) would have to be repealed before the Fair Tax could begin, and that's even called for by the Fair Tax. You'd bring home your ENTIRE paycheck, except whatever your state takes in taxes, unless your state adopts some form of the FT also. You'd only be taxed on what you spend, not what you earn. Corporations that have left the country because of high taxes would be eager to return and foriegn companies would be clamouring to come here and set up shop where they wouldn't have to pay taxes. You'd basically have to hide to keep from getting a job. There would be an econmic boom like this country has never seen.

May 15, 2011#35

Jetblast

Oddball said:
Well, I may be getting too political here, so mods feel free to delete. But I've got two words that'll fix a good protion of the problems our country faces today.

Fair Tax

I don't like it. If you're alive and functioning in society, you've entered into a social contract and have some obligations. Some more than others. Everyone who produces is part of the environment, an environment in which some thrive exponentially, but an environment we all helped to create and maintain.

If you weren't born in the right place, didn't have the right parents, and didn't get the right education, you're not going to do as well financially as those who did. Short end of the stick for most Americans. Donald Trump Jr.? Long end of the stick.

It takes a certain amount of annual income to get the basic necessities, and what we all consider a "normal" lifestyle. A vast number of Americans struggle for that and still fall short. On the other hand, a great number of Americans earn annual income so far beyond that, they need a financial team to keep track of it. Are they that good? They might tell you they are, but chances are they're just moderately talented people who got very, very lucky.

If you work hard, but were not blessed with great earning potential for whatever reason, giving 20% of your income to the common good is a hardship. If you make millions, 20% of your income means buying a Gulfstream G4 instead of a G5.

A progressive tax system is the "fair" tax, as far as I'm concerned. Those with Gulfstreams will do everything they can to convince us otherwise, and they've been quite successful at that by oversimplifying the issue.

May 15, 2011#36

twall

The idea that everyone who spends pays tax (thereby lowering the individual tax burden on everyone), is a good one. However, I think there'd be plenty of ways people would get around it.......as with anything...and it may very well be a mess.

I could see the 'used goods' part of it being a loophole already.

May 15, 2011#37

twall

@jetblast:

I'm not sure I agree totally with your thoughts.

If the rich person has the good fortune of making, say, $250, 000/yr - they are able to (and do) spend far more than someone like myself, making $27k/yr. If they buy the gulfstream? They will be paying far more tax than someone who buys a 3 year old used car. Or a Mercedes, or whatever. Therefore, they WILL be paying more in a dollar amount, than the poorer person. More in, more out.

Besides, it would be the poorer people who use more of the public services that their taxes would be helping to pay for (which they don't do now).

I just can't agree with social equality through taxation.

May 15, 2011#38

Jetblast

twall said:
@jetblast:

I'm not sure I agree totally with your thoughts.

If the rich person has the good fortune of making, say, $250, 000/yr - they are able to (and do) spend far more than someone like myself, making $27k/yr. If they buy the gulfstream? They will be paying far more tax than someone who buys a 3 year old used car. Or a Mercedes, or whatever. Therefore, they WILL be paying more in a dollar amount, than the poorer person. More in, more out.

Besides, it would be the poorer people who use more of the public services that their taxes would be helping to pay for (which they don't do now).

I just can't agree with social equality through taxation.

The overlords have trained you well, citizen. :biggrin:

May 15, 2011#39

twall

Jetblast said:
The overlords have trained you well, citizen. :biggrin:

May 15, 2011#40

mystreba

twall said:
@jetblast:

I'm not sure I agree totally with your thoughts.

If the rich person has the good fortune of making, say, $250, 000/yr - they are able to (and do) spend far more than someone like myself, making $27k/yr. If they buy the gulfstream? They will be paying far more tax than someone who buys a 3 year old used car. Or a Mercedes, or whatever. Therefore, they WILL be paying more in a dollar amount, than the poorer person. More in, more out.

Besides, it would be the poorer people who use more of the public services that their taxes would be helping to pay for (which they don't do now).

I just can't agree with social equality through taxation.

That's a good point. But consider this. What percentage of income do people spend? This is entirely anecdotal, but...

poor: 100%
middle class: approaching 100%
upper class: (no idea where to get the data, but my guess is somewhere south of 70% - any arguments to the contrary are welcome)
rich: ditto, south of 50%

So if you are a fan of the progressive tax approach (everyone pays a proportional share), the appeal of "fair tax" beings to wane.

May 15, 2011#41

BKBrown

Over Simplified Idea of a "Fair Tax"
Let's say there is a 5% tax on everything a person buys with the exception of food items and clothing.
Corporations pay 10% of Gross (not net).

Politicians pay the same as everyone else and get no benefits when no longer in office. All their personal assets are frozen except for standard interest while they are in office. (NO way to become rich from political favors)
I'm sorry, but there is no "fair" way to have a progressive tax.

OR - Everyone pays 10% of their gross income with no exceptions as to how the income was earned. No tax on purchases.

Now -- I'll get controversial -- I have absolutely NO problem with a person who is mentally or physically unable to work with getting assistance. I DO have a problem with people sitting at home and collecting money that others paid in taxes when they are capable of doing something to earn that money. Local governments should provide 40 hour / week jobs for anyone collecting public $. I could go into the kind of work required etc. - put in 40 hours verified and collect our check (if you can pass a drug test).

We would have CLEAN streets, highways, public buildings, + daycare for public employees.

Health Care is another issue !

OK - start your comments on my IDEAS -- remember they are just ideas.

May 15, 2011#42

twall

@ mystreba:

True, but if you look at the dollar amount, a rich person spending 50% of their income is a far greater amount than a poor person't 100%.

For example: I spend every dime of my $20 some-odd thousand a year. But, the owner of the shop, I'd bet spends more than that in 6 months. So, he'd still be paying more in taxes.

Yes, he'd have some leftover - whereas I don't - but, I can't begrudge him that. I like the guy, he works hard to keep me employed. That isn't just blowin sunshine up his you-know-what, either. During the downturn, he went into great personal debt just to keep the doors open.

May 15, 2011#43

mystreba

BKBrown said:
I'm sorry, but there is no "fair" way to have a progressive tax.

Well, you could..

BKBrown said:
Everyone pays 10% of their gross income with no exceptions as to how the income was earned. No tax on purchases.

Yes, do that! :biggrin:

ps - I don't find your views controversial at all.

May 15, 2011#44

mystreba

twall said:
@ mystreba:

True, but if you look at the dollar amount, a rich person spending 50% of their income is a far greater amount than a poor person't 100%.

For example: I spend every dime of my $20 some-odd thousand a year. But, the owner of the shop, I'd bet spends more than that in 6 months. So, he'd still be paying more in taxes.

Yes, he'd have some leftover - whereas I don't - but, I can't begrudge him that. I like the guy, he works hard to keep me employed. That isn't just blowin sunshine up his you-know-what, either. During the downturn, he went into great personal debt just to keep the doors open.

I think JB was right about the overlords! Your spending power was disproportionately reduced (by orders of magnitude, compared to a rich person), and you're ok with that!

May 15, 2011#45

twall

So, we should punish the rich guy for being lucky (or God forbid, working harder than me, and being willing to take chances I would not)? We should take more from him - so we all can be more socially equal?

I don't buy it. My dad was a small business owner, and I work for a small business. They are dis-incentivized to make the business more profitable (just so they can have more of the fruits of their labor taken away). I just don't believe in Socialism......it never seems to work out the way it was thought it would.

May 15, 2011#46

O

Oddball

Jetblast,

To paraphrase what you're saying: If you make more you should pay more.

That line of thinking is straight out of the Communist Manifesto.

I believe everyone pays the same % is the only "fair" way. The rich are going to pay more money through the fair tax simply because they will in all likelyhood be spending more money, buying those G4s and whatnot, but they will still be paying the same percentage as the guy flipping burgers at McDonalds. That's social equality to me. If you tax the burger flipper's boss to the point that its too much of a hassle to stay in business, what happens? The burger flipper loses his job, and there are a lot more burger flippers than rich guys employing them.

May 15, 2011#47

twall

"to each according to their needs - from each according to their ability" or something like that....

May 15, 2011#48

O

Oddball

twall said:
"to each according to their needs - from each according to their ability" or something like that....

Yep, and how did that work out for the USSR? The poor stayed poor and the elite class was just replaced by another elite class.

May 15, 2011#49

twall

Oddball said:
Yep, and how did that work out for the USSR? The poor stayed poor and the elite class was just replaced by another elite class.

The rich have a way of STAYING rich, no matter what societies through the ages have done to try and make it not so.

The nice thing about America is that you can always try your own hand at the businessman/woman thing. Nowhere on Earth was it easier than here.

But, the tax system is making it harder and harder, like mystreba said, but like I also said, there are other factors making it really difficult. Once it gets so hard, many who would have say "why bother" - we are doomed as a society.

May 15, 2011#50

mystreba

@twall - a tax on purchases helps the rich get richer and keeps the poor in their "proper" place because it leaves us average guys with no discretionary income, and those rich guys retain much more of their income for discretionary activies like investing. Do you have money for investments? You never will if you are taxed on what you spend, because you MUST spend everything that you make to survive.

That's what makes the "fair tax" unfair. (just ask yourself this question - who is promoting this idea of "fair tax"? I think you will find they are all millionaires. If YOU were asked to come up with a "fair tax", I doubt you'd cook up this scheme!)

Now don't misconstrue this as some "socialist plot" to redistribute the wealth. I absolutely do not want to punish the rich fat cats (maybe take them out behind the woodshed, but certainly not punish them financially). But a flat tax of 25% certainly seems more fair to me. It leave us all (rich and poor alike) with a proportional amount of discretionary income.

May 15, 2011#51

Jetblast

Oddball said:
Jetblast,

To paraphrase what you're saying: If you make more you should pay more.

That line of thinking is straight out of the Communist Manifesto.

Nice try, ghost of Joseph McCarthy! That kind of logical fallacy is straight out of Mein Kampf.

Always best to cite your sources if you're going to make extraordinary claims and avoid paranoid sounding rhetoric.

May 15, 2011#52

twall

@mystreba:

Then add in the states tax, and that's another can of worms.......I think the flat taxers said that if everyone paid a 13% income tax, the government would be swimming in black ink in notime. Not an entirely bad idea.

But it still smacks of socialism.......

May 15, 2011#53

O

Oddball

twall said:
The rich have a way of STAYING rich, no matter what societies through the ages have done to try and make it not so.

Or in the case of Donald Trump and a few others, losing it all and building up again several times. Hasn't he been bankrupt like 4 or 5 times? Yet he continues to recover and rebuild his wealth.

The nice thing about America is that you can always try your own hand at the businessman/woman thing. Nowhere on Earth was it easier than here.

Not sure I agree with that anymore. There are a few countries now whose tax structure makes it a lot easier to start and operate a business. I can't remember them now, but I recently heard a list and we were number 4 or 5 on it.

But, the tax system is making it harder and harder, like mystreba said, but like I also said, there are other factors making it really difficult. Once it gets so hard, many who would have say "why bother" - we are doomed as a society.

True. My wife is in the early stages of starting a new business and I keep thinking to myself "this'll last until she see's what a nightmare taxes are going to be next year.", and that doesn't even include having medical insurance, which she has through my job. I hope she's successful. I'd like to retire for a while:smile:, but I just don't see it lasting once she sees what a hassle it is. I've had several ideas for starting a business, but just do not want the headache of dealing with gov't regs and taxes.

May 15, 2011#54

Jetblast

Anatomy of every political discussion on the internet:

May 15, 2011#55

mystreba

twall said:
But it still smacks of socialism.......

Each paying an equal proportion is socialist? In what way?

May 15, 2011#56

twall

mystreba said:
Each paying an equal proportion is socialist? In what way?

the 'each according to their ability' part. That's why it just smacks of it.......it's not to-the wall socialism....:wink:

May 15, 2011#57

O

Oddball

Jetblast said:
Nice try, ghost of Joseph McCarthy! That kind of logical fallacy is straight out of Mein Kampf.

If you want to be taken seriously you'll need to turn up the logic, cite your sources if you're going to make extraordinary claims, and turn down the paranoid rhetoric. Otherwise I can tune in Glenn Beck/hit myself in the head with a hammer.

Well, I really wasn't trying to pick a fight, but I guess I hit a nerve. Truth hurts does it? Or do you just really not know that what you said echoes Marx and Lenin? Read Lenin and Marx and you'll find your logic all through their works. Mein Kampf? Seriously? Veiled allusions to capitalists who recognize Communist theory when they hear it, and pointing it out as such, as being Nazis is not very mature and shows you have no logical argument against what I said. By the way, Nazis were socialist, a very close cousin to communism. They were in no way a free enterprise system.

I'm sorry, I really didn't intend this to turn into an argument. I should have kept my mouth shut about the fair tax. I'll just ignore your posts from now on unless they have something to do with lawnmowers or landscaping. Maybe we can agree on those things at least.

May 15, 2011#58

BKBrown

I may be misquoting, but I believe it was Margaret Thatcher who said :
"Socialism works GREAT until you run out of other peoples' money."

Social justice has never worked because eventually the people who are having their money taken decide they would rather take for a while !

How many people work FOR someone who has less than they do, and expect to get paid well ???? :confused3:

May 15, 2011#59

twall

@BKBrown:

Well said. :thumbsup:

May 15, 2011#60

RobertBrown

Jetblast said:
Nice try, ghost of Joseph McCarthy! That kind of logical fallacy is straight out of Mein Kampf.

Always best to cite your sources if you're going to make extraordinary claims and avoid paranoid sounding rhetoric.

Excellent!
What happened to the Glen Beck reference? Should have left it in...... Can I use that?

May 15, 2011#61

O

Oddball

mystreba said:
@twall - a tax on purchases helps the rich get richer and keeps the poor in their "proper" place because it leaves us average guys with no discretionary income, and those rich guys retain much more of their income for discretionary activies like investing. Do you have money for investments? You never will if you are taxed on what you spend, because you MUST spend everything that you make to survive.

QUOTE]

I don't follow your logic Mystreba. If you replace the 22% imbedded taxes on everything now with a 23% sales tax, you are basically keeping prices the same. A $100 dollar item would become $78. The Fair Tax of 23% would then make that item actually cost you about $96. On top of that the Fair Tax would do away with federal taxes, so you'de be bringing home what, 25 to 35% more of your paycheck?, so you'd have more descretionary income to spend. How do you figure you MUST spend everything you make to survive? You'll be paying the same thing at the store and bringing home 25 to 35% more money. On top of that, the tax you'd pay, based on the poverty level of your household, would be refunded to you every month. Say a family of 4 has a poverty level of $24,000/year. I don't know what the actual figure is, but 24K makes the math easy. That breaks down to $2000/month. The tax you'd pay on that 2000 would be $460 (23% of $2000). The gov't would send you a check every month to cover the tax you'd pay on the basic neccessities. If the income of that family was, say $24000/year, the net would be say $22,560, that's based on an arbitrary state income tax rate of 6%. Add to that the $460/month rebate on taxes on the neccessities, which comes out to $5520/year, and all of a sudden the family is actually coming out about $4000 ahead of where they started. The actual poverty level for a family of 4 is around 22,000, I just used 24K to make the math easier in my head, but the numbers come out pretty close to the same.

May 15, 2011#62

twall

@oddball:

I think you were right above in getting back to mowers. This topic has been hashed to the brink. Nobody's changing their minds.......

So, all we're doing is arguing. I don't want to test Muhammad's patience with this - he's let this thread stand thsfar.....

May 15, 2011#63

O

Oddball

Agreed. We ventured into politics, which I failed to note was against the rules, and had no intention of straying into to such a degree anyway.

May 15, 2011#64

jd335

the only thing i will say is 95 percent of the things i use and need are not made in this country so i don't have a choise for example the only shoe company that makes shoes in the us is red wing if they don't have a shoe i like then it's across the water or nothing.:confused2:

May 15, 2011#65

twall

jd335 said:
the only thing i will say is 95 percent of the things i use and need are not made in this country so i don't have a choise for example the only shoe company that makes shoes in the us is red wing if they don't have a shoe i like then it's across the water or nothing.:confused2:

Not even all Red Wing shoes are US made....I looked on their site, and the first steel toe I looked at was made in China.....:frown:

May 15, 2011#66

BKBrown

Dogpile search for shoes boots "made in USA"
shoes boots "made in USA" - Dogpile Web Search

May 15, 2011#67

mystreba

twall said:
This topic has been hashed to the brink. Nobody's changing their minds. So, all we're doing is arguing. I don't want to test Muhammad's patience with this - he's let this thread stand thsfar.....

Why, and whose brink? Seems like a perfectly legit Front Porch discussion. I agree that it is difficult to discuss these topics while skirting political references, but if you can keep the politics out, it's a fascinating discussion! But I have to admit that I'm a bit of a discussion freak. I sat around the firepit last night talking issues with some guys until 2:30 am - in a cold drizzle.

Oddball said:
I don't follow your logic Mystreba. If you.....

Not sure I follow yours either, since the fair tax has nothing to do with prices as far as I can tell. To frame it in that context only serves to cloud the issue - for me at least. But you did force me to look some stuff up, and I realize that I was ill-informed about the fair tax. So I learned something! See why I love discussion? :thumbsup:

I'ma have to call a timeout to research this further. So you see, discussion is good.

Postscript - my son came to me as I was posting this and asked me what Varsol was - he'd been watching a home repair program called "Holmes on Homes". I told him I didn't know. He said "GEEZ!! I want smarter adults!" Put me right in my place.

May 15, 2011#68

M

Mini Motors

Let's be clear about one thing. There is a huge difference between an American company producing components of their product outside of the country, and foreign companies setting up factories here in the U.S.. While companies like Nissan and Toyota employ Americans, their profits still leave the country. And this affects the balance of trade. They also have an unfair advantage in that they get tax break incentives from states who do so to entice them to set up shop in their state. GM, Ford and Chrysler don't get these breaks because they haven't opened a new factory since this practice has been in style. GM had a new factory, a Saturn plant, but it has since closed when Saturn went away. Every car maker in the U.S. that is not GM, Ford, or Chrysler gets these tax breaks. And let's not forget why they decided to set up here in the first place. It was to get around import taxes. That certainly sounds fair to me!:thumbdown:

May 15, 2011#69

twall

Mini Motors said:
Let's be clear about one thing. There is a huge difference between an American company producing components of their product outside of the country, and foreign companies setting up factories here in the U.S..

....Then there are the American companies that have a window A/C unit made in China, assemled in China, the box is printed in China, and it's packed in China......but it says G.E. - so the profits stay here, right? Or do they go to an offshore bank in the Carribean?

May 15, 2011#70

M

Mini Motors

Where GE or whoever keeps their money doesn't affect the balance of trade, and is a whole other argument.

May 16, 2011#71

O

Oddball

mystreba said:
Not sure I follow yours either, since the fair tax has nothing to do with prices as far as I can tell. To frame it in that context only serves to cloud the issue - for me at least. But you did force me to look some stuff up, and I realize that I was ill-informed about the fair tax. So I learned something! See why I love discussion? :thumbsup:

The Fair Tax is basically a national sales tax. That's where cost of goods comes into play.

I'ma have to call a timeout to research this further. So you see, discussion is good.

:thumbsup:I urge you to read the Fair Tax books, there are two of them. The second answers questions that were raised but not answered in the first. Or go to FairTax.org, you'll probably find some answers there.

Postscript - my son came to me as I was posting this and asked me what Varsol was - he'd been watching a home repair program called "Holmes on Homes". I told him I didn't know. He said "GEEZ!! I want smarter adults!" Put me right in my place.

[/QUOTE]

What, you didn't stop what you were doing, open a new window and google it for him right then? That's what my wife expects me to do. She's often disappointed. I watched a couple of episodes of that last night also. Missed the reference to Varsol though. I have no idea what it is either.

May 16, 2011#72

poncho62

Oddball said:
Postscript - my son came to me as I was posting this and asked me what Varsol was - he'd been watching a home repair program called "Holmes on Homes". I told him I didn't know. He said "GEEZ!! I want smarter adults!" Put me right in my place.

.[/QUOTE]

Varsol is a solvent.....its like diesel fuel or fuel oil.....I believe its a Canadian brand name, because we just use that name for it and Americans dont....Mike Holmes is a Canuk....lives in my home town actually....lol

May 16, 2011#73

BKBrown

What is varsol? It's an ExxonMobil brand of hydrocarbon solvent for automotive/machinery parts cleaners.
Varsol* is a brand name for a high quality, pure, low odour paint thinner with a medium to fast evaporation rate. Its low odor and low flammability makes it safer.
Varsol fluids are traditional solvents that are also known as mineral spirits or white spirits.

May 16, 2011#74

mystreba

I think Varsol is a Keurig flavor - it's what my wife brews. yuk!

May 16, 2011#75

BKBrown

I don't think I'll get that flavor :thumbdown:!

There are quite a few I like, but I don't believe that would be one of them !

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