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Toro Timecutter SS4235 blades won't engage

#1

W

wrdabney

The blades on my Timecutter stopped engaging with the pto switch today. It happened once and I fooled with some wires and let it cool off and they came back on when I tried it again. Now, it happened again and I can't get them to engage at all after a couple of hours. I pulled out the multimeter and the pto switch is working properly and where the wiring harness connector hooks to the blade clutch is getting power when I engage the pto switch. Any ideas on what else I can check? I know the blades are tied in to the seat switch somehow but it seems to be working properly. One thing that confuses me is that there is a 2-wire female plug with a yellow and black wire just taped to the side of the harness going up to the seat switch. It is not hooked to anything. Any idea what the purpose of this is? I can get a pic tomorrow with some light if that would help. Thanks.


#2

briggs

briggs

wrdabney said:
The blades on my Timecutter stopped engaging with the pto switch today. It happened once and I fooled with some wires and let it cool off and they came back on when I tried it again. Now, it happened again and I can't get them to engage at all after a couple of hours. I pulled out the multimeter and the pto switch is working properly and where the wiring harness connector hooks to the blade clutch is getting power when I engage the pto switch. Any ideas on what else I can check? I know the blades are tied in to the seat switch somehow but it seems to be working properly. One thing that confuses me is that there is a 2-wire female plug with a yellow and black wire just taped to the side of the harness going up to the seat switch. It is not hooked to anything. Any idea what the purpose of this is? I can get a pic tomorrow with some light if that would help. Thanks.
Click to expand...


I had one that did the same thing it would work then i t would not ..It turned out to be the switch it was getting hot and stopping at first i thought it was the clutch its self ..I changed it but still did it test the clutch also


#3

W

wrdabney

briggs said:
I had one that did the same thing it would work then i t would not ..It turned out to be the switch it was getting hot and stopping at first i thought it was the clutch its self ..I changed it but still did it test the clutch also
Click to expand...

You're saying it ended up being the pto switch? How can I test the clutch?


#4

M

mechanic mark

https://www.google.com/search?q=tor...ORB4DkgWA&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=674


https://icontent.toro.com/smartmanuals/zmaster_400_500/Proc13316.htm


https://icontent.toro.com/smartmanuals/ZMaster_400_500/Proc13318.htm



Follow instructions in your owners manual when checking and adjusting air gap at clutch which is located at bottom of crankshaft.


#5

R

Rivets

I'll put my money on the switch. Replace it.


#6

W

wrdabney

mechanic mark said:
https://www.google.com/search?q=tor...ORB4DkgWA&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=674


https://icontent.toro.com/smartmanuals/zmaster_400_500/Proc13316.htm


https://icontent.toro.com/smartmanuals/ZMaster_400_500/Proc13318.htm



Follow instructions in your owners manual when checking and adjusting air gap at clutch which is located at bottom of crankshaft.
Click to expand...

My owners manual does not give instructions for adjusting air gap at clutch. It says if blade clutch won't come on to contact a service center.


#7

Carscw

Carscw

First thing I would do is turn the key to run do not start the engine turn the pto on do you hear the clutch try to engage? If yes then adjust the clutch. If no then make sure the power wire and ground is ok and getting power to the clutch.

Last clutch problem I had it would shut off and on it was the voltage regulator not grounding to the engine.


#8

W

wrdabney

Thanks so far guys. I did check the power wiring going to the clutch and it is getting power when I pull the pto switch. Any suggestions on where I can find instructions on adjusting the clutch?


#9

Carscw

Carscw

wrdabney said:
Thanks so far guys. I did check the power wiring going to the clutch and it is getting power when I pull the pto switch. Any suggestions on where I can find instructions on adjusting the clutch?
Click to expand...


This should make it easy

http://www.mowfaster.com/service/el_cl_adj.php


#10

W

wrdabney

Thanks for the link. I tried your test of turning the key on and pulling the pto switch and I could not hear the clutch try to engage. Does this mean bad switch? I checked voltage where the wires hook to the clutch and they seem to be putting out proper voltage when the pto switch is engaged or disengaged.


#11

Carscw

Carscw

wrdabney said:
Thanks for the link. I tried your test of turning the key on and pulling the pto switch and I could not hear the clutch try to engage. Does this mean bad switch? I checked voltage where the wires hook to the clutch and they seem to be putting out proper voltage when the pto switch is engaged or disengaged.
Click to expand...

I would think if your getting power to the clutch when you pull out the switch then the switch is good. I am thinking the clutch has gone out.

There are a few guys on here that know more about how the clutch works. I would wait and see what they have to say.
So my best advice is let's see what others have to say.


#12

W

wrdabney

Carscw said:
I would think if your getting power to the clutch when you pull out the switch then the switch is good. I am thinking the clutch has gone out.

There are a few guys on here that know more about how the clutch works. I would wait and see what they have to say.
So my best advice is let's see what others have to say.
Click to expand...

Thanks Carscw. Hopefully, someone will chime in.


#13

briggs

briggs

wrdabney said:
Thanks Carscw. Hopefully, someone will chime in.
Click to expand...


what i would do is remove the belt unplug the clutch Make 2 hot wires and plug them into the clutch and test it with a 12v battery....If clutch is bad replace ...I ran in to this and thought it was the clutch so i changed it but i didnt test it ether new clutch did the same mine ended up being the switch it would work when cold but went it heated up a little it would cut the clutch off ...I changed the switch and it works perfect now


#14

W

wrdabney

briggs said:
what i would do is remove the belt unplug the clutch Make 2 hot wires and plug them into the clutch and test it with a 12v battery....If clutch is bad replace ...I ran in to this and thought it was the clutch so i changed it but i didnt test it ether new clutch did the same mine ended up being the switch it would work when cold but went it heated up a little it would cut the clutch off ...I changed the switch and it works perfect now
Click to expand...

Thanks Briggs. I'll give that a shot. I would much rather replace a $40 switch than a $270 clutch.


#15

briggs

briggs

wrdabney said:
Thanks Briggs. I'll give that a shot. I would much rather replace a $40 switch than a $270 clutch.
Click to expand...


yes i do agree lol ....As i did that lol and ended up with a spare one


#16

W

wrdabney

briggs said:
yes i do agree lol ....As i did that lol and ended up with a spare one
Click to expand...

I guess I've ended up with a spare PTO switch. I replaced it and that didn't work. I ran wires from a 12v battery to the hook up on the clutch and it will click like it's trying to engage but does not turn. Should it turn if I run a hot wire straight to it or is it working right if it just clicks? Can these clutches be rebuilt or do you pretty much just have to buy a new one? Thanks.


#17

briggs

briggs

wrdabney said:
I guess I've ended up with a spare PTO switch. I replaced it and that didn't work. I ran wires from a 12v battery to the hook up on the clutch and it will click like it's trying to engage but does not turn. Should it turn if I run a hot wire straight to it or is it working right if it just clicks? Can these clutches be rebuilt or do you pretty much just have to buy a new one? Thanks.
Click to expand...


i just buy another try for a used one if u can some of those clutches are not cheap


#18

W

wrdabney

So I'm still trying to hunt down this issue. It's very frustrating. I'm about ready to just take it to the local repair shop. I just put the new blade clutch on it and to my surprise and disappointment that was not the problem. So, I've replaced the switch and the clutch. What else is there?


#19

Fish

Fish

wrdabney said:
I ran wires from a 12v battery to the hook up on the clutch and it will click like it's trying to engage but does not turn. Should it turn if I run a hot wire straight to it or is it working right if it just clicks?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have 2 good clutches now. The wiring going to electric pto switches is very complex, take a pic or two of the clutch, that mystery wire, and the tag with the model number so we can look at the wiring diagram


#20

Fish

Fish

Or just give us the model number off of the tag for starters....


#21

W

wrdabney

Thanks Fish, I'll do that when I get home from work today.


#22

Carscw

Carscw

When I had this problem it was the voltage regulator as that is what the clutch runs off of.


#23

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS

Pig tail or the pto switch is a good place to start!


#24

W

wrdabney

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS said:
Pig tail or the pto switch is a good place to start!
Click to expand...

I've already replaced the switch. What do you mean by the pigtail?


#25

Fish

Fish

Go get that model number!!!!


#26

Carscw

Carscw

If you could give us the model number it would make this easier for everyone


#27

W

wrdabney

Carscw said:
If you could give us the model number it would make this easier for everyone
Click to expand...

I will when I get off work. Are you guys referring to the mower model number?


#28

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS

wrdabney said:
I've already replaced the switch. What do you mean by the pigtail?
Click to expand...

The wire going into the clutch, maybe separated from the connector.


#29

Carscw

Carscw

wrdabney said:
I will when I get off work. Are you guys referring to the mower model number?
Click to expand...

Post the mower and the engine numbers as that would make mr fish very happy.


#30

W

wrdabney

OUTDOOR CONCEPTS said:
The wire going into the clutch, maybe separated from the connector.
Click to expand...

I'll check that when I get home


#31

W

wrdabney

I have the serial number with me. Is there any way to get the info on the mower and engine from the serial number?


#32

Fish

Fish

No, not that I know of. Just put up the model number when you get home, and don't buy any more parts..... Also, can you take a pic of the loose wire you mentioned?


#33

W

wrdabney

Fish said:
No, not that I know of. Just put up the model number when you get home, and don't buy any more parts..... Also, can you take a pic of the loose wire you mentioned?
Click to expand...

I sure will. Give me about 3 hours


#34

Fish

Fish

wrdabney said:
I sure will. Give me about 3 hours
Click to expand...

I'll see if the warden will let me log on then.......


#35

W

wrdabney

IMG_20140113_181056_054_zps3xzfslzc.jpg

IMG_20140113_181034_447_zpsn9puu8z9.jpg

IMG_20140113_181022_665_zpsudz6vrjh.jpg

IMG_20140113_181007_687_zpssw7yb7o4.jpg


#36

Fish

Fish

Well to start with, here is the online download of the manual with the wiring diagram

Toro |


I'll try to put it up here to make it easier for everyone to see it and chip in to try and help you. I hate this new windows...........


#37

Fish

Fish

Still working on the diagram, but to download the whole manual, click on "manuals" then free download the operator's manual, the diagram is on page 50.


#38

Carscw

Carscw

Does this help?

image-123658083.jpg


#39

W

wrdabney

Thanks guys. I'll go through the diagram and start checking items when I get home.


#40

Fish

Fish

Thanks Carscw!!!


#41

W

wrdabney

After studying the diagram and doing some testing the only thing it can be I think is the starter solenoid which the blade clutch wiring hooks to or the brake actuator. I'm sending back this blade clutch so I'm thinking about just buying the solenoid and trying that and if that isn't it trying the brake actuator. I tried running some tests with the multimeter and couldn't come up with a conclusive answer.


#42

Fish

Fish

It wouldn't be the solenoid, as that is just hooking to the ground terminal side of the solenoid, and if the solenoid wasn't functioning properly, the engine wouldn't even crank.


#43

Fish

Fish

Do you show voltage getting to the A side of the pto clutch? If so, just hook a wire to ground on the other terminal, and the clutch should then work.

Both the clutch and solenoid are just simple electromagnets, one side hooked to the positive side of the battery, and the other side to the negative/ground, and the
device pulls together magnetically, the clutch pulls the plates together, thus locking the pto shaft of the engine to the pulley that runs the deck.
On the solenoid, it pulls a plate with contacts on it which connect the positive cable from the battery to the positive cable to the starter.


#44

Fish

Fish

Most starter solenoids have only one small terminal, as the switch is grounded where it is bolted to the frame. But some have two, so they can run some of the safety
switches on the ground side of the circuit.


#45

W

wrdabney

Fish said:
Most starter solenoids have only one small terminal, as the switch is grounded where it is bolted to the frame. But some have two, so they can run some of the safety
switches on the ground side of the circuit.
Click to expand...

Fish,
My starter solenoid has 2 small terminals. I am not getting any power at either terminal on the blade clutch hook up wiring. Would that point towards the brake actuator or even possibly the seat switch? One thing that could possibly be related is sometime when I start the mower and pull the handles together to drive it will try to cut the mower off and I have to push the handles back out real quick to keep it running. Could this mean an intermittent seat switch or possibly this is related to the brake actuator?


#46

Fish

Fish

Just clamp your negative lead onto the negative or good ground, whether test light or multimeter, set in the 12v dc range, then touch the positive lead to the post B
on the back of the keyswitch {red wire}, should get 12+ volts.

Next, turn the key to "on", not "crank", then test for voltage at the R + I +A terminals, should show 12+ volts there as well.

If so, go to the pink wires on the pto switch, test them


#47

W

wrdabney

Fish said:
Just clamp your negative lead onto the negative or good ground, whether test light or multimeter, set in the 12v dc range, then touch the positive lead to the post B
on the back of the keyswitch {red wire}, should get 12+ volts.

Next, turn the key to "on", not "crank", then test for voltage at the R + I +A terminals, should show 12+ volts there as well.

If so, go to the pink wires on the pto switch, test them
Click to expand...


So I guess next round of testing complete and still no blades. I get 12v at post b all times, 12v at post r i a with switch on and 12v at pink wires on pto switch with starter switch on. What's my next move?


#48

Fish

Fish

Can you give a pic of the switch on the bottom of the seat? Have you tested the seat switch? Can you give a pic of the starter solenoid?


With the pto and key switch on, do you have power on the other wires coming out of the pto switch?


#49

W

wrdabney

I put a jumper wire on the seat switch to take that out of the equation and it made no difference for the blade operation. On the pto switch with the key in the on position and the pto switch off the pink wires are hot, the white wire is hot, and the brown wire is not hot. With the pto switch pulled out the pink wires stay hot, the white wire is no longer hot and the brown wire is hot.


#50

Fish

Fish

On the diagram, it is called a grey wire, but no matter, it looks like every thing is working up to that point, so the ground circuit is likely where the problem is. To confirm this, run a jumper from the green wire from the clutch to the frame and ground it, and the blades should engage.


#51

reynoldston

reynoldston

Just because you get voltage to the clutch doesn't mean you are getting amperage.


#52

Fish

Fish

OK!!!! Thanks for taking this one over!!!!!!


#53

W

wrdabney

Hold the press, it's been confirmed...I'm an idiot. When I jumpered the seat switch earlier and tested the blades I failed to realize that my blade clutch plug was still unplugged from when I was testing it earlier. So after a bunch of hooplah it comes down to a measley little seat switch. Nothing a wire nut and a little snipping couldn't fix right quick. Bypassed the seat switch, pulled the pto switch out and voila, that beautiful noise of spinning blades I've been wanting to hear for a while now. I appreciate all of the help from everyone, especially fish.


#54

Fish

Fish

Good, great to hear it!!!


#55

W

wrdabney

I just don't understand how it would drive with the faulty seat switch but the blades would not engage. Oh well, at least it's working now


#56

reynoldston

reynoldston

Its working now and you are happy so that is what counts. That is the different voltage and amperage is the reason the switch isn't working.


#57

R

redsonja

Just saying thanks for this thread, my Toro Timecutter 74366 would stop and start on blades engaging. After checking everything mentioned here I found and fixed the problem, simple and easy. I recently replaced the V-belt which required removing the clutch. Apparently I didn't plug the clutch wires back in snugly when I reassembled things. Plugged it in all the way and voilà! Back to mowing. Thanks to everyone willing to help people out.

RedSonja
Wingnut Farms
Huntsville, AL
"A few bolts short of a tractor."


#58

BATComm1

BATComm1

I know this is an old thread but I'm fighting this problem, my brake control assembly has been none functional for 2 years, I have the green/black wires jumpered so it would start.. So none of my safety has worked for 2 years.. That being said I am picking up an new one tomorrow because I have a teenager starting to mow and well.. Let's just say.. All safety is needed.. ?.. I was mowing and the blades just stopped, mower kept running but no blades...


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