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For those interested in Alternative Fuels
#1
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
Hi group,
If you want to have a looksee at what's happening in Commercial Mower news look here:
Offering Propane Equipment and Conversions - Green Industry Pros
And here:
More mowers turning to propane fuel | CharlotteObserver.com
If you have any questions give me a holler...
If you want to have a looksee at what's happening in Commercial Mower news look here:
Offering Propane Equipment and Conversions - Green Industry Pros
And here:
More mowers turning to propane fuel | CharlotteObserver.com
If you have any questions give me a holler...
#2
exotion
I have been thinking about having someone do a propane conversion to one of my small walk behinds.... A couple questions how do I transport extra fuel? In a regular propane tank like for a grill? And how much would a conversion cost for an older 5 HP Suzuki 4 cycle? Also would I lose power or torque where would I get a conversion kit. I'm not completely sold but people want me to consider it
Also is there a way to convert small 2 cycle equipment to propane with the same questions as above
exotion
Hi group,
If you want to have a looksee at what's happening in Commercial Mower news look here:
Offering Propane Equipment and Conversions - Green Industry Pros
And here:
More mowers turning to propane fuel | CharlotteObserver.com
If you have any questions give me a holler...
I have been thinking about having someone do a propane conversion to one of my small walk behinds.... A couple questions how do I transport extra fuel? In a regular propane tank like for a grill? And how much would a conversion cost for an older 5 HP Suzuki 4 cycle? Also would I lose power or torque where would I get a conversion kit. I'm not completely sold but people want me to consider it
Also is there a way to convert small 2 cycle equipment to propane with the same questions as above
#3
Terry CleanFuel
Howdy exotion!
Nothing in the works for 2 strokes. Honestly, I don't think that's going to happen.
Typically a push mower will use 5lb tanks (one gallon). You can use larger tanks as long as the mower stays manageable.
A typical kit runs around 450-500 with 5lb cylinder and bracket.
There are those who will argue the point about power but I haven't had any complaints. My customers run a combined 800+ units with no complaints from the cutters.
I can hook you up with a supplier if you want to give me a shout. terry@cleanfuellpg.com
Terry CleanFuel
I have been thinking about having someone do a propane conversion to one of my small walk behinds.... A couple questions how do I transport extra fuel? In a regular propane tank like for a grill? And how much would a conversion cost for an older 5 HP Suzuki 4 cycle? Also would I lose power or torque where would I get a conversion kit. I'm not completely sold but people want me to consider it
Also is there a way to convert small 2 cycle equipment to propane with the same questions as above
Howdy exotion!
Nothing in the works for 2 strokes. Honestly, I don't think that's going to happen.
Typically a push mower will use 5lb tanks (one gallon). You can use larger tanks as long as the mower stays manageable.
A typical kit runs around 450-500 with 5lb cylinder and bracket.
There are those who will argue the point about power but I haven't had any complaints. My customers run a combined 800+ units with no complaints from the cutters.
I can hook you up with a supplier if you want to give me a shout. terry@cleanfuellpg.com
#4
reynoldston
reynoldston
I see more disadvantages then advantages. Harder to refuel, exhaust fumes stink, lose power, not any cheaper to operate, large heavy fuel tank, disadvantages. Engine burns cleaner is the only advantage I can see. Got to be a reason you are thinking of doing so other then that? Maybe it looks neat?
#5
exotion
That seems a touch pricey for a propane kit? I expected a couple hundred bucks. Yes there are disadvantages but my wifes family is full of hippies who drive priuses lol i am not sure if I want to drop 500 ish bucks on an experiment :/ especially on the mower I would put it on is from the mid eighties lol
exotion
Howdy exotion!
Nothing in the works for 2 strokes. Honestly, I don't think that's going to happen.
Typically a push mower will use 5lb tanks (one gallon). You can use larger tanks as long as the mower stays manageable.
A typical kit runs around 450-500 with 5lb cylinder and bracket.
There are those who will argue the point about power but I haven't had any complaints. My customers run a combined 800+ units with no complaints from the cutters.
I can hook you up with a supplier if you want to give me a shout. terry@cleanfuellpg.com
That seems a touch pricey for a propane kit? I expected a couple hundred bucks. Yes there are disadvantages but my wifes family is full of hippies who drive priuses lol i am not sure if I want to drop 500 ish bucks on an experiment :/ especially on the mower I would put it on is from the mid eighties lol
#6
Terry CleanFuel
1. Propane burns cleaner.
2. Propane is a domestic fuel.
3. Propane is up to 60% less expensive than gasoline.
5. Propane has 21% MORE power per pound than gasoline.
6. Propane is a minimum 107 octane.
7. Oil changes can be extended up to 3 times.
8. Propane contains no ethanol.
9. Propane doesn't go "bad" on the shelf.
10. Propane can't be stolen.
11. Legislation (see urls above) is coming to limit the use of gasoline for commercial mowing.
12. Many customers appreciate the efforts to reduce your carbon footprint.
13. Many municipal customers will accept the bid for a "Clean/Green" supplier over polluters.
14. Almost all HOAs will do business with a "Clean/Green" supplier because they are less polluting and quieter.
15. Fewer complaints from employees about emissions.
16. Much easier starting with propane.
17. No annual carb rebuilds with propane.
18. The conversion equipment can be transferred to a new unit.
19. Mowers last up to three times longer with propane.
20. Used units are worth more at resale because the engine has substantially less wear.
I'll stop at Twenty. There are many more not the least of which is "just wanting to do the right thing."
I'm curious, how many mowers did you run on propane? I'd really like to hear of your experience with them.
Regards!
Terry CleanFuel
I see more disadvantages then advantages. Harder to refuel, exhaust fumes stink, lose power, not any cheaper to operate, large heavy fuel tank, disadvantages. Engine burns cleaner is the only advantage I can see. Got to be a reason you are thinking of doing so other then that? Maybe it looks neat?
1. Propane burns cleaner.
2. Propane is a domestic fuel.
3. Propane is up to 60% less expensive than gasoline.
5. Propane has 21% MORE power per pound than gasoline.
6. Propane is a minimum 107 octane.
7. Oil changes can be extended up to 3 times.
8. Propane contains no ethanol.
9. Propane doesn't go "bad" on the shelf.
10. Propane can't be stolen.
11. Legislation (see urls above) is coming to limit the use of gasoline for commercial mowing.
12. Many customers appreciate the efforts to reduce your carbon footprint.
13. Many municipal customers will accept the bid for a "Clean/Green" supplier over polluters.
14. Almost all HOAs will do business with a "Clean/Green" supplier because they are less polluting and quieter.
15. Fewer complaints from employees about emissions.
16. Much easier starting with propane.
17. No annual carb rebuilds with propane.
18. The conversion equipment can be transferred to a new unit.
19. Mowers last up to three times longer with propane.
20. Used units are worth more at resale because the engine has substantially less wear.
I'll stop at Twenty. There are many more not the least of which is "just wanting to do the right thing."
I'm curious, how many mowers did you run on propane? I'd really like to hear of your experience with them.
Regards!
#7
Terry CleanFuel
It's suggested you run a compression/leakdown check first. Is it OHV?
The majority of the cost is the regulator/lockoff assembly at almost $300. The majority of pushmowers are done by Commercial cutters who run everything on propane. Vehicles, Z's, walk behinds, standers, trimmers, blowers, pumps, gensets, loaders, and even a couple of well drillers run on propane. There are many more applications...
Terry CleanFuel
That seems a touch pricey for a propane kit? I expected a couple hundred bucks. Yes there are disadvantages but my wifes family is full of hippies who drive priuses lol i am not sure if I want to drop 500 ish bucks on an experiment :/ especially on the mower I would put it on is from the mid eighties lol
It's suggested you run a compression/leakdown check first. Is it OHV?
The majority of the cost is the regulator/lockoff assembly at almost $300. The majority of pushmowers are done by Commercial cutters who run everything on propane. Vehicles, Z's, walk behinds, standers, trimmers, blowers, pumps, gensets, loaders, and even a couple of well drillers run on propane. There are many more applications...
#8
Terry CleanFuel
Mostly carbon dioxide and water. That's why its used on forklifts. It is 80% less toxic than gasoline exhaust which can, I guess smell GOOD to some folks. Typically the CO is about 8ppm. This is less than the 20ppm allowed as "acceptable" for CO in a residence. 20ppm is the upper limit though.
Can you smell the difference? I certainly can. But I've been driving with propane for almost thirty years.
Terry CleanFuel
exhaust fumes stink,
Mostly carbon dioxide and water. That's why its used on forklifts. It is 80% less toxic than gasoline exhaust which can, I guess smell GOOD to some folks. Typically the CO is about 8ppm. This is less than the 20ppm allowed as "acceptable" for CO in a residence. 20ppm is the upper limit though.
Can you smell the difference? I certainly can. But I've been driving with propane for almost thirty years.
#9
reynoldston
reynoldston
The only equipment I run on propane is my cooking stove, outside gas grill, my camp furnace. Other then that I know nothing about using it in a mower. That is what I was asking just what would be the advantages. I have been around gasoline engines all my life other then years ago I do recall working on some engines ran on propane. Yes I do remember they were very clean running. Seeing you do run and use them you know a lot more then I do. In my mine I see a big old propane tank of a small push mower and a big pain refilling the tank like my gas grill. I can go to any gas station and fill my gas can very easy and any day. Yes they do come to my house and fill my cook stove and furnace tank. Not such a good thing for my gas grill which I have to exchange tanks at the local hardware store when they are open. Just maybe do you have your own filling station or do you just have spare tanks?
#10
Carscw
I don't remember who sold them but you could get a propane trimmer. Did not go over real good. It used small bottles like you use on a camping grill. One bottle would last about 20 mins.
IMO it is not worth it to convert just one mower. Now if you have 5 or more mowers and they are new then maybe it would be worth it.
Look at it this way you buy a $5000 mower then $400 to convert to propane. How much money do you think you will save keeping the mower two years. Let's say 1000 hours.
Now if you run your mower 8 to 10 hours a day you have to Change the tank or find a place to fill it 3 times each day.
Carscw
I have been thinking about having someone do a propane conversion to one of my small walk behinds.... A couple questions how do I transport extra fuel? In a regular propane tank like for a grill? And how much would a conversion cost for an older 5 HP Suzuki 4 cycle? Also would I lose power or torque where would I get a conversion kit. I'm not completely sold but people want me to consider it Also is there a way to convert small 2 cycle equipment to propane with the same questions as above
I don't remember who sold them but you could get a propane trimmer. Did not go over real good. It used small bottles like you use on a camping grill. One bottle would last about 20 mins.
IMO it is not worth it to convert just one mower. Now if you have 5 or more mowers and they are new then maybe it would be worth it.
Look at it this way you buy a $5000 mower then $400 to convert to propane. How much money do you think you will save keeping the mower two years. Let's say 1000 hours.
Now if you run your mower 8 to 10 hours a day you have to Change the tank or find a place to fill it 3 times each day.
#11
Terry CleanFuel
The US could be the OPEC of propane. We are a net exporter but we use little of it here. Not like Europe and Australia where thirty percent of the vehicles run on propane.
For the small push-mower tanks you can refill them using a forklift tank and adaptor. For larger mower tanks the propane companies will furnish tanks and cabinet usually for free.
Terry CleanFuel
The only equipment I run on propane is my cooking stove, outside gas grill, my camp furnace. Other then that I know nothing about using it in a mower. That is what I was asking just what would be the advantages. I have been around gasoline engines all my life other then years ago I do recall working on some engines ran on propane. Yes I do remember they were very clean running. Seeing you do run and use them you know a lot more then I do. In my mine I see a big old propane tank of a small push mower and a big pain refilling the tank like my gas grill. I can go to any gas station and fill my gas can very easy and any day. Yes they do come to my house and fill my cook stove and furnace tank. Not such a good thing for my gas grill which I have to exchange tanks at the local hardware store when they are open. Just maybe do you have your own filling station or do you just have spare tanks?
The US could be the OPEC of propane. We are a net exporter but we use little of it here. Not like Europe and Australia where thirty percent of the vehicles run on propane.
For the small push-mower tanks you can refill them using a forklift tank and adaptor. For larger mower tanks the propane companies will furnish tanks and cabinet usually for free.
#12
Terry CleanFuel
The manufacturer was Lehr and, you're correct, they did not work well. The design was purchased by another company and you can buy propane trimmers under several different names. Craftsman for one.
One mower at 1000 hours per year would save over $2000 in fuel and maintenance savings. That's gasoline at 3.85 and propane at 1.65. These prices are REAL prices from last summer here in Boise.
Terry CleanFuel
I don't remember who sold them but you could get a propane trimmer. Did not go over real good. It used small bottles like you use on a camping grill. One bottle would last about 20 mins.
IMO it is not worth it to convert just one mower. Now if you have 5 or more mowers and they are new then maybe it would be worth it.
Look at it this way you buy a $5000 mower then $400 to convert to propane. How much money do you think you will save keeping the mower two years. Let's say 1000 hours.
Now if you run your mower 8 to 10 hours a day you have to Change the tank or find a place to fill it 3 times each day.
The manufacturer was Lehr and, you're correct, they did not work well. The design was purchased by another company and you can buy propane trimmers under several different names. Craftsman for one.
One mower at 1000 hours per year would save over $2000 in fuel and maintenance savings. That's gasoline at 3.85 and propane at 1.65. These prices are REAL prices from last summer here in Boise.
#13
Carscw
Ok I get that propane is cheaper.
But what about the time it takes to change a tank?
Or carry extra tanks taking up space on your truck or trailer?
I am just trying to understand.
Gas here is $3.05
The price of propane is still going up as there is a shortage right now.
Something to do with working on a pipeline at the time of year when demand is high
Carscw
The manufacturer was Lehr and, you're correct, they did not work well. The design was purchased by another company and you can buy propane trimmers under several different names. Craftsman for one. One mower at 1000 hours per year would save over $2000 in fuel and maintenance savings. That's gasoline at 3.85 and propane at 1.65. These prices are REAL prices from last summer here in Boise.
Ok I get that propane is cheaper.
But what about the time it takes to change a tank?
Or carry extra tanks taking up space on your truck or trailer?
I am just trying to understand.
Gas here is $3.05
The price of propane is still going up as there is a shortage right now.
Something to do with working on a pipeline at the time of year when demand is high
#14
reynoldston
reynoldston
Propane tanks aren't free in my neighbor hood. I had to buy my own tank for my grill and the propane company charges me rent for my cooking and furnace tanks. Maybe for a company that will use a lot of gas the tanks are free??? Now for the gas grill they exchange tanks with me but I had to buy the first one.
#15
Terry CleanFuel
I can tell you from experience that propane "shortages" happen every year. Luckily cutters only need it during the summer when prices are at their lowest. I've been able to swing some "pre-buy" contracts for the larger cutters at much less than $1.65.
Believe it or not it's faster to change tanks than to have the crew visit a gas station. Propane cylinders can be stored on their side. they don't have to be upright like gas cans. For security you can run a cable lock through the headring.
A cutter from Missouri tells me about his crew stopping at a gas station and several of their wives filled up on the P card at the same time. It's not uncommon.
Terry CleanFuel
Ok I get that propane is cheaper.
But what about the time it takes to change a tank?
Or carry extra tanks taking up space on your truck or trailer?
I am just trying to understand.
Gas here is $3.05
The price of propane is still going up as there is a shortage right now.
Something to do with working on a pipeline at the time of year when demand is high
I can tell you from experience that propane "shortages" happen every year. Luckily cutters only need it during the summer when prices are at their lowest. I've been able to swing some "pre-buy" contracts for the larger cutters at much less than $1.65.
Believe it or not it's faster to change tanks than to have the crew visit a gas station. Propane cylinders can be stored on their side. they don't have to be upright like gas cans. For security you can run a cable lock through the headring.
A cutter from Missouri tells me about his crew stopping at a gas station and several of their wives filled up on the P card at the same time. It's not uncommon.
#16
Terry CleanFuel
LOL! A customer and I were discussing that same thing this morning!
I barbecue quite a bit and use maybe, what, twenty gallons per year? A typical commercial walkbehind cutting eight hours per day five day per week for 42 weeks will use 1680 gallons. Propane companies know this (I do). Trust me here, I helped build the program. They are quite happy to supply either a bulk dispenser or a cylinder rack along with the cylinders.
If you guys want to play with my program feel free to visit here. You can put-in your own numbers:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
Have fun with it!!
By the way, you kinda get ripped-off with the cylinder exchange. You pay a premium for a new 20# cylinder and then when you exchange you could get a 1965 refurb. That and they short you 1/3 gallon each visit. You wind up paying about $4.00 per gallon. Convenience has a price...
Terry CleanFuel
Propane tanks aren't free in my neighbor hood. I had to buy my own tank for my grill and the propane company charges me rent for my cooking and furnace tanks. Maybe for a company that will use a lot of gas the tanks are free??? Now for the gas grill they exchange tanks with me but I had to buy the first one.
LOL! A customer and I were discussing that same thing this morning!
I barbecue quite a bit and use maybe, what, twenty gallons per year? A typical commercial walkbehind cutting eight hours per day five day per week for 42 weeks will use 1680 gallons. Propane companies know this (I do). Trust me here, I helped build the program. They are quite happy to supply either a bulk dispenser or a cylinder rack along with the cylinders.
If you guys want to play with my program feel free to visit here. You can put-in your own numbers:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
Have fun with it!!
By the way, you kinda get ripped-off with the cylinder exchange. You pay a premium for a new 20# cylinder and then when you exchange you could get a 1965 refurb. That and they short you 1/3 gallon each visit. You wind up paying about $4.00 per gallon. Convenience has a price...
#17
Kodie's Lawn Service
Kodie's Lawn Service
For those who may want to convert Propane is about 4.00$ a gallon here in the south it no longer a 1.50$ gallon like it used to be I believe I will use good old gasoline :thumbsup::thumbsup:
#18
exotion
exotion
Ya I've decided I won't do it to much cost involved and lots of inconvenience. Some point down the line I would like to run full propane on truck and equipment
#19
Terry CleanFuel
Kodie this happens every year. I don't know of anybody mowing now do you?
Many year-round landscaping companies push snow in the winter. Some still use the propane on their quads with blades for sidewalks.
Propane is not for everybody. Especially for those who mow during the winter months, like the Southern states. Usually anyway.
By the way, if you can still find this "good old gasoline" I'd buy a bunch of it...:thumbsup:
Terry CleanFuel
For those who may want to convert Propane is about 4.00$ a gallon here in the south it no longer a 1.50$ gallon like it used to be I believe I will use good old gasoline :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Kodie this happens every year. I don't know of anybody mowing now do you?
Many year-round landscaping companies push snow in the winter. Some still use the propane on their quads with blades for sidewalks.
Propane is not for everybody. Especially for those who mow during the winter months, like the Southern states. Usually anyway.
By the way, if you can still find this "good old gasoline" I'd buy a bunch of it...:thumbsup:
#20
Terry CleanFuel
That's fine and you'd be doing the right thing and I thank you for it!
Just be sure you get correct information when that time comes around.
Terry CleanFuel
Ya I've decided I won't do it to much cost involved and lots of inconvenience. Some point down the line I would like to run full propane on truck and equipment
That's fine and you'd be doing the right thing and I thank you for it!
Just be sure you get correct information when that time comes around.
#21
exotion
Can you pm me your contact info ill write it down and keep it when the day comes
exotion
That's fine and you'd be doing the right thing and I thank you for it!
Just be sure you get correct information when that time comes around.
Can you pm me your contact info ill write it down and keep it when the day comes
#22
Kodie's Lawn Service
Good point but good old gasoline with non of this added crap that messes up carbs an motors there is still 2 gas stations that sell it an it only 4 cent more on the dollar so idk why it even in any of it
Kodie's Lawn Service
Kodie this happens every year. I don't know of anybody mowing now do you?
Many year-round landscaping companies push snow in the winter. Some still use the propane on their quads with blades for sidewalks.
Propane is not for everybody. Especially for those who mow during the winter months, like the Southern states. Usually anyway.
By the way, if you can still find this "good old gasoline" I'd buy a bunch of it...:thumbsup:
Good point but good old gasoline with non of this added crap that messes up carbs an motors there is still 2 gas stations that sell it an it only 4 cent more on the dollar so idk why it even in any of it
#23
reynoldston
Back a lot of years back you could have a propane grill tanks refilled. Even at one time they would fill my small grill tanks when I had gas delivered to my house. No more filling stations and they wouldn't fill my grill tanks off the delivery truck anymore. The cylinder exchange is anyone's choice around here. Now I don't what they will do with a commercial account? If you were to run a truck with propane I wouldn't know where you would even buy fuel to run it in this part of NY?? You can buy gasoline 24/7 and no shortage . Just why do you also figure less maintenance with a propane engine, I have seen commercial diesel engines get over a million miles and they sure aren't clean running.
reynoldston
LOL! A customer and I were discussing that same thing this morning!
I barbecue quite a bit and use maybe, what, twenty gallons per year? A typical commercial walkbehind cutting eight hours per day five day per week for 42 weeks will use 1680 gallons. Propane companies know this (I do). Trust me here, I helped build the program. They are quite happy to supply either a bulk dispenser or a cylinder rack along with the cylinders.
If you guys want to play with my program feel free to visit here. You can put-in your own numbers:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
Have fun with it!!
By the way, you kinda get ripped-off with the cylinder exchange. You pay a premium for a new 20# cylinder and then when you exchange you could get a 1965 refurb. That and they short you 1/3 gallon each visit. You wind up paying about $4.00 per gallon. Convenience has a price...
Back a lot of years back you could have a propane grill tanks refilled. Even at one time they would fill my small grill tanks when I had gas delivered to my house. No more filling stations and they wouldn't fill my grill tanks off the delivery truck anymore. The cylinder exchange is anyone's choice around here. Now I don't what they will do with a commercial account? If you were to run a truck with propane I wouldn't know where you would even buy fuel to run it in this part of NY?? You can buy gasoline 24/7 and no shortage . Just why do you also figure less maintenance with a propane engine, I have seen commercial diesel engines get over a million miles and they sure aren't clean running.
#24
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Neighbor has propane for their kitchen stove, they had a propane fueled generator installed and increased the propane storage tank size. For some reason, the carb on the generator would get crudded up inside and not run. The generator service company came by many times and finally got it to run correctly, but it took a couple years to get it right.
If I get a new generator it will be a diesel and I will run a fuel line to it from my heating oil tank.
My 1978 Peterbilt 378 with a 425 Cat ran 1.2 million miles before an out of frame overhaul had to be done. My drivers used Lucas and Power Service fuel and oil additives along with Shell Rotella 15W-40 engine oil. I bought the additives and engine oil by the pallet load and made sure that there was enough in the storage locker under the sleeper cab so they didn't run out. Most miles in one year was 189,000, two full time drivers plus me sometimes. They preferred to not have me with them, but I wrote the paychecks and paid the bills!!! They were happy when I got tired of seeing mile markers!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
If I get a new generator it will be a diesel and I will run a fuel line to it from my heating oil tank.
My 1978 Peterbilt 378 with a 425 Cat ran 1.2 million miles before an out of frame overhaul had to be done. My drivers used Lucas and Power Service fuel and oil additives along with Shell Rotella 15W-40 engine oil. I bought the additives and engine oil by the pallet load and made sure that there was enough in the storage locker under the sleeper cab so they didn't run out. Most miles in one year was 189,000, two full time drivers plus me sometimes. They preferred to not have me with them, but I wrote the paychecks and paid the bills!!! They were happy when I got tired of seeing mile markers!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#25
reynoldston
Now Cat makes that engine that runs on gas also and you are saying it will get many more miles out of it on propane then diesel with more power. The last I knew they were running 6 of these large gas Cat engines off of methane gas at the land fill generating electric. I know they had blown one of them up but have no idea how many hours they get out of a engine or the power output.
reynoldston
Neighbor has propane for their kitchen stove, they had a propane fueled generator installed and increased the propane storage tank size. For some reason, the carb on the generator would get crudded up inside and not run. The generator service company came by many times and finally got it to run correctly, but it took a couple years to get it right.
If I get a new generator it will be a diesel and I will run a fuel line to it from my heating oil tank.
My 1978 Peterbilt 378 with a 425 Cat ran 1.2 million miles before an out of frame overhaul had to be done. My drivers used Lucas and Power Service fuel and oil additives along with Shell Rotella 15W-40 engine oil. I bought the additives and engine oil by the pallet load and made sure that there was enough in the storage locker under the sleeper cab so they didn't run out. Most miles in one year was 189,000, two full time drivers plus me sometimes. They preferred to not have me with them, but I wrote the paychecks and paid the bills!!! They were happy when I got tired of seeing mile markers!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Now Cat makes that engine that runs on gas also and you are saying it will get many more miles out of it on propane then diesel with more power. The last I knew they were running 6 of these large gas Cat engines off of methane gas at the land fill generating electric. I know they had blown one of them up but have no idea how many hours they get out of a engine or the power output.
#26
Terry CleanFuel
Actually there are plenty of suppliers that would set you up for a commercial account.
As far as less maintenance you can extend oil changes and there is no longer the problem that comes with ethanol.
I left it up to my drivers whether to fill the smaller tanks or not. Honestly it isn't much of a problem for them to do this during the summer but having to take the time to find the hose-end adaptor and a slotted screwdriver in the winter when I'm paying time-and-a-half overtime isn't tolerated. Depending on how big a customer you are of course.:laughing:
Terry CleanFuel
Back a lot of years back you could have a propane grill tanks refilled. Even at one time they would fill my small grill tanks when I had gas delivered to my house. No more filling stations and they wouldn't fill my grill tanks off the delivery truck anymore. The cylinder exchange is anyone's choice around here. Now I don't what they will do with a commercial account? If you were to run a truck with propane I wouldn't know where you would even buy fuel to run it in this part of NY?? You can buy gasoline 24/7 and no shortage . Just why do you also figure less maintenance with a propane engine, I have seen commercial diesel engines get over a million miles and they sure aren't clean running.
Actually there are plenty of suppliers that would set you up for a commercial account.
As far as less maintenance you can extend oil changes and there is no longer the problem that comes with ethanol.
I left it up to my drivers whether to fill the smaller tanks or not. Honestly it isn't much of a problem for them to do this during the summer but having to take the time to find the hose-end adaptor and a slotted screwdriver in the winter when I'm paying time-and-a-half overtime isn't tolerated. Depending on how big a customer you are of course.:laughing:
#27
Carscw
Carscw
Right now propane here is $1.10 more than gas. So it would cost me about $30 more per day to run propane
#28
Terry CleanFuel
Strange about the gensets. I've installed probably 200-300 "Guardian" brand Propane standby gensets with no problems whatsoever. I've done Kohlers and Briggs too. Honda back then was a bit dicey because of their timing during the start circuit.
I also did 50 75KW Powerplants in Duck Valley, NV and they've been running for years (7) with never a miss. All the powerplants that run the Microwave towers around the ID, MT and WY area are propane too and the only calls are for fuel.
Honestly, I don't know how something would enter the carburetor as propane is a closed system.
Terry CleanFuel
Neighbor has propane for their kitchen stove, they had a propane fueled generator installed and increased the propane storage tank size. For some reason, the carb on the generator would get crudded up inside and not run. The generator service company came by many times and finally got it to run correctly, but it took a couple years to get it right.
If I get a new generator it will be a diesel and I will run a fuel line to it from my heating oil tank.
My 1978 Peterbilt 378 with a 425 Cat ran 1.2 million miles before an out of frame overhaul had to be done. My drivers used Lucas and Power Service fuel and oil additives along with Shell Rotella 15W-40 engine oil. I bought the additives and engine oil by the pallet load and made sure that there was enough in the storage locker under the sleeper cab so they didn't run out. Most miles in one year was 189,000, two full time drivers plus me sometimes. They preferred to not have me with them, but I wrote the paychecks and paid the bills!!! They were happy when I got tired of seeing mile markers!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Strange about the gensets. I've installed probably 200-300 "Guardian" brand Propane standby gensets with no problems whatsoever. I've done Kohlers and Briggs too. Honda back then was a bit dicey because of their timing during the start circuit.
I also did 50 75KW Powerplants in Duck Valley, NV and they've been running for years (7) with never a miss. All the powerplants that run the Microwave towers around the ID, MT and WY area are propane too and the only calls are for fuel.
Honestly, I don't know how something would enter the carburetor as propane is a closed system.
#29
Terry CleanFuel
What do you use it for during the winter?
Terry CleanFuel
Right now propane here is $1.10 more than gas. So it would cost me about $30 more per day to run propane
What do you use it for during the winter?
#30
Carscw
I am a little slow this time of year so only doing 50 yards a week right now.
Mower, blower, trimmer, edger, pole saw,
Carscw
What do you use it for during the winter?
I am a little slow this time of year so only doing 50 yards a week right now.
Mower, blower, trimmer, edger, pole saw,
#31
Fish
Did you get any of that snow?
Fish
I am a little slow this time of year so only doing 50 yards a week right now.
Mower, blower, trimmer, edger, pole saw,
Did you get any of that snow?
#32
Carscw
We got about 4 inches on Tuesday
The road was dry Wednesday afternoon
All the snow was gone Thursday.
Was in the high 60s today got 13 yards done.
Went to walmart parking lot Tuesday and set out some cones to make a race track
None of the ATVs could hang with my mud mower.
Carscw
Did you get any of that snow?
We got about 4 inches on Tuesday
The road was dry Wednesday afternoon
All the snow was gone Thursday.
Was in the high 60s today got 13 yards done.
Went to walmart parking lot Tuesday and set out some cones to make a race track
None of the ATVs could hang with my mud mower.
#33
B
buzzzmeister
How's this all working out with propane approaching $7+/gallon?
B
buzzzmeister
Hi group,
If you want to have a looksee at what's happening in Commercial Mower news look here:
Offering Propane Equipment and Conversions - Green Industry Pros
And here:
More mowers turning to propane fuel | CharlotteObserver.com
If you have any questions give me a holler...
How's this all working out with propane approaching $7+/gallon?
#34
wjjones
I think the main issue is cost I know it is way better but the conversion cost should be more practical.. if you are going to spend that much it would be better to buy equipment already setup for propane. I wouldnt go out and buy a new mower just to run propane so the cost of the conversion should be cheaper. If they want us to (just wanting to do the right thing) they need to step up on their end with the cost.
wjjones
1. Propane burns cleaner.
2. Propane is a domestic fuel.
3. Propane is up to 60% less expensive than gasoline.
5. Propane has 21% MORE power per pound than gasoline.
6. Propane is a minimum 107 octane.
7. Oil changes can be extended up to 3 times.
8. Propane contains no ethanol.
9. Propane doesn't go "bad" on the shelf.
10. Propane can't be stolen.
11. Legislation (see urls above) is coming to limit the use of gasoline for commercial mowing.
12. Many customers appreciate the efforts to reduce your carbon footprint.
13. Many municipal customers will accept the bid for a "Clean/Green" supplier over polluters.
14. Almost all HOAs will do business with a "Clean/Green" supplier because they are less polluting and quieter.
15. Fewer complaints from employees about emissions.
16. Much easier starting with propane.
17. No annual carb rebuilds with propane.
18. The conversion equipment can be transferred to a new unit.
19. Mowers last up to three times longer with propane.
20. Used units are worth more at resale because the engine has substantially less wear.
I'll stop at Twenty. There are many more not the least of which is "just wanting to do the right thing."
I'm curious, how many mowers did you run on propane? I'd really like to hear of your experience with them.
Regards!
I think the main issue is cost I know it is way better but the conversion cost should be more practical.. if you are going to spend that much it would be better to buy equipment already setup for propane. I wouldnt go out and buy a new mower just to run propane so the cost of the conversion should be cheaper. If they want us to (just wanting to do the right thing) they need to step up on their end with the cost.
#35
Terry CleanFuel
Actually it doesn't affect any of my customers at all. My cutters down south have locked-in at $1.41 and the north doesn't mow much if at all.
Anybody paying $7/gallon should find a new supplier. Mont Bellvue is $1.51.
Terry CleanFuel
How's this all working out with propane approaching $7+/gallon?
Actually it doesn't affect any of my customers at all. My cutters down south have locked-in at $1.41 and the north doesn't mow much if at all.
Anybody paying $7/gallon should find a new supplier. Mont Bellvue is $1.51.
#36
Terry CleanFuel
You're very similar to my SoCal cutters. You'd be surprised what weight a year-round account carries. You'd be ok.
Terry CleanFuel
I am a little slow this time of year so only doing 50 yards a week right now.
Mower, blower, trimmer, edger, pole saw,
You're very similar to my SoCal cutters. You'd be surprised what weight a year-round account carries. You'd be ok.
#37
Terry CleanFuel
Cost is cost pure and simple. An OEM conversion runs about 1800-2500. My markup runs from 17-30%. No kidding. Much of the cost is liability insurance.
I have converted many units by just asking for half their savings until paid for. The customer can write it off and gets praise from the customer base for being "green". Win-win...
Terry CleanFuel
I think the main issue is cost I know it is way better but the conversion cost should be more practical.. if you are going to spend that much it would be better to buy equipment already setup for propane. I wouldnt go out and buy a new mower just to run propane so the cost of the conversion should be cheaper. If they want us to (just wanting to do the right thing) they need to step up on their end with the cost.
Cost is cost pure and simple. An OEM conversion runs about 1800-2500. My markup runs from 17-30%. No kidding. Much of the cost is liability insurance.
I have converted many units by just asking for half their savings until paid for. The customer can write it off and gets praise from the customer base for being "green". Win-win...
#38
Carscw
Carscw
So if I understand this correctly it would be cheaper to buy a new mower and have it converted to propane or to buy one already set up for propane.
#39
Terry CleanFuel
Absolutely correct.
Don't get me wrong, OEMs are good customers but they're sure proud of their conversions.
Terry CleanFuel
So if I understand this correctly it would be cheaper to buy a new mower and have it converted to propane or to buy one already set up for propane.
Absolutely correct.
Don't get me wrong, OEMs are good customers but they're sure proud of their conversions.
#40
B
buzzzmeister
Propane shortage in the upper Midwest. Folks are being forced to let their houses freeze because propane is unobtanium. The company I get my propane from is allotted 1 semi-load of propane/week to keep several thousand households supplied.
B
buzzzmeister
Anybody paying $7/gallon should find a new supplier. Mont Bellvue is $1.51.
Propane shortage in the upper Midwest. Folks are being forced to let their houses freeze because propane is unobtanium. The company I get my propane from is allotted 1 semi-load of propane/week to keep several thousand households supplied.
#41
reynoldston
Wood heat Its takes some work but there is no shortage of heat. I can keep my house in the high 70's to low 80,s degrees all winter long. No running out of fuel because all I have to do is cut down another tree seeing I have 5 acres of woods in my back yard. I have neighbors that heat with propane that can't afford to keep their house warm so they keep their house in the low 60's.
reynoldston
Propane shortage in the upper Midwest. Folks are being forced to let their houses freeze because propane is unobtanium. The company I get my propane from is allotted 1 semi-load of propane/week to keep several thousand households supplied.
Wood heat Its takes some work but there is no shortage of heat. I can keep my house in the high 70's to low 80,s degrees all winter long. No running out of fuel because all I have to do is cut down another tree seeing I have 5 acres of woods in my back yard. I have neighbors that heat with propane that can't afford to keep their house warm so they keep their house in the low 60's.
#42
exotion
exotion
We have natural gas keep my house at 70 its only like 100 a month
Propane around the corner is $4.50 a gallon petrol is 3.80
Propane around the corner is $4.50 a gallon petrol is 3.80
#43
Terry CleanFuel
A transport is only 10,000 gallons. Is he a small independent? Been there done that, it's tough. There IS a bit of "profit-taking" going on though.
If you want to know what folks are paying around you go here:
This Week In Petroleum Propane Section
Terry CleanFuel
Propane shortage in the upper Midwest. Folks are being forced to let their houses freeze because propane is unobtanium. The company I get my propane from is allotted 1 semi-load of propane/week to keep several thousand households supplied.
A transport is only 10,000 gallons. Is he a small independent? Been there done that, it's tough. There IS a bit of "profit-taking" going on though.
If you want to know what folks are paying around you go here:
This Week In Petroleum Propane Section
#44
reynoldston
If I could heat my house for 100 dollars a month with a gas furnace I would be going for it. I buy my fire wood and I would say it cost 100 dollars a month plus a wood fire is work. I can't get natural gas where I live and propane would be like 100 dollars a week to heat with.
reynoldston
We have natural gas keep my house at 70 its only like 100 a month
Propane around the corner is $4.50 a gallon petrol is 3.80
If I could heat my house for 100 dollars a month with a gas furnace I would be going for it. I buy my fire wood and I would say it cost 100 dollars a month plus a wood fire is work. I can't get natural gas where I live and propane would be like 100 dollars a week to heat with.
#45
exotion
I should add my water heater is also on that same gas bill so hot water and heat for 100 a month we only have a 950sqft house to heat tho well insulated and vinal Windows
exotion
If I could heat my house for 100 dollars a month with a gas furnace I would be going for it. I buy my fire wood and I would say it cost 100 dollars a month plus a wood fire is work. I can't get natural gas where I live and propane would be like 100 dollars a week to heat with.
I should add my water heater is also on that same gas bill so hot water and heat for 100 a month we only have a 950sqft house to heat tho well insulated and vinal Windows
#46
reynoldston
Yes that sure explains things a little different. I am heating 1290 sqft with not so great insulation and old windows.
reynoldston
I should add my water heater is also on that same gas bill so hot water and heat for 100 a month we only have a 950sqft house to heat tho well insulated and vinal Windows
Yes that sure explains things a little different. I am heating 1290 sqft with not so great insulation and old windows.
#47
Terry CleanFuel
My furnace, fireplace, water heater, hot tub, deck heater and BBQ all Natural Gas. Hard to beat it.
Terry CleanFuel
We have natural gas keep my house at 70 its only like 100 a month
Propane around the corner is $4.50 a gallon petrol is 3.80
My furnace, fireplace, water heater, hot tub, deck heater and BBQ all Natural Gas. Hard to beat it.
#48
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
The entire state of Wisconsin has a propane shortage. If you can get anyone to come out they will only fill 50%. Cost is $6.00+ if you can get them to come out. People are ending up with cold homes, frozen pipes, everything you can think of with this cold weather. Haven't been above freezing since the first of the year. It's so bad that I just saw on the TV last night that there is now a fire wood shortage, as more people are now heating with wood because they can not get propane. Getting a different supplier won't help in this case. You may not have a supply problem Idaho or Nevada, but like everything else supply and demand rules. Here in the Midwest covertly doesn't make sense. PS: Filled 3 tanks for our forklifts cost $125, but you have to do it.
#49
B
buzzzmeister
I have a neighbor that has a pellet stove business and arbitrarily tripled the prices of his stoves the first of the month. And is still selling stoves like nuts.
I'm obviously in the wrong business. Then again I get to burn 1200 gal/hr of natural gas in my job to cook corn so all is good. :laughing:
B
buzzzmeister
The entire state of Wisconsin has a propane shortage. If you can get anyone to come out they will only fill 50%. Cost is $6.00+ if you can get them to come out. People are ending up with cold homes, frozen pipes, everything you can think of with this cold weather. Haven't been above freezing since the first of the year. It's so bad that I just saw on the TV last night that there is now a fire wood shortage, as more people are now heating with wood because they can not get propane. Getting a different supplier won't help in this case. You may not have a supply problem Idaho or Nevada, but like everything else supply and demand rules. Here in the Midwest covertly doesn't make sense. PS: Filled 3 tanks for our forklifts cost $125, but you have to do it.
I have a neighbor that has a pellet stove business and arbitrarily tripled the prices of his stoves the first of the month. And is still selling stoves like nuts.
I'm obviously in the wrong business. Then again I get to burn 1200 gal/hr of natural gas in my job to cook corn so all is good. :laughing:
#50
Terry CleanFuel
I'm sure that transportation difficulties have added to the shortages. Looking at the National inventories, yes, inventories are down but not the worst I've seen.
Hang in there and take a good look next summer!
Terry CleanFuel
The entire state of Wisconsin has a propane shortage. If you can get anyone to come out they will only fill 50%. Cost is $6.00+ if you can get them to come out. People are ending up with cold homes, frozen pipes, everything you can think of with this cold weather. Haven't been above freezing since the first of the year. It's so bad that I just saw on the TV last night that there is now a fire wood shortage, as more people are now heating with wood because they can not get propane. Getting a different supplier won't help in this case. You may not have a supply problem Idaho or Nevada, but like everything else supply and demand rules. Here in the Midwest covertly doesn't make sense. PS: Filled 3 tanks for our forklifts cost $125, but you have to do it.
I'm sure that transportation difficulties have added to the shortages. Looking at the National inventories, yes, inventories are down but not the worst I've seen.
Hang in there and take a good look next summer!
#51
Terry CleanFuel
Hate to quote myself but here's the problem:
Propane prices heat up | On Air Videos | Fox Business
Terry CleanFuel
I'm sure that transportation difficulties have added to the shortages. Looking at the National inventories, yes, inventories are down but not the worst I've seen.
Hang in there and take a good look next summer!
Hate to quote myself but here's the problem:
Propane prices heat up | On Air Videos | Fox Business
#52
L
LoCo86
I'm not sure that is that great of a deal. My house at 3000 sqft. cost around $130 a month for hot water and heat.
L
LoCo86
I should add my water heater is also on that same gas bill so hot water and heat for 100 a month we only have a 950sqft house to heat tho well insulated and vinal Windows
I'm not sure that is that great of a deal. My house at 3000 sqft. cost around $130 a month for hot water and heat.
#53
Terry CleanFuel
Much has to do with where you live geographically. SoCal heating costs should be less than Stillwater, MN.
Terry CleanFuel
I'm not sure that is that great of a deal. My house at 3000 sqft. cost around $130 a month for hot water and heat.
Much has to do with where you live geographically. SoCal heating costs should be less than Stillwater, MN.
#54
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Terry, you better check your facts. Right now the cost of natural gas in Minnesota is cheaper than SoCal. Propane prices higher in Minnesota, and across many parts of the US, due to the shortage and transportation problem. This is not going to change anytime soon with the nice weather we are having everywhere. Just trying to get though to you that what works in one part of this great country, will not work when you try to paint us all with the same brush.
#55
Terry CleanFuel
Actually I was considering heating degree days. Price per therm varies (somewhat) according to location.
The North HDD was close to 70 while SoCal was, maybe, 15? It makes a difference.
Not at all trying to paint everybody with the same brush. Just using plain old physics.
Terry CleanFuel
Terry, you better check your facts. Right now the cost of natural gas in Minnesota is cheaper than SoCal. Propane prices higher in Minnesota, and across many parts of the US, due to the shortage and transportation problem. This is not going to change anytime soon with the nice weather we are having everywhere. Just trying to get though to you that what works in one part of this great country, will not work when you try to paint us all with the same brush.
Actually I was considering heating degree days. Price per therm varies (somewhat) according to location.
The North HDD was close to 70 while SoCal was, maybe, 15? It makes a difference.
Not at all trying to paint everybody with the same brush. Just using plain old physics.
#56
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Yes, that's numbers (physics) can be used in a variety of ways. That why you can't be blamed for false advertising. Use one set of numbers to justify your claims and use another set of numbers in a different way to support your first set. Bottom line goes back to your #1 post, which many here disagree with. Converting lawn and garden equipment to propane is not visible nor profitable for the vast majority of this country. Keeping this thread going is great advertising for your business, as you may convince some to convert, but as for me I feel this is a way around the rules of this forum and you should be either billed for your ad or shut down.
#57
Terry CleanFuel
There are those who are interested in preserving their environment and I applaud any effort to do so - not just propane.
If you take issue with any points I've made please provide info to the contrary. I'm happy to provide the correct information here to those who ask for it. I have been in the industry for a very longtime and am an industry expert when it comes to Alternative Fuels be it LPG, CNG, LNG or Fuel Cell. I sometimes have questions about mowers or gensets which have been answered here and am happy to reciprocate with factual information.
"Heating Degree Days" are used in any heating related industry to forecast energy usage and has nothing to do with mowers whatsoever so I'm a bit confused about your attack here. If I in anyway offended you it wasn't intentional.
Terry CleanFuel
Yes, that's numbers (physics) can be used in a variety of ways. That why you can't be blamed for false advertising. Use one set of numbers to justify your claims and use another set of numbers in a different way to support your first set. Bottom line goes back to your #1 post, which many here disagree with. Converting lawn and garden equipment to propane is not visible nor profitable for the vast majority of this country. Keeping this thread going is great advertising for your business, as you may convince some to convert, but as for me I feel this is a way around the rules of this forum and you should be either billed for your ad or shut down.
There are those who are interested in preserving their environment and I applaud any effort to do so - not just propane.
If you take issue with any points I've made please provide info to the contrary. I'm happy to provide the correct information here to those who ask for it. I have been in the industry for a very longtime and am an industry expert when it comes to Alternative Fuels be it LPG, CNG, LNG or Fuel Cell. I sometimes have questions about mowers or gensets which have been answered here and am happy to reciprocate with factual information.
"Heating Degree Days" are used in any heating related industry to forecast energy usage and has nothing to do with mowers whatsoever so I'm a bit confused about your attack here. If I in anyway offended you it wasn't intentional.
#58
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
You may be an "expert" in fuels, but you sure are not an "expert" in lawn and garden equipment or landscaping services. I am not an "expert" in either, but I do recognize methods to get consumers to buy your product. When we try to explain to you the problems we will have converting our equipment, you don't listen, but just expound on the virtues of LP. When we talk about conversion costs being high, you start talking about payback. When we talk about problems with supply and demand, you talk about low prices. When we talk about those prices, you change it to therms, which to me means a unit to measure heat output, BTU's. This is understood by those in the heating industry, but not in the small engine market. Advertising says, if you can't win them over with brilliance, baffle them with BS, read the small print. Now you are calling me an Eco-unfriendly mechanic, because it disagree with your position as an "expert". Another advertising ploy. If it was as simple and cheap as you say, equipment manufacturers would be producing equipment to sell to us. They have not seen a market for it and recognize the problems the consumer will have. The technology that you want use to change to is nothing new, I worked on generators and floor buffing machines run on propane 20+ years ago. If this was the next coming of the industry, it should have been here by now. I will agree that this technology has it's place in society, but not for the vast majority of consumers in lawn care. I may be just retired teacher who just like equipment engineers has never worked on their designs in the field, but I do understand how advertisers use many different ploys to show that their product is the next best thing on the market. Next you'll tell me that it only costs $$$$$ and if you buy today, you'll include a second one free, with a 30 day money back warranty, just pay separate shipping & handling. Bottom line, buyer beware, in this case knowledge is your friend.
#59
Terry CleanFuel
Um, actually, most of the manufacturers DO indeed offer propane powered equipment. It's hard to find one that doesn't.
With your impressive background in small engines I find it hard to believe you are so close-minded when it comes to alternative fuels. My work with Kawasaki, Honda and many others suggest that, if anything, ethanol is the worst thing to happen to them.
The EPA says that small engines contribute 7-10% to the total air pollution in the United States. Propane contributes up to 80% fewer pollutants and is NOT a greenhouse gas. Propane extends engine life up to three times and extends oil-change intervals the same. Last summer the average savings propane vs. gasoline was 57%.
I started in 1979 and, to date, have done over 3000 conversions complete with follow-up and instruction. I've dyno'd most of Schwann's trucks at one time or another and can attest to the horsepower gained. If you care to google commercial propane mowers you'll find many success stories.
Current legislation is headed toward banning commercial mowing with gasoline-powered mowers on "Ozone Action Days". There are numerous benefits both ecologically and financially. Not to mention morally and Patriotically.
If you would like to debate me on propane's benefits, well, have at it. Roll the dice. You'd better have facts though, not some tired rhetoric without substance.
So far you have done nothing to refute my statements but have chosen to attack me personally. If you don't agree, tell me WHY and back it up with facts.
Am I being unreasonable?
Terry CleanFuel
You may be an "expert" in fuels, but you sure are not an "expert" in lawn and garden equipment or landscaping services. I am not an "expert" in either, but I do recognize methods to get consumers to buy your product. When we try to explain to you the problems we will have converting our equipment, you don't listen, but just expound on the virtues of LP. When we talk about conversion costs being high, you start talking about payback. When we talk about problems with supply and demand, you talk about low prices. When we talk about those prices, you change it to therms, which to me means a unit to measure heat output, BTU's. This is understood by those in the heating industry, but not in the small engine market. Advertising says, if you can't win them over with brilliance, baffle them with BS, read the small print. Now you are calling me an Eco-unfriendly mechanic, because it disagree with your position as an "expert". Another advertising ploy. If it was as simple and cheap as you say, equipment manufacturers would be producing equipment to sell to us. They have not seen a market for it and recognize the problems the consumer will have. The technology that you want use to change to is nothing new, I worked on generators and floor buffing machines run on propane 20+ years ago. If this was the next coming of the industry, it should have been here by now. I will agree that this technology has it's place in society, but not for the vast majority of consumers in lawn care. I may be just retired teacher who just like equipment engineers has never worked on their designs in the field, but I do understand how advertisers use many different ploys to show that their product is the next best thing on the market. Next you'll tell me that it only costs $$$$$ and if you buy today, you'll include a second one free, with a 30 day money back warranty, just pay separate shipping & handling. Bottom line, buyer beware, in this case knowledge is your friend.
Um, actually, most of the manufacturers DO indeed offer propane powered equipment. It's hard to find one that doesn't.
With your impressive background in small engines I find it hard to believe you are so close-minded when it comes to alternative fuels. My work with Kawasaki, Honda and many others suggest that, if anything, ethanol is the worst thing to happen to them.
The EPA says that small engines contribute 7-10% to the total air pollution in the United States. Propane contributes up to 80% fewer pollutants and is NOT a greenhouse gas. Propane extends engine life up to three times and extends oil-change intervals the same. Last summer the average savings propane vs. gasoline was 57%.
I started in 1979 and, to date, have done over 3000 conversions complete with follow-up and instruction. I've dyno'd most of Schwann's trucks at one time or another and can attest to the horsepower gained. If you care to google commercial propane mowers you'll find many success stories.
Current legislation is headed toward banning commercial mowing with gasoline-powered mowers on "Ozone Action Days". There are numerous benefits both ecologically and financially. Not to mention morally and Patriotically.
If you would like to debate me on propane's benefits, well, have at it. Roll the dice. You'd better have facts though, not some tired rhetoric without substance.
So far you have done nothing to refute my statements but have chosen to attack me personally. If you don't agree, tell me WHY and back it up with facts.
Am I being unreasonable?
#60
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
By the way, residential natural gas use is measured in "therms". I thought since you were commenting on that that you knew what it was.
My bad.
My bad.
#61
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
. This thread started with the economic feasibility of converting lawn and garden equipment to propane. Now you want to debate therms. I can't take it any more. Uncle, you win, I am wrong, you beat me, I'm too old to battle the south end of a north bound skunk. I am going to do what I should have done to any salesman who try's to sell his product in any way possible, I'm walking away from this thread. Others will be able to read and make their own decisions. Time to let this thread die and wait for someone to to start a thread on converting my snowblower to be powered by an electric motor, with solar panels or wind turbine on top.
#62
H
HotRod1
Natural gas creates more ash during the combustion process and a special oil has to be used to keep the ash suspended in the oil. Does a propane engine require a special oil as well?
H
HotRod1
Hi group,
If you want to have a looksee at what's happening in Commercial Mower news look here:
Offering Propane Equipment and Conversions - Green Industry Pros
And here:
More mowers turning to propane fuel | CharlotteObserver.com
If you have any questions give me a holler...
Natural gas creates more ash during the combustion process and a special oil has to be used to keep the ash suspended in the oil. Does a propane engine require a special oil as well?
#63
Terry CleanFuel
Um, I'd have to agree on that.
Somehow the thread was hijacked to home heating costs. This is measured differently when heating with Natural Gas.
These different measurements are not meant to confuse anybody. What is second nature to me, I understand, is not second nature to all. For this I apologize.
Terry CleanFuel
. This thread started with the economic feasibility of converting lawn and garden equipment to propane. Now you want to debate therms. I can't take it any more. Uncle, you win, I am wrong, you beat me, I'm too old to battle the south end of a north bound skunk. I am going to do what I should have done to any salesman who try's to sell his product in any way possible, I'm walking away from this thread. Others will be able to read and make their own decisions. Time to let this thread die and wait for someone to to start a thread on converting my snowblower to be powered by an electric motor, with solar panels or wind turbine on top.
Um, I'd have to agree on that.
Somehow the thread was hijacked to home heating costs. This is measured differently when heating with Natural Gas.
These different measurements are not meant to confuse anybody. What is second nature to me, I understand, is not second nature to all. For this I apologize.
#64
Terry CleanFuel
Honestly, Hotrod, that's news to me. I've not heard of such a thing...
Terry CleanFuel
Natural gas creates more ash during the combustion process and a special oil has to be used to keep the ash suspended in the oil. Does a propane engine require a special oil as well?
Honestly, Hotrod, that's news to me. I've not heard of such a thing...
#65
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
Folks,
I was invited here by one of your members because the topic had been raised about propane as an alternative fuel for mowers. I know something about this as I have been assisting Kawasaki Motors to that end in their dealer schools in and around the PNW and Mid West. That and I have spent the majority of the past 30 years in the propane industry.
I didn't come here to compete or to argue the feasibility of alternative energy. Ultimately the consumer chooses what is best and I'm happy to oblige them.
Some here have taken issue with me and expressed their opinions quite personally. I find that those who are so verbal have little or no experience with alternative fuels and just choose to ridicule given the anonymity of this venue. Good for you! You are much more clever and witty than I.
Look at the bottom line when choosing an alternative fuel. Look for facts. Do the research and learn from experts. Do what's right for YOU.
I was invited here by one of your members because the topic had been raised about propane as an alternative fuel for mowers. I know something about this as I have been assisting Kawasaki Motors to that end in their dealer schools in and around the PNW and Mid West. That and I have spent the majority of the past 30 years in the propane industry.
I didn't come here to compete or to argue the feasibility of alternative energy. Ultimately the consumer chooses what is best and I'm happy to oblige them.
Some here have taken issue with me and expressed their opinions quite personally. I find that those who are so verbal have little or no experience with alternative fuels and just choose to ridicule given the anonymity of this venue. Good for you! You are much more clever and witty than I.
Look at the bottom line when choosing an alternative fuel. Look for facts. Do the research and learn from experts. Do what's right for YOU.
#66
Carscw
I agree propane could benefit a company with a fleet of mowers but most of us on here only run 2 or 3 mowers
Carscw
Folks, I was invited here by one of your members because the topic had been raised about propane as an alternative fuel for mowers. I know something about this as I have been assisting Kawasaki Motors to that end in their dealer schools in and around the PNW and Mid West. That and I have spent the majority of the past 30 years in the propane industry. I didn't come here to compete or to argue the feasibility of alternative energy. Ultimately the consumer chooses what is best and I'm happy to oblige them. Some here have taken issue with me and expressed their opinions quite personally. I find that those who are so verbal have little or no experience with alternative fuels and just choose to ridicule given the anonymity of this venue. Good for you! You are much more clever and witty than I. Look at the bottom line when choosing an alternative fuel. Look for facts. Do the research and learn from experts. Do what's right for YOU.
I agree propane could benefit a company with a fleet of mowers but most of us on here only run 2 or 3 mowers
#67
Fish
Fish
I think it would likely benefit most Lawncare companies, if they were a serious business, which most here are probably not. The prices in the spring-fall are what is being ignored here, because everyone is enflamed by the shortages on this brutal winter, but he came here in the context of making propane feasible for a Commercial Lawn
care business.....
Not much grass is getting cut in most of the US at the moment, eh? If one would take the time to look locally, many hardware stores refill propane.
So before getting all worked up in this discussion, stop whining about how much propane costs at the moment in Alaska, since it has not much to do with this thread!
If you have a larger business, you could get a setup similar to what the hardware stores have, and they could buy the fuel in the spring/summer when prices are low.
care business.....
Not much grass is getting cut in most of the US at the moment, eh? If one would take the time to look locally, many hardware stores refill propane.
So before getting all worked up in this discussion, stop whining about how much propane costs at the moment in Alaska, since it has not much to do with this thread!
If you have a larger business, you could get a setup similar to what the hardware stores have, and they could buy the fuel in the spring/summer when prices are low.
#68
H
HotRod1
The following are engine oil suppliers that offer oils formulated for CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines.
Valvoline Premium Blueｮ GEO Engine Oil, Mobil GEO 15W-40, AMSOIL Synthetic Vehicular Mobile Natural Gas Engine Oil SAE 15w40, Shell Rotella T3 NG 15W-40, etc.
While these oils are for heavy duty applications they are required because CNG, LNG, and propane create more ash during the combustion process. There is a long list of oil manufactures and explanations available on the internet as to why CNG, LNG, and propane engines require a low ash oil. Westport Engineering and other engine manufacturers offering CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines may offer more technical information about this issue.
Regards,
HotRod1
H
HotRod1
Honestly, Hotrod, that's news to me. I've not heard of such a thing...
The following are engine oil suppliers that offer oils formulated for CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines.
Valvoline Premium Blueｮ GEO Engine Oil, Mobil GEO 15W-40, AMSOIL Synthetic Vehicular Mobile Natural Gas Engine Oil SAE 15w40, Shell Rotella T3 NG 15W-40, etc.
While these oils are for heavy duty applications they are required because CNG, LNG, and propane create more ash during the combustion process. There is a long list of oil manufactures and explanations available on the internet as to why CNG, LNG, and propane engines require a low ash oil. Westport Engineering and other engine manufacturers offering CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines may offer more technical information about this issue.
Regards,
HotRod1
#69
Fish
Fish
This thread kind of died?
#70
exotion
Well at this point we are talking in circles. Lots of good info here but its getting past that.
exotion
This thread kind of died?
Well at this point we are talking in circles. Lots of good info here but its getting past that.
#71
Fish
Fish
Not really, converting a small engine to propane costs @ $150, and if the propane was needed for spring-fall, the savings would be significant. Most of the backlash here
involves the high cost of propane in Northern climates in a real bad winter....
involves the high cost of propane in Northern climates in a real bad winter....
#72
Terry CleanFuel
Good to know. I have no idea what creates this "ash" though.
I DO know that when rebuilding our truck engines we used Bonami and 20w oil to seat the rings because propane burned so clean they wouldn't seat.
I'll ask Todd Mouw next time I see him. This intrigues me.
Terry CleanFuel
The following are engine oil suppliers that offer oils formulated for CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines.
Valvoline Premium Blueｮ GEO Engine Oil, Mobil GEO 15W-40, AMSOIL Synthetic Vehicular Mobile Natural Gas Engine Oil SAE 15w40, Shell Rotella T3 NG 15W-40, etc.
While these oils are for heavy duty applications they are required because CNG, LNG, and propane create more ash during the combustion process. There is a long list of oil manufactures and explanations available on the internet as to why CNG, LNG, and propane engines require a low ash oil. Westport Engineering and other engine manufacturers offering CNG, LNG, and propane powered engines may offer more technical information about this issue.
Regards,
HotRod1
Good to know. I have no idea what creates this "ash" though.
I DO know that when rebuilding our truck engines we used Bonami and 20w oil to seat the rings because propane burned so clean they wouldn't seat.
I'll ask Todd Mouw next time I see him. This intrigues me.
#73
Terry CleanFuel
I apologize for that.
There is a lot of good info out there. Charles House has a great site allpropanemowers.com. Don't visit just to ridicule though...
Terry CleanFuel
Well at this point we are talking in circles. Lots of good info here but its getting past that.
I apologize for that.
There is a lot of good info out there. Charles House has a great site allpropanemowers.com. Don't visit just to ridicule though...