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HRR2168VKA rear wheels locking up - dealer can't seem to fix

Jun 7, 2013#1

R

RicB

The rear wheels completely lock up when attempting to pull it backwards about 80% of the time. A local Honda dealer has had this mower for close to 2 months now and in their own words, "we are clueless". A Honda rep was called in and recommended replacing pulleys and the belt. They said that fix made the problem even worse. When I bought this mower, I noticed that the left front wheel rides in the air when on a level surface. I should have returned it but didn't, as it didn't seem to affect the functioning of the mower. Is it possible that a mis alignment of the deck/wheels is causing the lock up condition? I last spoke with them 1 week ago and they stated that they were calling the rep in again, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.

Jun 7, 2013#2

robert@honda

RicB said:
The rear wheels completely lock up when attempting to pull it backwards about 80% of the time. A local Honda dealer has had this mower for close to 2 months now and in their own words, "we are clueless". A Honda rep was called in and recommended replacing pulleys and the belt. They said that fix made the problem even worse. When I bought this mower, I noticed that the left front wheel rides in the air when on a level surface. I should have returned it but didn't, as it didn't seem to affect the functioning of the mower. Is it possible that a mis alignment of the deck/wheels is causing the lock up condition? I last spoke with them 1 week ago and they stated that they were calling the rep in again, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.

If the dealer has not already looked at it, tell them to review the most current HRR shop manual; in the section 2.7, there's an entire section on Drive System Troubleshooting, including the most recent K8 and K9 models (you have a K8). There are some specific tests and procedures which should quickly determine the true cause of the problems.

A slightly floating wheel is not a big deal. It sometimes happens due to ever-so-slight variations in steels and desk tooling, but has been found NOT to affect cut/finish quality.

If you feel the dealer is not responding in good faith or meeting your expectations, you are welcome to contact Honda Customer Relations 770-497-6400

Jun 8, 2013#3

R

RicB

Thank you for the reply Robert. The dealer initially adjusted the smartdrive cable, disassembled the wheels, cleaning and lubing the ratchets, cleaned/lubed the axles and bushings. Whether or not they did any other troubleshooting, I don't know. When this didn't fix it, they called in the Honda rep, for some "schooling", as they put it. Their main business is John Deere and have only been selling Hondas for a couple of years now and may not have run into this type of problem before. I know this is a very busy time of year for these folks and since I didn't buy the mower from them, realize that they might give a higher priority to someone who purchased their equipment there. I can't fault them for that.

I have had some issues also with cold starts. Sometimes it starts up on the 1st or 2nd pull, other times it may take 15 or more. Once warmed up, it restarts with no problem. I took the air filter off one day when it was acting up and discovered the choke plate was open with the engine cold, so the problem seems to be with the auto choke. My pressure washer has the same Honda engine, but with a manual choke. It never fails to start right up. My question is, can my mower be fitted with the same manual choke? I see that in another thread, you posted a service bulletin #98. As I read it, it would not seem to apply in my case would it? The serial# is MZCG-8414370.

Jun 10, 2013#4

robert@honda

RicB said:
Thank you for the reply Robert. The dealer initially adjusted the smartdrive cable, disassembled the wheels, cleaning and lubing the ratchets, cleaned/lubed the axles and bushings. Whether or not they did any other troubleshooting, I don't know. When this didn't fix it, they called in the Honda rep, for some "schooling", as they put it. Their main business is John Deere and have only been selling Hondas for a couple of years now and may not have run into this type of problem before. I know this is a very busy time of year for these folks and since I didn't buy the mower from them, realize that they might give a higher priority to someone who purchased their equipment there. I can't fault them for that.

I have had some issues also with cold starts. Sometimes it starts up on the 1st or 2nd pull, other times it may take 15 or more. Once warmed up, it restarts with no problem. I took the air filter off one day when it was acting up and discovered the choke plate was open with the engine cold, so the problem seems to be with the auto choke. My pressure washer has the same Honda engine, but with a manual choke. It never fails to start right up. My question is, can my mower be fitted with the same manual choke? I see that in another thread, you posted a service bulletin #98. As I read it, it would not seem to apply in my case would it? The serial# is MZCG-8414370.

Your serial number IS in the affected range of mowers that may have a restart problem if the engine has not been fully warmed up. Per the bulletin, a typical problem can happen if you start a cold engine, then shut it down before it warms up, and try an restart it up again. The fix is to replace the thermo-wax cylinder, and use a proper amount of HondaBond HT to ensure correct heat transfer. Finally, the choke control assembly should be inspected and tested for any binding. New gaskets wrap up the job.

Your serial number shows the mower was sold at retail on 3/3/2012, with full factory warranty in effect until 3/2/2016. From what you've told me, it appears both problems should be covered under Honda's warranty, but double-check with your dealer to be sure and before authorizing any repairs.

Jun 10, 2013#5

Ric

RicB said:
The rear wheels completely lock up when attempting to pull it backwards about 80% of the time. A local Honda dealer has had this mower for close to 2 months now and in their own words, "we are clueless". A Honda rep was called in and recommended replacing pulleys and the belt. They said that fix made the problem even worse. When I bought this mower, I noticed that the left front wheel rides in the air when on a level surface. I should have returned it but didn't, as it didn't seem to affect the functioning of the mower. Is it possible that a mis alignment of the deck/wheels is causing the lock up condition? I last spoke with them 1 week ago and they stated that they were calling the rep in again, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.

The rear wheels locking up is common for the the Honda, I've owned three and all have done the same thing and as your dealer said everyone is clueless. It can be fixed but they will not do what needs to be done at the shop to fix it and you probably wouldn't like the fix. It's called grease.

Jun 19, 2013#6

R

RicB

Ric said:
The rear wheels locking up is common for the the Honda, I've owned three and all have done the same thing and as your dealer said everyone is clueless. It can be fixed but they will not do what needs to be done at the shop to fix it and you probably wouldn't like the fix. It's called grease.

Well, the dealer called this morning and said they "thought" the mower was fixed. I went to pick it up and the wheels were locked up solid (going backwards). They said that the Honda rep had sent to them "an updated adjustment procedure for the transaxle". They also had adjusted the smart drive cable, yet again, loosening it to the point that the drive belt had so little tension as to be useless. I didn't have any confidence at this point that they were ever going to repair it, so brought it home.

Ric, your reply didn't make much sense to me at first because after I initially took the mower in, the mechanic told me that he had taken the wheel assembly all apart and cleaned and lubed everything (ratchets, axle, etc.) and it still didn't help. After getting it home today, I was piddling around with it a little and your mention of grease was in the back of my mind. Looking up underneath the deck where the axle runs through the deck/wheel adjuster bushings, I was expecting to see where a little bit of grease had worked out from between the bushings and axle, but it looked dry. I didn't know how to take that apart, so squirted a fair amount of an oil that I have called Tri-Flow, into that area, just to see if it would loosen things up. It helped, quite a bit in fact for a little while, but I didn't expect a light oil to really work where a grease was called for. I decided then to see what else wasn't greased and took off a wheel and the gear/ratchet. There was some caked on crud and NO grease, it was dry as a bone. I cleaned it up and applied some white lithium grease, the wheel bearing grease I have seemed too heavy for this application. I did the same to the other wheel then spent the next 20 minutes or so mowing and working it back and forth around my shrubs and whatnot. It didn't lock up ONCE. In another week or so my yard will need mowing again and I can give it a better workout then over the entire yard, but it is looking promising. I appreciate your advice on this.

Robert, thank you for your help as well. I am hoping that I have a better understanding of what is going on here now. I am assuming that I need to order a shop manual from Honda's Ebay store now and figure out how to get some grease into the deck/adjuster bushings that the axle rides on. Or is this teflon based oil that I have sufficient?

Jun 19, 2013#7

R

RicB

This is a photo I snapped of the left wheel just as it appeared, after disassembling it. I expected to see GREASE, but it was completely dry.

Jun 19, 2013#8

robert@honda

RicB said:
Robert, thank you for your help as well. I am hoping that I have a better understanding of what is going on here now. I am assuming that I need to order a shop manual from Honda's Ebay store now and figure out how to get some grease into the deck/adjuster bushings that the axle rides on. Or is this teflon based oil that I have sufficient?

Sorry to hear of the poor service at that dealer, even after the Honda rep was involved. That's very frustrating for both of us.

A shop manual is a excellent resource to have. A variant of that old saying "Tools, Talent, Technical Information: Pick two, and you can get the job done" surely applies to lawn mower maintenance and repair. I would ask you to send me a PM with your email and the serial number off the back of the mower deck "MXXX-1234567" and let me give you some help in that area, Ric.

Any off-the-shelf NLGI Grade #2 general purpose lithium-type grease is suitable for lubrication on shafts, axles, gears, pivots, etc. A quick Google gets this:

Castrol MP Multi-Purpose Chassis Grease NLGI #2 lithium based (14.5 OZ TUBE) | Product Details | Pep Boys

Here's the two locations on the real axle where grease is absolutely needed:

Jun 20, 2013#9

R

RicB

robert@honda said:
Sorry to hear of the poor service at that dealer, even after the Honda rep was involved. That's very frustrating for both of us.

A shop manual is a excellent resource to have. A variant of that old saying "Tools, Talent, Technical Information: Pick two, and you can get the job done" surely applies to lawn mower maintenance and repair. I would ask you to send me a PM with your email and the serial number off the back of the mower deck "MXXX-1234567" and let me give you some help in that area, Ric.

Any off-the-shelf NLGI Grade #2 general purpose lithium-type grease is suitable for lubrication on shafts, axles, gears, pivots, etc. A quick Google gets this:

Castrol MP Multi-Purpose Chassis Grease NLGI #2 lithium based (14.5 OZ TUBE) | Product Details | Pep Boys

Here's the two locations on the real axle where grease is absolutely needed:

It looks like the NLGI #2 mp lithium grease that I used will work. Thanks you much for that diagram. The locations for the grease are especially helpful. The one problem that I ran into was in removing the circlips. The Craftsman snap ring pliers that I have, just were not up to the job. The larger tips were too large to fit into the holes and the smaller tips broke too easily. Does this pair look as though they would be sufficient? I don't have access to a tool truck so will need to find something in a store or online.

Thank you again for all of your help.

Jun 21, 2013#10

R

Ragnrok23

robert@honda said:
Sorry to hear of the poor service at that dealer, even after the Honda rep was involved. That's very frustrating for both of us.

A shop manual is a excellent resource to have. A variant of that old saying "Tools, Talent, Technical Information: Pick two, and you can get the job done" surely applies to lawn mower maintenance and repair. I would ask you to send me a PM with your email and the serial number off the back of the mower deck "MXXX-1234567" and let me give you some help in that area, Ric.

Any off-the-shelf NLGI Grade #2 general purpose lithium-type grease is suitable for lubrication on shafts, axles, gears, pivots, etc. A quick Google gets this:

Castrol MP Multi-Purpose Chassis Grease NLGI #2 lithium based (14.5 OZ TUBE) | Product Details | Pep Boys

Here's the two locations on the real axle where grease is absolutely needed:

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I just got a new HRX217HYA, mowed for the first time last night. My "passenger" side rear wheel kept slipping out of it's hight. I tried tightening the bolt on the outside, but it was already pretty tight. I see there are a lot of parts between the two points, so I was curious where I should concentrate my efforts on?

Thanks!

Jun 21, 2013#11

robert@honda

Ragnrok23 said:
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I just got a new HRX217HYA, mowed for the first time last night. My "passenger" side rear wheel kept slipping out of it's hight. I tried tightening the bolt on the outside, but it was already pretty tight. I see there are a lot of parts between the two points, so I was curious where I should concentrate my efforts on?

Thanks!

The HRX system is bit different that the HRR; inspect the adjuster plate and confirm it is fully seating into the notch on the adjuster arm. Since the mower is new, you may wish to have it inspected and evaluated by a servicing dealer. Any factory defects should be covered under warranty. Find a dealer in your area with this link:

Find A Honda Dealer

Jun 21, 2013#12

R

Ragnrok23

robert@honda said:
The HRX system is bit different that the HRR; inspect the adjuster plate and confirm it is fully seating into the notch on the adjuster arm. Since the mower is new, you may wish to have it inspected and evaluated by a servicing dealer. Any factory defects should be covered under warranty. Find a dealer in your area with this link:

Find A Honda Dealer

Thank You! I did try it a few times, and it was always looser than the other 3 wheels

so even though I bought it at Home Depot, I can just take it to any dealer?

Jun 21, 2013#13

robert@honda

Ragnrok23 said:
Thank You! I did try it a few times, and it was always looser than the other 3 wheels

so even though I bought it at Home Depot, I can just take it to any dealer?

Officially, yes. Any Honda dealer is there to help with any Honda service issue.

That said, some dealers will be a little gruff about helping customer that did not buy from their shop. You may be put at the end of the line.

Better dealers will welcome any customers who come into there shop, no matter what.

Most accept the situation that Honda mowers will be bought from Home Depot but brought to them for service / warranty.

Jun 21, 2013#14

R

Ragnrok23

robert@honda said:
Officially, yes. Any Honda dealer is there to help with any Honda service issue.

That said, some dealers will be a little gruff about helping customer that did not buy from their shop. You may be put at the end of the line.

Better dealers will welcome any customers who come into there shop, no matter what.

Most accept the situation that Honda mowers will be bought from Home Depot but brought to them for service / warranty.

Thanks! called local dealer, at first he said they were backed up 3 weeks, then after asking me about the problem said it would probably be a week

They are more of a boat dealership anyway, when I went to look to buy from them, they only had 1 honda in stock, and weren't even placing an order for another month, so i kinda had to do the HD route

Jun 25, 2013#15

B

bowersba

robert@honda said:
Your serial number IS in the affected range of mowers that may have a restart problem if the engine has not been fully warmed up. Per the bulletin, a typical problem can happen if you start a cold engine, then shut it down before it warms up, and try an restart it up again. The fix is to replace the thermo-wax cylinder, and use a proper amount of HondaBond HT to ensure correct heat transfer. Finally, the choke control assembly should be inspected and tested for any binding. New gaskets wrap up the job.

Your serial number shows the mower was sold at retail on 3/3/2012, with full factory warranty in effect until 3/2/2016. From what you've told me, it appears both problems should be covered under Honda's warranty, but double-check with your dealer to be sure and before authorizing any repairs.

Wow, can't believe I actually found these posts regarding the exact same problems I'm having with my HRR2168VKA and that they are recent! First, to robert@honda, based on your signoff note it appears you do this on your own time and with 500+ posts you are a lot of help to people. THANKS!!

I'm going to bring my mower to a dealer for these problems (locking wheels and trouble starting). It is obvious that these must be common problems so I ask, why doesn't Honda recall these mowers or send out a notice? You mention a bulletin but I didn't find this on the hondapowerequipment website.

Just a little more info on my situation... I also bought my mower in March 2012 and I had zero problems with it all last summer. In fact, I remarked to several people how it was much better than the more expensive Troy-Bilt I bought a couple of years earlier and finally dumped on someone else for a big loss. But this year is another story. The wheels just started locking up the last couple of times I mowed. But right from the start this season my mower will not start up when cold unless I jam something in the mechanism to (I guess) close the choke. It can still take 10 or more pulls. After running 30-60 seconds at low idle I remove the wedge and it fires up high revs and runs fine. I figure it is a problem with the auto choke that I was going to live with until after the season but with the wheel lock problem I think I will bring it to the dealer now. I definitely don't plan to take it all apart with all those small parts -- and I shouldn't have to -- and probably void the warranty in the process. Once it has been running and I stop it (OFTEN -- see below) to clear out underneath it I don't have a problem restarting it.

One other point, just a rant on today's mowers in general. Maybe technology has improved some things on mowers but no way the mowers of my youth (70's and 80's) stalled out so easily in long grass as this Honda and the Troy-Bilt. The mower before that was one I picked up well used for $25 and I used it for 10+ years without any major problems and it didn't stall out like these do and it was nothing special and didn't have a big motor. Oh, well! It seems a possible solution would be to put a super slick coating on the undercarriage. Has anyone heard of one? Seems there could be a lot of money in coming up with one if not already out there.

I welcome any feedback and recommendations. I live in Oak Ridge, TN (Knoxville area) if anyone knows a reliable Honda dealer there.

Jun 27, 2013#16

robert@honda

bowersba said:
It is obvious that these must be common problems so I ask, why doesn't Honda recall these mowers or send out a notice?

I live in Oak Ridge, TN (Knoxville area) if anyone knows a reliable Honda dealer there.

I hear your frustration. The good news is if your mower is still under warranty, any factory defects are generally covered.

Here are the facts about recalls vs. notices and warranty stuff:

A Recall Notice, under terms of the warranty and rules established by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, is only issued and distributed to registered customers when a product is determined to have a safety issue or risk. When a Recall Notice is issued, the company has a legal obligation to notify as many customers of effected units as possible, and to repair, replace, or refund for all the units, forever. Pretty serious stuff, but we are talking about safety, where a consumer may be injured or property could be damaged, etc. Not to be taken lightly, and not to be used if there just something that broke on a product.

Now if there is a non-safety problem, such as hard-starting, where Honda recognized it was a factory defect, Honda will issue a Service Bulletin to its dealer network and advise them how to make the repairs and what countermeasure parts / procedure to use to resolve the problem. In such cases, any products with in the effected group of products with the problem that are still under warranty are repaired at no cost to the customer. The key to making this system work, of course, is the consumer has to recognize there is a problem and take it to a dealer for evaluation.

Here are some recommend dealers in the Oak Ridge area:

Farragut Lawn and Tractor
13131 Kingston Pike
Knoxville, TN 37934-1008
(865) 966-6576

Mayo Garden Center
9629 Kingston Pike
Knoxville, TN 37922-2316
(865) 691-1230

Mayo Garden Center
620 E Emory Rd
Powell, TN 37849-3521
(865) 938-1010

Mayo Garden Centers
4718 Kingston Pike
Knoxville, TN 37919-5115
(865) 588-1351

Lafollette Honda
1408 Jacksboro Pike
La Follette, TN 37766-3269
(423) 562-5239

Jun 27, 2013#17

B

bowersba

robert@honda said:
I hear your frustration. The good news is if your mower is still under warranty, any factory defects are generally covered.

Here are the facts about recalls vs. notices and warranty stuff:

A Recall Notice, under terms of the warranty and rules established by the US Consumer Product Safety Commission, is only issued and distributed to registered customers when a product is determined to have a safety issue or risk. When a Recall Notice is issued, the company has a legal obligation to notify as many customers of effected units as possible, and to repair, replace, or refund for all the units, forever. Pretty serious stuff, but we are talking about safety, where a consumer may be injured or property could be damaged, etc. Not to be taken lightly, and not to be used if there just something that broke on a product.

Now if there is a non-safety problem, such as hard-starting, where Honda recognized it was a factory defect, Honda will issue a Service Bulletin to its dealer network and advise them how to make the repairs and what countermeasure parts / procedure to use to resolve the problem. In such cases, any products with in the effected group of products with the problem that are still under warranty are repaired at no cost to the customer. The key to making this system work, of course, is the consumer has to recognize there is a problem and take it to a dealer for evaluation.

Robert, thanks for reminding me of the purpose of a recall and for the other information. I'll try to remember to post after getting service.

Jul 29, 2013#18

R

RicB

Here is an update on the mower. Since the first dealer was unable to solve the lock-up problem, on June 27, I took the mower to the only other authorized Honda service shop in this area. They had it for a little over a week, then after running it through a series of diagnostic steps determined that it was a faulty transmission. The transmission was backordered, but finally came in and I picked the mower up this last Friday (July 26). It had been raining that day, so I rolled the mower into my storage room. The following afternoon had dried enough to take it out for a trial run but when I went to roll it backwards, the lock-up was still occurring after doing nothing more than sitting overnight. I specifically asked the shop if they had lubed all areas of the axle and wheel that required lube and they stated that they had. I have noticed when it locks up, that I can lift the back of the mower and turn the wheels with my foot, but when I set it back down there is not enough traction with the ground, pulling backwards, to get it to turn. It seems that something is binding although sporadically. I was in Home Depot not long ago, in the garden section and noticed some power equipment that had been returned. One of the returns was an HRR 216. Playing around with it, it seemed to take much less effort to roll backwards than mine ever has, for whatever that is worth.
A couple of You Tube vids showing the situation.
vid 1
vid 2

Jul 31, 2013#19

C

ClydeO

I bought an HRR2169VKA today (07/30/13) and had the rear wheels lock up during a test run inside my garage. It has never tasted grass, but will be going back to Home Depot in the morning. Glad I found this thread.

Jul 31, 2013#20

N

NJsnapper

ClydeO said:
I bought an HRR2169VKA today (07/30/13) and had the rear wheels lock up during a test run inside my garage. It has never tasted grass, but will be going back to Home Depot in the morning. Glad I found this thread.

My HRR2167VKA is fine. No issues with locking up at all. Wonder if its only the version 8 & 9 ones?

Jul 31, 2013#21

robert@honda

RicB said:
Here is an update on the mower. Since the first dealer was unable to solve the lock-up problem, on June 27, I took the mower to the only other authorized Honda service shop in this area. They had it for a little over a week, then after running it through a series of diagnostic steps determined that it was a faulty transmission. The transmission was backordered, but finally came in and I picked the mower up this last Friday (July 26). It had been raining that day, so I rolled the mower into my storage room. The following afternoon had dried enough to take it out for a trial run but when I went to roll it backwards, the lock-up was still occurring after doing nothing more than sitting overnight. I specifically asked the shop if they had lubed all areas of the axle and wheel that required lube and they stated that they had. I have noticed when it locks up, that I can lift the back of the mower and turn the wheels with my foot, but when I set it back down there is not enough traction with the ground, pulling backwards, to get it to turn. It seems that something is binding although sporadically. I was in Home Depot not long ago, in the garden section and noticed some power equipment that had been returned. One of the returns was an HRR 216. Playing around with it, it seemed to take much less effort to roll backwards than mine ever has, for whatever that is worth.
A couple of You Tube vids showing the situation.
vid 1
vid 2

RicB, any follow-up?

I watched the videos, and I have to ask, and please forgive me if this sounds crazy, but I can't help but notice from the videos, is is possible your hand(s) was in contact or putting ANY pressure on the SmartDrive control when you tried to pull the mower backwards? The mower's SmartDrive transmission will only be in "NEUTRAL" and allow for backwards movement if there is NO pressure at all on the SmartDrive control. You can only get the mower to roll backwards when the transmission is in NEUTRAL. This is true with the engine on or off. When pulling backwards, only grasp the handlebar(s) (green highlight) area and keep both hands completely off the SmartDrive control (pink highlight). Again, sorry if this sounds crazy, but watching the rear wheels, it sure looks like in the video you might have been applying some pressure to the SmartDrive control....

Jul 31, 2013#22

N

NJsnapper

robert@honda said:
RicB, any follow-up?

I watched the videos, and I have to ask, and please forgive me if this sounds crazy, but I can't help but notice from the videos, is is possible your hand(s) was in contact or putting ANY pressure on the SmartDrive control when you tried to pull the mower backwards? The mower's SmartDrive transmission will only be in "NEUTRAL" and allow for backwards movement if there is NO pressure at all on the SmartDrive control. You can only get the mower to roll backwards when the transmission is in NEUTRAL. This is true with the engine on or off. When pulling backwards, only grasp the handlebar(s) (green highlight) area and keep both hands completely off the SmartDrive control (pink highlight). Again, sorry if this sounds crazy, but watching the rear wheels, it sure looks like in the video you might have been applying some pressure to the SmartDrive control....

hmmm. Bet you are onto something Robert

Jul 31, 2013#23

R

RicB

No, that doesn't sound crazy at all. In fact, it was the first thing that occurred to me when this problem began. I have made a very conscious effort to be certain that I am not touching the control when pulling backward. I can literally grab anywhere on the handlebar and it can lock/bind up. To update, yesterday afternoon I took the mower back to the shop. The service manager played around with it a little and it locked up on him as well. He said that he would contact Honda to let you all know that it is back in their shop.

robert@honda said:
RicB, any follow-up?

I watched the videos, and I have to ask, and please forgive me if this sounds crazy, but I can't help but notice from the videos, is is possible your hand(s) was in contact or putting ANY pressure on the SmartDrive control when you tried to pull the mower backwards? The mower's SmartDrive transmission will only be in "NEUTRAL" and allow for backwards movement if there is NO pressure at all on the SmartDrive control. You can only get the mower to roll backwards when the transmission is in NEUTRAL. This is true with the engine on or off. When pulling backwards, only grasp the handlebar(s) (green highlight) area and keep both hands completely off the SmartDrive control (pink highlight). Again, sorry if this sounds crazy, but watching the rear wheels, it sure looks like in the video you might have been applying some pressure to the SmartDrive control....

Jul 31, 2013#24

N

NJsnapper

RicB said:
No, that doesn't sound crazy at all. In fact, it was the first thing that occurred to me when this problem began. I have made a very conscious effort to be certain that I am not touching the control when pulling backward. I can literally grab anywhere on the handlebar and it can lock/bind up. To update, yesterday afternoon I took the mower back to the shop. The service manager played around with it a little and it locked up on him as well. He said that he would contact Honda to let you all know.

Just for giggles i went out to mine and ever so slightly pushed the control and the pulled it backward. Did the exact same thing yours did in the vid. No engine was running. Could the controls be out of adjustment where its *always* slightly depressed even though you are not touching it?

Aug 1, 2013#25

R

RicB

I've wondered if something like that might be the problem or perhaps the control is sticking just enough to cause this but not enough to be readily noticeable. I think the 1st shop that worked on this may have taken the control apart, as I could see some indication of this on the screw heads holding it together. I have no idea what they did once it was apart though. Or maybe the cable is just sticking and needs some lube, if it's possible to do that. NJsnapper, your post has me thinking back to when this first started and I was looking up underneath the deck and figuring out how Honda's belt/pulley system all worked. I could see how when the control paddles are depressed, the tranny would rotate backwards and apply tension to the belt and the more I pressed the control, the further it would rotate, applying more tension, increasing the speed of the mower and so on. While looking this over with the mower on it's side and no one touching the control, I could grab the transmission and rotate it forward ever so slightly from it's resting position, and I'm talking maybe 1/8" of rotation. Is it possible that that slight amount of movement by not releasing could be putting enough tension on the belt to cause this? I've had the mower on it's side at other times since then and it would be in the fully forward position. If it is only hanging sporadically, maybe that would explain why the lock-up will occur one second and be gone the next. This is a minor detail to be sure and I had dismissed it as trivial, but your post has me re-thinking that.

NJsnapper said:
Just for giggles i went out to mine and ever so slightly pushed the control and the pulled it backward. De the exact same thing yours did in the vid. No engine was running. Could the controls be out of adjustment where its *always* slightly depressed even though you are not touching it?

Aug 5, 2013#26

R

RicB

ClydeO said:
I bought an HRR2169VKA today (07/30/13) and had the rear wheels lock up during a test run inside my garage. It has never tasted grass, but will be going back to Home Depot in the morning. Glad I found this thread.

That's a smart move. Hope that you got your money refunded. This Honda mower has been a real nightmare and I wish that I had never bought the thing. I spent the extra money on the Honda specifically because I was looking for a reliable mower. As it stands, I've had to waste a considerable amount of time on this. I was back in Home Depot today playing around with the HRR2169VKA that had been returned. It rolled backwards so much easier than mine ever has, even when new. I could jerk on the handlebars of this one, then let go and it would continue to roll for another 6-12 inches with no input from me. The mower I have has always required quite a bit of effort to pull backwards. so much in fact that the service people in both shops have commented on it and an older gentleman in one shop even said that he wouldn't want a mower that was that difficult to roll backwards. So it seems that my Honda has never really worked properly, even new out of the box.

Aug 14, 2013#27

B

bigjck

I recently bought a Honda Harmony II Hrt216 used. I had to replace the drive cable, since it was broken. I have noticed the same problem with the mower rolling backwards. Having worked on Hondas before, I know that the cogs on the back wheel are set to engage to make the mower drive forward and are also set to allow the wheels to turn backwards. The only thing that could be preventing going backwards is that the transmission is still engaged to go forward, as you try to pull it backwards. Even though you might think you are releasing the self-propelled bar enough, the forward transmission is still engaged. I think you mentioned that they adjusted this, but it may need a bit more. I adjusted mine several times to get it better. With the Honda I have, the belt is not tightened by an extra pulley tightening the drive belt, as you might find on the Craftsman or John Deer. The self-propel cable just moves until a switch is engaged which engages the transmission. I am thinking that the little switch needs lubricating. You do have to remove the cover underneath the mower to access this, so I haven't done it yet. To get the transmission to disengage, I have to completely release the self propel bar. I will let you know if lubricating that switch helps any.

Aug 19, 2013#28

R

RicB

I got the mower back from the shop a few days ago. After speaking with Honda, they adjusted the cable again. They also lubed it. At first it seemed that the problem was corrected, but yesterday it started binding up again. A couple of times while running, the smartdrive control stuck in the down position and the mower would try and take off on me. Even before the lock-ups started, oftentimes when taking the mower out to use, the smartdrive paddle would take some effort to depress the first time, as if it were stuck in the upright position. After that it would function normally.

short video from yesterday

bigjck said:
I recently bought a Honda Harmony II Hrt216 used. I had to replace the drive cable, since it was broken. I have noticed the same problem with the mower rolling backwards. Having worked on Hondas before, I know that the cogs on the back wheel are set to engage to make the mower drive forward and are also set to allow the wheels to turn backwards. The only thing that could be preventing going backwards is that the transmission is still engaged to go forward, as you try to pull it backwards. Even though you might think you are releasing the self-propelled bar enough, the forward transmission is still engaged. I think you mentioned that they adjusted this, but it may need a bit more. I adjusted mine several times to get it better. With the Honda I have, the belt is not tightened by an extra pulley tightening the drive belt, as you might find on the Craftsman or John Deer. The self-propel cable just moves until a switch is engaged which engages the transmission. I am thinking that the little switch needs lubricating. You do have to remove the cover underneath the mower to access this, so I haven't done it yet. To get the transmission to disengage, I have to completely release the self propel bar. I will let you know if lubricating that switch helps any.

Aug 19, 2013#29

robert@honda

RicB said:
I got the mower back from the shop a few days ago. After speaking with Honda, they adjusted the cable again. They also lubed it. At first it seemed that the problem was corrected, but yesterday it started binding up again.

Ric, at this point, I'd urge you to contact Honda Customer Relations and see what they can do to help get things set right for you and this mower. There's no excuse why after all this effort it is still having problems. Please collect all your notes and paper work, and give 'em a call to explain what has been going on and what you'd like to have done. 770-497-6400, M-F, 9-5. Have the frame Serial Number off the back of the mower Deck "XXXX-1234567" and the name of the dealer when you call. Honda knows you paid a premium price and expect a premium product for your money; please give the pros and Honda CR a chance to help out.

Aug 19, 2013#30

R

RicB

I will do that Robert. I have never been given any sort of documentation from either shop for the work done. I will need to see if they are willing to make me copies of the work they've performed.

robert@honda said:
Ric, at this point, I'd urge you to contact Honda Customer Relations and see what they can do to help get things set right for you and this mower. There's no excuse why after all this effort it is still having problems. Please collect all your notes and paper work, and give 'em a call to explain what has been going on and what you'd like to have done. 770-497-6400, M-F, 9-5. Have the frame Serial Number off the back of the mower Deck "XXXX-1234567" and the name of the dealer when you call. Honda knows you paid a premium price and expect a premium product for your money; please give the pros and Honda CR a chance to help out.

Aug 19, 2013#31

robert@honda

RicB said:
I will do that Robert. I have never been given any sort of documentation from either shop for the work done. I will need to see if they are willing to make me copies of the work they've performed.

Most dealers keep up with repair history on a computer, so should be able to pull it up. Since a Honda Service Rep has been involved, there will be a paper trail. With any luck, your patience will be rewarded. I genuniely believe both the dealer and the Honda rep want the same thing, and that's to get this mower working properly and make you a happy customer. Best of luck.

Aug 19, 2013#32

exotion

RicB said:
I got the mower back from the shop a few days ago. After speaking with Honda, they adjusted the cable again. They also lubed it. At first it seemed that the problem was corrected, but yesterday it started binding up again. A couple of times while running, the smartdrive control stuck in the down position and the mower would try and take off on me. Even before the lock-ups started, oftentimes when taking the mower out to use, the smartdrive paddle would take some effort to depress the first time, as if it were stuck in the upright position. After that it would function normally.

short video from yesterday

Haven't watched the video yet but my smart. Drive paddle would stick found out the little rubber hand grips worked there way into the paddle and made it hard to depress it check it out

Aug 19, 2013#33

N

NJsnapper

Ric- I still think its smart drive related. Mine did the *exact* same as yours with an ever so slight push on my smart drive. It can't be coincidence. Ill bet if you disconnect the smart drive, the mower will roll backwards freely

Aug 19, 2013#34

R

RicB

Yep, checked that out already and have plenty of clearance between the grip and paddle. I think that NJsnapper in the post above has the right idea.

exotion said:
Haven't watched the video yet but my smart. Drive paddle would stick found out the little rubber hand grips worked there way into the paddle and made it hard to depress it check it out

Aug 19, 2013#35

R

RicB

NJsnapper, I think that you are right about that. The smartdrive paddle has had a "sticky" feeling to it since before these lock-ups ever even occurred. I played with it for a few minutes this evening. Started out by grabbing the bar below the paddle and it rolled backward normally a couple of feet. I then stopped and depressed the paddle a few times while it sat still. I let go of the paddle "completely" and tried to roll backward again, but the wheels were locked this time. I operated the paddle a few more times and it unlocked. Either the cable is catching or something inside of the smartdrive control is.

NJsnapper said:
Ric- I still think its smart drive related. Mine did the *exact* same as yours with an ever so slight push on my smart drive. It can't be coincidence. Ill bet if you disconnect the smart drive, the mower will roll backwards freely

Aug 30, 2013#36

T

tee3

robert@honda said:
Most dealers keep up with repair history on a computer, so should be able to pull it up. Since a Honda Service Rep has been involved, there will be a paper trail. With any luck, your patience will be rewarded. I genuniely believe both the dealer and the Honda rep want the same thing, and that's to get this mower working properly and make you a happy customer. Best of luck.

I don't know about that because I got one of them in the shed that has about 5 or 6 hours of use on it. We took it to the Honda dealer once. Five or six weeks later when it was ready we paid him $51 plus to put the belt back on. The second time I used it and again the belt came off. My little wife said go buy her another electric mower like the one she had been using for seven years with no problems. I bought a shop manual and if I cared to spend a couple of hours or more replacing the belt about every time I used the mower then the problem would be solved. That might be his problem because I doubt if some of the Honda dealers can put a belt on this mower.

Aug 30, 2013#37

exotion

tee3 said:
I don't know about that because I got one of them in the shed that has about 5 or 6 hours of use on it. We took it to the Honda dealer once. Five or six weeks later when it was ready we paid him $51 plus to put the belt back on. The second time I used it and again the belt came off. My little wife said go buy her another electric mower like the one she had been using for seven years with no problems. I bought a shop manual and if I cared to spend a couple of hours or more replacing the belt about every time I used the mower then the problem would be solved. That might be his problem because I doubt if some of the Honda dealers can put a belt on this mower.

With practice it can take 5 mins to replace the best but that's besides the point

May 9, 2016#38

B

BillE507

Thank you to all who have replied to this thread!

Long story-short: HRR2169VLA, purchased last July (2015) and used it for about 30 mows. It had always been a real bear to pull backwards. I tried some at various locations (ie-HD, Honda dealers, etc), all seemed to need more than a gentle tug to move backwards. I just figured that this was just the nature of the beast.

Fast forward to this spring. Rear wheel locked up, but after mowing a bit, they did ‘loosen up’ a bit. BUT, have developed a stuck carb float, I went to see my local Honda repair shop. I did mentioned how difficult it was to pull backwards. Man said I’ll check it out while I have it.

Get the mower back, yes the carb was repaired and yes, it was still difficult to pull. That and they would lock up after setting until the next mow job.

Found this forum and this thread! Pulled the drive shafts…lo and behold the axles were as dry as a desert well. Cleaned everything, and ‘polished’ (there was a tiny bit of galling) the axles areas where they enter into the bearings. Lubed all, put it back together.

It now takes less than the ‘factory spec’ of 13# (actually 12# by my scale).

Needles to say, Bill is a HAPPY CAMPER!

Thanx again for everyone’s help!

Bill

Nov 10, 2016#39

C

civic

I also want to thank this thread. I have had the same problem with rear wheels locking up for several years. I removed the bushing cleaned and greased the bushing and shaft. I put a fish scale and it takes 10 lbs. max to pull back. This lawn mower has never been this easy to pull back.

Nov 13, 2016#40

B

BillE507

I went a bit further into the “lubrication” situation.

After a time, the rear wheels AGAIN started to lock-up. Did the remove and re-lube procedure and then looked a bit closer at the situation/problem.

I drilled/tap (8-32) hole in the inboard edge of the “adjuster arm”. I drilled as close as possible to the 'shoulder” by the bearing. Then using a chain saw bar grease gun I can easily shove some more grease into the area. Too many 'pumps' will kick the grease seal out of position.

The ideal spot to do this would have been to use a Zerk fitting that would empty right into the bearing area. But, there just isn't that much meat to drill and tap, even using the smallest of Zerk (I could find).

One thing that caused me some concern is that Honda says to use #2 Lithium based product. I think a more heavier 'grease' might be more 'proper' for this area.

Whether or not this is a cure-all, only time will tell. But after a couple of months and a couple of 'pumps'...all is well.

Hopefully this makes sense (I'm not the best when comes to 'tech writting).

Bill

Nov 13, 2016#41

C

civic

Bill,

I lubed my shaft with marine grease that is very sticky. The only thing about grease is that it attracts dirt. I am going to give this a shot, if it does not work I will try a dry lube like graphite. I will keep this thread posted if I need to do this.

Nov 13, 2016#42

B

BillE507

civic said:
Bill,

I lubed my shaft with marine grease that is very sticky. The only thing about grease is that it attracts dirt. I am going to give this a shot, if it does not work I will try a dry lube like graphite. I will keep this thread posted if I need to do this.

I'm doing similar...I'm trying a 'red sticky' grease. But only for the axle bearings. As to using the grease that comes in the chain saw lube gun, I replaced that with the 'red sticky' stuff. If nothing else, this stuff is reallllly waterproof! Been able to hose off the underside occasionally without fear of the bearing going 'dry'.

I feel that the heavier grease adds more of a cushion (if that's even a term) between the bronze bearing and steel shaft.

Bill

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HRR2168VKA rear wheels locking up - dealer can't seem to fix

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