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Ethanol Education
#1
M
Mike_Goad
M
Mike_Goad
Greetings All
This post is about educating people on the issues of ethanol.
I know everyone has their own opinion on fuels and the type of additives to use, if any. They also have a bad rap as "snake oil".
Just to give a little education on ethanol blended fuel.
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
With that said, ethanol has an evil side as well.
All small engine manufactures say not use any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If you do, your warranty can be voided. There are several reasons for this.
1. All ethanol has water in it; depending upon the area, the amount can very. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means that it will absorb water from anything including the air. Once it has absorbed enough water, the ethanol and water will fall out of the gas and sit at the bottom of the tank. If that mixture is sucked up by the carburetor while the engine is running, the engine will probably seize up.
2. Another fact about ethanol is that it does not mix with 2-stroke engine oil. In other words, when you mix your oil and gas together for trimmers etc, some of that gas has no lubrication value.
3. The ethanol water mixture is also very corrosive (ph of 3.5-4). It will eat metal, rubber, and plastic parts. Feel the fuel line on your trimmer. Is it soft or hard? Chances are it is hard. This is from the ethanol.
4. When you buy gas, only get what you need for a month as ethanol blended gas will start to go bad after 30 days. Engines will run on gas that is starting to go bad, but it will destroy an engine if ran for long enough time. One tankful may not do it but running several gallons will. The old gas will carbon up the piston/cylinder and on 4-stroke units, it will gum up the valves so that they stick open.
I have processed and denied many warranty claims over the years because of old gas.
5. Ethanol is about 37% oxygen. Carburetors are designed to compensate for this extra oxygen. If higher amounts of ethanol blended fuel is used, the fuel air ratio is now affected and the engine will leaner.
The key is to find a good fuel stabilizer and keep the gas stabilized at all times.
The trick is to know which stabilizer to use as there are so many out there and all them say there products work the best.
Almost all stabilizers use either alcohol or petroleum distillates as the base for their stabilizers. These items burn very dirty in the engine and will carbon up the engine over time. As far as alcohol is concerned, ethanol is also alcohol and we are having issues with that. Why would you want to add more to the gas?
Yes I work for a fuel additive company. But this post is meant to inform people about ethanol.
Yes our products truly do work. So I do not cross any lines, please google Mechanic in a Bottle. You can also send me a private message and I will send you a free sample. I always say that proof is in the pudding.
This post is about educating people on the issues of ethanol.
I know everyone has their own opinion on fuels and the type of additives to use, if any. They also have a bad rap as "snake oil".
Just to give a little education on ethanol blended fuel.
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
With that said, ethanol has an evil side as well.
All small engine manufactures say not use any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If you do, your warranty can be voided. There are several reasons for this.
1. All ethanol has water in it; depending upon the area, the amount can very. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means that it will absorb water from anything including the air. Once it has absorbed enough water, the ethanol and water will fall out of the gas and sit at the bottom of the tank. If that mixture is sucked up by the carburetor while the engine is running, the engine will probably seize up.
2. Another fact about ethanol is that it does not mix with 2-stroke engine oil. In other words, when you mix your oil and gas together for trimmers etc, some of that gas has no lubrication value.
3. The ethanol water mixture is also very corrosive (ph of 3.5-4). It will eat metal, rubber, and plastic parts. Feel the fuel line on your trimmer. Is it soft or hard? Chances are it is hard. This is from the ethanol.
4. When you buy gas, only get what you need for a month as ethanol blended gas will start to go bad after 30 days. Engines will run on gas that is starting to go bad, but it will destroy an engine if ran for long enough time. One tankful may not do it but running several gallons will. The old gas will carbon up the piston/cylinder and on 4-stroke units, it will gum up the valves so that they stick open.
I have processed and denied many warranty claims over the years because of old gas.
5. Ethanol is about 37% oxygen. Carburetors are designed to compensate for this extra oxygen. If higher amounts of ethanol blended fuel is used, the fuel air ratio is now affected and the engine will leaner.
The key is to find a good fuel stabilizer and keep the gas stabilized at all times.
The trick is to know which stabilizer to use as there are so many out there and all them say there products work the best.
Almost all stabilizers use either alcohol or petroleum distillates as the base for their stabilizers. These items burn very dirty in the engine and will carbon up the engine over time. As far as alcohol is concerned, ethanol is also alcohol and we are having issues with that. Why would you want to add more to the gas?
Yes I work for a fuel additive company. But this post is meant to inform people about ethanol.
Yes our products truly do work. So I do not cross any lines, please google Mechanic in a Bottle. You can also send me a private message and I will send you a free sample. I always say that proof is in the pudding.
#2
Lawnboy18
Lawnboy18
Nice write up. Very informative.
All tho, I have to say that Ethanol is not green. It takes a lot of land and energy to be produced. Land that we could use for food, etc.
All tho, I have to say that Ethanol is not green. It takes a lot of land and energy to be produced. Land that we could use for food, etc.
#3
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
If the entire lower 48 states were corn fields, it would only supply about 10% of the annual demand for gasoline.
#4
RhettWS
Mike,
I tend to agree with others who posted. While your post is informative, the only thing I would agree with (in the part I quoted) is that scientist are looking for other ways to obtain ethanol. Being a scientist, we're always looking for better ways to do something or answer some question (some are pretty stupid). Having said that, the only reason in my mind to make more ethanol is for drinking. It is not environmentally friendly and likely never will be in the grand scheme of things. Yes is is renewable, but so what. Lots of things are renewable but it does not make them ideal for the purpose at hand. I also seriously doubt that oil companies really like ethanol. Yes, it is a cheap additive,but only because our goof ball government pushes and funds it production. If it was really so great they would make it themselves. Ethanol may actually have its place in fuel, at least for now and it might provide a few minor benefits to an internal combustion engine running cleaner, but for our mower's we just have to deal with it. The sooner it is gone, the better.
Please stick to the evil side of it, except for the ethanol found in my drink. :laughing:
RhettWS
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
Mike,
I tend to agree with others who posted. While your post is informative, the only thing I would agree with (in the part I quoted) is that scientist are looking for other ways to obtain ethanol. Being a scientist, we're always looking for better ways to do something or answer some question (some are pretty stupid). Having said that, the only reason in my mind to make more ethanol is for drinking. It is not environmentally friendly and likely never will be in the grand scheme of things. Yes is is renewable, but so what. Lots of things are renewable but it does not make them ideal for the purpose at hand. I also seriously doubt that oil companies really like ethanol. Yes, it is a cheap additive,but only because our goof ball government pushes and funds it production. If it was really so great they would make it themselves. Ethanol may actually have its place in fuel, at least for now and it might provide a few minor benefits to an internal combustion engine running cleaner, but for our mower's we just have to deal with it. The sooner it is gone, the better.
Please stick to the evil side of it, except for the ethanol found in my drink. :laughing:
#5
B
bertsmobile1
I really wish you lot would stick to facts stated honestly and stop adding things that are to say the least slightly speculative or just plain wrong.
You do your cause no good by exagerating and missleading no womder many call all of these prducts snake oil.
If you had done any organic chemistry or had much in the way of experience in any internal combustion repairs you would reaslise just how stupid what you have just written is.
Point No 1 is factually correct then you stick a lump of BS on the end of it which every one knowe is garbage.
Engines do not seize from ingesting water through te fuel system , they just stop and then require a lot of cleaning.
Point No 2 is factually correct in parts. Mineral oil is not soluable ethanol, true which is why we used caster oil in racing engines in the old days. However it is not soluable in modern fuel either and if it was soluable, it could not do the job of lubriating because it would no longer be oil it would be discreet atoms of Hydrogen, Carbon & all the other atoms contained within. Oil forms a fine suspension when mixed with fuel, synthetic oil forms a finner suspension when mixed with fuel which is why it does not smoke.
The second bit is true, come of the fuel going through the carb will have no lubrication which is quiete true, however a lot of the fuel that passes through the carb will have no oil either, that is the nature of a non uniform distribution of suspended oil molecules in fuel which is one of the reasons why two strokes blow blue smoke. Secondly there is generally a lot of condensed oil in the crankcases of two stroke engines, any one who pulls then down can attest to this, particularly with lawnmowers whenr the lower bearing will oft be fully submerged in oil ( well oil diluted by fuel to be accurate ).
So this point is pointless.
point No 3 Ethanol- water is acidic and and is a reducing acid so it will dissolve base metals like aluminium, zinc and brass, all commonly found in carburettors , This is true and alone is the strongest reason for using addatives or better still avoiding ethanol all together.
However ethanol does not eat plastic or rubber, it reacts with some of the elastomers used in some grades of rubber and makes them soft so they break up. In other elastomers, particularly the ones commonly used with neoprene ethanol will get adsorbed into the neoprene causing it to swell and block off pasageways. Eventually it will break down the neoprene and it will become a sticky goo. However it will not touch pollypropelene , polly ethylene and PVC.
The principal reason why fuel lines goes hard is the placticisers & elastomisers are leached out by the fuel itself, ethanol or not.
This process is accelerated greatly by the affect of UV rays, just tha same way as a bucket left out in the sun goes brittle.
If ethanol was making the fuel line hard, it would be harder inside the tank than outside the tank, don't need to Einstein to work out why.
Point No 4 True. Down here fuel is guaranteed for 30 days, from the day it left the refinery not the day you bought it and it starts going off from day 1.
However the rest of that parragraph is speculation pure & simple and the possability of any particular one happening has so many conditions attached to it to make it laughable you may as well told people to watch out for lumps of falling sky.
Point 5 , again true, as atomic weight percentages, ethano is 37% oxygen, towever that Oxygen atom already has a Hydrogen attached to it as it is a Hydroxyl. which is the defining point of any alcahol , the last carbon atom has a Hydrogen and an Hydroxyl on it rather than 2 hydrogens. During combustion that hydroxyl grabs another Hydrogen to become H2O commonly called water and in fact is why ethanol burns COLDER than petrol which is exactly why it was used as a racing fuel till regulations changed in the 60's.
Further more your carburettor works on volume percentages , not atomic weight percentages so it is the VOLUME the oxygen takes that is important , not the weight of the oxygen that is important.
Finally during colder months most fuel companies add substantially more oxygenators that are available from the 10% ethanol.
So it put it very bluntly to the point of being rude running lean from the oxygen in ethanol is pure BS
B
bertsmobile1
Greetings All
This post is about educating people on the issues of ethanol.
I know everyone has their own opinion on fuels and the type of additives to use, if any. They also have a bad rap as "snake oil".
Just to give a little education on ethanol blended fuel.
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
With that said, ethanol has an evil side as well.
All small engine manufactures say not use any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If you do, your warranty can be voided. There are several reasons for this.
1. All ethanol has water in it; depending upon the area, the amount can very. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means that it will absorb water from anything including the air. Once it has absorbed enough water, the ethanol and water will fall out of the gas and sit at the bottom of the tank. If that mixture is sucked up by the carburetor while the engine is running, the engine will probably seize up.
2. Another fact about ethanol is that it does not mix with 2-stroke engine oil. In other words, when you mix your oil and gas together for trimmers etc, some of that gas has no lubrication value.
3. The ethanol water mixture is also very corrosive (ph of 3.5-4). It will eat metal, rubber, and plastic parts. Feel the fuel line on your trimmer. Is it soft or hard? Chances are it is hard. This is from the ethanol.
4. When you buy gas, only get what you need for a month as ethanol blended gas will start to go bad after 30 days. Engines will run on gas that is starting to go bad, but it will destroy an engine if ran for long enough time. One tankful may not do it but running several gallons will. The old gas will carbon up the piston/cylinder and on 4-stroke units, it will gum up the valves so that they stick open.
I have processed and denied many warranty claims over the years because of old gas.
5. Ethanol is about 37% oxygen. Carburetors are designed to compensate for this extra oxygen. If higher amounts of ethanol blended fuel is used, the fuel air ratio is now affected and the engine will leaner.
The key is to find a good fuel stabilizer and keep the gas stabilized at all times.
The trick is to know which stabilizer to use as there are so many out there and all them say there products work the best.
Almost all stabilizers use either alcohol or petroleum distillates as the base for their stabilizers. These items burn very dirty in the engine and will carbon up the engine over time. As far as alcohol is concerned, ethanol is also alcohol and we are having issues with that. Why would you want to add more to the gas?
Yes I work for a fuel additive company. But this post is meant to inform people about ethanol.
Yes our products truly do work. So I do not cross any lines, please google Mechanic in a Bottle. You can also send me a private message and I will send you a free sample. I always say that proof is in the pudding.
I really wish you lot would stick to facts stated honestly and stop adding things that are to say the least slightly speculative or just plain wrong.
You do your cause no good by exagerating and missleading no womder many call all of these prducts snake oil.
If you had done any organic chemistry or had much in the way of experience in any internal combustion repairs you would reaslise just how stupid what you have just written is.
Point No 1 is factually correct then you stick a lump of BS on the end of it which every one knowe is garbage.
Engines do not seize from ingesting water through te fuel system , they just stop and then require a lot of cleaning.
Point No 2 is factually correct in parts. Mineral oil is not soluable ethanol, true which is why we used caster oil in racing engines in the old days. However it is not soluable in modern fuel either and if it was soluable, it could not do the job of lubriating because it would no longer be oil it would be discreet atoms of Hydrogen, Carbon & all the other atoms contained within. Oil forms a fine suspension when mixed with fuel, synthetic oil forms a finner suspension when mixed with fuel which is why it does not smoke.
The second bit is true, come of the fuel going through the carb will have no lubrication which is quiete true, however a lot of the fuel that passes through the carb will have no oil either, that is the nature of a non uniform distribution of suspended oil molecules in fuel which is one of the reasons why two strokes blow blue smoke. Secondly there is generally a lot of condensed oil in the crankcases of two stroke engines, any one who pulls then down can attest to this, particularly with lawnmowers whenr the lower bearing will oft be fully submerged in oil ( well oil diluted by fuel to be accurate ).
So this point is pointless.
point No 3 Ethanol- water is acidic and and is a reducing acid so it will dissolve base metals like aluminium, zinc and brass, all commonly found in carburettors , This is true and alone is the strongest reason for using addatives or better still avoiding ethanol all together.
However ethanol does not eat plastic or rubber, it reacts with some of the elastomers used in some grades of rubber and makes them soft so they break up. In other elastomers, particularly the ones commonly used with neoprene ethanol will get adsorbed into the neoprene causing it to swell and block off pasageways. Eventually it will break down the neoprene and it will become a sticky goo. However it will not touch pollypropelene , polly ethylene and PVC.
The principal reason why fuel lines goes hard is the placticisers & elastomisers are leached out by the fuel itself, ethanol or not.
This process is accelerated greatly by the affect of UV rays, just tha same way as a bucket left out in the sun goes brittle.
If ethanol was making the fuel line hard, it would be harder inside the tank than outside the tank, don't need to Einstein to work out why.
Point No 4 True. Down here fuel is guaranteed for 30 days, from the day it left the refinery not the day you bought it and it starts going off from day 1.
However the rest of that parragraph is speculation pure & simple and the possability of any particular one happening has so many conditions attached to it to make it laughable you may as well told people to watch out for lumps of falling sky.
Point 5 , again true, as atomic weight percentages, ethano is 37% oxygen, towever that Oxygen atom already has a Hydrogen attached to it as it is a Hydroxyl. which is the defining point of any alcahol , the last carbon atom has a Hydrogen and an Hydroxyl on it rather than 2 hydrogens. During combustion that hydroxyl grabs another Hydrogen to become H2O commonly called water and in fact is why ethanol burns COLDER than petrol which is exactly why it was used as a racing fuel till regulations changed in the 60's.
Further more your carburettor works on volume percentages , not atomic weight percentages so it is the VOLUME the oxygen takes that is important , not the weight of the oxygen that is important.
Finally during colder months most fuel companies add substantially more oxygenators that are available from the 10% ethanol.
So it put it very bluntly to the point of being rude running lean from the oxygen in ethanol is pure BS
#6
M
Mikel1
M
Mikel1
Sounds just like a salesman.
Ethanol also evaporates along with water molecules. Fuel also contains additives. There are way too many variables to say exactly how long fuel will last such as humidity, time fuel has spent in gas station tanks, temperatures, how mower or other OPE was stored, etc. My truck regularly has fuel in it for a month. I guess it shouldn't work.
Why aren't all reviews of your product on Amazon at 5 stars since it's so great. You may need to post this to lawnsite as well.
Ethanol also evaporates along with water molecules. Fuel also contains additives. There are way too many variables to say exactly how long fuel will last such as humidity, time fuel has spent in gas station tanks, temperatures, how mower or other OPE was stored, etc. My truck regularly has fuel in it for a month. I guess it shouldn't work.
Why aren't all reviews of your product on Amazon at 5 stars since it's so great. You may need to post this to lawnsite as well.
#7
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I haven't yet found the perfect fuel additives, but I have found several that work fairly well.
I use Star Tron additive with every fuel container refill. I have a measuring cup that measures down to 1/3 fluid ounce.
As I store fuel and machines in a closed cargo trailer, the internal temps get high in daytime and cool at night time.
With stored fuel, both in the machines and storage jugs, the fuel will start to turn after three weeks if not used up.
I then add Sea Foam to bring the fuel back to usable.
Having had two very dry mowing seasons the last two years and as I mow on a when needed basis, there are periods of up to three weeks when the machines don't get used.
When the fuel gets passed the point, I pour it into my truck.
I use Star Tron additive with every fuel container refill. I have a measuring cup that measures down to 1/3 fluid ounce.
As I store fuel and machines in a closed cargo trailer, the internal temps get high in daytime and cool at night time.
With stored fuel, both in the machines and storage jugs, the fuel will start to turn after three weeks if not used up.
I then add Sea Foam to bring the fuel back to usable.
Having had two very dry mowing seasons the last two years and as I mow on a when needed basis, there are periods of up to three weeks when the machines don't get used.
When the fuel gets passed the point, I pour it into my truck.
#8
Carscw
Carscw
Here we go with this **** again.
Every few months someone brings this up.
As in the past I still say bull **** that ethanol is the problem.
The problem is cheap made parts and low quality workmanship. Then you have the ones that do no maintenance and blame ethanol.
Then the ones that say look what ethanol did to my carb. Ok prove it.
Every few months someone brings this up.
As in the past I still say bull **** that ethanol is the problem.
The problem is cheap made parts and low quality workmanship. Then you have the ones that do no maintenance and blame ethanol.
Then the ones that say look what ethanol did to my carb. Ok prove it.
#9
B
bertsmobile1
In winter when all the fire pumps from the volunteer fire fighters come in for their services I shall send you the photographs.
The ones who turn the fuel off & run the motor dry will be fine
The ones who turn the engine off then turn the fuel off ( as per instruction book ) will have a carb full of white jelly
The ones who forgot to turn the fuel off will have a carb full of varnish .
Both of the latter two will most likely have no zinc plating left on the bowl and some will break off when I try to undo the bowl nut.
These are genuine Honda engines mostly 160's
B
bertsmobile1
Here we go with this **** again.
Every few months someone brings this up.
As in the past I still say bull **** that ethanol is the problem.
The problem is cheap made parts and low quality workmanship. Then you have the ones that do no maintenance and blame ethanol.
Then the ones that say look what ethanol did to my carb. Ok prove it.
In winter when all the fire pumps from the volunteer fire fighters come in for their services I shall send you the photographs.
The ones who turn the fuel off & run the motor dry will be fine
The ones who turn the engine off then turn the fuel off ( as per instruction book ) will have a carb full of white jelly
The ones who forgot to turn the fuel off will have a carb full of varnish .
Both of the latter two will most likely have no zinc plating left on the bowl and some will break off when I try to undo the bowl nut.
These are genuine Honda engines mostly 160's
#10
Carscw
And you know ethanol is causing this how?
Carscw
In winter when all the fire pumps from the volunteer fire fighters come in for their services I shall send you the photographs. The ones who turn the fuel off & run the motor dry will be fine The ones who turn the engine off then turn the fuel off ( as per instruction book ) will have a carb full of white jelly The ones who forgot to turn the fuel off will have a carb full of varnish . Both of the latter two will most likely have no zinc plating left on the bowl and some will break off when I try to undo the bowl nut. These are genuine Honda engines mostly 160's
And you know ethanol is causing this how?
#11
M
Mike_Goad
You know what they say about arguing with idiots....However, I do need to point out a few things.
You know I would love to say something just as "nice" about you but since I know you as much as you know me, I will not. First, I have been repairing, and teaching power equipment for 25 years. I have been to many Factory Training seminars over the years and have performed thousands of service schools. I have corroborated on and written service manuals and study guides. I hold a Masters Degree in Education. I have served on the board of directors of the Equipment and Engine Training Council and have served as President as well. So yes, I do know a thing or two about how the internal combustion works on both 2 and 4 stroke engines as well as how fuels work.
If you are the chemist you believe yourself to be, you need to stick to facts. Yes, I speculated about how many tanks of old gas it would take to ruin an engine. Other than this, I can prove everything that I said.
1. If a 2-stroke engine ingests water/ethanol while running can in fact seize up. Since you obviously do not understand that 2-stroke engines require lubrication while running and oil and ethanol/water do not mix. Therefore, there is no lubrication for the engine.
2. If the oil does not not bond with the gas, why would it not fall out (come back together either float on top or puddle on the bottom of a tank)?
3. You are right about the fuel lines not getting "eaten" by ethanol. This article was very long and I was generalizing. However, fuel lines are very much affected by ethanol. Since ethanol contains oxygen, and most units are stored in a shed or garage where it gets hot; thermal oxidation will affect the fuel lines. One of two things will happen, either embrittlement or reversion.
4. What I said is a fact. However, the amount of time it takes does vary.
5. Again, what I said is fact. I never said anything about atomic weights. Simply that ethanol is approx. 37% oxygen. The more ethanol that is in the gas, the more oxygen. Ask engine manufactures and carburetor manufactures.
By the way, your comments would not be so bad if you were polite, and if you spelled things correctly.
M
Mike_Goad
I really wish you lot would stick to facts stated honestly and stop adding things that are to say the least slightly speculative or just plain wrong.
You do your cause no good by exagerating and missleading no womder many call all of these prducts snake oil.
If you had done any organic chemistry or had much in the way of experience in any internal combustion repairs you would reaslise just how stupid what you have just written is.
Point No 1 is factually correct then you stick a lump of BS on the end of it which every one knowe is garbage.
Engines do not seize from ingesting water through te fuel system , they just stop and then require a lot of cleaning.
Point No 2 is factually correct in parts. Mineral oil is not soluable ethanol, true which is why we used caster oil in racing engines in the old days. However it is not soluable in modern fuel either and if it was soluable, it could not do the job of lubriating because it would no longer be oil it would be discreet atoms of Hydrogen, Carbon & all the other atoms contained within. Oil forms a fine suspension when mixed with fuel, synthetic oil forms a finner suspension when mixed with fuel which is why it does not smoke.
The second bit is true, come of the fuel going through the carb will have no lubrication which is quiete true, however a lot of the fuel that passes through the carb will have no oil either, that is the nature of a non uniform distribution of suspended oil molecules in fuel which is one of the reasons why two strokes blow blue smoke. Secondly there is generally a lot of condensed oil in the crankcases of two stroke engines, any one who pulls then down can attest to this, particularly with lawnmowers whenr the lower bearing will oft be fully submerged in oil ( well oil diluted by fuel to be accurate ).
So this point is pointless.
point No 3 Ethanol- water is acidic and and is a reducing acid so it will dissolve base metals like aluminium, zinc and brass, all commonly found in carburettors , This is true and alone is the strongest reason for using addatives or better still avoiding ethanol all together.
However ethanol does not eat plastic or rubber, it reacts with some of the elastomers used in some grades of rubber and makes them soft so they break up. In other elastomers, particularly the ones commonly used with neoprene ethanol will get adsorbed into the neoprene causing it to swell and block off pasageways. Eventually it will break down the neoprene and it will become a sticky goo. However it will not touch pollypropelene , polly ethylene and PVC.
The principal reason why fuel lines goes hard is the placticisers & elastomisers are leached out by the fuel itself, ethanol or not.
This process is accelerated greatly by the affect of UV rays, just tha same way as a bucket left out in the sun goes brittle.
If ethanol was making the fuel line hard, it would be harder inside the tank than outside the tank, don't need to Einstein to work out why.
Point No 4 True. Down here fuel is guaranteed for 30 days, from the day it left the refinery not the day you bought it and it starts going off from day 1.
However the rest of that parragraph is speculation pure & simple and the possability of any particular one happening has so many conditions attached to it to make it laughable you may as well told people to watch out for lumps of falling sky.
Point 5 , again true, as atomic weight percentages, ethano is 37% oxygen, towever that Oxygen atom already has a Hydrogen attached to it as it is a Hydroxyl. which is the defining point of any alcahol , the last carbon atom has a Hydrogen and an Hydroxyl on it rather than 2 hydrogens. During combustion that hydroxyl grabs another Hydrogen to become H2O commonly called water and in fact is why ethanol burns COLDER than petrol which is exactly why it was used as a racing fuel till regulations changed in the 60's.
Further more your carburettor works on volume percentages , not atomic weight percentages so it is the VOLUME the oxygen takes that is important , not the weight of the oxygen that is important.
Finally during colder months most fuel companies add substantially more oxygenators that are available from the 10% ethanol.
So it put it very bluntly to the point of being rude running lean from the oxygen in ethanol is pure BS
You know what they say about arguing with idiots....However, I do need to point out a few things.
You know I would love to say something just as "nice" about you but since I know you as much as you know me, I will not. First, I have been repairing, and teaching power equipment for 25 years. I have been to many Factory Training seminars over the years and have performed thousands of service schools. I have corroborated on and written service manuals and study guides. I hold a Masters Degree in Education. I have served on the board of directors of the Equipment and Engine Training Council and have served as President as well. So yes, I do know a thing or two about how the internal combustion works on both 2 and 4 stroke engines as well as how fuels work.
If you are the chemist you believe yourself to be, you need to stick to facts. Yes, I speculated about how many tanks of old gas it would take to ruin an engine. Other than this, I can prove everything that I said.
1. If a 2-stroke engine ingests water/ethanol while running can in fact seize up. Since you obviously do not understand that 2-stroke engines require lubrication while running and oil and ethanol/water do not mix. Therefore, there is no lubrication for the engine.
2. If the oil does not not bond with the gas, why would it not fall out (come back together either float on top or puddle on the bottom of a tank)?
3. You are right about the fuel lines not getting "eaten" by ethanol. This article was very long and I was generalizing. However, fuel lines are very much affected by ethanol. Since ethanol contains oxygen, and most units are stored in a shed or garage where it gets hot; thermal oxidation will affect the fuel lines. One of two things will happen, either embrittlement or reversion.
4. What I said is a fact. However, the amount of time it takes does vary.
5. Again, what I said is fact. I never said anything about atomic weights. Simply that ethanol is approx. 37% oxygen. The more ethanol that is in the gas, the more oxygen. Ask engine manufactures and carburetor manufactures.
By the way, your comments would not be so bad if you were polite, and if you spelled things correctly.
#12
M
Mike_Goad
You are absolutely correct that using corn for ethanol is not very green. The numbers vary depending on who you ask, but corn ethanol only produce about 400 gallons per year per acre. Goal is 10,000 gallons per year per acre. The closest thing that comes to this is algae. Normal product will get about 8,500 gallons per acre per year.
M
Mike_Goad
Nice write up. Very informative.
All tho, I have to say that Ethanol is not green. It takes a lot of land and energy to be produced. Land that we could use for food, etc.
You are absolutely correct that using corn for ethanol is not very green. The numbers vary depending on who you ask, but corn ethanol only produce about 400 gallons per year per acre. Goal is 10,000 gallons per year per acre. The closest thing that comes to this is algae. Normal product will get about 8,500 gallons per acre per year.
#13
M
Mike_Goad
First off, I am not a salesman. My official title is Director of Education. As previously stated in other posts, I have been in the Lawn and Garden industry for 25 years. I have worked in the shop repairing units; I teach dealers how to repair units and I work with fuels.
You are absolutely right, there are too many variables to say when gas will go bad. But it does go bad!
Most people who leave a bad review either did not use the product correctly, had another issue not related to fuel (ignition etc), or the carburetor was too far gone.
M
Mike_Goad
Sounds just like a salesman.
Ethanol also evaporates along with water molecules. Fuel also contains additives. There are way too many variables to say exactly how long fuel will last such as humidity, time fuel has spent in gas station tanks, temperatures, how mower or other OPE was stored, etc. My truck regularly has fuel in it for a month. I guess it shouldn't work.
Why aren't all reviews of your product on Amazon at 5 stars since it's so great. You may need to post this to lawnsite as well.
First off, I am not a salesman. My official title is Director of Education. As previously stated in other posts, I have been in the Lawn and Garden industry for 25 years. I have worked in the shop repairing units; I teach dealers how to repair units and I work with fuels.
You are absolutely right, there are too many variables to say when gas will go bad. But it does go bad!
Most people who leave a bad review either did not use the product correctly, had another issue not related to fuel (ignition etc), or the carburetor was too far gone.
#14
M
Mike_Goad
You can do experiments with non-ethanol gas and ethanol gas to prove it.
M
Mike_Goad
And you know ethanol is causing this how?
You can do experiments with non-ethanol gas and ethanol gas to prove it.
#15
M
Mike_Goad
I will not bad mouth the brands that you use. I will However, offer you free samples for you to compare. send me a private message with your address and I will ship you some.
M
Mike_Goad
I haven't yet found the perfect fuel additives, but I have found several that work fairly well.
I use Star Tron additive with every fuel container refill. I have a measuring cup that measures down to 1/3 fluid ounce.
As I store fuel and machines in a closed cargo trailer, the internal temps get high in daytime and cool at night time.
With stored fuel, both in the machines and storage jugs, the fuel will start to turn after three weeks if not used up.
I then add Sea Foam to bring the fuel back to usable.
Having had two very dry mowing seasons the last two years and as I mow on a when needed basis, there are periods of up to three weeks when the machines don't get used.
When the fuel gets passed the point, I pour it into my truck.
I will not bad mouth the brands that you use. I will However, offer you free samples for you to compare. send me a private message with your address and I will ship you some.
#16
M
Mike_Goad
According to the website, ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn/trade.aspx#US the US exports around 18 million metric tons of corn each year. We produce more than enough corn for all purposes.
M
Mike_Goad
If the entire lower 48 states were corn fields, it would only supply about 10% of the annual demand for gasoline.
According to the website, ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn/trade.aspx#US the US exports around 18 million metric tons of corn each year. We produce more than enough corn for all purposes.
#17
Ric
I'd have to kinda disagree with the gas going bad thing. Gas never really goes bad, especially in 30 days. Yes some of the components will tend to evaporate when it sits for a period time and it may not have the volatility it had when it was first purchased but for the most part it will start and run an engine effectively. Especially a mower engine.
Ric
First off, I am not a salesman. My official title is Director of Education. As previously stated in other posts, I have been in the Lawn and Garden industry for 25 years. I have worked in the shop repairing units; I teach dealers how to repair units and I work with fuels.
You are absolutely right, there are too many variables to say when gas will go bad. But it does go bad!
Most people who leave a bad review either did not use the product correctly, had another issue not related to fuel (ignition etc), or the carburetor was too far gone.
I'd have to kinda disagree with the gas going bad thing. Gas never really goes bad, especially in 30 days. Yes some of the components will tend to evaporate when it sits for a period time and it may not have the volatility it had when it was first purchased but for the most part it will start and run an engine effectively. Especially a mower engine.
#18
silver1
I was in Home Depot the other day and saw a 1 gallon can of Ethanol FREE fuel for $10.00. It was in the lawn mower section.
Very interesting.
silver1
Here we go with this **** again.
Every few months someone brings this up.
As in the past I still say bull **** that ethanol is the problem.
The problem is cheap made parts and low quality workmanship. Then you have the ones that do no maintenance and blame ethanol.
Then the ones that say look what ethanol did to my carb. Ok prove it.
I was in Home Depot the other day and saw a 1 gallon can of Ethanol FREE fuel for $10.00. It was in the lawn mower section.
Very interesting.
#19
Carscw
That would cost me about $100 a day.
Carscw
I was in Home Depot the other day and saw a 1 gallon can of Ethanol FREE fuel for $10.00. It was in the lawn mower section. Very interesting.
That would cost me about $100 a day.
#20
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
This response will need to be split due to size restrictions.
Please also note I do not dissagree that ethanol in fuel is not a good idea, you can search my posts to verify this.
However I do object to over egging the custard, exagerating and extrapolating till the results become tandamount a plain lie.
I was trying not to be offensive but having an engineering background, not a political one, I tend to be a bit blunt.
I have used your product and it did make the engine run ( well start anyway) better. And this was stated in a previous response.
Firstly everyone on this list is just electrons in cyberspace so I for one never bother with formal qualifiction, but as you have raised the matter I hold a BSc in Metallurgy and got 2/3 way through a M Sc when I had to leave.
Postgradute diplomas in general non-destructive testing; specialist radiography ; accoustic emissions; non- medical ultrasonic determinations ; thermonic analysis and adult education or I could be a lavatory cleaner.
Sorry about the spelling, when I was at UNSW I got tested and was "typical of an engineering science student, excellent retention, excellent identification of misspelling , lousy spelling. If I was being paid while on here then I would go back & spell check but these are written when I sit at the computer to check parts diagrams or write orders while having a cuppa. And yes I write for two trade journals although not so much now days as I have been out of industry for a while.
I live in Australia , the country that designed the absolute best 2 stroke lawn mower engine ever to be built, the Victa Power Torque which was the dominant mower engine down here for over 30 years so I have pulled down a two stroke or two and this is excluding all the BSA Bantams I have worked on or walked people through rebuilding worldwide so I am very conversant with both the theory & practice of 2 cycle engines. I am also very conversant with the distribution system of molecules in a suspension and yes I can make an engine sieze, but not running e10 with normal amounts of 2 stroke oil regardles of weather phase seperation has occured or not as some of the fuel will have oil mixed in it . Any one who has run strait gas in their blue smoke will be able to attest to this as usually you can run near a full tank through before the engine overheats and seizure begins. Unless it is a brand new engine with no oil on the bore or condensed oil sitting in the bearings.
In fact spraying water mist into a fast reving 2 stroke is a recognised method of decoking as the water turns into super heated dry dissasociated steam inside the engine and scours the carbon build up from the piston, bore & exhaust.
And you can do this till the water content is so high it will extinguish the flame propergation
Water injection cools the engine and has been used in particular by navies to get bombers off the decks of aircraft carriers and in large deisel engines to reduce fuel consumption.
Vehicle makers toyed with this post WWII for a long time to try and get it to work reliably in domestic vehicles.
However if you mixed mineral oil with strait ethanol, or a water saturated ethanol the engine will seize, if you can get it to start at all which is why we ran caster oil in our methanol buring race bikes back in the day.
However if you end up sucking the phase seperated saturated ethanol that has dropped to the bottom of the fuel tank most engine will simply stop
Please also note I do not dissagree that ethanol in fuel is not a good idea, you can search my posts to verify this.
However I do object to over egging the custard, exagerating and extrapolating till the results become tandamount a plain lie.
I was trying not to be offensive but having an engineering background, not a political one, I tend to be a bit blunt.
I have used your product and it did make the engine run ( well start anyway) better. And this was stated in a previous response.
You know what they say about arguing with idiots....However, I do need to point out a few things.
You know I would love to say something just as "nice" about you but since I know you as much as you know me, I will not. First, I have been repairing, and teaching power equipment for 25 years. I have been to many Factory Training seminars over the years and have performed thousands of service schools. I have corroborated on and written service manuals and study guides. I hold a Masters Degree in Education. I have served on the board of directors of the Equipment and Engine Training Council and have served as President as well. So yes, I do know a thing or two about how the internal combustion works on both 2 and 4 stroke engines as well as how fuels work.
If you are the chemist you believe yourself to be, you need to stick to facts. Yes, I speculated about how many tanks of old gas it would take to ruin an engine. Other than this, I can prove everything that I said.
Firstly everyone on this list is just electrons in cyberspace so I for one never bother with formal qualifiction, but as you have raised the matter I hold a BSc in Metallurgy and got 2/3 way through a M Sc when I had to leave.
Postgradute diplomas in general non-destructive testing; specialist radiography ; accoustic emissions; non- medical ultrasonic determinations ; thermonic analysis and adult education or I could be a lavatory cleaner.
Sorry about the spelling, when I was at UNSW I got tested and was "typical of an engineering science student, excellent retention, excellent identification of misspelling , lousy spelling. If I was being paid while on here then I would go back & spell check but these are written when I sit at the computer to check parts diagrams or write orders while having a cuppa. And yes I write for two trade journals although not so much now days as I have been out of industry for a while.
1. If a 2-stroke engine ingests water/ethanol while running can in fact seize up. Since you obviously do not understand that 2-stroke engines require lubrication while running and oil and ethanol/water do not mix. Therefore, there is no lubrication for the engine.
I live in Australia , the country that designed the absolute best 2 stroke lawn mower engine ever to be built, the Victa Power Torque which was the dominant mower engine down here for over 30 years so I have pulled down a two stroke or two and this is excluding all the BSA Bantams I have worked on or walked people through rebuilding worldwide so I am very conversant with both the theory & practice of 2 cycle engines. I am also very conversant with the distribution system of molecules in a suspension and yes I can make an engine sieze, but not running e10 with normal amounts of 2 stroke oil regardles of weather phase seperation has occured or not as some of the fuel will have oil mixed in it . Any one who has run strait gas in their blue smoke will be able to attest to this as usually you can run near a full tank through before the engine overheats and seizure begins. Unless it is a brand new engine with no oil on the bore or condensed oil sitting in the bearings.
In fact spraying water mist into a fast reving 2 stroke is a recognised method of decoking as the water turns into super heated dry dissasociated steam inside the engine and scours the carbon build up from the piston, bore & exhaust.
And you can do this till the water content is so high it will extinguish the flame propergation
Water injection cools the engine and has been used in particular by navies to get bombers off the decks of aircraft carriers and in large deisel engines to reduce fuel consumption.
Vehicle makers toyed with this post WWII for a long time to try and get it to work reliably in domestic vehicles.
However if you mixed mineral oil with strait ethanol, or a water saturated ethanol the engine will seize, if you can get it to start at all which is why we ran caster oil in our methanol buring race bikes back in the day.
However if you end up sucking the phase seperated saturated ethanol that has dropped to the bottom of the fuel tank most engine will simply stop
#21
BlazNT
BlazNT
Im glad you pointed this out. I dont have your background but know of what you said to be true.
#22
B
bertsmobile1
You said DISSOLVE, not bond, even a person with a Masters in education must realize that there is a world of difference between a dissolution and a suspension.
2 stroke oil molecules are homophillic on the end thus will bond with anything else other than themselves so they bond onto 3 , 6 or 9 fuel molecules depending upon the shape of the oil molecule used.
And they do drop to the bottom, you can confirm this by adding a marking dye but because they are homophillic they will not recombine into an oil puddle and because the fuel tank is vibrating and fuel is being continually cycled through the tank on hand helds, the distribution remains reasonably consistant . They do drop out of suspension in the crankcase due the affect of the primary compression on the partial pressure equlibrium between the air/oil/fuel suspension which for practical purpose is similar but not exactly the same as water condensing in an air compressor.
Yes the 10% ethanol can, under the right conditions cause some softening or embrittlement of fuel lines but this is no more than will happen due to effects of the other solvents found in modern gasoline.
Benzene is a solvent that attacks fuel lines, tolluene is a solvent that attacks fuel lines, both of which are in modern fuel in higher percentages than ethanol.
Your product may help to delay the deterioration of fuel lines bit to blame ethanol for fuel line failures is a very very long bow to draw particularly as most fuel lines are made from ethanol resistant formulas.
The fuel lines that are adversly affected by ethanol are usually found cheap Chneese products and are better than 20% latex as latex has been chaeper than synthetic rubber & plastics for quite a while.
Only avgas is guarranteed to be good for a specified time so this does not belong in an "EVIL ETHANOL " thread.
Further more there are so many variables in the composition of the fuel which as you know varies consistantly from batch to batch and the storeage & transport of the gas and this is before we pump it.
So a couple of gallons could be 200 gallons there are people on this list who happly admit to using gas that is years old without problems.
Again , your product might actually stabilize modern fuel for a long while buy telling every one that stale fuel WILL destroy their engines is not true, it CAN, under the RIGHT CONDITIONS cause vlaves to stick but in most cases will simply gum up the carb as every one on this list will agree with and a job I do daily.
You don't need to say Atomic weight percentage that is a fact of physical chemistry.
The actual number varies according to how you calculate it
You might like to check this link .webqc.org/molecular-weight-of-ethanol
However the same for Octane is 114
so in a 10% ethanol blend the actual percentage of Oxygen is 37 / ( 114 x 9 + 40 x 1) or about 3.5 % of the Fuel assuming you are burning octane, which you are not.
Engines usually run 12:1 to 15:1 air fuel ratio and air is about 20% oxygen at STP so for the purpose of combustion the oxygen content of the fuel is insignificant. Around 0.3% using simplified math and ignoring humidity.
Add to that "fuel" had isopropal alcohol added to it , up to 5% Wt/ Volume + MTBE about 0,5 % and both of these have Oxygen in their chemical composition plus a whole host of secret ingredients nearly all of which will have an oxygen or two in their molecules.
Ethanol burns a lot colder than octane go look up the entrophy tables and specifiic heats of combustion you dont want to believe me.
Believe you me I was not trying to be abusive or rude but as an engineer & scientist I deplore the mixing up of fact & fiction ( extrapolation to extremes = fiction ) which causes things that are plain wrong or at the very best slightly possible under the right circumstances becoming common "truths". This is what the Mythbusters were all about and if you go back through their back catalogue you will see they delt with stale fuel, ethanol & addatives on more than 1 occasion.
B
bertsmobile1
2. If the oil does not not bond with the gas, why would it not fall out (come back together either float on top or puddle on the bottom of a tank)?
You said DISSOLVE, not bond, even a person with a Masters in education must realize that there is a world of difference between a dissolution and a suspension.
2 stroke oil molecules are homophillic on the end thus will bond with anything else other than themselves so they bond onto 3 , 6 or 9 fuel molecules depending upon the shape of the oil molecule used.
And they do drop to the bottom, you can confirm this by adding a marking dye but because they are homophillic they will not recombine into an oil puddle and because the fuel tank is vibrating and fuel is being continually cycled through the tank on hand helds, the distribution remains reasonably consistant . They do drop out of suspension in the crankcase due the affect of the primary compression on the partial pressure equlibrium between the air/oil/fuel suspension which for practical purpose is similar but not exactly the same as water condensing in an air compressor.
3. You are right about the fuel lines not getting "eaten" by ethanol. This article was very long and I was generalizing. However, fuel lines are very much affected by ethanol. Since ethanol contains oxygen, and most units are stored in a shed or garage where it gets hot; thermal oxidation will affect the fuel lines. One of two things will happen, either embrittlement or reversion.
Yes the 10% ethanol can, under the right conditions cause some softening or embrittlement of fuel lines but this is no more than will happen due to effects of the other solvents found in modern gasoline.
Benzene is a solvent that attacks fuel lines, tolluene is a solvent that attacks fuel lines, both of which are in modern fuel in higher percentages than ethanol.
Your product may help to delay the deterioration of fuel lines bit to blame ethanol for fuel line failures is a very very long bow to draw particularly as most fuel lines are made from ethanol resistant formulas.
The fuel lines that are adversly affected by ethanol are usually found cheap Chneese products and are better than 20% latex as latex has been chaeper than synthetic rubber & plastics for quite a while.
I did not dispute this . However bad stale gas applies equally as much to plain unleadded as it does to e10 in fact it applies to modern deisel as well.4. What I said is a fact. However, the amount of time it takes does vary.
Only avgas is guarranteed to be good for a specified time so this does not belong in an "EVIL ETHANOL " thread.
Further more there are so many variables in the composition of the fuel which as you know varies consistantly from batch to batch and the storeage & transport of the gas and this is before we pump it.
So a couple of gallons could be 200 gallons there are people on this list who happly admit to using gas that is years old without problems.
Again , your product might actually stabilize modern fuel for a long while buy telling every one that stale fuel WILL destroy their engines is not true, it CAN, under the RIGHT CONDITIONS cause vlaves to stick but in most cases will simply gum up the carb as every one on this list will agree with and a job I do daily.
5. Again, what I said is fact. I never said anything about atomic weights. Simply that ethanol is approx. 37% oxygen. The more ethanol that is in the gas, the more oxygen. Ask engine manufactures and carburetor manufactures.
You don't need to say Atomic weight percentage that is a fact of physical chemistry.
The actual number varies according to how you calculate it
You might like to check this link .webqc.org/molecular-weight-of-ethanol
However the same for Octane is 114
so in a 10% ethanol blend the actual percentage of Oxygen is 37 / ( 114 x 9 + 40 x 1) or about 3.5 % of the Fuel assuming you are burning octane, which you are not.
Engines usually run 12:1 to 15:1 air fuel ratio and air is about 20% oxygen at STP so for the purpose of combustion the oxygen content of the fuel is insignificant. Around 0.3% using simplified math and ignoring humidity.
Add to that "fuel" had isopropal alcohol added to it , up to 5% Wt/ Volume + MTBE about 0,5 % and both of these have Oxygen in their chemical composition plus a whole host of secret ingredients nearly all of which will have an oxygen or two in their molecules.
Ethanol burns a lot colder than octane go look up the entrophy tables and specifiic heats of combustion you dont want to believe me.
By the way, your comments would not be so bad if you were polite, and if you spelled things correctly.
Believe you me I was not trying to be abusive or rude but as an engineer & scientist I deplore the mixing up of fact & fiction ( extrapolation to extremes = fiction ) which causes things that are plain wrong or at the very best slightly possible under the right circumstances becoming common "truths". This is what the Mythbusters were all about and if you go back through their back catalogue you will see they delt with stale fuel, ethanol & addatives on more than 1 occasion.
#23
John R
John R
Nice write up, thanks for posting, luckily for now I can still buy gas without the corn squeeze ins.
#24
M
Mikel1
M
Mikel1
I knew this was going to get interesting with that response directed at Bert.
It takes alot of water and fertilizers to grow corn. I have seen wells go dry from farmers irrigating during the hot, dry summer months.
It takes alot of water and fertilizers to grow corn. I have seen wells go dry from farmers irrigating during the hot, dry summer months.
#25
B
bertsmobile1
The tragedy of this is you don't need to process corn into ethanol.
You can make it from almost any vegetable matter, like left over orange peel from the juice industry, potato peelings from chip makers, olive pulp from olive oil making, timber trash left over from logging and some barks are really good.
Remember ethanol is not a chemical product made by processing it is the urine from a specific family of bacteria. For everything that ever lived there is a bacteria to return it to its base elements and return it to the soil and that includes all on this last.
Industry is just lazy, greedy and cheap so it is easier to process corn. It would be enviromentally better to use forrest trash then return the spent trash to the forrests as fertilizer.
Everything we need to live a good life can be synthisised from forrest products, some of you will remember products like "wood alcohol" and "wood terpentine" the latter which was only overtaken by "mineral terpentine" in the 70's.
However industry got really greedy and convinced us that lazy & wasteful is convienant OOPS better stop or I start to get political.
B
bertsmobile1
I knew this was going to get interesting with that response directed at Bert.
It takes alot of water and fertilizers to grow corn. I have seen wells go dry from farmers irrigating during the hot, dry summer months.
The tragedy of this is you don't need to process corn into ethanol.
You can make it from almost any vegetable matter, like left over orange peel from the juice industry, potato peelings from chip makers, olive pulp from olive oil making, timber trash left over from logging and some barks are really good.
Remember ethanol is not a chemical product made by processing it is the urine from a specific family of bacteria. For everything that ever lived there is a bacteria to return it to its base elements and return it to the soil and that includes all on this last.
Industry is just lazy, greedy and cheap so it is easier to process corn. It would be enviromentally better to use forrest trash then return the spent trash to the forrests as fertilizer.
Everything we need to live a good life can be synthisised from forrest products, some of you will remember products like "wood alcohol" and "wood terpentine" the latter which was only overtaken by "mineral terpentine" in the 70's.
However industry got really greedy and convinced us that lazy & wasteful is convienant OOPS better stop or I start to get political.
#26
BlazNT
LOL all the governments like to tell us how to do stuff better when it was better to begin with.
BlazNT
However industry got really greedy and convinced us that lazy & wasteful is convienant OOPS better stop or I start to get political.
LOL all the governments like to tell us how to do stuff better when it was better to begin with.
#27
B
bertsmobile1
And just to show that I am not trying to denegrate Mike, I will also agree with what he has said in this post.
Water sitting in the bottom of a zinc carb, with a brass needle & in some cases float and a steel bowl will in enough time initiate enough galvanic corrosion to destroy the carb, but it will take a long time & we are talking a decade plus.
many of us have pulled the motorcycle / mower / car etc from a paddock, leaning against a fence etc etc etc that had been sitting there for years and most times tha carb was full of water and after some cleaning could be returned to service.
Many on this list have been brought a mower that has sat idle for a single season with ethanol fuel left in the carb only to find the carb body has been so badly erroded by the fuel that it is beyound repair.
The EPA requirement of a fuel cut off in the float bowl has made this worse because the mower sits there with a float bowl full of fuel and if it is ethanol fuel there is a very good chance it will be cactus.
The same carb left full of non ethanol fuel will have evaporated the fuel and done no more damage than to leave behind the disgusting slime & varnish deposits.
B
bertsmobile1
You can do experiments with non-ethanol gas and ethanol gas to prove it.
And just to show that I am not trying to denegrate Mike, I will also agree with what he has said in this post.
Water sitting in the bottom of a zinc carb, with a brass needle & in some cases float and a steel bowl will in enough time initiate enough galvanic corrosion to destroy the carb, but it will take a long time & we are talking a decade plus.
many of us have pulled the motorcycle / mower / car etc from a paddock, leaning against a fence etc etc etc that had been sitting there for years and most times tha carb was full of water and after some cleaning could be returned to service.
Many on this list have been brought a mower that has sat idle for a single season with ethanol fuel left in the carb only to find the carb body has been so badly erroded by the fuel that it is beyound repair.
The EPA requirement of a fuel cut off in the float bowl has made this worse because the mower sits there with a float bowl full of fuel and if it is ethanol fuel there is a very good chance it will be cactus.
The same carb left full of non ethanol fuel will have evaporated the fuel and done no more damage than to leave behind the disgusting slime & varnish deposits.
#28
B
bertsmobile1
However it will be different in different states or even 50 miles down the road because the mix of hydrocarbons sold as fuel are not stable.
I usually can keep fuel for around 6 months in a HDPE container and a bit over a year in a steel jerry can but the fuel in the tank of most of my motorcycles can go off in a couple of weeks.
The low temperature volatiles evaporate off and heavier particles that have dropped out of solution deposit on the spark plug and cause it to wet short.
People then blame the plug for "going bad" when it was not the plug it was the fuel that caused the plug to go bad.
Oddly enough the 1927 B2 , 1929 L29 1942 WM20 & the 1966 B40GA are not affected the same way. They will start on fuel that has been sitting in their tanks for well over a year.
But the C 15, B25, B44, A65's & B50 will not even kick without fresh fuel.
The problem is fuel is blended to suit the item it is being used in and now days that is a computer controlled fuel injected car engine.
B
bertsmobile1
And this is your personnal experience and true for the fuel you use sored under the conditions you store it in.I'd have to kinda disagree with the gas going bad thing. Gas never really goes bad, especially in 30 days. Yes some of the components will tend to evaporate when it sits for a period time and it may not have the volatility it had when it was first purchased but for the most part it will start and run an engine effectively. Especially a mower engine.
However it will be different in different states or even 50 miles down the road because the mix of hydrocarbons sold as fuel are not stable.
I usually can keep fuel for around 6 months in a HDPE container and a bit over a year in a steel jerry can but the fuel in the tank of most of my motorcycles can go off in a couple of weeks.
The low temperature volatiles evaporate off and heavier particles that have dropped out of solution deposit on the spark plug and cause it to wet short.
People then blame the plug for "going bad" when it was not the plug it was the fuel that caused the plug to go bad.
Oddly enough the 1927 B2 , 1929 L29 1942 WM20 & the 1966 B40GA are not affected the same way. They will start on fuel that has been sitting in their tanks for well over a year.
But the C 15, B25, B44, A65's & B50 will not even kick without fresh fuel.
The problem is fuel is blended to suit the item it is being used in and now days that is a computer controlled fuel injected car engine.
#29
Ric
I agree, storing fuel correctly can make a difference in how well the gas runs over time but whether it's 50 miles down the road or in Maine or California really doesn't make a difference. People complain about Ethanol and it's seems like it's always a carburetor issues, ever wonder why. The Japanese said way back in the late 70s or early 80s there was not a carburetor on the market that could run a gas and oil mixture efficiently or effectively for any length of time and they were right. That's the reason Suzuki Outboard basically took over the industry.
The thing is you can complain all you want about Ethanol and it's not going to change things one bit, Ethanol is here and it's going to stay. If these guys are complaining about running 10% ethanol in there mowers now wait till it jumps to 15% and it's not going to be long in coming. Cars are being manufactured and already running anything up to E85 without any problems.
The problems people have with the gas they get today is caused by them, they make there own problems trying to change what is today and live in yesterday or the past. There a lot like you with your 15 year old out dated Mac, living in the past and not willing to accept what is today, yes it works but not efficiently or effectively.
Ric
And this is your personal experience and true for the fuel you use stored under the conditions you store it in.
However it will be different in different states or even 50 miles down the road because the mix of hydrocarbons sold as fuel are not stable.
I usually can keep fuel for around 6 months in a HDPE container and a bit over a year in a steel jerry can but the fuel in the tank of most of my motorcycles can go off in a couple of weeks.
The low temperature volatiles evaporate off and heavier particles that have dropped out of solution deposit on the spark plug and cause it to wet short.
People then blame the plug for "going bad" when it was not the plug it was the fuel that caused the plug to go bad.
Oddly enough the 1927 B2 , 1929 L29 1942 WM20 & the 1966 B40GA are not affected the same way. They will start on fuel that has been sitting in their tanks for well over a year.
But the C 15, B25, B44, A65's & B50 will not even kick without fresh fuel.
The problem is fuel is blended to suit the item it is being used in and now days that is a computer controlled fuel injected car engine.
I agree, storing fuel correctly can make a difference in how well the gas runs over time but whether it's 50 miles down the road or in Maine or California really doesn't make a difference. People complain about Ethanol and it's seems like it's always a carburetor issues, ever wonder why. The Japanese said way back in the late 70s or early 80s there was not a carburetor on the market that could run a gas and oil mixture efficiently or effectively for any length of time and they were right. That's the reason Suzuki Outboard basically took over the industry.
The thing is you can complain all you want about Ethanol and it's not going to change things one bit, Ethanol is here and it's going to stay. If these guys are complaining about running 10% ethanol in there mowers now wait till it jumps to 15% and it's not going to be long in coming. Cars are being manufactured and already running anything up to E85 without any problems.
The problems people have with the gas they get today is caused by them, they make there own problems trying to change what is today and live in yesterday or the past. There a lot like you with your 15 year old out dated Mac, living in the past and not willing to accept what is today, yes it works but not efficiently or effectively.
#30
D
DK35vince
D
DK35vince
Yea, and it takes a computerized fuel injection system to make it work.The thing is you can complain all you want about Ethanol and it's not going to change things one bit, Ethanol is here and it's going to stay. If these guys are complaining about running 10% ethanol in there mowers now wait till it jumps to 15% and it's not going to be long in coming. Cars are being manufactured and already running anything up to E85 without any problems.
#31
Ric
Yeah it's called the Computer age and whether we like it or not it effects everyone and everything, all aspects of life so get use to it because it's only going to get better.
Ric
Yea, and it takes a computerized fuel injection system to make it work.
Yeah it's called the Computer age and whether we like it or not it effects everyone and everything, all aspects of life so get use to it because it's only going to get better.
#32
R
renniumSdar
R
renniumSdar
The standard of education represents something more significant than just a system of knowledge and skills. This is a quality standard that reflects the optimal level of the educational process. It denotes an example, an ideal to strive for in education. The standard expresses not only the content of the curriculum, but also the ways of teaching, educating, and supporting students. It defines the criteria for success and helps create an environment where every student can reach their potential and achieve their best.
#33
M
Maxjemm
M
Maxjemm
You offered a good standard!Greetings All
This post is about educating people on the issues of ethanol.
I know everyone has their own opinion on fuels and the type of additives to use, if any. They also have a bad rap as "snake oil".
Just to give a little education on ethanol blended fuel.
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
With that said, ethanol has an evil side as well.
All small engine manufactures say not use any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If you do, your warranty can be voided. There are several reasons for this.
1. All ethanol has water in it; depending upon the area, the amount can very. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means that it will absorb water from anything including the air. Once it has absorbed enough water, the ethanol and water will fall out of the gas and sit at the bottom of the tank. If that mixture is sucked up by the carburetor while the engine is running, the engine will probably seize up.
2. Another fact about ethanol is that it does not mix with 2-stroke engine oil. In other words, when you mix your oil and gas together for trimmers etc, some of that gas has no lubrication value.
3. The ethanol water mixture is also very corrosive (ph of 3.5-4). It will eat metal, rubber, and plastic parts. Feel the fuel line on your trimmer. Is it soft or hard? Chances are it is hard. This is from the ethanol.
4. When you buy gas, only get what you need for a month as ethanol blended gas will start to go bad after 30 days. Engines will run on gas that is starting to go bad, but it will destroy an engine if ran for long enough time. One tankful may not do it but running several gallons will. The old gas will carbon up the piston/cylinder and on 4-stroke units, it will gum up the valves so that they stick open.
I have processed and denied many warranty claims over the years because of old gas.
5. Ethanol is about 37% oxygen. Carburetors are designed to compensate for this extra oxygen. If higher amounts of ethanol blended fuel is used, the fuel air ratio is now affected and the engine will leaner.
The key is to find a good fuel stabilizer and keep the gas stabilized at all times.
The trick is to know which stabilizer to use as there are so many out there and all them say there products work the best.
Almost all stabilizers use either alcohol or petroleum distillates as the base for their stabilizers. These items burn very dirty in the engine and will carbon up the engine over time. As far as alcohol is concerned, ethanol is also alcohol and we are having issues with that. Why would you want to add more to the gas?
Yes I work for a fuel additive company. But this post is meant to inform people about ethanol.
Yes our products truly do work. So I do not cross any lines, please google Mechanic in a Bottle. You can also send me a private message and I will send you a free sample. I always say that proof is in the pudding. In my opinion the standard of education is such that universities admit students not on the basis of their intelligence and skills but on the basis of who writes the SoP, this is not correct. Doesn't the commission know that there are services that statement of purpose writing service? Therefore, it is impossible to identify students using this document; this is not correct!
#34
R
roys1955
R
roys1955
Alcohol in gasoline was proven by the University of Wisconsin to pollute 24% more than gasoline alone. Putting alcohol in gas is all politics, bad politicsGreetings All
This post is about educating people on the issues of ethanol.
I know everyone has their own opinion on fuels and the type of additives to use, if any. They also have a bad rap as "snake oil".
Just to give a little education on ethanol blended fuel.
First off, ethanol is good for the economy, it is a renewable source of fuel, and it is good for the environment. It is not going away. In fact, scientists are looking for new and more cost effective ways to produce ethanol other than from corn. The oil companies say they do not like Ethanol but they really do. Ethanol is a cheap way for them to boost octane.
With that said, ethanol has an evil side as well.
All small engine manufactures say not use any fuel with more than 10% ethanol. If you do, your warranty can be voided. There are several reasons for this.
1. All ethanol has water in it; depending upon the area, the amount can very. Ethanol is hygroscopic which means that it will absorb water from anything including the air. Once it has absorbed enough water, the ethanol and water will fall out of the gas and sit at the bottom of the tank. If that mixture is sucked up by the carburetor while the engine is running, the engine will probably seize up.
2. Another fact about ethanol is that it does not mix with 2-stroke engine oil. In other words, when you mix your oil and gas together for trimmers etc, some of that gas has no lubrication value.
3. The ethanol water mixture is also very corrosive (ph of 3.5-4). It will eat metal, rubber, and plastic parts. Feel the fuel line on your trimmer. Is it soft or hard? Chances are it is hard. This is from the ethanol.
4. When you buy gas, only get what you need for a month as ethanol blended gas will start to go bad after 30 days. Engines will run on gas that is starting to go bad, but it will destroy an engine if ran for long enough time. One tankful may not do it but running several gallons will. The old gas will carbon up the piston/cylinder and on 4-stroke units, it will gum up the valves so that they stick open.
I have processed and denied many warranty claims over the years because of old gas.
5. Ethanol is about 37% oxygen. Carburetors are designed to compensate for this extra oxygen. If higher amounts of ethanol blended fuel is used, the fuel air ratio is now affected and the engine will leaner.
The key is to find a good fuel stabilizer and keep the gas stabilized at all times.
The trick is to know which stabilizer to use as there are so many out there and all them say there products work the best.
Almost all stabilizers use either alcohol or petroleum distillates as the base for their stabilizers. These items burn very dirty in the engine and will carbon up the engine over time. As far as alcohol is concerned, ethanol is also alcohol and we are having issues with that. Why would you want to add more to the gas?
Yes I work for a fuel additive company. But this post is meant to inform people about ethanol.
Yes our products truly do work. So I do not cross any lines, please google Mechanic in a Bottle. You can also send me a private message and I will send you a free sample. I always say that proof is in the pudding.
#35
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Hey Scrub,
My ethanol gas is better than your ethanol gas.
My ethanol gas is better than your ethanol gas.