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Lowballers drive me nuts and kill the industry! Thanks for putting it to us lowballers!

BHLC said:

Lowballers drive me nuts and kill the industry! Thanks for putting it to us lowballers!

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Your welcome

exotion said:

Your welcome

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Lol there you go

BHLC said:

Lowballers drive me nuts and kill the industry! Thanks for putting it to us lowballers!

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Don't blame them for getting yards you wanted.
There are plenty if yards out there. I know guys that turn yards down and give them to the low ballers.

Do you really want yards that only pay half of what you want?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

Your welcome! I agree, if they only want to pay for mediocre at best service that's fine. It just bothers me. There are people out there like many of us that are trying to have a legitimate business that hopfully makes a little money at the end of the year and these guys come in, scoop up all sorts of jobs at bottom dollar... Ohh well... I've ranted. Now I'm done, thanks for lending an ear. I just keep telling myself that they'll be gone in a year or two. Chin up, have a great day everyone. Sun is shinning. Here in Vermont!!

BHLC said:

Your welcome! I agree, if they only want to pay for mediocre at best service that's fine. It just bothers me. There are people out there like many of us that are trying to have a legitimate business that hopfully makes a little money at the end of the year and these guys come in, scoop up all sorts of jobs at bottom dollar... Ohh well... I've ranted. Now I'm done, thanks for lending an ear. I just keep telling myself that they'll be gone in a year or two. Chin up, have a great day everyone. Sun is shinning. Here in Vermont!!

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First off my services are not mediocre.... I work alone have no overhead except taxes and gas. My quality is just as good if not better than most I just do it for less because I'm not out to get rich

exotion said:

First off my services are not mediocre.... I work alone have no overhead except taxes and gas. My quality is just as good if not better than most I just do it for less because I'm not out to get rich

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If your happy with what you get paid and with the job you do you don't have to explain anything to anyone.

Do we get mad at walmart because they sell pants at 1/3 the price as sears?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

I see the low ballers come and go year after year in my area. just dont play into the pricing games and stick to your normal pricing. It all works out in the end. They will need new equipment some day and not have any money to pay for it so they continue to low ball and do more yards until there tired of it and quit then someone else starts all over

Great point! Thank you.

BHLC said:

Lowballers drive me nuts and kill the industry! Thanks for putting it to us lowballers!

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OK, the Lowballers drive you nuts and you say they kill the industry but what about the other end of the spectrum? Do you approve of the guys that gouge the industry with there over or inflated pricing of lawn maintenance, I bet not. The thing is I've never heard any consumer/client that complained about low prices on anything, just the opposite that prices are to high for what they're receiving. That fact is inflated pricing hurts the industry more than the Lowballers.

Ric said:

OK, the Lowballers drive you nuts and you say they kill the industry but what about the other end of the spectrum? Do you approve of the guys that gouge the industry with there over or inflated pricing of lawn maintenance, I bet not. The thing is I've never heard any consumer/client that complained about low prices on anything, just the opposite that prices are to high for what they're receiving. That fact is inflated pricing hurts the industry more than the Lowballers.

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Just an off-topic aside, but same concept as eluded to by user Ric.......does anyone realize that Unions were a great concept back in the 40's but the ever-increasing arbitrations for ridiculous salaries and benefits( just how much $/year is putting bolts on a car door coming down the assembly line worth compared to other "occupations" requiring much more skills or physical extertion.....6 digits a year????). Now add the cheap labor prices for manufacturing garments in Indonesia and Vietnam.....well, there goes the textile industry in the U.S. or maybe the competiveness of steel manufactured in China......ouch Pittsburg and Allentown GONE as industrial giants(may as well rename the Steelers NFL team:0( and I could go on and on with examples like glass plants....now in Mexico and electronics in Japan. And we wonder WHY the United States is no longer the industrial leader of the world. IMHO, I answered that question in my very first sentence:0(

P.S.
Of couse it would be extremely difficult to offshore Lawn Maintenance, so you guys don't have THAT to worry about:0)
And, I'm probably going to get dinged by every user on the forum that is a Union worker.....but that's OK:0)
I've never had a problem negotiating my own salary and benefits in the I T industry for the last 43 years without paying someone to do that for me...but again the jobs in my career are quickly and agressively being off-shored or outsourced to India & Mexico(because, again same problem....they will do the job, just not as well.....for a lot less than I will)!!!

djdicetn said:

Just an off-topic aside, but same concept as eluded to by user Ric.......does anyone realize that Unions were a great concept back in the 40's but the ever-increasing arbitrations for ridiculous salaries and benefits( just how much $/year is putting bolts on a car door coming down the assembly line worth compared to other "occupations" requiring much more skills or physical extertion.....6 digits a year????). Now add the cheap labor prices for manufacturing garments in Indonesia and Vietnam.....well, there goes the textile industry in the U.S. or maybe the competiveness of steel manufactured in China......ouch Pittsburg and Allentown GONE as industrial giants(may as well rename the Steelers NFL team:0( and I could go on and on with examples like glass plants....now in Mexico and electronics in Japan. And we wonder WHY the United States is no longer the industrial leader of the world. IMHO, I answered that question in my very first sentence:0(

P.S.
Of couse it would be extremely difficult to offshore Lawn Maintenance, so you guys don't have THAT to worry about:0)
And, I'm probably going to get dinged by every user on the forum that is a Union worker.....but that's OK:0)
I've never had a problem negotiating my own salary and benefits in the I T industry for the last 43 years without paying someone to do that for me...but again the jobs in my career are quickly and agressively being off-shored or outsourced to India & Mexico(because, again same problem....they will do the job, just not as well.....for a lot less than I will)!!!

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I agree with what you said. and it's possible relationship to the lawn care business The lawn care business if not careful is going to end up going the way a lot of other businesses have, we are going to price our selves out of business. That's the reason I always question threads on lowballers, are they actually hurting the industry or are they helping by bringing the guys who think they need $50,$60,$70 an hour back to reality.

Ric said:

I agree with what you said. and it's possible relationship to the lawn care business The lawn care business if not careful is going to end up going the way a lot of other businesses have, we are going to price our selves out of business. That's the reason I always question threads on lowballers, are they actually hurting the industry or are they helping by bringing the guys who think they need $50,$60,$70 an hour back to reality.

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I hear ya....if I had known that I could make that kind of money I would have seriously re-considered a career in mainframe computer applications development/support(with 24/7 on-call requirement, lots of overtime..without hourly pay for those hours, stressful "drop-dead date" project implementations, and dealing with "doctor/lawyer" levels of responsibility stress...like right now, I support the ACH & Check Recon systems for TN Treasury that move literally millions upon millions of dollars daily for every penny the State takes in and spends). Yep, I could have been riding around on my ZTR, lovin' it(hey.......I KNOW there is more to what you do than that:0) and making the same kind of money!!!!

djdicetn said:

I hear ya....if I had known that I could make that kind of money I would have seriously re-considered a career in mainframe computer applications development/support(with 24/7 on-call requirement, lots of overtime..without hourly pay for those hours, stressful "drop-dead date" project implementations, and dealing with "doctor/lawyer" levels of responsibility stress...like right now, I support the ACH & Check Recon systems for TN Treasury that move literally millions upon millions of dollars daily for every penny the State takes in and spends). Yep, I could have been riding around on my ZTR, lovin' it(hey.......I KNOW there is more to what you do than that:0) and making the same kind of money!!!!

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We try to gross $60 an hour or better when we bid a job, however we bring to the table about $25k in equip when we come including the trailer but not the truck. With that said I see guys that will expect to make the same thing an hour that are running much less equipment.

In other words a job we bid for $45 we are there only a few minutes. Some guys around us will bid the same job at $50 to $60 and get mad if you underbid them. However we can be through, loaded back up and gone while they are still working on the same sized job. Then they call us "Low Ballers".

jekjr said:

We try to gross $60 an hour or better when we bid a job, however we bring to the table about $25k in equip when we come including the trailer but not the truck. With that said I see guys that will expect to make the same thing an hour that are running much less equipment.

In other words a job we bid for $45 we are there only a few minutes. Some guys around us will bid the same job at $50 to $60 and get mad if you underbid them. However we can be through, loaded back up and gone while they are still working on the same sized job. Then they call us "Low Ballers".

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Yep, it's pretty easy for somebody like me to criticize what is charged for lawn maintenance with absolutely no idea of everything that's involved in operating a business like that. Still not bad money though and I may have to consider some post retirement tax-free supplemental income as a scab, lowballing yard mower.........just kiddin' guys:0)

I would rather see a man with his old riding mower in the back of his old pickup cutting yards for half of what I would then to see the 5 none English speaking guys pull up in the bosses new truck hack the yard up in 15 mins and leave.

The man with his old truck is going to do the best job he can he needs every yard he can get.

The big crew is just going as fast as they can
If I was to pay to have my yard cut it would be the man with his mower in his truck he would know how I like things.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

I got your message and realize you were not targeting me. But I am a lowballer... I mow a hotel here in town the lowest bid they got besides me was 100 a week I charge 50.. it takes me just under 2 hrs.

Http://www.facebook.com/affordableoptionlawncare

I post pix a lot I am very proud of my work. My business supports me my wife and my two kids. I am buying a house as well. I lowball because that's what I work for I love my work I take pride in my work and I do it for a whole hell of a lot less than most guys

Around here lowballers have a bad rep. They just hurt themselves by cutting thier own wages in half! I don't mint them. What I so mind and hate are the ones with no tax I.D number!!!! Pay taxes or go to jail!!

jekjr said:

We try to gross $60 an hour or better when we bid a job, however we bring to the table about $25k in equip when we come including the trailer but not the truck. With that said I see guys that will expect to make the same thing an hour that are running much less equipment.

In other words a job we bid for $45 we are there only a few minutes. Some guys around us will bid the same job at $50 to $60 and get mad if you underbid them. However we can be through, loaded back up and gone while they are still working on the same sized job. Then they call us "Low Ballers".

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jekjr There are different ways in which one can lowball. You can lowball a competitor, or you can lowball a customer. and in a lot of cases when you lowball one you lowball the other. You say we bid for $45 we are there only a few minutes and that you're up and gone while they are still working on the same sized job. Now this is not to say that you are not doing the job but in a lot of cases the customer would rather see a business use a little more time to there yard because it makes them feel like there getting there moneys worth and that they care enough about there job and there yard to take that little extra time. Again not to say you are not doing the job but the end of your post reads Then they call us "Low Ballers. Always keep in mind that perception goes a long way in what one does.

I kinda agrea with exotion. I'm in the same boat, I have no overhead other than gas and taxes. He can charge less. But still I do not lowball. Why would someone cut there own wages is wierd. But every business structure is different. People gotta start somewhere.

AmericanTurf said:

I kinda agrea with exotion. I'm in the same boat, I have no overhead other than gas and taxes. He can charge less. But still I do not lowball. Why would someone cut there own wages is wierd. But every business structure is different. People gotta start somewhere.

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I'm the same way, I don't make payments on anything but as far as overhead goes if you have equipment you have overhead. It all cost money and it cost money too maintain it and use it and the more equipment you run the more overhead you have. Now Like exotion I don't run my business to get rich, I do it to pay my bills.

Ric said:

jekjr There are different ways in which one can lowball. You can lowball a competitor, or you can lowball a customer. and in a lot of cases when you lowball one you lowball the other. You say we bid for $45 we are there only a few minutes and that you're up and gone while they are still working on the same sized job. Now this is not to say that you are not doing the job but in a lot of cases the customer would rather see a business use a little more time to there yard because it makes them feel like there getting there moneys worth and that they care enough about there job and there yard to take that little extra time. Again not to say you are not doing the job but the end of your post reads Then they call us "Low Ballers. Always keep in mind that perception goes a long way in what one does.

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I understand what you are saying. There are some customers that think you outta sweat all day long for. Minimum wage. We strive to do a quality job. If you go to a job with good equipment you can do a good job and get gone. I see operators at times that will spend much more time in a yard but not do any better job. In fact without the proper equipment I see them work twice as long and not do any better job.

Regardless of how long it takes however quality has to be #1.

jekjr said:

I understand what you are saying. There are some customers that think you outta sweat all day long for. Minimum wage. We strive to do a quality job. If you go to a job with good equipment you can do a good job and get gone. I see operators at times that will spend much more time in a yard but not do any better job. In fact without the proper equipment I see them work twice as long and not do any better job.

Regardless of how long it takes however quality has to be #1.

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I agree. Has anyone checked out my pictures?

exotion said:

I agree. Has anyone checked out my pictures?

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I assume your talking about the pictures on Facebook, if so and I checked them out.

Just a homeowner but seems like true cost review and break even points will eventually drive prices to a similar level among competitors. Some may not truly know their operating cost and be paying themselves a salary. No, I am not a bean counter.

exotion said:

I agree. Has anyone checked out my pictures?

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Ric said:

I assume your talking about the pictures on Facebook, if so and I checked them out.

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I have! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hi all:

Homeowner here.

As a philosophical question, how are you defining "lowball?' What I am seeing is simply a free market at work.

I used to work in service/retail, and I hear customers' complaints of price gouging in the industry all the time. I have always defined "gouging" as "charging more than the customer wants to pay." The remedy for that is to shop elsewhere. The "gouger" has no customers. Problem solved.

Similarly I define lowballing as "charging less than the competition wants to earn."

I guess it's all in perspective.

Let me explain my gripe... Large commercial prospect requests bid. Bid to include spring clean up, 10 yards mulch, grass mowed to a height of 2-2 1/2 inches(yes this means more than one visit a week) 7 acres of grass, 1 acre parking lot, clean up and removal of all sand from previous winter, plowing every 1-2 inches in the winter with salt and sand as needed, trimming hedges 3 times a year, maintain flower beds through out season, I think thats it in a nut shell... Anyway, you professionals out there, figure a price, I'll tell you mine, $10896.00. There were 5 bids, $10896, $11580, $9800, $11000 and last but not least...$4200! Please tell me how you can do it all for $4200? Do I have a legitimate gripe?

I'm not talking about Joe and Lisa's 1/2 acre lawn down the street that the neighborhood kid will do for $10.

BHLC said:

Let me explain my gripe... Large commercial prospect requests bid. Bid to include spring clean up, 10 yards mulch, grass mowed to a height of 2-2 1/2 inches(yes this means more than one visit a week) 7 acres of grass, 1 acre parking lot, clean up and removal of all sand from previous winter, plowing every 1-2 inches in the winter with salt and sand as needed, trimming hedges 3 times a year, maintain flower beds through out season, I think thats it in a nut shell... Anyway, you professionals out there, figure a price, I'll tell you mine, $10896.00. There were 5 bids, $10896, $11580, $9800, $11000 and last but not least...$4200! Please tell me how you can do it all for $4200? Do I have a legitimate gripe?

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Trust me. I get it. I don't work in the lawn cutting industry but I'm in the communications industry where anyone with an iPad thinks they're a pro. It sucks, I understand.

My question is this - $4200 is SUCH an outlier than anyone would question whether their bid actually met spec. Genuine curiosity here. Is there something he's not including that everyone else is? My gut reaction is that he'll work his a** off until he goes under working at 50% of market price.

It SEEMS to me that you have a gripe if he bid under cost and intends to make up the difference with contract differentials and such. But such practices tend to p*** off customers. I'm curious if the customer is willing to maintain the business relationship if the end product is sub-par.

BHLC said:

Let me explain my gripe... Large commercial prospect requests bid. Bid to include spring clean up, 10 yards mulch, grass mowed to a height of 2-2 1/2 inches(yes this means more than one visit a week) 7 acres of grass, 1 acre parking lot, clean up and removal of all sand from previous winter, plowing every 1-2 inches in the winter with salt and sand as needed, trimming hedges 3 times a year, maintain flower beds through out season, I think thats it in a nut shell... Anyway, you professionals out there, figure a price, I'll tell you mine, $10896.00. There were 5 bids, $10896, $11580, $9800, $11000 and last but not least...$4200! Please tell me how you can do it all for $4200? Do I have a legitimate gripe?

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Lol I would not even bid I'm not even remotely interested in that size job lol

BHLC said:

Let me explain my gripe... Large commercial prospect requests bid. Bid to include spring clean up, 10 yards mulch, grass mowed to a height of 2-2 1/2 inches(yes this means more than one visit a week) 7 acres of grass, 1 acre parking lot, clean up and removal of all sand from previous winter, plowing every 1-2 inches in the winter with salt and sand as needed, trimming hedges 3 times a year, maintain flower beds through out season, I think thats it in a nut shell... Anyway, you professionals out there, figure a price, I'll tell you mine, $10896.00. There were 5 bids, $10896, $11580, $9800, $11000 and last but not least...$4200! Please tell me how you can do it all for $4200? Do I have a legitimate gripe?

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DonCT said:

Trust me. I get it. I don't work in the lawn cutting industry but I'm in the communications industry where anyone with an iPad thinks they're a pro. It sucks, I understand.

My question is this - $4200 is SUCH an outlier than anyone would question whether their bid actually met spec. Genuine curiosity here. Is there something he's not including that everyone else is? My gut reaction is that he'll work his a** off until he goes under working at 50% of market price.

It SEEMS to me that you have a gripe if he bid under cost and intends to make up the difference with contract differentials and such. But such practices tend to p*** off customers. I'm curious if the customer is willing to maintain the business relationship if the end product is sub-par.

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At the present time the market will not hold up to the prices you and the others quoted and probably never will again. People don't have and aren't willing to spend the money on things that aren't necessary. Prices or bids like that $4200 along with the fact that you can get into the business without to much of an investment has opened it up to to all kinds people. Get used to it, as long as you have someone that's willing to do the job to make a living and not get rich you're going to have those types of bids and people who will work there a** off to do the job. Do you have a grip, No more than I do about the guy who will cut a law for $10 a cut. It's basically our own fault.

I've been in contact with the property manager, they agree the low bidder is not providing services as requested and they will be asking for a rebid. Hmmm... Kind of blows your theory...

Further more, in this to get rich? I don't know many people "getting rich" I do know I have a bottom line, I need to pay myself, pay my help, pay my insurance, pay for my gas. Bottom line $43 a man hour, now where's profit?

BHLC said:

Further more, in this to get rich? I don't know many people "getting rich" I do know I have a bottom line, I need to pay myself, pay my help, pay my insurance, pay for my gas. Bottom line $43 a man hour, now where's profit?

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So your saying you have to make $43 per man hour just to brake even?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

Yes. Paying myself 1st, then my guy, and etc. if I don't want a paycheck it could be less. Also to keep the best help you have to pay them.

$4200 means the customer will suffer from it. The bidders will not make it past the first few weeks. They will realize they can't make it and are losing money. The higher bidders will be around for a long time!!! They make a profit. Americans will continue to pay higher prices simply because they are weak and cannot do it themselves. The lowballers come and go and that's a fact.

So for every hour your helper works it cost you $43?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

A four man crew means you charge $172 a hour

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

I don't have a 4 man crew! I have me and a helper. 2 man crew. Every company is different.

Keep in mind a 2 man crew can do in 30-35mins what a 1 man crew can do in an hour. So my $43.00 per man hour is a $43 job on the above example.

Some jobs vary also. But if you look into all the insurances(liability, workers comp, etc.) cost of repairs, overtime, gas, new or replacement equipment, tires on trailers or trucks, accountant, taxes, advertising, time for doing the office work, the list goes on...

As DonCT suggests, so called "market force" is at work when a naive customer takes the low ball and the vendor falls on sword. You cannot tutor customers. They must learn the hard way sometimes. The customer should have requested testimonials. Motivated sellers ( lawn services) with willing buyers - we may not like it but this IRS ground rule works mostly. No I am not a bean counter.:laughing:

Ric said:

At the present time the market will not hold up to the prices you and the others quoted and probably never will again. People don't have and aren't willing to spend the money on things that aren't necessary. Prices or bids like that $4200 along with the fact that you can get into the business without to much of an investment has opened it up to to all kinds people. Get used to it, as long as you have someone that's willing to do the job to make a living and not get rich you're going to have those types of bids and people who will work there a** off to do the job. Do you have a grip, No more than I do about the guy who will cut a law for $10 a cut. It's basically our own fault.

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BHLC said:

I've been in contact with the property manager, they agree the low bidder is not providing services as requested and they will be asking for a rebid. Hmmm... Kind of blows your theory...

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Actually No it doesn't blow my theory at all. Someone said Americans will continue to pay higher prices, if that were true the company wouldn't have taken the 4200 bid in the first place, they would have taken the higher bid first however. The Problem is the next bid that they will take will be in the same ballpark, maybe $5000 or $6000. Don't worry they'll get the job done as cheap as they can and there will be someone that will do it cheaper and be successful, maybe the job wont be done right but it will be good enough to pass. If they don't whom ever is taking the bids is stupid. I mean really you don't take bids to pay the highest prices.

Always remember the best price is not necessarily the cheapest price.

jekjr said:

Always remember the best price is not necessarily the cheapest price.

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Exactly!! Most responsible clients know that by paying the higher price means they get that old saying "you get what you pay for". Haha.

AmericanTurf said:

Exactly!! Most responsible clients know that by paying the higher price means they get that old saying "you get what you pay for". Haha.

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Sometimes... let's take senske here in town I watch them pull up to a lawn 3 guys jump out run around like banshees one guy picks his wedge for 10 mins they mow string edge and blow and leave 20 mins there.

I go over there I ask how much they charge he says 50 dollars. I told him id charge 25 and do twice the work I take 30 mins putting a proper edge on it I re cut it to make it smooth and now I have a new customer.

Point is you do not always get what you pay for. I do not buy name brand cloths because I can get the same thing for less at target. Except carharrt.

Most crews take only 15 min because they are awesome at what they do! I can't stand when people say they take longer to do the job right. Ummm maybe if you don't line trim like a little sissy 8 yr old girl... It would not take 30 min to do a 15 min job. Haha!!!! And that's a fact jack!

Lowballers don't wear name brand clothes because they are low income, hence low ballers.

AmericanTurf said:

Lowballers don't wear name brand clothes because they are low income, hence low ballers.

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Good thing you are capable of reading my post? I said they threw down a string edge mulched and looked like garbage I don't give two cents about big company's they lose their touch the bigger they get. My work is better than most of them I am not low income I make about 5500 a month. So how about next time before you go shoot off your mouth read a little bit first ehh?

Exotion, are you still working both jobs? The big name company and yourself? Just out of curiosity.

BHLC said:

Exotion, are you still working both jobs? The big name company and yourself? Just out of curiosity.

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He is 100% out on his own.
By the sound of things he is doing good.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

Congrats! Is the $5500 a month after paying Uncle Sam, insurance, fuel, etc?

BHLC said:

Congrats! Is the $5500 a month after paying Uncle Sam, insurance, fuel, etc?

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Unfortunately not lol but we are doing quite well I was making about 1800 a month with my last job so ya

exotion said:

Unfortunately not lol but we are doing quite well I was making about 1800 a month with my last job so ya

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I don't know you from Adam, but based upon your posts on these forums that I have read......I'd let you mow my yard & do my landscaping:0)
And, it would't cost me an arm & a leg and would look like I did it(IMHO, that's what a customer REALLY wants is for somebody to do it as though it were "their yard":0)
P.S.
Of course i'd have to pay you a little extra from coming all the way to Tennessee:0)

djdicetn said:

I don't know you from Adam, but based upon your posts on these forums that I have read......I'd let you mow my yard & do my landscaping:0)
And, it would't cost me an arm & a leg and would look like I did it(IMHO, that's what a customer REALLY wants is for somebody to do it as though it were "their yard":0)
P.S.
Of course i'd have to pay you a little extra from coming all the way to Tennessee:0)

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Well if you have the equipment and plane tickets id only charge 10 dollars per 1500 sq ft lol

djdicetn said:

I don't know you from Adam, but based upon your posts on these forums that I have read......I'd let you mow my yard & do my landscaping:0)
And, it would't cost me an arm & a leg and would look like I did it(IMHO, that's what a customer REALLY wants is for somebody to do it as though it were "their yard":0)
P.S.
Of course i'd have to pay you a little extra from coming all the way to Tennessee:0)

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I will second that.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

exotion said:

Sometimes... let's take senske here in town I watch them pull up to a lawn 3 guys jump out run around like banshees one guy picks his wedge for 10 mins they mow string edge and blow and leave 20 mins there.

I go over there I ask how much they charge he says 50 dollars. I told him id charge 25 and do twice the work I take 30 mins putting a proper edge on it I re cut it to make it smooth and now I have a new customer.

Point is you do not always get what you pay for. I do not buy name brand cloths because I can get the same thing for less at target. Except carharrt.

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Ok when you go over and ask what they're charging this individual that is not ethical for you as a business and the person or client telling you what they are charging him is being unethical in telling you. Now if the guy or client approaches you and tells you the situation because he is not happy and wants to know what you would charge him fine. What you did is under handed and low and a good way for you and your business too earn a bad reputation. That's where the term Lowballer comes from and that's what you did to that business.

Ric said:

Ok when you go over and ask what they're charging this individual that is not ethical for you as a business and the person or client telling you what they are charging him is being unethical in telling you. Now if the guy or client approaches you and tells you the situation because he is not happy and wants to know what you would charge him fine. What you did is under handed and low and a good way for you and your business too earn a bad reputation. That's where the term Lowballer comes from and that's what you did to that business.

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Good point and I agree but would you feel the same way if he went over there and took the yard and charged $10 more than the other guys?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

Carscw said:

Good point and I agree but would you feel the same way if he went over there and took the yard and charged $10 more than the other guys?

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

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Thing is if it were me and I was not happy with the crew of three that was doing my lawn I'd have to research some Lawn Maintenance crews before I hired another. If I were to pay more there would be some references involved as well as seeing some of the company's work. To get another firm cheaper would not be a loss if I'm not happy with what I have now.

BHLC said:

Let me explain my gripe... Large commercial prospect requests bid. Bid to include spring clean up, 10 yards mulch, grass mowed to a height of 2-2 1/2 inches(yes this means more than one visit a week) 7 acres of grass, 1 acre parking lot, clean up and removal of all sand from previous winter, plowing every 1-2 inches in the winter with salt and sand as needed, trimming hedges 3 times a year, maintain flower beds through out season, I think thats it in a nut shell... Anyway, you professionals out there, figure a price, I'll tell you mine, $10896.00. There were 5 bids, $10896, $11580, $9800, $11000 and last but not least...$4200! Please tell me how you can do it all for $4200? Do I have a legitimate gripe?

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I don't do mulch, but they are spending a lot on 10 yards of mulch. Also the amount of gas they will use through out the season is probably going to be $700-1000 just for that property. They are not going to have any profit margin

ericds said:

I don't do mulch, but they are spending a lot on 10 yards of mulch. Also the amount of gas they will use through out the season is probably going to be $700-1000 just for that property. They are not going to have any profit margin

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Iagree with what you are saying but at the same time your figures may not be accurate. Who's to say what a company can buy mulch for or how much money they spend on gas? With no overhead, the discounts some of the businesses get and using the who you know advantage it would be hard to say what this individuals profit margin is and how much he wants or needs to survive. Everybody's wants needs, and bottom line are different.

True, like I said I don't do mulch often, and when i do I only do a little for residential. I mostly just mow, lead cleanup, and snow removal for half acre residential lots. I don't have any commercial, yet, but I was just trying to make a point that after all costs, such as gas, materials, and paying helpers that the company wouldn't do well on that client

eric, An intelligent buyer would throw out the low ball, especially in view of the relatively tight grouping of the other bids. I am not in the biz , but I imagine such a job is very attractive to you. If the "market" works properly you and your competition would be busy when the low baller cannot perform. Then your bid can go up due to the risk you take fitting that big job in. If that seems absurd. The flip side (theory) says there are too many suppliers.

motoman said:

eric, An intelligent buyer would throw out the low ball, especially in view of the relatively tight grouping of the other bids. I am not in the biz , but I imagine such a job is very attractive to you. If the "market" works properly you and your competition would be busy when the low baller cannot perform. Then your bid can go up due to the risk you take fitting that big job in. If that seems absurd. The flip side (theory) says there are too many suppliers.

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An Intelligent buyer? That's the problem, when it comes to money intelligence gets waived every time. They will get the job done as cheap as they can, that's the reason for the bids. If they're putting a job out for bid they are not taking bids to pay the highest prices. There are just to many small businesses out there willing to work cheap and do a reasonable job. That's the reason so many complain about the Lowballer.

Ric, My talk is just as a bystander, so perhaps i should stop... You as a buyer (of things) are intellligent if you can get satisfactoy things cheap. It stretches your resources. If the lowball guy is doing a satisfactory job in the same geographical area something is wrong in the "free" market. Has he hired illegals and paid slave wage? Does he have a secret machine (s)? His bid is so much lower either that is true or all the others are expecting windfall profits (unlikely). An unlikely scenario is that he is doing "loss leader" so once others are driven out of business he raises prices to recover his previous losses. The latter has worked for book stores who drove the little guys out. If you guys with the group of higher bids wait you will see this other guy fail unless he has a secret, or doesn't know he is going broke paying himself to be low bidder.

motoman said:

Ric, My talk is just as a bystander, so perhaps i should stop... You as a buyer (of things) are intelligent if you can get satisfactory things cheap. It stretches your resources. If the lowball guy is doing a satisfactory job in the same geographical area something is wrong in the "free" market. Has he hired illegals and paid slave wage? Does he have a secret machine (s)? His bid is so much lower either that is true or all the others are expecting windfall profits (unlikely). An unlikely scenario is that he is doing "loss leader" so once others are driven out of business he raises prices to recover his previous losses. The latter has worked for book stores who drove the little guys out. If you guys with the group of higher bids wait you will see this other guy fail unless he has a secret, or doesn't know he is going broke paying himself to be low bidder.

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Now don't get me wrong because I know where BHLC and some of the others are coming from and I'd be Pis***off also, but I think the thing about this guy that has under bid everyone is the fact that he is doing the job at very little cost to him. All he is spending is time. His bid is much lower than the others that is true but at the same time the others I could guess are looking for big profit margin. I'm guessing that most likely this guy doesn't pay insurance or any thing else, he's most likely showing up to do the job with a residential equipment all purchased from Home Depot for a grand total of 2 or 3K so what overhead is involved for him besides gas and some two stroke oil and at the present he is buying his gas using a Winn Dixie card a dollar a gallon cheaper than the pump price to save money and he is using every trick in the book to cut his cost.

I also believe this guys life style could play a big part in what he has to bid. Is the guy living in a half million dollar home with a $2500 a month house payment, I seriously doubt it's more like a twenty year old double wide and drives a 1984 F-150 Ford pickup and is as happy as a pig in you know what and his only overhead is his beer money :drink:

The thing about the Lowballers is they don't care about there bottom line and what type of profit or how much they actually make after taxes at the end of the year which they probably don't even file. They live day to day and for the present and that's how they run there business that's the reason there here today gone tomorrow.

Hi. Interesting thread. I think it is just best to let the market set your prices. When we started we were a bit expensive and gradually we dropped our quotes and hourly rate until we found a level that got around 70% of jobs quoted for. We figure around 70% conversion is about right. Other wise you are too cheap. Can't figure out why you would lowball. No need too. Plenty of work out there, just have to make sure your competitive with others in your area. That's it. Different areas will give you different rates. Know your areas. Know the market in those areas.

Ric, Two things I picked out of your examples...His tractor is a big box unit. In my limited lawn mowing and studying this forum I know now that durable , capable equipment is the best investment for commercial use. If the lowballer has 2-3 Intek 24's (my only ref) he's on his way to broken commitments and limited mowing capabilities. This result over a couple years will reduce whatever reputation he had to a low level. I understand when I pass a pro here with his trailer and top end equipment . You cannot perform daily with marginal stuff . I am willing to fuss with my Crafstman whenever. The other item to be just touched on is overhead. A bean counter concept which is seldom fully understood and a science. I am not an accountant, but I believe many small business people are close or below breakeven points and don't know it. The cash flow keeps them afloat. There are several examples in my family. I admire small businessmen and know that the satisfaction gained will overcome a lot of facts. You might not believe the factors a cost accountant would evaluate to determine if a profit is being made in a particular enterprise. Anyway , in a former life I had my nose rubbed thoroughly in bidding and evaluation of vendors. If customers don't investigate , shame on them. They will pay in the end.

motoman said:

Ric, Two things I picked out of your examples...His tractor is a big box unit. In my limited lawn mowing and studying this forum I know now that durable , capable equipment is the best investment for commercial use. If the lowballer has 2-3 Intek 24's (my only ref) he's on his way to broken commitments and limited mowing capabilities. This result over a couple years will reduce whatever reputation he had to a low level. I understand when I pass a pro here with his trailer and top end equipment . You cannot perform daily with marginal stuff . I am willing to fuss with my Crafstman whenever. The other item to be just touched on is overhead. A bean counter concept which is seldom fully understood and a science. I am not an accountant, but I believe many small business people are close or below breakeven points and don't know it. The cash flow keeps them afloat. There are several examples in my family. I admire small businessmen and know that the satisfaction gained will overcome a lot of facts. You might not believe the factors a cost accountant would evaluate to determine if a profit is being made in a particular enterprise. Anyway , in a former life I had my nose rubbed thoroughly in bidding and evaluation of vendors. If customers don't investigate , shame on them. They will pay in the end.

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Motoman I agree with everything you said, the guy probably wont be in business long but long enough to mess someone else or another business up. You are correct in saying they're close or below breakeven points and don't know it, and they depend on there daily cash flow keeps them afloat, that's exactly what they want. What they will eventually end up doing is working for the banks or HUD doing foreclosures because they don't have equipment needed or are not able to do any type commercial or residential work. The big problem with lowballers finally going out of business is when they do there's two more to take his place and for the guys that have the legit business and has had for a number of years busting his hump it becomes a battle he can't win.

This thread puts me in mind of a thread or Rant I started back in 2011 about the guys just starting out in the business and earning the name of lowballer ya'll mite find it interesting reading and comparing what was said then as to now, it drew about 6 pages it was called humm-breaking-into-professional-lawn-care-business

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/comme...ing-into-professional-lawn-care-business.html

Ric , just read your other thread Humm breaking into the lawncare business. Very interesting reading

Ric said:

Motoman I agree with everything you said, the guy probably wont be in business long but long enough to mess someone else or another business up. You are correct in saying they're close or below breakeven points and don't know it, and they depend on there daily cash flow keeps them afloat, that's exactly what they want. What they will eventually end up doing is working for the banks or HUD doing foreclosures because they don't have equipment needed or are not able to do any type commercial or residential work. The big problem with lowballers finally going out of business is when they do there's two more to take his place and for the guys that have the legit business and has had for a number of years busting his hump it becomes a battle he can't win.

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I love doing HUD homes $45 for a 20 min yard.
Doing 86 this week. Don't have deal with homeowners.
Guys in most neighborhoods that i cut HUD homes in only get $25 to $30 a yard.
That's what most people don't understand is HUD pays more than a homeowner will pay.
I did 18 yards today with my what you call junk equipment. I use what I use because that's what I like and want to use. For years I did residential woke up one day and said I don't want it anymore so I sold my residential company this past December doing HUD homes is relaxing and good easy money. In two years I will retire and sub all my yards out.

Everything I have is paid for and has paid for it self.
Most guys out there with the big mowers cutting yards for $25 take 2 years to pay for it. Pay no taxes have no insurance. To do HUD you have to have insurance and workers comp.

10 grand for a mower at $25 a yard is just dumb

My cub cost $1200 I will sell it in November for $500 and buy a new one for next year.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

mowerman05 said:

Ric , just read your other thread Humm breaking into the lawncare business. Very interesting reading

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Yeah there were a lot of good reply's and some very interesting points of view.

Carscw said:

I love doing HUD homes $45 for a 20 min yard.
Doing 86 this week. Don't have deal with homeowners.
Guys in most neighborhoods that i cut HUD homes in only get $25 to $30 a yard.
That's what most people don't understand is HUD pays more than a homeowner will pay.
I did 18 yards today with my what you call junk equipment. I use what I use because that's what I like and want to use. For years I did residential woke up one day and said I don't want it anymore so I sold my residential company this past December doing HUD homes is relaxing and good easy money. In two years I will retire and sub all my yards out.

Everything I have is paid for and has paid for it self.
Most guys out there with the big mowers cutting yards for $25 take 2 years to pay for it. Pay no taxes have no insurance. To do HUD you have to have insurance and workers comp.

10 grand for a mower at $25 a yard is just dumb

My cub cost $1200 I will sell it in November for $500 and buy a new one for next year.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))

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Must be a lot different there then here. The guys here that do them don't have any insurance or workman's comp and I talked to a few and there getting like 7 to 10 a yard. If you're lucky enough you can get hired to one of the bigger outfits that sub out the homes and those guys don't even need equipment, it's all supplied. They show up and get a truck, trailer, a ZTR, trimmer and hand held blower and a camera and all the gas they need they don't buy a thing. They are handed a list of 100 yards and have 5 days to complete the list if they don't they don't take them back. You can keep the bank owned and HUD homes.

I made a good deal of money on those homes last year. Of the 10 homes I was doing (they wanted me to do more, I was too busy) I brought in over $5k just doing them. They pay based on grass height, if it was too long for the z I'd charge them a trip charge then give them a brush hog quote. It was a good little bonus, and I found their prices were often times higher than what I would have charged! Guess I know where a lot of my tax dollars are going!

forclosed homes around here dont pay very much as well. Its not worth hitting something with your mower in the grass for a few bucks and then be down a piece of equipment thats needed to complete the days work. My mowers are made to cut grass not be used as a brush hog, they cost way to much to misuse them.

That's why if they're too long I get my brush hog