You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Export thread
robin/subaru factory to close
#1
066
066
Today at work, a sales rep for Honda came in for his monthly visit & told us that the Robin/Subaru factory in Tokyo Japan will be closing down next year, due to the factory not making a profit. He says that Honda world wide are starting to ramp up operations at plants in China, India, Taiwan to meet expected demand as a replacement brand.
I was just wondering if anyone else has heard if this is true....
I was just wondering if anyone else has heard if this is true....
#2
M
Midniteoyl
I dunno.. Kinda hard to believe being they are the 4th largest engine manufacturer. Just industrial side, not auto included.
M
Midniteoyl
Today at work, a sales rep for Honda came in for his monthly visit & told us that the Robin/Subaru factory in Tokyo Japan will be closing down next year, due to the factory not making a profit. He says that Honda world wide are starting to ramp up operations at plants in China, India, Taiwan to meet expected demand as a replacement brand.
I was just wondering if anyone else has heard if this is true....
I dunno.. Kinda hard to believe being they are the 4th largest engine manufacturer. Just industrial side, not auto included.
#3
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Which was around about where Tecumseh were when they went down.
Unless there is a revolution in China in the near future all engine makers will either have a factory in China or go to the wall.
Unless there is a revolution in China in the near future all engine makers will either have a factory in China or go to the wall.
#5
066
066
wow, thats pretty big news for our industry....
#7
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Well, from the position of the board.
1) to compete you have to make trash because that is all the market will pay for, devaluing the company name
2) you will have to accept uneconomically low profit margins due to subsidised Chineese labour
3) your product has at best 20 years to run before being replaced by electric powered devices
4) legislators continue to pretend to be protecting the enviroment by forcing unrealistic emission requirements on a sector that contributes less than 1% of emissions = unrecoverable developement costs.
5) Auto division provides a substantially higher profit and represents better use of shareholders fund.
It is a no brainer.
They either had to do what B & S has done and secure market share by purchasing the end users of their engines with the long term plan of shifting all production to China or exit the market.
They chose the honourable alternative.
More strength to their arm.
With some luck this might start some conversation & thought in the population that there is a consequence every time they open their wallets.
The unfortunate down side is another few thousand hard working people will be out of work due wholey & solely to the greed & selfishness of others.
1) to compete you have to make trash because that is all the market will pay for, devaluing the company name
2) you will have to accept uneconomically low profit margins due to subsidised Chineese labour
3) your product has at best 20 years to run before being replaced by electric powered devices
4) legislators continue to pretend to be protecting the enviroment by forcing unrealistic emission requirements on a sector that contributes less than 1% of emissions = unrecoverable developement costs.
5) Auto division provides a substantially higher profit and represents better use of shareholders fund.
It is a no brainer.
They either had to do what B & S has done and secure market share by purchasing the end users of their engines with the long term plan of shifting all production to China or exit the market.
They chose the honourable alternative.
More strength to their arm.
With some luck this might start some conversation & thought in the population that there is a consequence every time they open their wallets.
The unfortunate down side is another few thousand hard working people will be out of work due wholey & solely to the greed & selfishness of others.
#8
JGGMC
JGGMC
no surprising. SUBARUS are rarely seen in Texas.
#9
cpurvis
cpurvis
Stranger things have happened.
Caterpillar abandoned the heavy truck market when they were holding about a 40% market share. They claimed ever increasing emissions regulations were to blame.
Caterpillar abandoned the heavy truck market when they were holding about a 40% market share. They claimed ever increasing emissions regulations were to blame.
#10
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Unless you are involved in research & development , most have less than no idea about the monumental costs involved and the amount of time needed to find solutions then impliment them.
In many cases it can take decades to recover the costs from the previous upgrade in which time the EPA decides you have to make 2 more.
Because the market is so competiative, no 2 factories will share their research results but no single one can afford to do the research.
Don't know where you got the 40% from, that sound way too high.
Advertisers do all sorts of tricks with figures like setting upper & lower limits that include their most popular engine and exclude their competitors most popular engines.
Or start & end dates for the previous year that includes the oppositions new engine release . Wholesale sales so a switch to their engine ups their figures or retail sales so a switch to a competitors engine is excluded.
I doubt that any manufacturer would ever have 40% of the overall market, then, now or any time in the future unless we end up with only one brand of engine.
A simple example is BSA's claim of 1 in 4 motorcycles were BSA.
This was true at the end of WW II as all of the European factories had been bombed into oblivion so the 4 was basically UK, USA, Canada , Spain & tiny Australia.
Post WW II there was a fuel shortage and most European countries set a size limit between 100 cc to 250 cc. and the USA's biggest factory Indian closed down because Harlies were so cheap they could not compete.
So after WWII it was 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc )
Then it went to 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc and excluding scooters ).
Then it went to 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc and excluding scooters and step throughs )
So right up till the late 60's the BSA group (included Triumph & Ariel by then ) still maintained the false 1 in 4 claim where as by then they were less than 5% of total world production if you included all 2 wheelers.
In many cases it can take decades to recover the costs from the previous upgrade in which time the EPA decides you have to make 2 more.
Because the market is so competiative, no 2 factories will share their research results but no single one can afford to do the research.
Don't know where you got the 40% from, that sound way too high.
Advertisers do all sorts of tricks with figures like setting upper & lower limits that include their most popular engine and exclude their competitors most popular engines.
Or start & end dates for the previous year that includes the oppositions new engine release . Wholesale sales so a switch to their engine ups their figures or retail sales so a switch to a competitors engine is excluded.
I doubt that any manufacturer would ever have 40% of the overall market, then, now or any time in the future unless we end up with only one brand of engine.
A simple example is BSA's claim of 1 in 4 motorcycles were BSA.
This was true at the end of WW II as all of the European factories had been bombed into oblivion so the 4 was basically UK, USA, Canada , Spain & tiny Australia.
Post WW II there was a fuel shortage and most European countries set a size limit between 100 cc to 250 cc. and the USA's biggest factory Indian closed down because Harlies were so cheap they could not compete.
So after WWII it was 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc )
Then it went to 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc and excluding scooters ).
Then it went to 1 in 4 motorcycles ( over 100cc and excluding scooters and step throughs )
So right up till the late 60's the BSA group (included Triumph & Ariel by then ) still maintained the false 1 in 4 claim where as by then they were less than 5% of total world production if you included all 2 wheelers.
#11
cpurvis
I don't remember where I got it either but with essentially only three engine manufacturers (Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar; Mack makes their own engines), why would 40% be so unrealistic? What do you suppose Cummins' market share is now?
cpurvis
Don't know where you got the 40% from, that sound way too high.
Advertisers do all sorts of tricks with figures like setting upper & lower limits that include their most popular engine and exclude their competitors most popular engines.
Or start & end dates for the previous year that includes the oppositions new engine release . Wholesale sales so a switch to their engine ups their figures or retail sales so a switch to a competitors engine is excluded.
I doubt that any manufacturer would ever have 40% of the overall market, then, now or any time in the future unless we end up with only one brand of engine.
I don't remember where I got it either but with essentially only three engine manufacturers (Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar; Mack makes their own engines), why would 40% be so unrealistic? What do you suppose Cummins' market share is now?
#12
B
bertsmobile1
Firstly the USA is not the entire world and the USA imports a lot of trucks , particularly in the 2 to 6 ton classes which are fitted with foreign made engines.
You also omitted IH who own the Navistar diesel plant that supplied engines to Ford , Dodge and a variety of agricultural factories.
Perkins which while owned by Cat still makes diesels in the USA for off road & Argentina for road use and in Japan for cars.
Ford had 3 diesel engines it made itself although down here they were not that popular.They also fitted Navistars & Cummings
The F series down here ( so I suppose in the USA as well ) was available with a Ford branded diesel engine although they were very similar looking to the Iseki diesel engine , possible a rebadge.
Europe used diesel engines almost exclusively for all trucks over 2 ton and a lot of these got imported into the USA.
SO Cat many have had 40% of a particular segment of the market but not entire diesel engine market.
And lets not overlook off road diesel engines used in rail, marine, mining, generators and of course road plant tractors.
When Cat took over Perkins in the 80's back when all CEO's were innoculated with the idiot "own the market" horizontal intergration idology Cat claimed to be the biggest diesel engine maker , IN THE WESTERN WORLD, convienently ignoring Russia, China Etc.
It would be a close call, but I rater feel that the EU would make more road diesel engines for trucks than the USA as a lot of US trucks still run petrol engines & Europe has been almost exclusively diesel since to 70's
B
bertsmobile1
I don't remember where I got it either but with essentially only three engine manufacturers (Cummins, Detroit, Caterpillar; Mack makes their own engines), why would 40% be so unrealistic? What do you suppose Cummins' market share is now?
Firstly the USA is not the entire world and the USA imports a lot of trucks , particularly in the 2 to 6 ton classes which are fitted with foreign made engines.
You also omitted IH who own the Navistar diesel plant that supplied engines to Ford , Dodge and a variety of agricultural factories.
Perkins which while owned by Cat still makes diesels in the USA for off road & Argentina for road use and in Japan for cars.
Ford had 3 diesel engines it made itself although down here they were not that popular.They also fitted Navistars & Cummings
The F series down here ( so I suppose in the USA as well ) was available with a Ford branded diesel engine although they were very similar looking to the Iseki diesel engine , possible a rebadge.
Europe used diesel engines almost exclusively for all trucks over 2 ton and a lot of these got imported into the USA.
SO Cat many have had 40% of a particular segment of the market but not entire diesel engine market.
And lets not overlook off road diesel engines used in rail, marine, mining, generators and of course road plant tractors.
When Cat took over Perkins in the 80's back when all CEO's were innoculated with the idiot "own the market" horizontal intergration idology Cat claimed to be the biggest diesel engine maker , IN THE WESTERN WORLD, convienently ignoring Russia, China Etc.
It would be a close call, but I rater feel that the EU would make more road diesel engines for trucks than the USA as a lot of US trucks still run petrol engines & Europe has been almost exclusively diesel since to 70's
#13
cpurvis
cpurvis
Excuse the hell out of me for bringing it up, Mr. NIT PICK.
#14
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Hey,
You asked me why I doubted the 40% number & I gave my reasons.
Don't get cranky cause you don't like my answer.
If you feel it is wrong then prove it.
I am always happy to be proven wrong because after that I would be right.
Large companies always like to inflate their size & importance, if nothing else, it gives investors confidence & pushes up the share price.
For a long while Cat was skating on very thin ice as they went on a massive buying spree from 2000 onwards with borrowed money.
In another life I was involved in foundry.
I keep an interest in foundry business world wide & subscribe to a few trade journals.
During the Obama government there were 2 gob smacking announcements out of the USA
First was the new GMH Alloy foundry in Michigan , the first totally new foundry to be built in the USA for nearly 20 years, opened in 2017
The other was Cats new foundry in Brazil that was at the time the biggest iron foundry on the planet, to make very large diesel engines for shipping, power plants & mining.
The blurb associated with this was they were abandoning their road diesel plants in the USA in favour of their subsiduries in Russia & Europe and the join ventures in China.
Last year a bigger plant was announced to be built in China but as they need to build 2 power stations first, it might be a while before it is up & running.
A lot of automotive companies are getting out of the automotive industry.
EPA regulations are making it harder to manufacture in 1st world countries and astute managers can see that ultimately they will not be able to compete with China & India while maintaining reasonable profit levels.
So better to jump now to a sector where you can turn a good profit than to hang on too long & end up like Tecumseh.
Briggs have seen the writing on the wall and are slowly exiting the USA , doing joint ventures in China & India while vertically intergrating to keep sufficient demand for their engines to remain a minor player in the mower industry.
You asked me why I doubted the 40% number & I gave my reasons.
Don't get cranky cause you don't like my answer.
If you feel it is wrong then prove it.
I am always happy to be proven wrong because after that I would be right.
Large companies always like to inflate their size & importance, if nothing else, it gives investors confidence & pushes up the share price.
For a long while Cat was skating on very thin ice as they went on a massive buying spree from 2000 onwards with borrowed money.
In another life I was involved in foundry.
I keep an interest in foundry business world wide & subscribe to a few trade journals.
During the Obama government there were 2 gob smacking announcements out of the USA
First was the new GMH Alloy foundry in Michigan , the first totally new foundry to be built in the USA for nearly 20 years, opened in 2017
The other was Cats new foundry in Brazil that was at the time the biggest iron foundry on the planet, to make very large diesel engines for shipping, power plants & mining.
The blurb associated with this was they were abandoning their road diesel plants in the USA in favour of their subsiduries in Russia & Europe and the join ventures in China.
Last year a bigger plant was announced to be built in China but as they need to build 2 power stations first, it might be a while before it is up & running.
A lot of automotive companies are getting out of the automotive industry.
EPA regulations are making it harder to manufacture in 1st world countries and astute managers can see that ultimately they will not be able to compete with China & India while maintaining reasonable profit levels.
So better to jump now to a sector where you can turn a good profit than to hang on too long & end up like Tecumseh.
Briggs have seen the writing on the wall and are slowly exiting the USA , doing joint ventures in China & India while vertically intergrating to keep sufficient demand for their engines to remain a minor player in the mower industry.
#15
R
Romore
R
Romore
Interesting that Briggs is moving their Vanguard production to the U.S. now that the agreement with Daihatsu has come to an end. The only engines built in Asia for the North American market will be the Intek horizontal singles.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Because manufacturing in Japan is more expensive than manufacturing in the USA and then there is the shipping costs.
Vanguards out of Japan also went down here & into Europe.
However they have mostly been replaced by either Chinese engines ( cheaper ) or Kawasaki ( better )
Diahatsu is also exiting the small engine sector.
Briggs have at least one factory in China because we get a lot of push mowers down here with Briggs engines.
The Chinese engines have their numbers electro etched into the crankcase just behind & below the carb.
Japan has been outsourcing manufacturing for decades.
The most successful motorcycle in history, the Honda 9 / 110 step through is made in the Phillipines & Vietnam as is most of their motorcycles under 250cc.
It is amazing to think that 40 years ago Japan was a low cost manufacturing country, bankrupted by WW II.
So in the space of a single lifetime their economy has gone from low cost cheap manufactures, to design & outsourcing through to investment & high cost manufacturing.
Something that the UK took near 200 years to do & the US is part way through and our useless pollies aspire towards.
Vanguards out of Japan also went down here & into Europe.
However they have mostly been replaced by either Chinese engines ( cheaper ) or Kawasaki ( better )
Diahatsu is also exiting the small engine sector.
Briggs have at least one factory in China because we get a lot of push mowers down here with Briggs engines.
The Chinese engines have their numbers electro etched into the crankcase just behind & below the carb.
Japan has been outsourcing manufacturing for decades.
The most successful motorcycle in history, the Honda 9 / 110 step through is made in the Phillipines & Vietnam as is most of their motorcycles under 250cc.
It is amazing to think that 40 years ago Japan was a low cost manufacturing country, bankrupted by WW II.
So in the space of a single lifetime their economy has gone from low cost cheap manufactures, to design & outsourcing through to investment & high cost manufacturing.
Something that the UK took near 200 years to do & the US is part way through and our useless pollies aspire towards.