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Just bought a Fram Ultra (synthetic) filter #XG4967 for my new Raptor 52" w/ 23hp Kawa engine based on reference to a "Agrimetal BWSP 180 w/Kawasaki 23 HP V-Twin Engine" in Fram's application list. It assumed it would be a match but further checking shows the Fram to have a gasket OD of 2.41" while the Kawa 49065-7007 is 2.75". Thread size is the same. If the gasket surface on the engine will fit the smaller OD filter it should work okay, I would assume, but I can't check without removing the filter and I'm not ready to service it just yet. I picked this filter since Walmart carries it and my Lowe's, who carries Kawa filters, is not as conveniently located. Any help would be appreciated before I return the Fram filter.

You've got a new machine. I'd suggest a Kawi filter or at least get a Wix or Napa Gold if you can get one that fits.

Firstly to answer your question.
Measure the inner diameter of the machined surface that the rubber ring seals against.
If it is smaller then the rubber ring it will physically fit in the space.
I have no opinion about filters by brand.
The are a lot more complicated than most would think.
Monkeys with video cameras but no understanding of materials technology like to cut them up & post videos about what they found.

I use nothing but filters sourced from my aftermarket suppliers.
In the USA you have 4 major ones , Oregon, Prime Line, Stens & Rotary.
Down here all of their stuff has a full 12 month warranty & I would imagine what we get would be the same as what you get.

Because of EU recycling laws Fram filters are made from different materials to those of Wix or Champion.
I am yet to see some one apraise one who actually knows the physical properties of the materials used.

Darryl G said:

Fram filters are the worst. You've got a new machine. I'd suggest a Kawi filter or at least get a Wix or Napa Gold if you can get one that fits.

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The low-end Frams are the worst. Their Ultra (synthetic) filters are among the best. Do your research. I don't want to argue filter virtue in this thread and would only like to get info on gasket fitment. TIA.

iclick said:

The low-end Frams are the worst. Their Ultra (synthetic) filters are among the best. Do your research. I don't want to argue filter virtue in this thread and would only like to get info on gasket fitment. TIA.

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How hard is it to just get a Kawasaki filter that fits? Really. Brand new machine and you're screwing around with buying multiple filters and posting on-line for help. SMH. Do as you please...

bertsmobile1 said:

Measure the inner diameter of the machined surface that the rubber ring seals against.
If it is smaller then the rubber ring it will physically fit in the space.

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I just bought my Raptor and will do an oil change probably in April after five hours of use, as per the manual. I'll need to return the Fram sooner than that if it won't fit and was hoping to get some insight here ahead of time. I will call Fram on Monday and if I can't get any solid info from them I'll return it and buy a Wix, sold by a nearby O'Reilly's, as I know they fit and are good filters. I have nothing against Kawasaki filters except they're overpriced ($16 locally) and are not as easy to find locally. I'm wary of ordering from Amazon because they may be knock-offs. A friend is a lawn pro and uses B&S filters in his Hustler, so I could also go that route.

Darryl G said:

How hard is it to just get a Kawasaki filter that fits? Really. Brand new machine and you're screwing around with buying multiple filters and posting on-line for help. SMH. Do as you please...

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I'm new to this forum and have obviously come to the wrong place for help. My mistake.

No, you're just being penny-wise and pound-foolish. Darrel gave you good advice--listen to him. I'll tell you right now that I wouldn't put a filter on an engine with a gasket mis-match like that.

Iclick, you came to this forum asking for help from people in the know. Then when you get answers you don’t agree with, you criticize the responders. You came to the right forum, just came with the wrong attitude. Most the the techs and pros on this site will recommend using the engine maker brand, especially while in the warranty period. In my opinion you can do what ever you attitude tells you to, but don’t badmouth the people on this site who are trying to help you by answering your questions.

You came to this forum asking for help from people in the know. Then when you get answers you don’t agree with, you criticize the responders.

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I asked a question about gasket fitment and did not get an answer to that question. I didn't ask for moral guidance. I only use synthetic filters in my vehicles, including mowers, and would never go on a forum telling others they are wrong for choosing a paper-element filter like the OEM Kawasaki filter. The only critique I offered was to the replier who stated that all Fram filters were junk, which is not true. Calling him out is not attacking him, and some research will bear out that point.

Most the the techs and pros on this site will recommend using the engine maker brand, especially while in the warranty period. In my opinion you can do what ever you attitude tells you to, but don’t badmouth the people on this site who are trying to help you by answering your questions.

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Again, I only called out the replier who made the blanket claim about Fram. Whether the Fram Ultra measures up to his standards wasn't part of my inquiry. I simply thought someone had used that Fram Ultra oil filter in their Hustler mower and could provide feedback on fitment. I didn't ask for moral guidance but do listen to what others say, like Kremeneon who gave some useful info on Wix filters on a thread from last fall. I will probably return the Fram Ultra and patronize my local O'Reilly's store who carries Wix and are close by. Penny wise and pound foolish? Why buy a conventional Kawasaki paper filter for $16 at Lowe's when I can get a better synthetic filter at a more conveniently located store for $12? For my money I'll pick the latter, and it won't affect my warranty.

I never said ALL Fram filters are crap, and even if I did I'm entitled to my opinion. I bet you come crying here when your motor blows up because you used an off-spec filter and vegetable oil you got for free from the restaurant dump barrel. :laughing:

At least buy a filter that cross references. Why buy some random filter that doesn't fit months before you even need it for a brand new machine? In the time you've wasted here you could already have the proper filter. :smile:

Yep, penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Filter Derangement Syndrome is common on internet forums.

iclick said:

I asked a question about gasket fitment and did not get an answer to that question. I didn't ask for moral guidance. I only use synthetic filters in my vehicles, including mowers, and would never go on a forum telling others they are wrong for choosing a paper-element filter like the OEM Kawasaki filter. The only critique I offered was to the replier who stated that all Fram filters were junk, which is not true. Calling him out is not attacking him, and some research will bear out that point.



Again, I only called out the replier who made the blanket claim about Fram. Whether the Fram Ultra measures up to his standards wasn't part of my inquiry. I simply thought someone had used that Fram Ultra oil filter in their Hustler mower and could provide feedback on fitment. I didn't ask for moral guidance but do listen to what others say, like Kremeneon who gave some useful info on Wix filters on a thread from last fall. I will probably return the Fram Ultra and patronize my local O'Reilly's store who carries Wix and are close by. Penny wise and pound foolish? Why buy a conventional Kawasaki paper filter for $16 at Lowe's when I can get a better synthetic filter at a more conveniently located store for $12? For my money I'll pick the latter, and it won't affect my warranty.

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Well you did get an answer to your question.
It was just not a yes no type of answer .
There is a lot of variation in the machining of the filter housing.
A customer has a Vanguard that nothing other than an original B & S filter will screw onto & seal.
The same customer has 3 other mowers where the after market filters fit perfectly.
Some Kawasaki engines will only take the slightly smaller Kawasaki ( aftermarket ) filter because there is a hole in the casting so the machined face will not seal against the filter.
SO you have to remove your filter & check.
The chances of finding some one with the same machine & engine using the filter you asked about is quite low.

FWIW with all USA threaded oil filters I fit the B & S large filter from Gripskies which is usually a Rotary branded filter, or a Stens filter depending who was cheaper when I placed the order.
The only time I do not do this is when the filter can not fit into the available space or the customer specifically asks for a machine branded filter.
I have only been fixing mowers for 5 years but am yet to find one where the filter caused an engine failure.
Lack of oil , yes . Bad filter, no. Lack of oil then a top up & claiming it was the filter , yes , but those customer are now ex-customers. I do not lie to them & I will not have them lie to me.
On the engines that failed under warranty, the makers all tried to refuse warranty because I had fitted after market filters.
I refferred this to my suppliers and the engine suppliers backed right down & made the repairs or supplied me with the parts needed as the case might be.

Oil filters are some thing that very few really understand & I only KNOW enough to be sure I am not educated enough to pass a valid judgement.
And I have no idea what a "Synthetic" filter is considering the only "natural" oil filter is sand or diatomacous earths.
The oil filter on most mower engines is not particularly critical unless you are a mowing contractor because under normal circumstances you will never do enough hours for particulate contaminated oil to do a significant amount of damage to the engine.
Chemical corrosion from leaving dirty oil in there on the off season or even worse using auto oils in there for too long are a much bigger problem than the brand of filters used.
Vertical shaft engines are really basic & very cheap.


You are right to call out any one who makes blanket statements about particular brands without presenting any sort of proof to the claim.
You might note I also refuted that claim but in a much more subtle fashion

Iclick,

I'm only going to jump in with a very short piece. Kawasaki does not build filters. Napa does not build filters. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan (Datsun), KIA, Honda, Yamaha, Mercury, Johnson. To shorten this, not one engine manufacturer builds, makes or utilizes magic to produce petroleum filters of any kind, design, etc.

Only thing you need from the manufacturers are their specifications which means if you purchase a filter of any brand, which of the half dozen manufacturers of filters on the market today, the branding is painted on. Make sure you use a filter of equal or greater specifications and save as much money as you can. Bert is right, not many filters on the market that aren't good.

Same for petroleum. Use the correct specifications as not one engine in existence today can read.

For anyone I may have insulted, it is not intentional. My experience as both a manufacturer and distributor placing big names on our filters. Filter manufacturers are made to order producers in whatever branding required. Same for petroleum. Now, there are different bases of petroleum. Even with different bases, those petroleum basis make products within specifications.

Good luck,

Max

bertsmobile1 said:

SO you have to remove your filter & check. The chances of finding some one with the same machine & engine using the filter you asked about is quite low.

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I agree it was a long shot but wanted to give it a try anyway. Removing the filter now isn't practical since I won't be ready to do that for another few months and I want the new filter in hand when I do it. The solution is to return the Fram and go with another filter that meets the factory specs. I bought the Fram because its application list showed a 23hp Kawasaki engine for a leaf blower (see OP), but I noticed later that it didn't look like the FR691V, so I looked more closely at the specs. That's when I noticed the gasket ID/OD to be a bit smaller.

On the engines that failed under warranty, the makers all tried to refuse warranty because I had fitted after market filters. I refferred this to my suppliers and the engine suppliers backed right down & made the repairs or supplied me with the parts needed as the case might be.

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They can't do that unless the aftermarket filter contributed to the failure (Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act). You make a good point, though, that in the event of an engine failure using an OEM filter would nix the possibility of backtalk from mfrs. like you describe and thus the hassle of convincing them otherwise should that event arise.

And I have no idea what a "Synthetic" filter is considering the only "natural" oil filter is sand or diatomacous earths.
The oil filter on most mower engines is not particularly critical unless you are a mowing contractor because under normal circumstances you will never do enough hours for particulate contaminated oil to do a significant amount of damage to the engine.

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Synthetic materials are more durable than conventional paper and generally cost more. Mobil1, Amsoil, and Royal Purple are a few examples. In this case conventional mower filters cost more because they have the mfr's logo on them, which I guess demands a premium in the eyes of the mfr. Your point that it may be overkill is understood, but in my case I also see a cost saving and convenience factor. The Lowe's that sells Kawasaki filters is much further away than either Walmart (Fram) or O'Reilly (Wix). Better, cheaper, closer.

Chemical corrosion from leaving dirty oil in there on the off season or even worse using auto oils in there for too long are a much bigger problem than the brand of filters used.

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This point prompts an OT question, if you don't mind. I did routine maintenance including oil/filter changes on my 12-YO Craftsman mower (B&S IC engine) once per year in spring, which is about 20 hrs of running time. I've been considering changing that schedule to fall for the reason you mention above. I use it about once per week for about 45 min. from around March thru October, then once in January to mulch leaves. I used Mobil1 15w50 in that mower.

You are right to call out any one who makes blanket statements about particular brands without presenting any sort of proof to the claim.
You might note I also refuted that claim but in a much more subtle fashion

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Over the past 20 years I've seen lots of blanket claims on car and motorcycle forums, as well as "my [insert product here] is better than yours" arguments that are usually offered without evidence. The notion that all Frams are poor quality is a common misconception, as the inexpensive lines are rather cheap in quality, but the Ultra is highly regarded by those who rank filters. I've used Fram Ultras on vehicles for years with no issues, but I wouldn't really expect issues that I would notice with even the cheapest of filters. Call it peace of mind.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

mhavanti said:

Kawasaki does not build filters. Napa does not build filters. Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Nissan (Datsun), KIA, Honda, Yamaha, Mercury, Johnson. To shorten this, not one engine manufacturer builds, makes or utilizes magic to produce petroleum filters of any kind, design, etc.

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Champion Labs makes many of them. I can't find info on who makes Kawasaki filters.

This point prompts an OT question, if you don't mind. I did routine maintenance including oil/filter changes on my 12-YO Craftsman mower (B&S IC engine) once per year in spring, which is about 20 hrs of running time. I've been considering changing that schedule to fall for the reason you mention above. I use it about once per week for about 45 min. from around March thru October, then once in January to mulch leaves. I used Mobil1 15w50 in that mower.

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The best oil is the oil you just took out of your engine.
Now it is impractible to change the oil every time you use the engine but that would be best for the engine.

Contaminants in oil are both physical & chemical in an ideal world the addative package would neutralize or entrap these for the entire life of the oil.
Add to that there is a thing called gravity.
When an engine is not being used contaminants tend to settle out according to their specific gravity.
Much of these are electrolytic so facilitate galvanic corrosion.

Thus changing the oil after your last mow for the season is the absolute best time to do it.
Same story for your snow blower, should you have one.

Synthetic materials are more durable than conventional paper and generally cost more. Mobil1, Amsoil, and Royal Purple are a few examples. In this case conventional mower filters cost more because they have the mfr's logo on them, which I guess demands a premium in the eyes of the mfr. Your point that it may be overkill is understood, but in my case I also see a cost saving and convenience factor. The Lowe's that sells Kawasaki filters is much further away than either Walmart (Fram) or O'Reilly (Wix). Better, cheaper, closer.

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Yep, I know what a synthetic oil is, although most are just remanufactured rather than actually synthetic.
However, paper is a synthetic product , we grind down substances to for a pulp then form the pulp into sheet extract the water , compact the fibres, dry it out & you have paper.
You can make it from anything that has fibres from hair ( off any animal ) to plants so what a synthetic filter is frankly is beyond me.
As mentioned before canisters full of various media like sand is a natural filter, all else are not natural & thus synthetic.

bertsmobile1 said:

Thus changing the oil after your last mow for the season is the absolute best time to do it.
Same story for your snow blower, should you have one.

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I'll change my schedule to fall for the annual maintenance. BTW, I've been lubing my wheel bearings on the Craftsman with grease every year (20 hours), but notice some on this forum recommend daily or weekly. That sounds like overkill, but I also read where a reader called Hustler and they said to do when the oil is changed. The manual says "Weekly or 40 hours," which I assume means whichever comes first. So, weekly?

...paper is a synthetic product , we grind down substances to for a pulp then form the pulp into sheet extract the water , compact the fibres, dry it out & you have paper.

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I assume paper elements are considered non-synthetic because they originate from a wood product. I'm not sure what synthetic filter elements are made of, but they are claimed to be more durable.

Iclic............ I have looked at the kawi filters and the Briggs filters ....... I can't tell any difference between the 2 ......

I service a few Hustler raps with Kawi engines and because of warranty I use Kawi filters for my customers.......

I do agree that they are over priced.......

Oregon has the Kawi filter replacement for half the retail price...... I would bet good money that those two filters are made in the same plant, but has different paint on them..........

7 bux beats 14 bux any day.............

Also Kawi has 2 different filters a 2 1/4 inch and a 2 7/8 inch ....... You have the shorter one I think...........

Where you at in Louisiana ??

Hey Bert ~!~!.............Here's a part of your reply earlier........

"Chemical corrosion from leaving dirty oil in there on the off season or even worse using auto oils in there for too long are a much bigger problem than the brand of filters used.
Vertical shaft engines are really basic & very cheap."

I do agree with servicing mowers in the Fall before a winter storage, and I know you are speaking in general......

That doesn't pertain to the OP or anyone down here....... There is no winter downtime for us... We use lawn equipment all winter long.... Less cutting cause the grass grows slower, but still growing....... Winter grass grows like a weed in the garden LOL...........

I service some mowers in the Spring but they keep track of their hours and if hits that mark in December then it gets done......

Anyway that's our climate, so it is what it is down here in Cajun Country Mon Ami ......

Plus Tard ..................

In response to the original question...yes, that is the right Fram filter for your Kawasaki. I have been using the UltraXG4967 on my mower and the 20KW V twin Generac generator for years now. Change both each winter with that filter and Shell Rotella 15/40 HDEO.

I keep a stash of about 4 of these and a couple gallons of oil in case of power outages to keep the generator serviced.

L454S said:

In response to the original question...yes, that is the right Fram filter for your Kawasaki. I have been using the UltraXG4967 on my mower and Generac generator for years now. Change both each winter with that filter and Shell Rotella 15/40 HDEO.

I keep a stash of about 4 of these and a couple gallons of oil in case of power outages to keep the generator serviced.

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That looks like Little Caillou Bayou north of Chauvin ..............

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:

Iclic............ I have looked at the kawi filters and the Briggs filters ....... I can't tell any difference between the 2 .... I service a few Hustler raps with Kawi engines and because of warranty I use Kawi filters for my customers....

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As I mentioned in my OP, a friend who's in the lawn care business uses B&G filters on his Hustler and says the same as you. I see your point on Kawi filters for Kawis as regards any potential warranty issues.

Oregon has the Kawi filter replacement for half the retail price...... I would bet good money that those two filters are made in the same plant, but has different paint on them.....

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Good tip for parts. Bookmarked.

Also Kawi has 2 different filters a 2 1/4 inch and a 2 7/8 inch ....... You have the shorter one I think...........

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Yes, 2.3". Longer ones will fit, though. Wix has 2.3", 2.7", and 3.4"--all with the same mount. I don't see the point of going bigger (more oil, larger filter surface) when I change the oil every 20 hours.

Where you at in Louisiana ??

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Baton Rouge, dat.

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:

That doesn't pertain to the OP or anyone down here....... There is no winter downtime for us... We use lawn equipment all winter long.... Less cutting cause the grass grows slower, but still growing....... Winter grass grows like a weed in the garden LOL...........

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I have St. Augustine and it goes dormant after the first frost, like November thru March. I suppose I could justify a session or two in that period but I don't, as it's usually quite soggy in places this time of year. In March the weeds start sprouting and that's when the mowing season starts. I have down time during that period except for one session in January when I mulch leaves. That keeps me from raking, as I have many trees and my lot is too big to rake. I don't plant winter grass.

Most of my neighbors have Centipede grass and they don't mow in winter either.

L454S said:

In response to the original question...yes, that is the right Fram filter for your Kawasaki. I have been using the UltraXG4967 on my mower and the 20KW V twin Generac generator for years now. Change both each winter with that filter and Shell Rotella 15/40 HDEO. I keep a stash of about 4 of these and a couple gallons of oil in case of power outages to keep the generator serviced.

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Voila! Fate rewards those who are patient.

I just did a search on the Fram site, this time on mowers instead of the specific filter. They don't show a Raptor with Kawi engines (only Kohler) and all references to Kawi engines on Hustler mowers, including the 23hp Kawi engine, match the Extra-Guard PH4967. That's not the Ultra but has the same fitment specs, including gasket size, bypass valve setting, etc. You're using the Ultra XG4967 on your FR691V so that's a match. Thanks!

The 49065-7007 was OE on my FX691V but it was difficult to remove with my filter wrench due to interference with the dip-stick tube. So I run the 49065-4010 on it like I do with my other 2 Kawi engines which are in the FR series. The 7007 is a little shorter and fatter, but my understanding is that the 2 filters have the same filter media volume and have the same seal and are interchangeable for filtration purposes.

Darryl G said:

The 49065-7007 was OE on my FX691V but it was difficult to remove with my filter wrench due to interference with the dip-stick tube.

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Your reply had me going out and looking at the Fram filter I just bought. It's 2.7", not 2.3" like the OEM Kawi filter--something I hadn't noticed. I thought that might be why it didn't match up to the Kawi FR691V, as it's conceivable that some applications might have clearance issues, but the PH4967 does match up and is the same size. Anyway, that's not a problem at all with my Raptor, as I have plenty of room to remove the filter. It'll add an ounce or two of oil to the mix, but that's okay.

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:

That looks like Little Caillou Bayou north of Chauvin ..............

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That is Bayou Francois in Gonzales running through the back yard.

L454S said:

That is Bayou Francois in Gonzales running through the back yard.

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Hey, we're neighbors. I'm just a few miles north of you in SE BR. I have Claycut Bayou running through my back yard.

iclick said:

Hey, we're neighbors. I'm just a few miles north of you in SE BR. I have Claycut Bayou running through my back yard.

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I used to have my biz in Grosse Tete .......... Used to hit a few bars with Johnny Maldo , Rob Sharp and Kelly Lee..... Raw Oysters at Jones creek steakhouse ........ 25 cent oysters on the half shell ........ Yeah boy ..........

https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-490...ocphy=1015319&hvtargid=pla-319925184624&psc=1

why stray from oem parts as important as engine oil filter, at this price i'd purchase at least 3 filters.

mechanic mark said:

https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-490...ocphy=1015319&hvtargid=pla-319925184624&psc=1

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I looked at that item a few days ago and was taken aback by some reports that they are not genuine Kawi filters. The photos provided in a recent feedback bears that out, so I don't know about their authenticity. Others claim they have all the right labels, including "Made in U.S.A." Price is about the same as the Fram Ultra at Walmart. I appreciate your thoughts about staying with OEM, at least during the warranty period.

Darryl G said:

https://www.landscaperpro.com/Briggsandkawasakioilfilterlp492932K.aspx

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Thanks. That's another good site to bookmark. Good price on the filters.

mechanic mark said:

https://www.amazon.com/Kawasaki-490...ocphy=1015319&hvtargid=pla-319925184624&psc=1

why stray from oem parts as important as engine oil filter, at this price i'd purchase at least 3 filters.

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I agree. Local Ace Hardware sells Dixie choppers, so they sell Kawasaki service items. Every few months they have super sales, I can only get 3 at a time, but for $7. each, I get the OEM filters stocked up.

7394 said:

I agree. Local Ace Hardware sells Dixie choppers, so they sell Kawasaki service items. Every few months they have super sales, I can only get 3 at a time, but for $7. each, I get the OEM filters stocked up.

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That would last me three years. Will sign up for sale emails.

That's how it works out for me.. :thumbsup:

Lots of good info here, including some useful links to parts suppliers, so thanks to everyone who helped out. I called Fram this AM and they said the XG4967 filter would work if the gasket mates up to the engine properly and doesn't leak. On their site the PH4967 (lower grade filter) shows as a fit for all Kawi engines listed under the Hustler brand, and the XG4967 has the same fitment specs. L454S has used it in his mower and generator, and there's a reference on a Bobstheoilguy.com thread that the PH4967 filter will work.

It's a good argument that using OEM is good during the warranty period, but neither Kawi nor Hustler give any oil filter specs in either engine or mower manuals, neither acceptable brands nor operational specs, just a schedule for changing it. By law they can't refuse warranty service to customer for using an aftermarket product unless it doesn't meet the stated specs or is found to have caused a repair issue. They can dictate a specific part must be used to validate a warranty but in doing so they must provide it free. I do realize they can stlll make waves should an engine repair be required but I see no legal grounds to refuse service.

So, when I do my first oil change I'll use the Fram XG4967 I bought recently. I don't think anyone is wrong here, and I understand the various points of view, but I had to make a decision. :smile:

Don't forget the genuine Kawasaki motor oil. :smile:

Darryl G said:

Don't forget the genuine Kawasaki motor oil. :smile:

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OMG! Plain fossil 30W oil for $10/qt., I''ll bet.

iclick said:

OMG! Plain fossil 30W oil for $10/qt., I''ll bet.

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Of course. I don't know the price, I don't bother to check, lol. I just grab what I need, put it on the counter and give them a card. In a pinch I'll use about any motor oil I have around (10W-30 or 10w40) to top off if I have to but usually it's the straight 30 Kawi oil for changes and topping off. Automotive motor oil is formulated for water-cooled engines, not air-cooled ones. Only my truck and the hydros on my Exmarks get synthetic oil.

Darryl G said:

Of course. I don't know the price, I don't bother to check, lol. I just grab what I need, put it on the counter and give them a card. In a pinch I'll use about any motor oil I have around (10W-30 or 10w40) to top off if I have to but usually it's the straight 30 Kawi oil for changes and topping off. Automotive motor oil is formulated for water-cooled engines, not air-cooled ones. Only my truck and the hydros on my Exmarks get synthetic oil.

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I'll probably use Mobil1 15w50, as most of the mower's use will be in temps of 90° or above and that oil is good from 32-100°+. It's also stable to 350°+, which we should never see in a mower engine. Mowers don't need special mower oil any more than Harleys need special motorcycle oil. I went through that debate for 20 years on Harley forums. I used 20w50 synthetic oil in my two air-cooled Harleys, one logging 106k and the other 66k, and never had any engine problems at all. That oil was not motorcycle-specific.

BTW, every spring and fall Mobil1 has a rebate event--$12 back for 5 qts. with a 10-qt. limit per rebate event. I buy Mobil1 5w30 for my car and truck at Walmart at ~$25 for a 5-qt. jug and will get a rebate for $12 for each jug. That's ~$2.50/qt. for a very good synthetic oil that will work as well in a mower as a Corvette. This spring I'll buy one 5w30 for the car and truck and one 15w50 jug for the mower.

I used Royal Purple 20w50 in my old mower's 22hp B&S IC engine that just ended its 12th season, and it doesn't use any oil between yearly changes. It also didn't incur any repairs except a voltage regulator. The Kawi oil won't hurt anything, of course, if you want to pay the premium. The manual says to use SF, SG, SH, SJ or SL class oil--and that spec covers most any oil you can find in the store.

I think I'll put my trust in what Kawasaki's engineers think is the best oil for their engines over what some guy on the internet says. I'm sure your lubricant pick will be fine though, especially with a 20 hour service interval.

I've got 4 mowers, 5 blowers, 4 string trimmers, 3 hedge trimmers, 3 chain saws and 3 snow blowers and I look to my dealers for support in a pinch to keep me up and running. So sticking with a few brands/dealers and buying my parts and supplies from them puts me in their preferred customer category and simplifies my parts and service needs. It all gets written off on my taxes too. So it's a different situation than the average homeowner.

Darryl G said:

I think I'll put my trust in what Kawasaki's engineers think is the best oil for their engines over what some guy on the internet says. I'm sure your lubricant pick will be fine though, especially with a 20 hour service interval.

I've got 4 mowers, 5 blowers, 4 string trimmers, 3 hedge trimmers, 3 chain saws and 3 snow blowers and I look to my dealers for support in a pinch to keep me up and running. So sticking with a few brands/dealers and buying my parts and supplies from them puts me in their preferred customer category and simplifies my parts and service needs. It all gets written off on my taxes too. So it's a different situation than the average homeowner.

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You've got quite an inventory! Your plan seems well thought out and it obviously works well for you. My purchases for lawn equipment and supplies wouldn't contribute much to a dealer's bottom line and I'm not tied to any one dealer.

I hope I didn't come across as pushing any particular brand of oil, as there are many good ones to choose from. I've used Royal Purple for years in my cars, truck, motorcycles, and mowers--but I've settled on Mobil1 for my car and truck for the time being, mostly because of its reputation and the bi-yearly rebates they offer. Also, my car mfr. recommends M1 for street and track use. I haven't been using M1 in the mowers, but will probably go with 15w50 for the new Raptor, that is unless I find a compelling reason to use something else.

On another subject, I'm a gauge junkie and would like to have an oil-temp gauge for the mower, but can't find one. The drain plug isn't a conventional design so i can't simply find a sender with the right thread size. I did install an hour gauge and have a voltmeter coming in any day now. Those fit conveniently in the two blanks in the control panel, but I don't know where I'd put another gauge.

iclick said:

So, when I do my first oil change I'll use the Fram XG4967 I bought recently. I don't think anyone is wrong here, and I understand the various points of view, but I had to make a decision. :smile:

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Your Owners manual should have that for you, For my Kawasaki FRX651, the OM states to do 1st oil change @ 8 hours to get the break-in oil out.

After my book says 200 hours, but I only put on 25 hours per season, so I change oil & filter end of each mow season. So after over 4 + years of ownership I'm only at 110 hours.

After my book says 200 hours, but I only put on 25 hours per season, so I change oil & filter end of each mow season.

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Isn't the oil to be changed every 100 and the filter every 200?

7394 said:

Your Owners manual should have that for you, For my Kawasaki FRX651, the OM states to do 1st oil change @ 8 hours to get the break-in oil out. After my book says 200 hours, but I only put on 25 hours per season, so I change oil & filter end of each mow season. So after over 4 + years of ownership I'm only at 110 hours.

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I'm with you. My old mower just finished its 12th season and has 233 hours on it, which is about 20 hrs/yr. Here's what the docs for Huster/Kawi say:

Kawi FR691V printed OM: Change the oil every 100 hours and the filter every 200 hours. For me that's every five years for the oil and 10 years for the filter (yeah, sure). There's no mention of an early first oil change.

Kawi FR691V PDF manual: Same as above except specifies the initial oil and filter change to be at eight hours.

Raptor printed OM: Initial oil and filter change at five hours, then "per the engine manufacturer's recommendations" thereafter.

Raptor PDF OM: Initial oil change at five hours (no mention of filter), then every 40 hours thereafter. For the oil filter it says "per the engine manufacturer's recommendations."

This doesn't exactly jibe, now does it. Nonetheless, I'll be doing my first oil and filter change at five hours, then every year (~20 hours) thereafter.

7394 said:

Your Owners manual should have that for you, For my Kawasaki FRX651, the OM states to do 1st oil change @ 8 hours to get the break-in oil out.

After my book says 200 hours, but I only put on 25 hours per season, so I change oil & filter end of each mow season. So after over 4 + years of ownership I'm only at 110 hours.

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Are you sure about the 200 hour mark....??? Is that engine oil and not Hydro oil ???? Just thinking ......

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:

Are you sure about the 200 hour mark....??? Is that engine oil and not Hydro oil ???? Just thinking ......

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That's what my Kawasaki manual says.

I've got an Acura RSX in which they recommend 10K oil changes and 20K filter changes and the filter on that 160 hp engine is smaller than the one on the 23 hp Kaw.

Apparently with the crankcases buttoned up and breathing only filtered air, oil and filters last a lot longer.

I can't imagine not changing the oil filter when doing an oil change regardless of what the manual says. Besides, if you always change it you don't have to worry about whether you changed it the last time.

Keep in mind that if you don't change the filter you're retaining the dirty oil in the filter and mixing it in with your fresh oil. Who would want to do that? Recommend changing filter with every oil change.

I too was surprised to see this recommendation for the filter. I don't recall seeing that since the 60s with some cars of that era--6k oil, 12k filter IIRC. Those cars had canister filters that were much larger than current cartridge types, so maybe the effective media size was a factor. Filters just don't cost enough to justify skipping that step, and it doesn't take much time to add that step while you're probably doing other maintenance at the same time. I do an annual maintenance (oil/filter change, lube, blade sharpening, etc.) once per year (~20 hrs), formerly in spring. Will be doing it in late fall on this mower based on recommendations here.

Quote:

"Mowers don't need special mower oil any more than Harleys need special motorcycle oil. I went through that debate for 20 years on Harley forums. I used 20w50 synthetic oil in my two air-cooled Harleys, one logging 106k and the other 66k, and never had any engine problems at all. That oil was not motorcycle-specific."

Re the Harley and MC specific oil, automotive oil has additives that can cause a clutch to slip under high RPM's WHEN THE ENGINE SHARES IT'S OIL with the ENGINE. IE, Most Japanese bikes...

This is more common in a very high HP machine.

Your Harley clutch uses it's own, SEPARATE oil (fill and drain from the left side clutch cover), so the issue of CLUTCH slippage is non-existent. So regular oil is fine..


Re 20w50 oil, I use that in my GENERATORS as when their used, they could be running days on end, 24/7...
Ran it for 28 hours straight for Hurricane Irma...


Lastly, to throw one last bone into the mix, this is the oil filter I've run in my bike the last 10 years or so. Expensive initially but paid for itself already, many times over:

I wouldn't use anything but semi-synthetic oil in the engine (Motul, 10w40), as it'll red line at 14,000 RPM, 95 HP, so IMO, cutting back on the price of oil or filter is NOT an option I'd personally take..

http://kandpengineering.com/

Darryl G said:

I can't imagine not changing the oil filter when doing an oil change regardless of what the manual says. Besides, if you always change it you don't have to worry about whether you changed it the last time.

Keep in mind that if you don't change the filter you're retaining the dirty oil in the filter and mixing it in with your fresh oil. Who would want to do that? Recommend changing filter with every oil change.

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Darryl, I'm going to rib you a little bit, so don't get mad.

Wasn't it you just a few posts up who said something about relying on engineers' recommendations? 100/200 is what the Kawasaki engineers recommend...:smile:

cpurvis said:

Darryl, I'm going to rib you a little bit, so don't get mad.

Wasn't it you just a few posts up who said something about relying on engineers' recommendations? 100/200 is what the Kawasaki engineers recommend...:smile:

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Yup but this is a practical matter of not having to remember if it was done last time. :smile:

SRTsFZ6 said:

Quote:

"Mowers don't need special mower oil any more than Harleys need special motorcycle oil. I went through that debate for 20 years on Harley forums. I used 20w50 synthetic oil in my two air-cooled Harleys, one logging 106k and the other 66k, and never had any engine problems at all. That oil was not motorcycle-specific."

Re the Harley and MC specific oil, automotive oil has additives that can cause a clutch to slip under high RPM's WHEN THE ENGINE SHARES IT'S OIL with the ENGINE. IE, Most Japanese bikes...

This is more common in a very high HP machine.

Your Harley clutch uses it's own, SEPARATE oil (fill and drain from the left side clutch cover), so the issue of CLUTCH slippage is non-existent. So regular oil is fine..


Re 20w50 oil, I use that in my GENERATORS as when their used, they could be running days on end, 24/7...
Ran it for 28 hours straight for Hurricane Irma...


Lastly, to throw one last bone into the mix, this is the oil filter I've run in my the last 10 years or so. Expensive initially but paid for itself already, many times over:

I wouldn't use anything but semi-synthetic oil in the engine (Motul, 10w40), as it'll red line at 14,000 RPM, 95 HP, so IMO, cutting back on the price of oil or filter is NOT an option I'd personally take..

http://kandpengineering.com/

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And you don't need to have a shower every day / week / month / year either .
You won't die from lack of washing, even more so if you swim ( but not in my pool ) or run around naked ( not in my eyesight ).
And this proves absolutely nothing as dose "I did xyzt miles on virgins donkeys urine in my oil tank without failure.

If you are specifically calling maker branded oil unnecessary well that is fine because HD, Yamaha, Briggs do not make oil & in most cases simply repackage the existing product they had designed the engines to use.
If it was specifically blended for them & them alone it would be hundreds of dollars a gallon, that is just a volume economy thing.

However if you are saying you can put any car oil into an air cooled engine & expect it to function as per manufacturers standard & wear at the same or lower rate then that can only happen if you are using an oil which is a long way over the makers specifications so you are wasting money and a finite resourse, oil or have had one toomany deep & meaning full conversations with the faries at the bottom of the garden.
Almost any oil can be used in almost any engine UNDER SPECIFIC CONDITIONS.
Back in the 70's we ran ATF in the tranny & diffs of the racing cars and we never had a DNF so under your logic that proves you can toss the gear & diff oils away & just run ATF in everything.
However after a season, about 200 hours, the diff & gears were a throw away item.

When it comes to oils, the ONE & ONLY thing that is valid is side by side evaluations in identical engines running under identical conditions which get stripped down & measured for wear & damage.
After that every thing else is as valid as all those TV testimonials of fat people who lost 1/2 their body mass by taking a pill before bed or magic ovens that make you loose weight , vacuum cleaners that cut your cleaning time in half etc etc etc.

I would doubt any persons ability to assess the performance of any oil in a modern motorcycle engine.
Back in the old days when you were talking about 20 to 50 Hp engines a rider could notice performance changes but now days where motorcycle engines have so much power it is next to impossible to put it all to tar without specialist high grip tyres that top riders use for a single season then on sell to wanna bes for the next season who flog them to the hopeless ( me ) 4 seasons on.

As for your super duper oil filter, you have pulled the engine down at every oil change & measured the engine wear then comparred it to the makers spec or it it working because the engine has not gone BANG .



A vertical shaft mower engine is not a motorcycle engine and definately not a water cooled motorcycle engine.
The major requirement , the ability to maintain continious oil film over all parts that move with respect to each other is the same for both engine.
However after that there are a pile of secondary requirement, like the ability to hold water, corrosion resisance etc etc that vary because they are engine or enviroment specific.
Your street bike does not run in any where as dusty condition as your mower does, unless you ride third in line on dirt roads, for a simple & obvious example.
At 14,000 rpm the ability of the oil to resist being flung off is a very high priority, in fact in the 50's it was a limiting factor.
However in a mower engine running at 4,000 rpm it is not so important.
In your mower, the resistance to being wiped off the surfaces is far more important as the cam shaft turns so slow the followers are quite capable of pushing all the oil out of the way.

I realise it is no use talking to you because your mind is totally closed but it is important that you do not confuse the uninformed with your misguided and totally wrong opinions.

SRTsFZ6 said:

Re the Harley and MC specific oil, automotive oil has additives that can cause a clutch to slip under high RPM's WHEN THE ENGINE SHARES IT'S OIL with the ENGINE. IE, Most Japanese bikes... This is more common in a very high HP machine.
Your Harley clutch uses it's own, SEPARATE oil (fill and drain from the left side clutch cover), so the issue of CLUTCH slippage is non-existent. So regular oil is fine..

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You're right on target. I used RP 20w50 synthetic for the engine, a very slick oil, and Castrol GTX 20w50 fossil oil in the primary. Never had any clutch issues and would never suggest using synthetic oil in a Harley primary.

bertsmobile1 said:

And you don't need to have a shower every day / week / month / year either .
You won't die from lack of washing....

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This is true. I learned that in the jungles of Viet Nam where we would often stay for up to a month at a time without a shower. We didn't die but infection was a constant battle. One little scratch could easily turn into an infection.

If you are specifically calling maker branded oil unnecessary well that is fine because HD, Yamaha, Briggs do not make oil & in most cases simply repackage the existing product they had designed the engines to use. If it was specifically blended for them & them alone it would be hundreds of dollars a gallon, that is just a volume economy thing.

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I didn't want to get into an argument earlier, but IMO you're right about this, too. There's nothing exceptional about Kawasaki mower oil or Harley motorcycle oil, except the price.

At 14,000 rpm....

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I never got my Harley up quite that high. :smile:

bertsmobile1 said:

And you don't need to have a shower every day / week / month / year either . WHAT??
You won't die from lack of washing, even more so if you swim ( but not in my pool ) or run around naked ( not in my eyesight ).
And this proves absolutely nothing as dose "I did xyzt miles on virgins donkeys urine in my oil tank without failure. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

If you are specifically calling maker branded oil unnecessary well that is fine because HD, Yamaha, Briggs do not make oil & in most cases simply repackage the existing product they had designed the engines to use.
If it was specifically blended for them & them alone it would be hundreds of dollars a gallon, that is just a volume economy thing.

However if you are saying you can put any car oil into an air cooled engine I DIDN'T SAY THAT??? & expect it to function as per manufacturers standard & wear at the same or lower rate then that can only happen if you are using an oil which is a long way over the makers specifications so you are wasting money and a finite resourse, oil or have had one toomany deep & meaning full conversations with the faries at the bottom of the garden. BEEN DRINKING TONIGHT??
Almost any oil can be used in almost any engine UNDER SPECIFIC CONDITIONS.
Back in the 70's we ran ATF in the tranny & diffs of the racing cars and we never had a DNF GOOD FOR YOU, SO ATF REPLACES 85-90 WT DIFFS??? so under your logic that proves you can toss the gear & diff oils away & just run ATF in everything. DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, YOUR WRITING JUST IGNORANCE NOW..
However after a season, about 200 hours, the diff & gears were a throw away item. OF COURSE THE DIFF FAILED, THE DIFF WASN'T LUBRICATED WITH ATF... ATF IS NOT OIL..

When it comes to oils, the ONE & ONLY thing that is valid is side by side evaluations in identical engines running under identical conditions which get stripped down & measured for wear & damage.
After that every thing else is as valid as all those TV testimonials of fat people who lost 1/2 their body mass by taking a pill before bed or magic ovens that make you loose weight , vacuum cleaners that cut your cleaning time in half etc etc etc. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??

I would doubt any persons ability to assess the performance of any oil in a modern motorcycle engine.
Back in the old days when you were talking about 20 to 50 Hp engines a rider could notice performance changes but now days where motorcycle engines have so much power it is next to impossible to put it all to tar without specialist high grip tyres that top riders use for a single season then on sell to wanna bes for the next season who flog them to the hopeless ( me ) 4 seasons on. SO PUT THE CHEAPEST CRAP IN YOUR ENGINE YOU CAN BUY OR BETTER YET, USED OIL. THEN WRITE ABOUT THE FAILURES(LIKE THE RACE CARS)

As for your super duper oil filter, you have pulled the engine down at every oil change & measured the engine wear then comparred it to the makers spec or it it working because the engine has not gone BANG . DID YOU BOTHER READING THE SPEC'S ON THE FILTERS I POSTED, PROBABLY NOT. MORE OIL FLOW, BETTER FILTRATION, OIL COOLING (VS NONE WITH A STANDARD FILTER), NAW, WE DON'T WANT THAT.




A vertical shaft mower engine is not a motorcycle engine and definately (it's spelled definitly) not a water cooled motorcycle engine. OH REALLY, DIDN'T REALIZE THAT..
The major requirement , the ability to maintain continious (it's spelled continuous) oil film over all parts that move with respect to each other is the same for both engine.
However after that there are a pile of secondary requirement, like the ability to hold water, corrosion resisance (it's spelled resistance) etc etc that vary because they are engine or enviroment (it's spelled environment) specific.
Your street bike does not run in any where as dusty condition as your mower does, unless you ride third in line on dirt roads, for a simple & obvious example. NO IT DOES NOT
At 14,000 rpm the ability of the oil to resist being flung off is a very high priority, in fact in the 50's it was a limiting factor.
However in a mower engine running at 4,000 rpm it is not so important. YOU DO REALIZE THERE IS A GEAR BOX ON THE BIKE AND THE OIL SHEAR IS A MAJOR ISSUE UNLIKE NO GEARS(EXCEPT A CAM SHAFT AND THAT'S LIMITED TO 3,600 RPMS) RIGHT?
In your mower, the resistance to being wiped off the surfaces is far more important as the cam shaft turns so slow the followers are quite capable of pushing all the oil out of the way.

I realise (it's spelled realize) it is no use talking to you because your mind is totally closed [/B]but it is important that you do not confuse the uninformed with your misguided and totally wrong opinions. HOW CAN AN OPINION BE WRONG, IT'S YOUR OPINION-NO ONE ELSES, SHEESH...

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I find it amazing how you can read my mind and come up with all kinds of garbage I didn't post... Simply amazing..

So in your world, dino oil works as well as semi synthetic or full synthetic oil? Because it says so on the bottle? Okay, that's your opinion (as incorrect as it is).

iclick said:

This is true. I learned that in the jungles of Viet Nam where we would often stay for up to a month at a time without a shower. We didn't die but infection was a constant battle. One little scratch could easily turn into an infection.



I didn't want to get into an argument earlier, but IMO you're right about this, too. There's nothing exceptional about Kawasaki mower oil or Harley motorcycle oil, except the price.



I never got my Harley up quite that high. :smile:

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Berts apparently in his own world or he would have known about the HD clutch oil being separate, as long as the HD has heavy enough oil in the ENGINE, it's fine... He's simply posting to post and argue with the country (that's the USA) that doesn't follow the rest of the world..

Darryl G said:

Yup but this is a practical matter of not having to remember if it was done last time. :smile:

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I fixed that by writing the date and hours on the filter itself...my Kubota's filter will be two years old in March but the oil is only one year old with about 50 hours. The filter will have a hundred hours, more or less, when it gets changed this spring, which is half of Kubota's recommendation.

Scott,

You can put whatever oil you like in your Tractor ( sorry Harley )
It is your bike so you are entitled to do with it what your like.
And no I do not own, never have owned nor have any desire to own one.
I have a fleet of motorcycles from 1912 through to 1972 that all work perfectly and many of which have been fitted with modified clutches to run better in the oily primary drive case.

What I do object to and requires correction is that mower specific oil is not required in mowers.
To an extent this is true if you are happy to waste money by using oil which exceeds the makers recommendation in all properties.
Doing so is simply spending more than you need to & if you are happy to do so then again it is your mower & you are entitled to put whatever oil in your mower that you wish.

However a person reading it see a message that translates into "Car oils are fine for mowers" and in general they are not .
Some will be & some won't.
People with no knowledge of proper oil evaluation , let alone oil chemistry are easily confused and of course we all think in conspiracy mode ( they are all the same , just different colours & prices )
I was taught about oils both at college & university , gaining just enough knowledge to know to leave it to the experts and to be able to tell BS endorsement , testimonials & advertising claims from properly done scientific testing & evaluations.

MOWER OILS ARE SPECIFICALLY BLENDED FOR USE IN AIR COOLED MOWER ENGINES AND HAVE EVERYTHING THAT YOUR ENGINE NEEDS FUNCTION PROPERLY AND NOTHING IT DOES NOT NEED , SO IS THE BEST OIL TO PUT IN THERE .

Other oils will also work.
A mix of white spirit & kerrosene will work in your gas tank, but petrol works better .

As for synthetic or semi-synthetic oils most are way more expensive than generic mower oils and way above the specifications required.
As for the popular tag, dino oil a stupid description as all but the most expensive supposedly synthetic oils are plain oils mineral oil, made from plant remains, split into all the easy to separate parts then recombined so stuff not needed can be sold to some one else.
True synthetic oils are synthised from gas, coal seam gas or oil gas usually then chemically converted into oil, ie made from some thing that was not oil in the first place.
They came into being as a method of using waste by-products from mining or refining.
Most of the stuff we use in bulk is made the same way.
Commercial flour is all "synthetic" because the wheat/ corn/ maize is ground down really find separated into it parts on a molecular level the combined in the exact ratios needed for high speed commercial factory baking.

So I can run my mower on $ 10/ qt mower oil or $ 75/ qt fully synthetic oil
It will run just the same most of the time, however if I lay it up over extended winter periods, the synthetic might not offer the same corrosion protection & water isolation that the cheaper mower oil does.
Weather this is a problem for me will depend upon the micro climate where my mower is kept & how long it sits there & weather the oil was fresh or stale.
If mower oil is used it will protect the engine regardless of the local enviroment, the same MAY not be true for auto oils.

So while I can agree with you that you don't need to use mower oil in your mower, the fact remain that mower oil is the best oil for your mower.

The Fram would more than likely work just fine....

bertsmobile1 said:

As for synthetic or semi-synthetic oils most are way more expensive than generic mower oils and way above the specifications required.

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Maybe this is the case in Australia, but in the USA the Kawi oil is quite a bit higher than a mainstream synthetic. I don't know where to get Kawi oil locally, and I haven't seen it at Lowe's or Home Depot, but Amazon sells it for ~$10/qt. Here you can buy Mobil1 for ~$25 for a 5-qt. jug at Walmart, and rebates are available semi-annually that cut the price almost in half. I've been stockpiling M1 5w30 for my car and truck now for several years but need to buy more for the mower, as it takes a different viscosity. I'll probably run 15w50 in it, but I've got a few months to decide.

So while I can agree with you that you don't need to use mower oil in your mower, the fact remain that mower oil is the best oil for your mower.

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I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, as I've never seen any evidence that a product-branded oil (i.e., Harley, Kawasaki, Toyota, etc.) is any better than an equivalent mainstream product like Mobil1, Valvoline, Pennzoil, etc. If there is any evidence that Kawi oil has properties that work better in a mower engine I'd like to see it. I'm confused about your position on this, as you said that mainstream synthetics are "way above the specification required," but later say that "mower oil is best for your mower." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

I would only offer for the buyer to look at the oil date of being bottled. Most times on the back of the jug, sometimes on the bottom.

I look for the freshest oil. & anything older than 5 years is avoided. Because the additives are about shot even in sealed jugs.

7394 said:

I would only offer for the buyer to look at the oil date of being bottled. Most times on the back of the jug, sometimes on the bottom. I look for the freshest oil. & anything older than 5 years is avoided. Because the additives are about shot even in sealed jugs.

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Dates on Mobil1 quarts and jugs are stenciled on the back label, often hard to read and coded. The mfr. claims that oil is good for five years in a sealed container. One good reason to shop oil at Walmart is that they turn over inventory rapidly.

I can tell everyone on here what oil not to use unless ya'll are in a pinch and just use for topping off.......

Dollar store oil for 2 bux a quart...... There are a few reviews on the internet and Bob The Oil Guy has a article about also, I THINK........

1 other thing ......... Oreilly's Auto parts store brand name oil IS Shell Rotella or Valvoline...... I forgot which ...........

That's what I use in my Jeep........ Saving a buck per quart or a lil more helps out in the long run... I buy it by the gallon jugs......

Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!

iclick said:

Maybe this is the case in Australia, but in the USA the Kawi oil is quite a bit higher than a mainstream synthetic. I don't know where to get Kawi oil locally, and I haven't seen it at Lowe's or Home Depot, but Amazon sells it for ~$10/qt. Here you can buy Mobil1 for ~$25 for a 5-qt. jug at Walmart, and rebates are available semi-annually that cut the price almost in half. I've been stockpiling M1 5w30 for my car and truck now for several years but need to buy more for the mower, as it takes a different viscosity. I'll probably run 15w50 in it, but I've got a few months to decide.



I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, as I've never seen any evidence that a product-branded oil (i.e., Harley, Kawasaki, Toyota, etc.) is any better than an equivalent mainstream product like Mobil1, Valvoline, Pennzoil, etc. If there is any evidence that Kawi oil has properties that work better in a mower engine I'd like to see it. I'm confused about your position on this, as you said that mainstream synthetics are "way above the specification required," but later say that "mower oil is best for your mower." Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

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Firstly, mower oil is mower oil, not oil sold in branded bottles with the mower company's name on them.
I get my SAE 30 pink dyed mower oil from Western oil, the only company that blends it in Australia.
It is mower oil, not mower branded oil.
I hope this makes things clearer.
Stens , Rotary , Prime Line & Oregon all sell mower oil for a lot less than a bottle with Briggs or Kohler on the label.
Penziol, Castrol, BP all blend mower oil & sell it under their own name & I am sure there are more

As far as oil Specifications goes a higher spec is not necessarily better because it is full of stuff that your engine can neither use nor needs
Think of it like petrol.
You can put low grade 85 octane petrol for your old side banger & it will run fine
You can put 91 octane E10 in your mower & it will run exactly the same. The only difference will be the annual fuel cost
You can put 100 octane avgas in your mower and it will still run the same as it did on the 85 but you will just be paying more for the energy that the mower can not use

So the highest spec fuel is the avgas but the best fuel is the 85.
Modern high performance engines with running clearences between moving parts 1/3 ( or less ) than your mower engine need modern synthetic oils.
Old low technology mower engines do not need the same quality oil and in some cases it is actually worse for them.
I have a 1926 600 cc long stroke OHV engine that uses strait 50 oil summer & strait 40 in winter.
It will not start if you put 20W 50 oil in there because the ring gaps & side clearances are so big the 20W 50, which is a much higher specification oil can not maintain a pressure seal in a cold engine.
It also leaks out past all the scrolls & oil slingers
So the low grade strait 40 is the BEST oil for that engine.

Testing oils is very expensive and very little is done for the purpose of comparing one brand to another.
Even worse, none of the standard oil tests actually mimicks oil in your engine.
The only way to do this is to run identical engines, side by side then x-ray the oil to work out how much metal is being worn off & finally strip the engine & measure everything.
You won't see this done for mower engines, it is just too expensive for any one other than the engine makers.
Despite what people not involved in manfacturing think, there is not much profit in making mower engines which is why so many makers like Honda & Onan have pulled out and companies like Toro are now fitting imported engines into their domestic ( cheap ) mowers.

I wish you would READ my posts instead of blowing over them..

First off, I DON'T OWN a Harley(Tractor as you like to insult Harley owners-US made I guess), never posted I did. Look to the LEFT, that blue two wheeler isn't a Harley, too many cylinders..

If your that familiar with bikes, you would know there is NO street Harley that'll run 14,000 RPM's. Just looking at my picture I posted (of my "fancy oil filter"), it's VERY obvious the bikes NOT a HARLEY. I've owned two Harleys in the past, Kawasaki's, mostly Yamaha's, a Suzuki, etc.

So even thou say, Pennzoil sells a 30 wt oil with the same spec's (lettering of additives) is NOT good?? The Brigg's oil (More expensive BTW), same spec's, is much better??? I disagree with that, but that's your opinion...

So using Synthetic oil is over protection (if I read your post correctly)? Yes, it costs more, but some folks would like to have that EXTRA PROTECTION, I being one of them. Spending a couple extra $ is worth it to me for that protection. Especially the more expensive the machine..

Re my "fancy oil filter" (it's a K&P). You didn't address (or ignored) my question. More oil flow, known oil filtration rates(spec's on the site should you decide to click on it), etc. or the additional cooling to the oil from the filter alone. I would think you'd want that on an air cooled only engine (and often with a separate oil cooler-stock). Guess you wouldn't..

Believe what you wish, that's your business, as is mine.

*As a side note, my Briggs, 7HP Intek, OHV (self propelled) is about 13 years old now. Down here, the grass is cut TWICE a week during the summer, once about every week and half in the winter, 365 days.. I think I've ran genuine Briggs oil, maybe 2-3 times in that 13 years. RPM's are set at 3,600 @ WOT.
A leak down test shows the internal health of the machine at approx. 1-2% leakage (tops). There's no oil filter and the oil is changed regularly. If the oil I'm using is NOT good enough, how is it the engine is still so tight??? ... No oil burning, no external leakage. Didn't x-ray the oil (didn't know you could do that). I know you can send a sample of your oil out for analysis to check for wear/metal, etc.. IE, "Proof is in the pudding".


*This is the internet... If you believe EVERYTHING you read on-line, that IMO, is NOT good and eventually, you'll get burned.. Lots of good information, some not so much...

Is it that hard to understand that oil that's formulated for a mower engine is the best oil to use in a mower engine? Really guys. :laughing:

Darryl G said:

Is it that hard to understand that oil that's formulated for a mower engine is the best oil to use in a mower engine? Really guys. :laughing:

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I see no evidence to support this but would welcome any offered. IMO it's just as credible to say that mower makers repackage a standard oil with their label and charge 2x as much because some will embrace the notion that it is somehow better.

Zinc! I suggest you do a little research on your own rather than keep asking the same questions that you ignore the answers to.

I mow for a living and this is what you'll find in my shed. Is the the oil you use specifically designed to be used in constant speed air cooled engines? If not, why not? It's a mower not a car! Are you going to put car tires on it too?

Darryl G said:

Zinc! I suggest you do a little research on your own rather than keep asking the same questions that you ignore the answers to.

I mow for a living and this is what you'll find in my shed. Is the the oil you use specifically designed to be used in constant speed air cooled engines? If not, why not? It's a mower not a car! Are you going to put car tires on it too?

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Why would a good synthetic or even conventional oil without a mower manufacturer label not be suitable for constant speeds? People do it every day on the interstate highways. I've run my motorcycles for many hours per day at about the same RPMs as my mower runs for one hour per week.

I'm not trying to argue but simply have never seen evidence to support the notion that a brand-specific oil (e.g., Kawi) is superior to something else (e.g., Mobil1) in a Kawi engine. After 20 years of seeing these claims on motorcycle and other forums I've never seen one iota of evidence to support them. A good way to prove your point would be to send a sample of fresh Kawi oil to Blackstone Labs and ask them if there are any differences compared to an equivalent mainstream oil of the same viscosity and type. Kawi KTech 10w40 oil, for example, is API rated SL, just like most every oil you can pick off the shelf today. That means it must meet specs for compatibility with clean running and friendliness to catalytic converters, which a mower doesn't even have. If Kawi oil was special it would likely not have a contemporary API classification and would have extra ZDDP added for protection during fatal mishaps, like no oil pressure.

Also, I notice my manuals don't even mention Kawi oil, even as a recommendation. All this is not to say that Kawi oil is inferior in any way, but simply that it is likely conventional oil with a very high price tag.

Well I'd need a really good reason NOT to use an oil and filter that's specifically designed to be used with my mower. :laughing:

Car oil formulations had to change with the advent of catalytic converters and ever more stringent EPA regs. I believe zinc was removed due to interference with cats.

At any rate, this subject has been analyzed to DEATH here and every other forum that deals with gasoline engines.

Use whatever you want. You will not have an oil related failure in a 20 hour per year engine regardless of what oil you use. The use of super-duper synthetic oil and super-duper filters will not increase the life of a lawnmower engine one iota.

cpurvis said:

Car oil formulations had to change with the advent of catalytic converters and ever more stringent EPA regs. I believe zinc was removed due to interference with cats.

At any rate, this subject has been analyzed to DEATH here and every other forum that deals with gasoline engines.

Use whatever you want. You will not have an oil related failure in a 20 hour per year engine regardless of what oil you use. The use of super-duper synthetic oil and super-duper filters will not increase the life of a lawnmower engine one iota.

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Personal anecdotal history/fact: 2003 13 hp twin cylinder FH381v Kawasaki with 1500 hours. Oil & filter changed every 150 hours 10-40 mobil1, runs like a top with no oil consumption.

Darryl G said:

Well I'd need a really good reason NOT to use an oil and filter that's specifically designed to be used with my mower. :laughing:

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According to the manuals, you should simply install a new filter as per the recommended schedule with no mention of any specifications for that filter. Fram shows the XG4967 as being the correct filter for that engine, which BTW is the original subject of this thread. The same goes for oil, to use an oil meeting "API service classification SF, SG, SH, SJ, or SL" with certain viscosity recommendations. That covers most any oil that you can find on the shelves of any parts store. There's nothing in the Kawi or Hustler manuals that even mention using Kawi oil or filters, so what is your definition of "specifically designed to be used with my mower"?

iclick said:

Why would a good synthetic or even conventional oil without a mower manufacturer label not be suitable for constant speeds? People do it every day on the interstate highways. I've run my motorcycles for many hours per day at about the same RPMs as my mower runs for one hour per week.

I'm not trying to argue but simply have never seen evidence to support the notion that a brand-specific oil (e.g., Kawi) is superior to something else (e.g., Mobil1) in a Kawi engine. After 20 years of seeing these claims on motorcycle and other forums I've never seen one iota of evidence to support them. A good way to prove your point would be to send a sample of fresh Kawi oil to Blackstone Labs and ask them if there are any differences compared to an equivalent mainstream oil of the same viscosity and type. Kawi KTech 10w40 oil, for example, is API rated SL, just like most every oil you can pick off the shelf today. That means it must meet specs for compatibility with clean running and friendliness to catalytic converters, which a mower doesn't even have. If Kawi oil was special it would likely not have a contemporary API classification and would have extra ZDDP added for protection during fatal mishaps, like no oil pressure.

Also, I notice my manuals don't even mention Kawi oil, even as a recommendation. All this is not to say that Kawi oil is inferior in any way, but simply that it is likely conventional oil with a very high price tag.

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You are correct in your assumption that BRAND specific oil is no better than any other USE SPECIFIC oil, provided both are within specifications.
It is the same with oil filters, I use the same specification filters from the same factory as the factory branded ones and there is no difference between them either apart from the price .
I do the same with blades all OEM after market parts , except that some of these are in fact better than the ones the makers fit.

Back to oils, no mower company makes oil all they do is buy it in with bottles that have their name on it then distribute it through their parts network, which by lower volumes means higher prices than the same oil bought in a different bottle from a high volume sales outlet.
When it comes to what is in the bottle there is a big difference.
As previously mentioned, no oil is going to make your engine blow up.
Cheaper oils will allow for increased wear rates and perhaps more oil useage.

All oils start life as a crude.
The oil refineries analyse the oil then work out what they can make out of it most economically.
Australian crudes are not economic to turn into petrol but they make excellent lubrication oils.

The oil gets split down according to its molecular weight ( not the viscosity wt you see on the bottles ) then a particular fraction will get blended to make a particular type or end purpose oil.
Car oils and mower oils are generally made from a different oil base and that makes them fundamentially different.
Specialist oil BLENDERS buy unblended base oils from the refineries and build them up with their own addative package.
The small specialist oil BLENDERS can afford to use a better package than mass oils because they service the section of the market that is not as price sensitive .
So there are 2 basic things that determine the suitability of an oil for a particular use, the base oil & the package.
No oil company will tell the customers either of these and the packages are bit like KFC's spice recipie , a very close guarded secret.
The heavier the oil the more it costs
So I can make a 30wt oil from a 30 wt base , a 20wt base a 10wt base or even a 5wt base.
As the wt of the base oil gets lower, it get cheaper and the oils overall performance becomes more dependent upon the addative package which has a finite service life, a finite shelf life & a finite temperature range.
SAE 30 ower oils are all formulated from a 30wt base so they will perform as a 30wt oil even after the package has been either consumed , reacted , oxadised or burned out.

Some easy to understand differences.
Modern auto oils have to allow the car to start on the first cylinder that dose a full cycle so they have to be made from thin & slippery when cold oils to reduce the drag on the starter motor which allows the engine to spin faster at start up so it can fire on the first pot that went through a full induction cycle.
Mowers do not need to be able to do this ( yet ) so can be blended from a heavier oil.
The heavier the base oil the longer it will last so even after the addative package has been consumed, the oil will still work & not totally break down .
One of the big reasons why Honda push mowers start so easy is they use a 10w base oil which has less viscious drag at room temperature than the plain SAE 30 that B & S recommend.
In defence of Scott, his synthetic oil will have a lot less drag than the Honda 10w so any engine using that will be even easier to crank.
I have a lot of old frail customers and they are amazed when I service their mowers & they can suddenly start it , the biggest difference is the fact I use 10w40 in their engines.
The caveat to this is the 10w40 will not last as long as the strait 30 so will need more regular changes to maintain full protection and will leak more.

To fully understand exactly how the oils work & what the chemistry actually dose requires at least a graduate level in organic chemistry which is why there is so much confusion.
Most people can not comprehend how their washing up detergent actually works let alone a very complex fluid like oil.
To make things easier the industry use codes for BASIC performance levels &/or addative packages and these get printed on the bottle, Sf, Sl etc .
Where people get confused is a higher rating is not necessarily better for your end use than a lower package. It is a case of using the RIGHT package.
An old Ford flat bed & a Ferrari are both vehicles. both can tow trailers . The Ferrari is a better vehicle than the Ford , but the ford will tow your mower trailer a lot better than the Ferrari will.
OTOH if you are driving coast to coast on an interstate the Ferrari would do that a lot better, but go on unsealed back roads & you will be better off back in the Ford.

And finally, the actual service life of an oil will depend upon the oil you start with, the condition of the engine it is used in, the way that engine gets used, the fuel that the engine uses and the enviroment that it runs in.
Way too many variables for a one size fits all solution.

iclick said:

Except according to Fram it is designed to be used with Kawi engines. Should they not know?

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Imagine for a moment that you do have an engine issue under warranty. Do you want to have to be arguing about whether or not the failure was related to your choice of filter and oil? Especially when service will be somewhere that you didn't buy it. BTW, I don't recommend buying from Lowe's either, but at that price I can't fault anyone for grabbing that mower.

Selluwud said:

Personal anecdotal history/fact: 2003 13 hp twin cylinder FH381v Kawasaki with 1500 hours. Oil & filter changed every 150 hours 10-40 mobil1, runs like a top with no oil consumption.

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There you go, another happy customer.

Who we really need to hear from are those who learned a lesson the hard way, such as "I used Brand X oil or Brand X filter, and here's how it damaged my engine."

To be sure, you cannot go wrong with using the oil the engine manufacturer recommends especially if their name is on the oil. They can't make it any simpler than that.

Darryl G said:

Imagine for a moment that you do have an engine issue under warranty. Do you want to have to be arguing about whether or not the failure was related to your choice of filter and oil.

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They couldn't legally argue about a filter or oil unless they are found to have caused the warranty issue. Would they do it anyway? Maybe, but the chances of that happening are slim and I'm okay with that fight if it is necessary. I'm retired and a good warranty fight might be good mental exercise at my age. I won't use overpriced products in fear of being cheated on a warranty claim.

Especially when service will be somewhere that you didn't buy it. BTW, I don't recommend buying from Lowe's either, but at that price I can't fault anyone for grabbing that mower.

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I'm with you on that notion. I jumped at the low price and have no regrets yet. Of course I've only run the mower down the street so far and it hasn't touched a blade of grass yet. I understand Hustler is good about warranty claims and if I have a problem am confident they'll handle it in a fair way. On any minor warranty issue I would likely deal with it myself, though. BTW, the nearest Lowe's has an identical Raptor on the floor now for $600 more than I paid before my discounts (13%). I'm not sure what that's all about, as the "clearance" that supposedly was to last into mid-February seems to have evaporated.

Oils do not wreck an engine.So you will not get the answer you seek.
Some just protect better than other
It is not like throwing a rod.
Wear happens slowly over time.
Wear is also dependent upon a massive amount of variables that can not be controlled for.
Dust, local weather conditions, humidity of the very air the engine consumes, slope of the yard, type of grass, average mow time, etc, etc, etc, etc


As previously mentioned you would need to keep very accurate records of the type ( and cost ) that only the military and avaition industries can afford to do to get any meaningful answers.
Even then you need science & engineering knowledge to be able to interperate those answers .

I have only been running the repair shop for 5 ( nearly 6) years and I am yet to see an engine that grenaded because of the oil or filter used.
Even today, Briggs sell their engines with no oil filter fitted, with oil filter but no circulation pump , oil filter and circulation pump.
AFAIK B & S are the only company that sells an unfiltered engine.
However they all sell engines with different levels of oil circulation, splash lube, pressure fed big end only or full pressure lubrication.
These are not long term engines.
They are all built down to a price for an acceptiable service life ( gets shorter every season )

bertsmobile1 said:

Even today, Briggs sell their engines with no oil filter fitted, with oil filter but no circulation pump , oil filter and circulation pump. AFAIK B & S are the only company that sells an unfiltered engine. However they all sell engines with different levels of oil circulation, splash lube, pressure fed big end only or full pressure lubrication. These are not long term engines. They are all built down to a price for an acceptiable service life ( gets shorter every season )

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Yes, some of the smaller B&S engines still use splash lubrication--i.e., no oil pressure or filter. I'm not aware of any riding mower engines of that configuration but there may be some in cheaper mowers. These can be very durable with good maintenance, however, as I had a Sears 3.5hp edger for 35 years that only required yearly oil changes (synthetic "car" oil) and a some assorted carb maintenance in that time frame. A flood finally killed it and was retired with honors after a long, useful life. As simple as it was I could've overhauled the engine but didn't since the rest of the edger hardware was at the end of its lifespan.

My other B&S engines were either IC or Vanguard, and I never had any trouble with any of them--except the carb in the Vanguard engine (needle and seat). This Kawi engine is the first 4-cycle non-B&S engine I've owned in a lawn implement. I'm hoping it'll do as well or better.

Honda refused to reduce the build quality to the level that the mower companies would pay for so they exited the large mower engine business.
They still make the same engines with horizontal shafts but the reduced parts volumes has caused a price increase so you will not find many in the USA where price is the deciding factor over quality but you do see them in European equipment where quality is the deciding factor over price.
Honda still make small engines, mainly for their own push & self propelled mowers but it looks like no other maker will fit Honda engines any more, most opting for cheaper imported engines.
When Honda left, Kawasaki stepped right in as the "top" line engine.
Weather they are in fact any better than the top shelf Kohlers or Briggs is a matter of debate.
I see a lot of internal cost cost cutting that I do not like.

People are not rational & no longer have the ability to make rational reasoned & informed decisions.
Thus most mowers come in 3 grades
1) cheapest , fitted with Briggs ( formally Tecumseh )
2) better , or midrange fitted with Kohlers and a couple of hundred dearer
3) most expensive , fitted with Kawasaki's

Thus you cover the whole market.
The cheapskates who simply want to spend the least , the one uppers who like to think everything they own is better than every one elses and the undecided middle of the roaders.

As for which is best, debatable.
Generally the Briggs engines seem to take the most abuse, they tend to be lazy with more cc / hp.
This makes them the right engine for that market sector cause the people who won't open their wallets at purchase time tend to be the same who do not service their engines.

And Briggs were making the single cylinder Intek series without oil filters .
You find them on store branded ride ons & McCulloch branded ride ons down here.
From memory the Stihl Viking range also used filter less engines, but they were made by Murray & are no longer produced.

As a repairer who pulls apart about 20 engines a year I always find it funny that most of the self appointed expert opinions come from people who would be lucky to pull apart one engine a decade.

In fact the only reason I posted was the empathitical statement that there was no difference between mower oils & car oils otherwise this thread was an amusing insite into other peoples thinking.

Here we go again.......................................Enjoy..

7394 said:

Here we go again.......................................Enjoy..

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Naw.
Said my piece.
Wasn't it Einstein who said the definition of insanity is repeating the same experiment over & over again while expecting to see different results.

iclick said:

Yes, some of the smaller B&S engines still use splash lubrication--i.e., no oil pressure or filter. I'm not aware of any riding mower engines of that configuration but there may be some in cheaper mowers. These can be very durable with good maintenance, however, as I had a Sears 3.5hp edger for 35 years that only required yearly oil changes (synthetic "car" oil) and a some assorted carb maintenance in that time frame. A flood finally killed it and was retired with honors after a long, useful life. As simple as it was I could've overhauled the engine but didn't since the rest of the edger hardware was at the end of its lifespan.

My other B&S engines were either IC or Vanguard, and I never had any trouble with any of them--except the carb in the Vanguard engine (needle and seat). This Kawi engine is the first 4-cycle non-B&S engine I've owned in a lawn implement. I'm hoping it'll do as well or better.

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Well good luck with your new machine and don't forget to pick up some genuine Hustler mower grease. :biggrin:

Edit: I just came across a receipt for Kawi 30 weight oil and oil filters. Cost from my dealer is $5.95 for a quart of oil and $10.95 for the filter. I wouldn't call those prices outrageous or worth looking for an alternative.

Darryl G said:

Well good luck with your new machine and don't forget to pick up some genuine Hustler mower grease. :biggrin:

Edit: I just came across a receipt for Kawi 30 weight oil and oil filters. Cost from my dealer is $5.95 for a quart of oil and $10.95 for the filter. I wouldn't call those prices outrageous or worth looking for an alternative.

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I haven't seen Kawi KTech oil around here, although I'm sure someone carries it, but Lowe's has the filters for $15. We could always order on-line if we could trust the vendor to provide a genuine part.

Darryl G said:

Well good luck with your new machine and don't forget to pick up some genuine Hustler mower grease. :biggrin:

Edit: I just came across a receipt for Kawi 30 weight oil and oil filters. Cost from my dealer is $5.95 for a quart of oil and $10.95 for the filter. I wouldn't call those prices outrageous or worth looking for an alternative.

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I would call them outrageous compared to Mobil Delvac or Rotella 15/40 and an even better filter. It's your money though, buy what you want.

iclick said:

I haven't seen Kawi KTech oil around here, although I'm sure someone carries it, but Lowe's has the filters for $15. We could always order on-line if we could trust the vendor to provide a genuine part.

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Find a wix filter that fits your machine, and I get mine from Amazon for anywhere from $6 to $10.
Just a suggestion,
Use what you want and what cost is best for you.?

I just don't get it. Would you guys who run automotive oil in your mowers (and somehow think it's better for it) run mower oil in your cars/trucks. I bet not...

I've ran automotive 10w30 in my cub for going on 9 years, no problems at all...