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Maybe I should have titled this thread "Cub CaDEAD"!

So... I got my new EFI XT1 tractor about a month ago and so far I've run it very little. It's had a very gentle break-in but I've always gotten it fully warmed up and have not been hard on it. Haven't needed to mow yet but I did use it to haul around a core-type lawn aerator. There's about 2.5 hours on it. It starts beautifully and runs like a dream with the EFI, I'm very happy with that. The only thing that made me wonder was a sort of a noise which really sounded more like some sort of rattling of two metal parts together. There are plenty of posts about such noises for various tractors and they're attributed to pulleys rattling against brackets or other annoying-but-harmless things, so after doing some reading about it I decided it must just be one of the many possible such sources of that noise. It didn't seem to matter if there was a load on the engine or not, however the noise would fade out briefly and then back in when I changed the engine speed. I decided not to worry about it. In hindsight, that is the kind of response you'd get with a bad rod bearing or wrist pin.

Tonight I used the CC to pull the core aerator around in my back yard. Just as I finished and was heading back to the garage, the Cub's motor let loose with a loud sound and in very short order - probably less than a second - it came to a stop. When I try to start it the hour meter shows good voltage and when the starter hits it just hits but doesn't turn the engine at all. Okay, now I know that noise was more than an annoying sound. What gets me is that I've noticed this sound from really I think the very beginning, and I can't understand how something that defective wasn't picked up on at the factory.

Yes, I've checked the oil (a few times, including today) and it's as clear as Wesson cooking oil and right in the normal range on the dipstick where it should be.

Friday I call Home Depot and ask what I have to do to get it fixed. Well at least I'll get a new engine and hopefully the next time it will be a good one. There's a guy who posts online, might be here at lawnmowerforum, who's a veteran small engine mechanic and says that the Chinese engines he's worked on have been great, no problems with them... CC has been using this FI engine for a couple of years now and I would expect if it was a bad design they'd have done something about it before now.

Oh well. Stuff happens, and usually to me. Postscript - before I bought the CC I did look at a Husq-built tractor at Sears which I decided against for several reasons. The real puzzler for me was that though the tractor was brand new and hadn't even been run (it was a floor model) it only came with a 30 day warranty. I've had my CC for that long and only used it a couple hours so far. If I'd bought the other tractor and this happened I'd be S.O.L.

Cub CaDead Update

Update: Okay, the Cub is dead. 2.4 hours from new and it's blown. Just my luck.

I called HomeDepot and they told me where to get it warranty-serviced, a local equipment dealer just a couple miles away. Very nice and reputable looking place with a few branches in the region. Called them Friday and they said they could pick up the Cub the following week, or I could bring it in sooner myself of course, and to have the purchase info etc. for the warranty. I found all that stuff and registered the tractor online. (You can also do it from the bluetooth phone app.)

Today (Saturday) I found that the Cub would fit in the back of my truck so loaded it up and brought it in to the service place and gave them the paperwork. The guy there told me that what would probably happen is that CC would want them to pull the engine and take it apart to see what was wrong and submit photos and then CC would tell them how to proceed. (I'm expecting a new engine will be cheaper and a better resolution than them trying to repair the bad motor.) If things went very quickly I might have the Cub back in a couple of weeks, but it all depends how long it takes CC to review the info and photos and also whether they've got a replacement engine in stock to send. I've got my old Wheel Horse from 1972 which will suffice til I get the CC back and hopefully it won't take TOO long for that to happen.

I note that the guy at the repair place didn't say anything like 'Oh, one of THOSE again...' or anything suggesting that they've seen much of these engines having failed.

Here's my Cub Cadead in the back of my truck... the 42" deck with the discharge chute folded up just fits between the wheel wells of the bed. (It's a 2001 Dodge Dakota with about 45 inches between the wheel wells.)

Another update

A week ago yesterday I took my Cub into the local dealer for warranty service since the engine seemed obviously blown with 2.4 hours on the meter. First - the local dealer is just across town but down a side road and I've never really noticed them, otherwise I probably could have gotten the same price for the same tractor from them as from Home Depot and would have bought it there.

Anyhow after a week I stopped in to check on how the situation was going. This is a great dealer - this is no 'Ed's Mowers and U-Haul Rental'. If you have a business and want to buy ten professional mowers or a tractor or something, this is the kind of place you'd probably want to do so.



The guy behind the counter punched in my info and had it all on his screen:
- the engine WAS blown as I thought
- don't recall if the guy said but I think it was the connecting rod came away from the crankshaft, the piston slammed into the head, all manner of mayhem took place, engine was trash (Based on the sound it was making I believe it was the connecting rod bearing or possibly the wristpin
- Cub Cadet approved and had shipped a new engine and it was received on Friday (six days after I first brought in the tractor)
- tractor should be ready by mid-week

The counter guy said they haven't seen any apparent problems with these engines so I wonder what happened - all I really care is that they found the problem quickly and in 10-11 days total I'll have my Cub back and we can start fresh.

What brand of engine was it?

Supposedly it's a Cub Cadet branded engine... they worked with (someone) to design it from scratch.
I'm not worried about it though, they've been using this engine for at least a couple of years and I would expect any actual bugs or flaws to have turned up by now, before they started offering it in more models. My CC factory warranty shop indicated they've not seen any pattern of problems with this engine.

The engine manufacturers have known how to build good engines for a long time.

What they don't know how to do is build those good engines for less and less money, and that's where the pressure is these days--cutting costs.

cpurvis said:

The engine manufacturers have known how to build good engines for a long time.

What they don't know how to do is build those good engines for less and less money, and that's where the pressure is these days--cutting costs.

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I doubt that the engine in my Cub will ever stand up like the one in my 1972 Wheel Horse - a 10hp Kohler single that still doesn't use oil and runs like a champ. (While my Cub is in getting a new engine I fired up the WH and mowed my lawn with it yesterday as the grass was starting to get too long.)

Nonetheless, I don't know if it was in this forum or another on the Internet where I read a longtime small engine mechanic's comment that the current small engines of all kinds, including those made in China, are fine and not junk.

I doubt that the engine in my Cub will ever stand up like the one in my 1972 Wheel Horse - a 10hp Kohler single that still doesn't use oil and runs like a champ. (While my Cub is in getting a new engine I fired up the WH and mowed my lawn with it yesterday as the grass was starting to get too long.)

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Hang onto that Wheel Horse. It may come in handy again.

cpurvis said:

Hang onto that Wheel Horse. It may come in handy again.

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I've got three of them; I will probably hang onto the 7hp 1967 model. I was a kid in grade school when my neighbor across the street bought it new.

Wow. It sounds like it may have been a lemon engine. My Cub Cadet is a year old and I hope that never happens to me. I really don't use it much for mowing though. More for general yard stuff.

cpurvis said:

The engine manufacturers have known how to build good engines for a long time.

What they don't know how to do is build those good engines for less and less money, and that's where the pressure is these days--cutting costs.

Click to expand...

Yes,
There is no one to blame but yourself and the 1,000,000 others who reward mower companies that fit poor quality engines by continually buying them.
For a decade or more Honda made the best quality mower engine ( Onan was better ) but so few people paid the extra $ 300 for the Honda engine the mower companies dropped them.
This told the mower companies that the buying public do not want a top quality mower that will last a long time, they just want a cheap one and the best one is the cheapest one.
All the companies that made top shelf quality domestic mowers went bankrupt because the bulk of the buying public will only pay for cheap & the cheaper the better.
Thus you have a choice of cheap and nasty or nasty & cheap till you get to the commercial level mowers, where quality & longevity is more important selling factors than the number on the price tag.

If it's that important to not buy 'cheap foreign' then an option is to buy an older American product and have it refurbished. My 1972 Wheel Horse needs work and I could probably have had it brought up to snuff for less I paid for my new Cub, but the Cub DOES have three years warranty coverage on the engine and five on most of the rest... and if the engine lasts three years it will last 20. I wanted a newer mower that turns tighter and is more comfortable and does NOT have the carburetor issues of the old ones. Looking at my old Wheel Horse with the hydraulic accessory / mower deck lift and how everything on it is made of heavy steel I know the new Cub is not that level of mower. But I have barely half an acre - I don't need industrial strength.

Remember when they said about cars 'they don't make them like they used to'? Now we are thankful they don't. Cars used to rust through in the first few years, drive lines lasted 100,000 miles if you were very lucky before something needed major repairs, they went through exhaust systems (every two years), shock absorbers (every 20K miles), spark plugs (every 10K miles or less), needed oil changes every 3000 miles, and when it was below zero out you had a 50% chance that the car would start. And I wonder how many of our new cars have key parts made in China and we don't even know about it.

Not that I'm a big fan of China but just facing the situation as it exists.

tsfrance said:

Wow. It sounds like it may have been a lemon engine. My Cub Cadet is a year old and I hope that never happens to me. I really don't use it much for mowing though. More for general yard stuff.

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Cub Cadet has been using this engine for at least two years in their higher priced version of my tractor. I doubt they'd have expanded the use of it to more models if it had any serious issues.
As for why mine blew up at 2.4 hours, who knows? Maybe the person who was supposed to inspect the rod bearing cap for cracks lost his place when he left to go on break and it got past the inspection with a flaw. What surprises me is that I think I heard the sound from very early on, perhaps from the start... if they had run the engine I can't understand how they'd have not heard the noise it was making. I have to admit it was concerning me. If it was going to blow I'm glad it did it quickly so I can get a new engine and get past this and move on.

The new engine arrived at the Cub dealer last Friday and I'm hoping the tractor will be ready to bring home by the weekend. It took them only five days to pull the blown motor, tear it down, get the info to CC and receive a brand new replacement engine so hopefully this will will let them get it installed.

bullrider said:

If it's that important to not buy 'cheap foreign' then an option is to buy an older American product and have it refurbished. My 1972 Wheel Horse needs work and I could probably have had it brought up to snuff for less I paid for my new Cub, but the Cub DOES have three years warranty coverage on the engine and five on most of the rest... and if the engine lasts three years it will last 20. I wanted a newer mower that turns tighter and is more comfortable and does NOT have the carburetor issues of the old ones. Looking at my old Wheel Horse with the hydraulic accessory / mower deck lift and how everything on it is made of heavy steel I know the new Cub is not that level of mower. But I have barely half an acre - I don't need industrial strength.

Remember when they said about cars 'they don't make them like they used to'? Now we are thankful they don't. Cars used to rust through in the first few years, drive lines lasted 100,000 miles if you were very lucky before something needed major repairs, they went through exhaust systems (every two years), shock absorbers (every 20K miles), spark plugs (every 10K miles or less), needed oil changes every 3000 miles, and when it was below zero out you had a 50% chance that the car would start. And I wonder how many of our new cars have key parts made in China and we don't even know about it.

Not that I'm a big fan of China but just facing the situation as it exists.

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And Ford applied for a chapter 27 ? bankruptcy back in the GFC which was the 3rd time it shafted it's suppliers.
GM was also broke but they managed to flog off some of the European models & factories to remain solvent & the Obama Government rewarded them with a massive "loan" to build their new foundry in Michigan.

While cars have gotten more reliable, they have also reduced their service life drastically.
Very few will go 20 years and most will be obsoleted in 10 when critical components will no longer be available.
I had to dump a perfectly good 1994 van because the throttle valve is NLA similar with a 2005 van because the computer cable connector is NLA.
Being a commonwealth country we got the junk the Pommies made foisted upon us for decades till the late 90's when import quotas were abolished.
The locally made cars ( scaled down versions of USA models then had to compete with European vehicles and their quality went forward leaps & bounds.
By the 70's they were all fully dipped.

I rather think the lack of quality in US vehicles had more to do with the protection of the market than anything else.
When Yamaha brought out the SR 500 followe by the V twin based on it, Harley lost their exemption for Californian EPA requirements as Yamaha showed they could be exceeded .
So HD had a big shake up and went from a cheaply made local embarassment to a modern motorcycle at a substantially higher price

bertsmobile1 said:

While cars have gotten more reliable, they have also reduced their service life drastically.
Very few will go 20 years and most will be obsoleted in 10 when critical components will no longer be available.
I had to dump a perfectly good 1994 van because the throttle valve is NLA similar with a 2005 van because the computer cable connector is NLA.
Being a commonwealth country we got the junk the Pommies made foisted upon us for decades till the late 90's when import quotas were abolished.
The locally made cars ( scaled down versions of USA models then had to compete with European vehicles and their quality went forward leaps & bounds.
By the 70's they were all fully dipped.

I rather think the lack of quality in US vehicles had more to do with the protection of the market than anything else.
When Yamaha brought out the SR 500 followe by the V twin based on it, Harley lost their exemption for Californian EPA requirements as Yamaha showed they could be exceeded .
So HD had a big shake up and went from a cheaply made local embarassment to a modern motorcycle at a substantially higher price

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I have to disagree about service life. A vehicle with 100,000 miles on it used to be a real achievement. One with 200,000 had at least one overhaul and you heard about it in a letter from your great Aunt in Nebraska whose neighbor was trying to sell it. My first car was a 1965 Mercury which was seven years old and I bought it in 1972 (for $210, amazing). It had 78,000 miles on it. It already had rusted through in both rear fenders. My 2001 Dodge Dakota is approaching 18 years old and is finally starting to rust (in places where pickups tend to, for the most part). It runs great and I plan to keep it for the foreseeable future.

It's very common to find people selling cars with well over 100,000 miles on them. My sister in law drives a Dodge Charger with 245,000 miles on it. It's getting tired out but fortuantely she's got a lifetime powertrain warranty on it. And trucks? People are selling pickups and large SUV's with 200,000 miles on them and not at giveaway prices.

So I definitely disagree about service life. (BTW I own a 2005 Lexus with 165,000 miles on it and it feels and runs like new.) Cars in the old days at half a dozen years started becoming clunkers and beaters. Not anymore.

Re NLA parts, at least in the US car makers have to provide repair parts for a certain number of years, longer periods for parts that are necessary to run or meet emissions or safety, but nobody as a matter of SOP stocks parts for 20 year old vehicles. That's why there is an aftermarket, Ebay, and junkyards.

I have no doubt that foreign competition forced the US automakers to greatly up their game and I'm glad that happened. Honestly, they have done a great job of making a better, more reliable and longer lasting product than when they had the market sewn up.

You haven't been paying attention to prices.

In 1994, I paid $2400 for a 2140 Cub Cadet. 14 hp, 42" stamped deck.

In 1998, I bought a Ford pickup for $18,000.

Since then, what has happened to the prices of each? I can buy a new Cub Cadet with more horsepower and bigger deck for less money today. Have the prices of vehicles decreased similarly?

No, vehicle prices haven't decreased. But there's basically very little different when you get down to it between a 20 year old Cub Cadet and a new one (other than parts sourcing). Vehicles have changed every year, they have tighter emission standards that have to be met and safety standards, plus the cost of certifying compliance. A whole new engine computer or maybe even engine design is sometimes needed to meet standards. All of this costs a lot more than new decals for a hood on a Cub Cadet to differentiate between models.

The newer vehicles DO get better mileage and run cleaner because of all that expense so there is some benefit. But I have to agree that the prices have gone astronomical. In 1979 I bought a brand new SUV (Dodge's version of the Chevy Blazer). It stickered for about $11,000 with a lot of options. But it ran like crap (until I un-did a bit of the pollution equipment) and got terrible gas mileage. Now that same basic type of vehicle would cost no less than 3x as much. Adjusted for inflation, maybe 1.5 or 1.75 times as much - but would run much better, have more power, get about 2x the fuel mileage (literally), plus have more equipment for both safety and convenience.

Inflation has to always be figured into the cost comparisons, and really there is a huge difference between the cost of bringing out new model cars/trucks every year compared to something much more static like a lawn tractor.

My new EFI Cub Cadet isn't all that complicated but it does add to the cost of the tractor. That EFI system is very simple compared to what is on a car.

I'm sure we agree on many things in principle, but look at them from different perspectives. I had to have an engine computer replaced in my 2001 truck last summer. Of course those are no longer available from the mfr. The dealer had to locate one that was used but had been tested. I can't really expect anyone to sit on a supply of NOS parts for vehicles that are getting too old to be worth fixing.

Well I have an 84 L300 with just under 900,000 km on the dial and a 2001 model with 475,000 km.
But these were left overs from a transport company so were doing 500 km a day 5 day a week.

The life of the engines have not gotten any longer .
The scheduled maintenance intervals is what has drastically increased. As has the cost of rebuilding an engine, if they actually can be rebuilt as a lot of the all alloy engines warp when the heads are removed so they are effectively throw away engines.
The VW van I had in my college days did well over 2,000,000 km but in that time had quite a few rebuilds, usually about every second or third year.
Back in the 60's, Saturday morning was always car servicing day, now days it is twice a year not once a week.

As for prices, forget the numbers of $ they are meaningless.
You bought the vehicle with hours of labour, the same thing that you bought your mower with .
The money was just a medium of exchange acceptable to both parties.
So when you look at what cars really cost, my first 2nd hand one cost 1/2 year of wages and a new one was about 1.5 years.
Now days a new car is about 1/3 of a years wages. And I am not talking about what I was earning I am talking national average male incomes including overtime & holidays.

Using those figures evens out different values of currencies and different rates of pay.

So yes cars are a lot lot lot cheaper now that they were 20 years ago.

Same for mowers.
my fathers first petrol mower cost him 3 months wages, for a 2 stroke push mower with an 18" cut.
But my sister still has it and it still starts first pull and mows the common area of her block just as well as it did our old home.
Now days a bottom end ride on is 3 weeks wages with a 20Hp V twin and a 42" cut but they will be lucky to be running at all in 5 years time.

Right now I am swapping the engines from a 2006 Murray sentenial with a dead tranny for which there is no replacement into a 2007 Murray Sentenial with a vari drive Tranny.
I have 5 more of these in the graveyard, mostly with smashed engines
OTOH the 1966 Rover with the 6 speed Peerless , chain drive & 10Hp SV Briggs is still running like a top.

Lots of my customers are still running mowers from the 70's , 80's & 90's with side valve shakers and they will probably still be running when petrol is no longer available

One thing for sure, lubricants have improved massively, especially with regards to using pure synthetics that last a lot longer. And I do think tolerances in engines have been tightened up as well. The days of the old fashioned long slow break in have passed.

bullrider said:

One thing for sure, lubricants have improved massively, especially with regards to using pure synthetics that last a lot longer. And I do think tolerances in engines have been tightened up as well. The days of the old fashioned long slow break in have passed.

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Yes.
Carbide tooling was only used on very profitable defence & aerospace products till well into the 80's and in many instances the 90's
HSS & High carbon tooling changes size every time it is used so the run of parts starts off being tight with a new tool then gradually goes to out of spec when it gets replaced with a nice new sharp tool.
Automated machines work between stops so the tool travels the same distance on every part.
Carbide tooling holds its shape much much better so the parts are more consistant thus specified clearences can be tightened so what now rools off the line would have been a competition shop blueprinted engine 20 years ago.

Then the next step is real time computer control where the part is being measured all the time and the tooling movements changed to compensate for wear so tigher tollerances again.

Finally computer modeling has allowed parts to be made smaller & thinner with substantially less material.40 years ago parts were modified then tested to failure then modified & tested again.
Now days I can do that on my laptop computer which is a lot quicker and cheaper than making changes to metal.
The down side is I can also make parts that will just outlast warranty with a 99% certaincy that they will all fail outside the warranty period be it 1 year 2 years 5 years or 50 years.
Thus the customer can only get what they pay for, nothing more and rarely nothing less.

bertsmobile1 said:

Yes.
Carbide tooling was only used on very profitable defence & aerospace products till well into the 80's and in many instances the 90's
HSS & High carbon tooling changes size every time it is used so the run of parts starts off being tight with a new tool then gradually goes to out of spec when it gets replaced with a nice new sharp tool.

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Seems I read once that there was a guy who worked at the Triumph motorcycle plant in England long ago. He was an old guy who was the only one who knew how to keep the old equipment operating within acceptable tolerances. When he retired they released a bunch of motorcycles where the engines either burned lots of oil or else they seized up because they were too 'tight'. It almost put them out of business.

Update on getting my Cub Cadet back

Called the Cub dealer this AM. Seems the new engine is installed but they broke some kind of clip for the fuel line in the process and they had to order another. Should have it back by early in the coming week. Still not anywhere near as bad as I'd feared for having to have a whole engine replacement. I am not worried that the new engine will have the same problem - seems like the issue my first engine had is not something the dealer has encountered even occasionally. Nobody said 'oh, we've had a couple like this one...' The situation hit them as something they seemed to not be accustomed to seeing.

Still waiting!

Still don't have my Cub Cadet back. The new replacement engine arrived at the dealer on the Friday after I brought in the tractor (the prior Saturday) so that happened very fast and I was encouraged. Unfortunately some plastic piece from the fuel system is broken or got broken, and we're waiting for THAT to arrive. A new engine gets there in 3 days, a plastic fuel line part takes a couple of weeks. So far.

Back in business

Checked with the Cub dealer Friday, they said the tractor was ready, I went and picked it up Sat AM. It runs NICE, and quiet and smooth - much better IMO that it did with the original engine that blew up. I should be in business going forward. Maybe I can get a few years out of it before it breaks from some other reason but I don't expect the engine to self destruct again.

Re: Back in business

bullrider said:

I should be in business going forward.

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How about when going in reverse?

Re: Back in business

cpurvis said:

How about when going in reverse?

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There's a a video about that!
But yes, it does work nicely in reverse.

bullrider said:

I doubt that the engine in my Cub will ever stand up like the one in my 1972 Wheel Horse - a 10hp Kohler single that still doesn't use oil and runs like a champ.

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Our 1978 Wheel Horse C-101 with 10 HP Kohler also still runs fine and uses no oil.

DK35vince said:

Our 1978 Wheel Horse C-101 with 10 HP Kohler also still runs fine and uses no oil.

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Those old engines were not made with anything in mind but longevity. Lots of 50 year old Wheel Horses etc still out there chugging away!

bullrider said:

Those old engines were not made with anything in mind but longevity. Lots of 50 year old Wheel Horses etc still out there chugging away!

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Back then the market was prepared to pay a reasonable amount for a quality item so there was reasonable profit in making mowers of good quality.
But people are greedy and always want more for less, profit margins got squeezed and thus the quality dropped like a stone.
On top of that people can not think about prices, all they remember are numbers so if a mower was $ 1000 in 1980 they expect better in 2018 for the same $ 1000 which when adjusted for inflation is about $ 400..
The idea of converting to real cost ( hours of your labour ) is apparently way too difficult for most to understand.
Back in the 60's 70's & 80's you had to take out finance to buy a ride on mower, now days you just pop it on the card.
In fact in the 60's we had to take out finance to buy our push mower and pay it off over 3 years.
We still have that mower and the only major work done to it was to convert the blade disc to take modern blades.
My sister who is over 70 still uses it to mow the common area around her home unit ( flat or condo to some )

Well I bought that 1978 Wheel Horse used in excellent condition in 1986 (32 years ago) for $1100. We still have it.
My 2013 Hustler Super Z 72" (35 HP) with flex forks was just under $12,000 OTD. Certainly wasn't cheap.
But it is very well built and should last us many years. The thing still impresses me how fast it will mow.

DK35vince said:

Well I bought that 1978 Wheel Horse used in excellent condition in 1986 (32 years ago) for $1100. We still have it.
My 2013 Hustler Super Z 72" (35 HP) with flex forks was just under $12,000 OTD. Certainly wasn't cheap.
But it is very well built and should last us many years. The thing still impresses me how fast it will mow.

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And $ 1100 in 1986 was how many weeks wages 3 , 4 , 5 ? and that was for a used mower.
People regularly write here expecting to get a "good" new ride on for $ 1200 to $ 1500 which is just not going to happen.

To a degree there has always been a difference in quality levels for items like lawn tractors etc. In 1968 when I was in about 6th grade my dad bought a floor model Sears Craftsman mower. Like this:

Our neighbors across the street had bought a 7hp Wheel Horse. Well the Craftsman is long long gone (yet I think it was a pretty cool looking machine). He replaced it in the late 70's with a 1972 Wheel Horse. I used it to cut my lawn 2x this year while the new Cub Cadet was getting its engine replaced.

The neighbor's 7hp Wheel Horse was sold with the house across the street to its new owners who died in a car accident. Their estate sold it to a friend of my dad's. My dad bought it off him and toyed with it a while. My dad sold it to me when it was already 19 years old and I used it for 12 years in Vermont where I had moved to, and 10 years in Indiana. It's still in my shed; if I took it in and got the ignition fixed it would still be running. I did replace the short block at one point because something was seriously wring with it by the time it was pushing 40 years old.

I remember when the Sears tractors were labeled "David Bradley." They had a horizontal shaft engine but it was mounted transversely on the frame with the output shaft outside of the frame rail.

Oh, how I wanted one of these. But they were an *infinite* multiple of the $0.00 my parents were paying me to mow our 1/2+ acre yard with an 18" push (not self propelled) mower.

cpurvis said:

I remember when the Sears tractors were labeled "David Bradley." They had a horizontal shaft engine but it was mounted transversely on the frame with the output shaft outside of the frame rail.

Oh, how I wanted one of these. But they were an *infinite* multiple of the $0.00 my parents were paying me to mow our 1/2+ acre yard with an 18" push (not self propelled) mower.

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Lots of the older tractors had a horizontal shaft engine mounted sideways. All three of my Wheel Horse tractors have that. It works well for running accessories via belt drive.

Update on my EFI Cub Cadet

Well - since this started so long ago, I'll recap that I bought a new EFI Cub Cadet in Spring. With about 3 or 4 hours on it the engine blew - totally - and was replaced under warranty.
Ever since I got it back the Cub has been perfect in every way. It runs beautifully hot or cold, it starts up on the 2nd turn with the throttle at any position, there's no surging or any other of the numerous things that drive me nuts with carbureted engines. I'm totally satisfied with my choice of the EFI and would recommend it to anyone. It's not a new / untested system really, it's similar to what they started putting on cars over 30 years ago only adapted for the Cub engine.

I also think that once it got broken in, the replacement engine uses LESS fuel than my old 10hp Wheel Horse was using. It's been stated that the EFI engines save 25% on gasoline use and I can believe it, which just goes to show how inefficient carburetors are and what a poor job they do of metering fuel compared to an intelligent system that keeps constant track of what is going out the exhaust.

Some might say 'but I can fix a carburetor myself'. Yes, you can, and you can bet that you will need to. At least you will try. I've had my fill of tinkering with them, and governors - another diabolical Rube Goldberg contraption.

EFI - highly recommended.

Always remember.. If t says Cub Cadet or Troy Bilt on the name badge, it's MTD and MTD only builds landfill quality stuff despite what the advertisement say.

SidecarFlip said:

Always remember.. If t says Cub Cadet or Troy Bilt on the name badge, it's MTD and MTD only builds landfill quality stuff despite what the advertisement say.

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I've read that they build equipment at all quality levels, depending on spec. Not saying the Cub Cadet is all that much.
However - the EFI works great, and that was my point.

bullrider said:

I've read that they build equipment at all quality levels, depending on spec. Not saying the Cub Cadet is all that much.
However - the EFI works great, and that was my point.

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I'm here to tell you that I delivered hot rolled steel sheet and strip to MTD facilities in Cleveland, Ohio, Mansfield, Ohio and south of Toledo, Oho, for years and they never bought anything but the cheapest grade of secondary rejects available.

The facility in Mansfield (formerly Shiloh Industries) does most of the stamping while the facility south of Toledo does the assembly as well as the Cleveland facility which is also corporate headquarters. I'm real familiar with them. having said that I own a CC zero turn but an M60 tank which is the commercial version, a CC rear time tiller (RT series). Both are good but both share good and not so good components.

The frame on your CC tractor is HR secondary reject. Can tell you that. Expect the paint to flake off as well because their prep to paint is crude.

Like anything else, you get what you paid for and you are lucky in the fact that the local shop gave you good service. Usually a box store purchase and failure and getting the local shop to warrant it (because no box store warrants anything) usually is a crapshoot. Why I deal with the mom and pop places rather than a box store.

Lowes sells a pile of John Deere wannabe lawn tractors (built by MTD btw) and then pawns the warranty service off on a mom and pop shop. You could have paid the same fare at the local shop as the box store and had immediate peace of mind that the local shop would have handled any issue, which they did in your case, but sometimes it don't play that way.

Very interesting. I can easily tell that my new CC is not built anything like my 1972 Wheel Horse which is much more a miniature tractor than a lawn machine. That said, the WH needed so much work and I was getting tired of having to fix it every time I needed to mow the lawn, and with the level of use the CC is going to get I expect it to last as long as I'll need it.

And that aside, EFI works GREAT and nobody will ever sell me another small engine with a carburetor.

When it's old and used up, everything needs work.... Including you... lol

EFI is nice but, keep in mind that just because it's EFI, don't mean you can leave e-gas sit in it all winter because phase seperation will impact EFI, just like a carb. One the e-gas seperates and gets nasty, your EFI will go south and EFI is much more costly to fix. Me, I'll stick with a carb. I can clean a carb and they are inexpensive to replace. EFI isn't.

I looked at the CC riders like you have for my wife who won't run a ZT and we mow 8 acres but after looking I decided all that plastic wasn't for me.

SidecarFlip said:

When it's old and used up, everything needs work.... Including you... lol

EFI is nice but, keep in mind that just because it's EFI, don't mean you can leave e-gas sit in it all winter because phase seperation will impact EFI, just like a carb. One the e-gas seperates and gets nasty, your EFI will go south and EFI is much more costly to fix. Me, I'll stick with a carb. I can clean a carb and they are inexpensive to replace. EFI isn't.

I looked at the CC riders like you have for my wife who won't run a ZT and we mow 8 acres but after looking I decided all that plastic wasn't for me.

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Actually I like the plastic hood on the CC. It doesn't rattle, it doesn't scratch, it doesn't dent, it doesn't rust. I've seen people cry about wanting a metal hood, I find that this is actually better for me.
And I understand about the fuel situation, my seasonal vehicles are stored with a full tank with appropriate additives, which is why for example my Sportster starts up in spring like I just ran it yesterday.

Re: Update on my EFI Cub Cadet

bullrider said:

Well - since this started so long ago, I'll recap that I bought a new EFI Cub Cadet in Spring. With about 3 or 4 hours on it the engine blew - totally - and was replaced under warranty.
Ever since I got it back the Cub has been perfect in every way. It runs beautifully hot or cold, it starts up on the 2nd turn with the throttle at any position, there's no surging or any other of the numerous things that drive me nuts with carbureted engines. I'm totally satisfied with my choice of the EFI and would recommend it to anyone. It's not a new / untested system really, it's similar to what they started putting on cars over 30 years ago only adapted for the Cub engine.

I also think that once it got broken in, the replacement engine uses LESS fuel than my old 10hp Wheel Horse was using. It's been stated that the EFI engines save 25% on gasoline use and I can believe it, which just goes to show how inefficient carburetors are and what a poor job they do of metering fuel compared to an intelligent system that keeps constant track of what is going out the exhaust.

Some might say 'but I can fix a carburetor myself'. Yes, you can, and you can bet that you will need to. At least you will try. I've had my fill of tinkering with them, and governors - another diabolical Rube Goldberg contraption.

EFI - highly recommended.

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That is not true with the EFI on a lawnmower. You have to have a long exhaust, 2 O2 sensors and an expensive computer to do that.

It may lack the sophistication of an automotive system but it still works on positive pressure instead of gravity and dribbling... it measures RPM by more than a magnet pulling on a lever to (do a lousy job of trying to) maintain engine speed, and it makes easier starting and definitely uses less gas.

Fred Flintstone can have his carburetors.

And one day when your EFI system decides to "go on vacation" for one reason or another, you can shuffle it down to your dealer who may.. or may NOT know how to repair it, and have the equipment required to do the repair, and hopefully, they can arrange for a second mortgage to finance that repair, no doubt EFI is in the future of lawn-equipment, but IMHO, it's still relatively new to this field, and has bugs to be worked out, most likely, dealer support .......

I'll take my chances. Had enough of small engine carbs.

bullrider said:

I'll take my chances. Had enough of small engine carbs.

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Bullrider, I mean no ill-will or malice, I truly hope it treats you well and lasts forever, I'm just an "ol-fart" - "old-school" guy and I enjoy fixin broke carbs, and I just think EFI is not yet ready for replacing the carb, ... not yet ! .. :thumbsup:

At this moment I'm contemplating buying either a Cub XT2 carbureted or maybe a EFI model. As a 40+ year auto mechanic and classic car enthusiast I have always preached that carburetors as antiquated as they are can be fixed on the side of the road if there is a breakdown but EFI in cars has over the years proven to be very reliable. With EFI in a lawn tractor my only concern would be cost of repair (after warranty) and especially the level of training the dealer has. I worked for a few GM dealers and can tell you for a fact that the technicians are in some cases way behind when it comes to training on new technologies introduced. I see no reason to think the small engine guys working for the equipment dealers are any different. These machines are new and not that popular so chances are if you're unlucky enough to own one of these EFI machines and it breaks down your machine will likely be a learning tool. While talking to sales guys I was informed a new carburetor for a Kawasaki engine is a staggering $750.00. As outrageous as this is I'll bet an EFI repair could be more. I think I'll buy a carbed version for now. My next machine if I live that long could be EFI?

On a side note as I write this a very good friend of mine has been stranded in Flagstaff AZ. for 4 days with EFI issues. It would appear the dealer there is not that familiar with Corvettes?