New Courage V twin no compression

[DaveTN]

TR5 Sorry to hear of your delays and lack of service with the Kohler
Chinese delegation. At one time I was an "authorized service mechanic"
for Sears small engines, but that was a long time ago. Good Luck with
getting authorized service soon. :thumbsup:

 

[TR5T]

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

 

[gainestruk]

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

Wow I don't know what to say, didn't you say only 6 hrs on it ?
I run e10 every now and then, but it's always fresh, most times its 100 percent gas.

With that low of hours he wouldn't help you with anything on repair ?
It's hard for me to believe that with as low hrs as it is it would gum up that fast.

Sorry to hear about your problems with it, my 23 hp courage twin has 95.6 hours with no problems, guess I'll go to only 100 % gas from now on.
Are you fixing it or shop doing it ?

 

[DaveTN]

I've seen valves gummed up and varnished up and stuck open or closed on
account of carbon and carbon-oil deposits preventing them from working.
I usually just clean the valves or remove them and use a wire brush manually
or on the electric grinding wheel with a wire brush to clean them up. Clean
out the bores and put them back after cleaning and gaping properly. I've
never heard of ethanol doing such a horrific job of gumming up like this one!
Wow..what a story. I've never had anything this bad before with ethanol but
will definitely remember this one! :confused2: Thanks for sharing this story.
Still all in all Kohler should make it right as ""gainestruk" said earlier. This will
definitely hurt Kohler's image and reputation. Even if I sold you your mower
I would stand behind it and make it right just to keep you and other potential
customers happy. Small price to pay really even if wasn't my fault.

 

[TR5T]

I saw it and I am correct on the running time. The deposits were there and could both be seen and felt. Aparently the clearances on new engine at valve stem to guides are so close that that short a run time could build enough to cause the valve to seize in its guide. On the Oliver tractor engine (mentioned in previous post) that I repaired I recollect that the deposits were both thicker build up and a darker color than what I observed today. I did not tear down the previous Kohler which suddenly lost compression on one cylinder (also due to valves) on the same tank of fuel!!! I would hazard a guess that a teardown of that engine would reveal the same problem as this one. Hard to believe that this crap fuel could do so much damage in so short a time. If you look hard enough you can always find a plus ........ i"m looking.........Oh, great I see it now , I am saving the planet. You may now thank me for doing my part.

I am not going to make the engine repair myself, I am 77 yrs. and have not enough time as it is don't need another project, have plenty on my plate. I can use my time more profitably working on the stuff I love to work on. Let the shop do it and call me when it is ready.

Mike, thanks for the sympathy and the interest. Beware the Ethanol!!!

 

[TR5T]

Dave,
Thanks for your insight and knowledge. Really appreciated and your attitude. Kohler claims no liability/responsibility in the fuel you choose. I feel that Kohler would be wise to attach a label to their engines warning of this critical fuel use and that they will not reimburse damage as a result of fuel related issues. You might even say they are negligent. Kohler clearly states in the Owners Manual that the use of 10% ethanol is approved. They also caution that fuel left over from previous usage is not to be used and recommend buying fuel in small quantities (2 gal.); nowhere that I find do Kohler describe any catastrophic event as the result of not following their fuel recommendations, only that deposits may result in the system.
This Gravely has 2 saddle tanks at 5 gal. per ea. which complicates Kohler's recommendations. Therefore a clear statement attached permanently to the engine itself would be a better method of conveying this critical information.

 

[bertsmobile1]

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

And I am professional small engine repairer plus a motorcycle enthusiasts and had been the main contact point for the state BSA club for over 25 years.
Having never stopped restoring & riding air cooled carburettorerd engine for all this time ( 45 years) I can assure you that this is not uncommon.
The difference between your motorcycle engines & your mower engines is the former are built to a substantially more robust level than the mower engine.
Motorcycles are designed for 1000+ hours a year.
Mower engines are designed for a service life of 1000 hours period.

Next, petrol is a mythical liquid no longer made and has been that way and getting worse since the introduction of unleaded which had absolutely nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with the profitability of fuel companies.
Those of you over 40 will remember the old days when we used gas to degrease and you will remember leaving a bowl of gas by the side of your car when doing the wheel bearings.
By the time you finished refitting the bearings on one side, all of the gas in your degreasing bowl had evaporated.
Put a bowl of gas out in the sun now days ( jailable offence in some States ) and it does not evaporate leaving the bowl clean & dry.
It reduces to about 1/3 it's volume and becomes a sticky dark brown foul smelling sludge.
Fuel, which is not petrol, is a mixture of all the organic partially volatile solvents left over from the manufacture of plastics & fertilizers from crude oil, plus some fluids deemed to dangerous for general use ( solvent benzene for example ) .
They toss in some stabilisers and a few aromatic rings ( so it can start ) and then flog it off to you.
They can do this because all cars since the 90's are fuel injected and since the 2000's are computer controlled fuel injected so can partilly burn almost any fluid from light fuel oil through to strait ethanol.
I said "partially burn" because even the computer can not keep the air fuel ratio at a combustable level and we are required to fit AFTER BURNERS to all our vehicles cunningly called catalytic converters to disguise the fact that a lot of what you pay good money to put in your tank goes strait out the exhaust unburned.

Even worse there is no rhyme or reason to the way "fuel" will degrade with time.
I have started and run my A65 with 6 month old gas in it no troubles then week latter it just fouls plugs on a tank full of fresh fuel I left in from the previous weekends refill.

About 15% of my work is soaking carbs in cleaning solutions, dropping the carb in the ultrasound then refitting to the engine

 

[bertsmobile1]

Dave,
Thanks for your insight and knowledge. Really appreciated and your attitude. Kohler claims no liability/responsibility in the fuel you choose. I feel that Kohler would be wise to attach a label to their engines warning of this critical fuel use and that they will not reimburse damage as a result of fuel related issues. You might even say they are negligent. Kohler clearly states in the Owners Manual that the use of 10% ethanol is approved. They also caution that fuel left over from previous usage is not to be used and recommend buying fuel in small quantities (2 gal.); nowhere that I find do Kohler describe any catastrophic event as the result of not following their fuel recommendations, only that deposits may result in the system.
This Gravely has 2 saddle tanks at 5 gal. per ea. which complicates Kohler's recommendations. Therefore a clear statement attached permanently to the engine itself would be a better method of conveying this critical information.

Ethanol blends are not causing this problem.
Stale fuel is the problem.
Fuel is a metastable product .
Over time the light highly volatile parts will evaporate off and this can be from 5 % to 25 % of the volume.
At the same time the heavier ( thicker less volatile ) parts start to react with each other, slowly turning back into the tar oil from which was formed, just the same as steel rusts and goes back to the iron oxide from whence it came which is chemically stable.
So fresh E 10 is fine, provided you use it quickly as all of the synthetic rubbers it dissolves have now been replaced by ethanol resistant products.
Old e anything is not. in fact any old fuel is bad.
How old is too old ?
Down here BP guarantee their "fuel" for 90 days from manufacture, provided it was purchased in a sealed container ( not at the pump ) and kept in a sea;ed container for the whole 90 days, out of direct sunlight in a cool place
Shell have almost the same warrantee.
Diesel is only good for 30 days with the same proviso and avgas is 120 days, same conditions.

Ethanol is a problem when left sitting in you carburettor where it can separate , adsorb water and grow bacteria ( same as the old diesel used to ) .
This fills your float bowl with that white jelly like goo that blocks up every thing.
To make matter worse, both it and the remainding fuel is electrically conductive so you get several galvanic cells happening in yout float bowl further blocking up passageways and removing metal from the carburettor till the center is so thin it breaks off when you tighten the bowl nut. Added to that the aromatics evaporate and the remaining fuel becomes that heavy dark brown sludge, which is the same as the case of stale fuel.

The solution is to fit a tap to your fuel line and run your carburettor dry rather than allowing the shut off solenoid to trap a full bowl of fuel in your carburettor this will also cause a few seconds of very lean burn just before your engine starves and the lean burn is a lot hotter than a balanced burn which can go a long way to burning off deposits from your plugs and valves although it would apply more to the exhaust than the inlet.
This is SOP down here in the Vintage/ classic motorcycle movements to starve the engine off if it is going to be sitting long enough to cool down.