post proof of bad ethanol problems

den052 said:
Well this is quite a long thread and arguing for or against Ethanol is not going to convince anyone either way. However, old equipment is not designed to run on Ethanol period. Newest and greatest vehicles survive fine with it. Someone made the statement that Ethanol increases gas mileage and it doesn't. Gas mileage suffers a little with E85. Don't know if the price difference for E85 and the negative gas mileage reduction would offset the cheaper price or not. I have been trying to get my son to compute a tank of E85 and Regular. His mileage computer indicates a reduction of about 5-10 mpg with E85. Experts will agree that E85 is not as efficient as Gasoline but it is cheaper per gallon.

I know as a diesel mechanic that the Ultra low sulfur diesel fuels shrink rubber seals in injection systems and the older diesels start to leak diesel fuel externally from the injection pumps. A way to temporarily stop the leakage is to add about 1 gal of E85 to a 20 gallon tank of Diesel Fuel. The rubber o rings swell up a little and stop leaking for about 3 to 6 weeks. This causes no harm to the injection system. The way to cure the leaks permanently is to disassemble the injection pump and install new o rings and rubber seals. The experts have found that somehow, rubber parts that were used with sulfated diesel fuel and is now subject to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel causes the rubber to shrink. A pump overhauled with NEW rubber seals (same material), but uses only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel apparently is not subject to the leakage problem. But I know for a fact that E85 will temporarily fix the leakage by swelling the rubber seals back to normal for a WHILE.

Older machines using Ethanol in gasoline may have problems. Newer equipment designed to run on it won't, PERIOD.
Experts also will tell you not to run E85 in cars not designed for it as it will cause certain parts to fail as the parts weren't designed to be run on E85. So big question is: 10-15 percent Ethanol is ok, but 85 percent is not? I still think older equipment is not designed to run on either mixture mainly because of sealing problems.
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No...."I said" ethanol "decreases" gas mileage on large engine applications. My vehicles are by no means "new"(1995 Chevy Silverado with a 350 V8 and a 2001 Lincoln LS with a 4.0L V8). The Lincoln "requires" 91+ Octane but I had always used Amoco Premium in both vehicles since buying them new. I am averaging approx. 5mpg less mileage in the Lincoln and 4MPG less in the Chevy truck since I began using the 93 Octane ethanol in both vehicles. Soooooo....I am "burning more gas" to go the same distance as I did with pure gasoline and paying more per gallon. What about this picture doesn't seem right?????
So, I guess the solution(that the EPA would recommend) is that EVERYBODY junk their "pre-ethanol manufactured" vehicles and buy a new flex fuel vehicle. Sorry......not an option.
 
exotion said:
E85 is newer and cars made for it boast better milage. Cars not designed for it are not going to get the milage benefit.. just like cars not made for e10 didn't get the milage boost. Manufacturers are telling people to not rib e85 because it makes cars not made for it run rough due to timing issues.... It would be like burning premium in a regular car.

I am wondering about the quality of parts issue. Engines are not made the same way they used to be but technology has come leaps and strides. According to my research newer plastics are of a better quality with a higher melting temp, less harmful chemicals (bpa), and lighter weight. Rubber seems to have taken a dip looks like most fuel lines and rubber is not even fully rubber anymore. It's a polyrubber reinforced with a netting. The amount of rubber in our rubber (including vehicle tires) is less than 30%. It's a mix of plastic and other by products that changes by manufacturer. I am having a hard time finding the ingredient lists for basic rubber fuel lines.

Wondering if these by products could be damaged by ethonol?
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Obviously, I'm the only boat owner in this thread:0)
Soooooooo.....everyone would recommend that I begin using E10(E15 when it's forced upon us), or maybe even E85 in my 1999 125hp 2-stroke Mercury outboard????? Or gut the fuel tank system and replace all gas lines, etc. with ethanol-friendly components. Or better yet, just junk my boat that has been garage kept for 15 years, has < 100 hours on the water(my wife & I just recently retired and NOW we can really USE the boat) and still looks/performs like a brand new boat(has never seen an ounce of ethanol gasoline in it's tank). I despise the EPA for putting me in a position like this!!!!!!!
 
pjturchen said:
Very good! We grow plenty of corn here in Colorado. The expansion at high altitude doesn't add up. If you take a gas sample as is with 10% ethanol and a separate sample of 100% ethanol in two plastic containers. You will find mass expansion of the gas sample while the ethanol sample has no expansion. The first car built was designed to run on ethanol. It even had an adjustable carburetor in case you were running a blend. If Henry Ford could build a vehicle like this during his time then what is the issue now. Big oil will have you believe this that and the other. I can send over factual studies and testing that have proven the gas quality from refiners is far worse as the years have moved along. Because of that poor quality it is destroying fuel system components. The state of Colorado has plenty of feed yards around here that have thousands of head of cattle that absolutely love the feed. The price is competitive and have been feeding this for 10 years or better. Please tell me that a state such as Colorado who is a little behind the agriculture times is not doing better than Tennessee when it comes to farming & feeding. I can get you the information if you would like? I'm not here to start rants or raves about anything really. Yes I do work for the industry and it has proven itself more than enough. I just want to reach out to people like you and get the information in your hands. If anything get you more contacts for you to do your own investigative research.

[email protected]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
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That all sounds really good....now read my earlier post about my 1999 boat and give me some solid advice based upon what YOU would do:0)
 
Im sure this will not be proof either but here it goes. My son and I changed an 1997 eclipse GST to E-85 for racing. We to did not believe the severity of ethanol problems they say you can have. I do now. Now just a little bit about the fuel lines in the eclipse. Almost all of the line is hard line. Just a few places where rubber fuel line is. So back the the build. We rebuild the motor to except the higher horse power we were expecting. Going to around 600 wheel HP. After completing and putting in the car we spent a few weeks tuning it to run with E-85. Then the problems started. Cutting out and not getting the HP we expected. Pulled the fuel injectors and put in new set and all was great again. Then about a week later same problem. Took injectors out and found gas to have a slight black tint. Asked all the guys that have done the E-85 change over about this. They ask one question. Did you change your fuel lines to ethanol fuel lines? Answer was no. There is less than 2ft of rubber fuel line why not change it. Taking the old line off I could tell the line was way more deteriorated than normal. One piece even broke in half when pulling it off. After lines where replaced and fuel injectors cleaned problem has never returned. Plus I also did a google search and clicked images, Thousand of them and some that even did testing on the damage to find what it was. You have been very lucky and Im glad for you but this is what I have seen for myself. I myself moved to 91 in all my mowers, weedeaters, and blower. Use less gas(I used to run around 3.5 gal of gas a week now down to 2.75) and could protect my equipment. Win Win for me.
 
Rivets said:
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.

Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.

Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.

For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.

Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.

Please. Remember to read my signature.
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You guys seem to be on top of things. Let me ask you about my Dual Force. The drive wheels drag when I pull the machine back words. I have replaced the little mechanical rockers in the drive wheels and the plastic washers that they ride in but it didnt change anything. Any help with this problem would be appreciated. Thanks. BL
 
How about you starting a new thread in the right section rather than tacking it onto a 12 page thread that has noting to do with rear wheel drag on a SP walk behind.
 
Carscw said:
Nice story but you can not do a test like this with just one mower it would not prove anything.

You would need two mowers same make and model both brand new one with ethanol and one without. I bet they both end up the same.


Ok a man brings his blower to a pawn shop starts it to show it runs. They put it in the back room with gas still in it. 120 days later after he does not come back for it they put it on the floor to sell 5 people start it in the next month still on the old gas. Now you go in and buy it and add more has and it runs just fine for the next year. How can this be? I will tell how.
Because this is all made up bull**** from the mower builders to explain why the bellow grade cheap **** the use to build their mowers falls apart in a year.

I have mowers out back that sit for months I can go start any of them and cut the grass with no problems.

For many years we would go buy stuff to add to our gas well guess what it all has ethanol in it.

So still no one can prove that ethanol does any harm.

(( cowboy up and get over it ))
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I don't have a picture(wish I did) but my walk behind mower wouldn't run after sitting for a couple of months. Took it to my local dealer and he pulled the carb off and put the carb in an ultrasonic cleaner. While it was running we looked at the bowl and it was full of white corn starch. He said it was from the ethanol. He was able to save the carb but the next year he had to replace it. And that was with using Stabil. Ask any small engine shop about ethanol gas and how it helps keep them busy.
 
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