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Electronic Clutch Dis-Engages-- Need Help
#1
V
vern66
V
vern66
Lawn Mower type and Description:
Cub Cadet LT1045 46 inch Mower Deck
Model: 13RX11CH756 621-879
Serial Number: 1F137H10222
Date of Mfgr: 6-2007
Battery is new and fully charged -- and 360 amp which is somewhat more amps than normal Minimum for this category of Lawn Mowers. Manual shows as using a 235 amp battery.
This Lawn Mower has an Electric Clutch for supplying power for turning the Mower Blades.
All Engine and Mower functions perform normal and without any type of problem -- with the exception that the Electronic Clutch stops as if Battery Power through the Clutch Switch is disconnected (turned off) during actual mowing. Of course, when this happens; the Mower Blades stop turning. I can push in (turn off) the switch then turn back on and it then functions normal for a period of time. This happens at varying frequencies with length of time being variable.
This issue occurs even when running Engine speed at full throttle but seems to be more frequent when using less than full throttle (less than full engine RPM). When the lawn grass is not dense, I prefer to not use full engine RPM.
Any suggestions to resolve this would be appreciated.
Cub Cadet LT1045 46 inch Mower Deck
Model: 13RX11CH756 621-879
Serial Number: 1F137H10222
Date of Mfgr: 6-2007
Battery is new and fully charged -- and 360 amp which is somewhat more amps than normal Minimum for this category of Lawn Mowers. Manual shows as using a 235 amp battery.
This Lawn Mower has an Electric Clutch for supplying power for turning the Mower Blades.
All Engine and Mower functions perform normal and without any type of problem -- with the exception that the Electronic Clutch stops as if Battery Power through the Clutch Switch is disconnected (turned off) during actual mowing. Of course, when this happens; the Mower Blades stop turning. I can push in (turn off) the switch then turn back on and it then functions normal for a period of time. This happens at varying frequencies with length of time being variable.
This issue occurs even when running Engine speed at full throttle but seems to be more frequent when using less than full throttle (less than full engine RPM). When the lawn grass is not dense, I prefer to not use full engine RPM.
Any suggestions to resolve this would be appreciated.
#2
G
Gearjammer
G
Gearjammer
I'd check to see that the reverse/back-up switch is working properly including the over ride switch which lets you back up and keep the mower engaged. Any of those safety switches could be kicking the electric clutch out of gear, so pay close attention to what was happening when it stopped. (Were you shifting around in the seat? etc...) Good luck. Gearjammer
#3
V
vern66
Thanks for the reply. I have the seat safety switch (temporarily) disconnected -- so this one is out of the equation.
I will have to do some research (location, etc) regarding the others so I can check them. This Lawn Mower has been doing this for quite a long time but reason I am now trying to resolve this is because the usage has become the primary mower and before it was used primarily in late fall for leaf mulching
V
vern66
I'd check to see that the reverse/back-up switch is working properly including the over ride switch which lets you back up and keep the mower engaged. Any of those safety switches could be kicking the electric clutch out of gear, so pay close attention to what was happening when it stopped. (Were you shifting around in the seat? etc...) Good luck. Gearjammer
Thanks for the reply. I have the seat safety switch (temporarily) disconnected -- so this one is out of the equation.
I will have to do some research (location, etc) regarding the others so I can check them. This Lawn Mower has been doing this for quite a long time but reason I am now trying to resolve this is because the usage has become the primary mower and before it was used primarily in late fall for leaf mulching
#4
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
I suspect the air gap is too large for the magnet to hold the 2 contact plates together. If you have an adjustable clutch try adjusting it. You should be running at full rpms whenever you are mowing unless you need to temporarily throttle down for a bare dusty section or something.
#5
M
MowLife
M
MowLife
I worked on a government contract where we used hustler zero turns and this was a common problem. Most of the time it was a bad pto switch. If you can get down there with a volt meter when it cuts off to see if your getting proper voltage will narrow it down. If your getting voltage from the wires at the cluch at the time it cuts off you have a clutch problem. If not then probably a bad pto switch. Other safety switches may tie into pto switch that you can easily test by ohm testing the switches.
#6
V
vern66
Thanks for your reply: How is the best way to determine if the clutch is adjustable -- preferably while it is in the present installed status. I have not checked to see if this information is included in the parts list for the clutch.
I don't recall seeing tyhis but I will (of course) check for this again.
V
vern66
I suspect the air gap is too large for the magnet to hold the 2 contact plates together. If you have an adjustable clutch try adjusting it. You should be running at full rpms whenever you are mowing unless you need to temporarily throttle down for a bare dusty section or something.
Thanks for your reply: How is the best way to determine if the clutch is adjustable -- preferably while it is in the present installed status. I have not checked to see if this information is included in the parts list for the clutch.
I don't recall seeing tyhis but I will (of course) check for this again.
#7
V
vern66
That could be slightly difficult and I believe the engine may have to be turned off in order to check this otherwise it could be slightly dangerous especially should the clutch make contact and start running again. Also, turning off the switch would lose all DC voltage from the battery. However, I first will check all contacts on the Clutch switch to be sure there is good contact with the switch connections which (without looking yet) I expect the connections are "slip on" types.
I also will apply Caig contact Cleaner & Enhancer on the connectors.
V
vern66
I worked on a government contract where we used hustler zero turns and this was a common problem. Most of the time it was a bad pto switch. If you can get down there with a volt meter when it cuts off to see if your getting proper voltage will narrow it down. If your getting voltage from the wires at the cluch at the time it cuts off you have a clutch problem. If not then probably a bad pto switch. Other safety switches may tie into pto switch that you can easily test by ohm testing the switches.
That could be slightly difficult and I believe the engine may have to be turned off in order to check this otherwise it could be slightly dangerous especially should the clutch make contact and start running again. Also, turning off the switch would lose all DC voltage from the battery. However, I first will check all contacts on the Clutch switch to be sure there is good contact with the switch connections which (without looking yet) I expect the connections are "slip on" types.
I also will apply Caig contact Cleaner & Enhancer on the connectors.
#8
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
Adjustable clutches usually have 3 nuts on the face arranged in a triangle that are used for adjusting it.
#9
V
vern66
I did a quick check by hoisting the front part of the mower up so to see the Clutch assembly. However, honestly it is so dirty (also didn't have adequate lighting) that with my quick review I did not see what you have described. I plan to call Cub Cadet in the morning and find out if the original Lawn Mower assembly used the adjustable type of clutch. The Manual only supplies the name and part number (717-04174A) but does not indicate if it is the adjustable type.
I believe it is probably the non adjustable type. If it is not adjustable, I prefer to not remove it without trying to find the issue as described for it to occasionally stop working properly -- due possibly by some mal-functioning of any of the items discussed by various posts.
V
vern66
Adjustable clutches usually have 3 nuts on the face arranged in a triangle that are used for adjusting it.
I did a quick check by hoisting the front part of the mower up so to see the Clutch assembly. However, honestly it is so dirty (also didn't have adequate lighting) that with my quick review I did not see what you have described. I plan to call Cub Cadet in the morning and find out if the original Lawn Mower assembly used the adjustable type of clutch. The Manual only supplies the name and part number (717-04174A) but does not indicate if it is the adjustable type.
I believe it is probably the non adjustable type. If it is not adjustable, I prefer to not remove it without trying to find the issue as described for it to occasionally stop working properly -- due possibly by some mal-functioning of any of the items discussed by various posts.
#10
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
You can download the repair manual for you mower from Cub, it is a free download but you will need all of the numbers off the ID tag either under the seat or behind the front left wheel on the frame rail
There are a few reasons that clutch fail
Incorrect air gap ( already mentioned ) put a charger on the battery & engage the clutch, it should stay engaged till the battery goes flat ( hence the charger )
faulty switch ( also already mentioned )
Broken wires , usually at or just inside the clutch, turn the clutch on then wiggle & pull the wires.
Bad ground contact ( voltage will be less than 12 V at the clutch plug )
There are a few reasons that clutch fail
Incorrect air gap ( already mentioned ) put a charger on the battery & engage the clutch, it should stay engaged till the battery goes flat ( hence the charger )
faulty switch ( also already mentioned )
Broken wires , usually at or just inside the clutch, turn the clutch on then wiggle & pull the wires.
Bad ground contact ( voltage will be less than 12 V at the clutch plug )
#11
S
SidecarFlip
S
SidecarFlip
be prepared to pay big bucks for a new clutch assembly, they aren't a cheap date by long shot.
On my cub, I managed to sever one of the wires going to the clutch so I took it off the pto end of the motor and got in on the bench and found out I had just enough wire left to attach a solder on butt connector and call ot good (did that on both leads). Then I added female butt connectors to the leads from the clutch switch and made doubly sure the wires were tucked up next to the frame, run in plastic convoluted tubing and securely zip tied to any and all tie points along the frame. No trouble since.
I was adverse to buying a new clutch in as much as a new one is around 150 bucks. I have other priorities to spend my money on.
Unless you spend an inordinate amount of time switching the clutch on and off, the air gap won't change that much. I have 7 years on my clutch and it's still just fine. engages hard and quick and disengages the same.
On my cub, I managed to sever one of the wires going to the clutch so I took it off the pto end of the motor and got in on the bench and found out I had just enough wire left to attach a solder on butt connector and call ot good (did that on both leads). Then I added female butt connectors to the leads from the clutch switch and made doubly sure the wires were tucked up next to the frame, run in plastic convoluted tubing and securely zip tied to any and all tie points along the frame. No trouble since.
I was adverse to buying a new clutch in as much as a new one is around 150 bucks. I have other priorities to spend my money on.
Unless you spend an inordinate amount of time switching the clutch on and off, the air gap won't change that much. I have 7 years on my clutch and it's still just fine. engages hard and quick and disengages the same.
#12
Padroo
Padroo
On car A/C one of the tricks is to bump the clutch with something like a broom handle and see if it engages. If it doesn't the air gap is too wide. I would get a wiring diagram and follow every connection and inspect all connections and switches can be checked with an ohm meter but a voltage drop test would be the best.
#13
V
vern66
This morning I spoke with Cub Cadet Technical Support and he said the original clutch is NOT the adjustable type.
I then raised front of the mower up to visually check the unit and it definitely does not have the usual 3 outside edge adjustment areas.
I then unplugged all electrical connections that were assessable and sprayed with contact cleaner -- then reconnected all.
I don't have any grass to cut now plus it reined early this morning that causing not a good time to cut. I run the unit (with PTO engaged and blades spinning) for around 15 minutes there in the shop and it did not malfunction. This (of course) is not a good test but assures that I reconnected all properly.
I will wait for dryer weather to do a proper test to see if the condition still exists. Hopefully, it was a faulty connection causing the clutch to fail occasionally.
Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
V
vern66
You can download the repair manual for you mower from Cub, it is a free download but you will need all of the numbers off the ID tag either under the seat or behind the front left wheel on the frame rail
There are a few reasons that clutch fail
Incorrect air gap ( already mentioned ) put a charger on the battery & engage the clutch, it should stay engaged till the battery goes flat ( hence the charger )
faulty switch ( also already mentioned )
Broken wires , usually at or just inside the clutch, turn the clutch on then wiggle & pull the wires.
Bad ground contact ( voltage will be less than 12 V at the clutch plug )
This morning I spoke with Cub Cadet Technical Support and he said the original clutch is NOT the adjustable type.
I then raised front of the mower up to visually check the unit and it definitely does not have the usual 3 outside edge adjustment areas.
I then unplugged all electrical connections that were assessable and sprayed with contact cleaner -- then reconnected all.
I don't have any grass to cut now plus it reined early this morning that causing not a good time to cut. I run the unit (with PTO engaged and blades spinning) for around 15 minutes there in the shop and it did not malfunction. This (of course) is not a good test but assures that I reconnected all properly.
I will wait for dryer weather to do a proper test to see if the condition still exists. Hopefully, it was a faulty connection causing the clutch to fail occasionally.
Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
#14
V
vern66
I used this Lawn Mower this evening approximately 1.5 hours -- primarily to mulch leaves on part of the lawn. The PTO clutch dropped contact 4 times during this period which appears to be basically no change from as discussed in original post.
Evidently, the things I did to it had no beneficial effects. However, due to the cost; I do not plan to replace the PTO Clutch at this time since it (of course) is very obvious when the Clutch drops contact.
V
vern66
This morning I spoke with Cub Cadet Technical Support and he said the original clutch is NOT the adjustable type.
I then raised front of the mower up to visually check the unit and it definitely does not have the usual 3 outside edge adjustment areas.
I then unplugged all electrical connections that were assessable and sprayed with contact cleaner -- then reconnected all.
I don't have any grass to cut now plus it reined early this morning that causing not a good time to cut. I run the unit (with PTO engaged and blades spinning) for around 15 minutes there in the shop and it did not malfunction. This (of course) is not a good test but assures that I reconnected all properly.
I will wait for dryer weather to do a proper test to see if the condition still exists. Hopefully, it was a faulty connection causing the clutch to fail occasionally.
Thanks to all for the helpful replies.
I used this Lawn Mower this evening approximately 1.5 hours -- primarily to mulch leaves on part of the lawn. The PTO clutch dropped contact 4 times during this period which appears to be basically no change from as discussed in original post.
Evidently, the things I did to it had no beneficial effects. However, due to the cost; I do not plan to replace the PTO Clutch at this time since it (of course) is very obvious when the Clutch drops contact.
#16
D
Darryl G
D
Darryl G
Certainly could be the switch.
Vern - Have you tried wiggling the switch while it's running? It could have a bad contact or loose wire.
Vern - Have you tried wiggling the switch while it's running? It could have a bad contact or loose wire.
#17
V
vern66
No I haven't done that. However, I disconnected the switch and sprayed both the male and female contacts with a good quality Contact Cleaner. It definitely appears to lose voltage to the PTO Clutch and this seems to be same when using either of the "Key positions" normal plus the reverse position.
Perhaps I should disconnect the PTO switch and add the necessary substitute (wiring) connections that will run the clutch and see if it has the same type failure. The switch positions may be different from the unit that I worked with on a Husqvarna Lawn Mower -- but if so, I will sample the connections with my meters to find the correct usage of each of the contacts.
V
vern66
Certainly could be the switch.
Vern - Have you tried wiggling the switch while it's running? It could have a bad contact or loose wire.
No I haven't done that. However, I disconnected the switch and sprayed both the male and female contacts with a good quality Contact Cleaner. It definitely appears to lose voltage to the PTO Clutch and this seems to be same when using either of the "Key positions" normal plus the reverse position.
Perhaps I should disconnect the PTO switch and add the necessary substitute (wiring) connections that will run the clutch and see if it has the same type failure. The switch positions may be different from the unit that I worked with on a Husqvarna Lawn Mower -- but if so, I will sample the connections with my meters to find the correct usage of each of the contacts.
#18
M
MowLife
M
MowLife
I’ve seen many just go bad internally. That is a good thought just to give it another source of power to see if you truly have a clutch or a voltage problem.
#19
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Because clutches are so expensive I like to run a bypass to the clutch plug.
How this is done depends upon the plug.
Where possible I run direct from the battery to the clutch.
If not I pull the clutch switch out & either jump the switch or replace it with a known good one from stock.
The switches are crude sliding contact type & subject to wear, arcing. corrosion , dirt or all 3
How this is done depends upon the plug.
Where possible I run direct from the battery to the clutch.
If not I pull the clutch switch out & either jump the switch or replace it with a known good one from stock.
The switches are crude sliding contact type & subject to wear, arcing. corrosion , dirt or all 3
#20
S
SidecarFlip
Good tip Bert....
Nice thing about all the electro-magnetic clutches is, most aren't rebuildable.
S
SidecarFlip
Because clutches are so expensive I like to run a bypass to the clutch plug.
How this is done depends upon the plug.
Where possible I run direct from the battery to the clutch.
If not I pull the clutch switch out & either jump the switch or replace it with a known good one from stock.
The switches are crude sliding contact type & subject to wear, arcing. corrosion , dirt or all 3
Good tip Bert....
Nice thing about all the electro-magnetic clutches is, most aren't rebuildable.
#21
V
vern66
V
vern66
Re: Electronic Clutch Dis-Engages-- FINAL CONCLUSION
The several replies that referred to the PTO Switch potentially being the main source of the problem were completely correct in their Diagnostics and Opinion.
Today, I disconnected the connection from the wiring harness to the 2 wires that goes to the PTO Clutch. I Used an in-line fuse in the positive line in the revised wiring directly from the positive battery terminal through a Toggle Switch to the PYO Clutch positive wire. Installed the ground wire to chassis.
Then, I gave the mower a test drive of leaf mulching for a period of 30 minutes (or more) and the PTO Clutch did NOT disconnect (turn off) even one time. Therefore, this is enough evidence (for me) to place the main original problem as being the PTO Switch.
This (modified wiring) of course does NOT require the ON/OFF switch to be ON in order to engage the PTO just by flipping the toggle switch ON. So, I plan to order a new PTO Switch and replace the defective switch and return the wiring to the original connection with the wiring Harness. I will (of course) keep the modified wiring and switch in case if needed in the future.
Thanks again to all that commented to help.
My Regards, Vern....
Good tip Bert....
Nice thing about all the electro-magnetic clutches is, most aren't rebuildable.
The several replies that referred to the PTO Switch potentially being the main source of the problem were completely correct in their Diagnostics and Opinion.
Today, I disconnected the connection from the wiring harness to the 2 wires that goes to the PTO Clutch. I Used an in-line fuse in the positive line in the revised wiring directly from the positive battery terminal through a Toggle Switch to the PYO Clutch positive wire. Installed the ground wire to chassis.
Then, I gave the mower a test drive of leaf mulching for a period of 30 minutes (or more) and the PTO Clutch did NOT disconnect (turn off) even one time. Therefore, this is enough evidence (for me) to place the main original problem as being the PTO Switch.
This (modified wiring) of course does NOT require the ON/OFF switch to be ON in order to engage the PTO just by flipping the toggle switch ON. So, I plan to order a new PTO Switch and replace the defective switch and return the wiring to the original connection with the wiring Harness. I will (of course) keep the modified wiring and switch in case if needed in the future.
Thanks again to all that commented to help.
My Regards, Vern....
#22
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Glad you got a result Vern.
Electrics seem to frighten most but you sound like you know your way round smoke.
Take your old switch with you when you get the new one if you can.
There is around 6 different variations, ignoring the colour of the switch itself which is just brand specific.
If the new switch has the same number & layout of pins it should be good but care must be taken.
Most of the wires are ground wires that go to the magneto so if it gets accidentally connect to battery power for the briefest period of time the magnetos will be fried.
On most the first 2 pair do all the work ( cranking & PTO switching ) & the rest are safety circuit ground wires
Electrics seem to frighten most but you sound like you know your way round smoke.
Take your old switch with you when you get the new one if you can.
There is around 6 different variations, ignoring the colour of the switch itself which is just brand specific.
If the new switch has the same number & layout of pins it should be good but care must be taken.
Most of the wires are ground wires that go to the magneto so if it gets accidentally connect to battery power for the briefest period of time the magnetos will be fried.
On most the first 2 pair do all the work ( cranking & PTO switching ) & the rest are safety circuit ground wires
#23
Padroo
Padroo
That is good news. You got 11 years out of that switch. I had to replace the one on my 14 year old TORO several years back and it's probably ready for another one. I think I got it from Amazon.
I always go to the parts manual and order it by that part number that is listed.
I always go to the parts manual and order it by that part number that is listed.
#24
V
vern66
I received and installed the new PTO Switch and unfortunately I have the same issue of the PTO Clutch dis-engaging.
So, I have decided to use the revised wiring as explained in a previous post that works perfectly without the dis-engaging problem.
However, instead of using the 12 volts direct from the battery (through a fuse) I will find a "hot 12 volt" source that is operational only after the Switch Key is turned on. The temporary "direct" wiring of course could accidently be activated with power to the clutch which is not desirable.
Thanks to all..... Vern....
V
vern66
That is good news. You got 11 years out of that switch. I had to replace the one on my 14 year old TORO several years back and it's probably ready for another one. I think I got it from Amazon.
I always go to the parts manual and order it by that part number that is listed.
I received and installed the new PTO Switch and unfortunately I have the same issue of the PTO Clutch dis-engaging.
So, I have decided to use the revised wiring as explained in a previous post that works perfectly without the dis-engaging problem.
However, instead of using the 12 volts direct from the battery (through a fuse) I will find a "hot 12 volt" source that is operational only after the Switch Key is turned on. The temporary "direct" wiring of course could accidently be activated with power to the clutch which is not desirable.
Thanks to all..... Vern....