422707-121401 sump gasket

[McTurff]

Couple questions:
Can you hold the carb linkage at idle and get a slow idle? (I'm talking about holding the carb shaft against the idle set screw)

Next: You mention that yours runs at high rpm even with the dash control set at slow. If so you have a throttle plate control problem instead of a governor problem.
In post #31 and 33 I posted that I my opposed twins will slow idle with the dash control set at slow and the governor not even needed. The governor arm is actually locked out mechanically and not even used at slow idle on mine,(cannot even move the governor arm with hand because it's locked mechanically at low idle) but does have a governored idle part way up on the dash throttle.

My engine model types and codes are as follows 422707 1263 01, code 9403105A and 42E707 2631 E1 code 9811235B and both use the same governor arm and throttle plate and springs.

Your engine shows on parts lists that it uses the same governor arm and throttle plate as my engines. (but Briggs does have other type throttle plates and governor arms for the opposed twins and they must be kept matched for correct mechanical governor/throttle operation)

Post up some good pictures of your governor arm and throttle plate. I see that Briggs has different type throttle plates and governor arms for the opposed twins is why I ask about pictures of yours.

Also post up close up pictures of yours throttle plate when at idle and also a full throttle.

I had the original carb on it when I first got it running but put another carb on
CHINA
I will take a look at it tomorrow I cleaned up the original carb to put back on i don't know if it is actually the right carb??
Anyway i will get some pics!
I do have another Briggs carburetor looks like it could work it is from a twin engine pretty sure it was an opposed twin!
It has #s on it so I should look and see if it will work on my engine!
I keep posting this
The engine runs wild with no springs or tension on governor
And I thought that would mean it is not functioning???
Should come to idle??
Thanks for more info and I will report!

 

[Forest#2]

You mentioned changing the carb. Not likely the carb with the symptoms you said.
Them Briggs twins only used two types of carbs a 3 screw and a 4 screw and this referred to the fuel pump on the front of the carb. Kit for the carb same for both, just had to get correct kit for the fuel pump. Not likely it's a carb issue because you say you changed carb's and symptoms same. Them carbs usually very reliable except the pump can become erratic from not being used and ethanol gas. Make sure the little dog leg linkage swivel connection behind the carb is allowing the linkages to swivel freely for the carb throttle plate carb shaft control.

My point being:
At first You are going to have to get the engine to idle slow without the governor control. You will never get governor speed control if the engine cannot be slow idled without the governor.
The first test is making sure it idles holding the carb shaft at idle against the idle set screw while the engine is running. This test is confirming that the throttle butterfly in the carb throat is closing or you do not have a bad air leak causing a high rpm and neither one is likely. (but this needs to be confirmed first)

Next is seeing that the on dash throttle lever brings the engine to idle with the engine not running. This can be see by watching the carb shaft going to or towards idle. (Without the governor arm even connected, just leave the governor arm completely loose on the shaft)

I suspect your engine speed issue is with the mechanical operation of the throttle plate not allowing lower rpm idle operation and the spring loaded governor lever arm cannot over ride such trying to slow the engine speed.

 

[bentrim]

If you can control the speed by moving the carb lever to touch the idle speed screw, you don't have a carb problem.
When starting and operating the engine the external governor arm should move the carburetor to idle and you will have to overcome the governor force to speed up the engine if the governor is functioning and adjusted properly. If you have no force trying to close the carb lever and moving the governor arm closed there are two choices, the governor gear is not turning or the governor is not adjusted properly.
By you video it appears as if the governor is turning as I see you have tested it with a wire and it was engaged to the cam gear, just as the case was closed.
Not trying to be a smart axx but just trying to help a fellow mechanic to overcome an aggitating issue. Wish you were next door I would gladly come over and see if we couldn't get it right.

 

[McTurff]

If you can control the speed by moving the carb lever to touch the idle speed screw, you don't have a carb problem.
When starting and operating the engine the external governor arm should move the carburetor to idle and you will have to overcome the governor force to speed up the engine if the governor is functioning and adjusted properly. If you have no force trying to close the carb lever and moving the governor arm closed there are two choices, the governor gear is not turning or the governor is not adjusted properly.
By you video it appears as if the governor is turning as I see you have tested it with a wire and it was engaged to the cam gear, just as the case was closed.
Not trying to be a smart axx but just trying to help a fellow mechanic to overcome an aggitating issue. Wish you were next door I would gladly come over and see if we couldn't get it right.

I'm trying to take all this info and apply it!
Yes wish I had a pair of knowlegable eyes to see what's up with this engine!
I think this is a good engine if I can figure it out!
I'll keep plugging at it!

 

[McTurff]

You mentioned changing the carb. Not likely the carb with the symptoms you said.
Them Briggs twins only used two types of carbs a 3 screw and a 4 screw and this referred to the fuel pump on the front of the carb. Kit for the carb same for both, just had to get correct kit for the fuel pump. Not likely it's a carb issue because you say you changed carb's and symptoms same. Them carbs usually very reliable except the pump can become erratic from not being used and ethanol gas. Make sure the little dog leg linkage swivel connection behind the carb is allowing the linkages to swivel freely for the carb throttle plate carb shaft control.

My point being:
At first You are going to have to get the engine to idle slow without the governor control. You will never get governor speed control if the engine cannot be slow idled without the governor.
The first test is making sure it idles holding the carb shaft at idle against the idle set screw while the engine is running. This test is confirming that the throttle butterfly in the carb throat is closing or you do not have a bad air leak causing a high rpm and neither one is likely. (but this needs to be confirmed first)

Next is seeing that the on dash throttle lever brings the engine to idle with the engine not running. This can be see by watching the carb shaft going to or towards idle. (Without the governor arm even connected, just leave the governor arm completely loose on the shaft)

I suspect your engine speed issue is with the mechanical operation of the throttle plate not allowing lower rpm idle operation and the spring loaded governor lever arm cannot over ride such trying to slow the engine speed.

I have done this
Wire on governor arm and I can close throttle plate to bring it to idle! When running!
The throttle control will not let it go to idle because of governor spring
From what I have read the throttle plate is always held at WOT

 

[McTurff]

I thin

If you can control the speed by moving the carb lever to touch the idle speed screw, you don't have a carb problem.
When starting and operating the engine the external governor arm should move the carburetor to idle and you will have to overcome the governor force to speed up the engine if the governor is functioning and adjusted properly. If you have no force trying to close the carb lever and moving the governor arm closed there are two choices, the governor gear is not turning or the governor is not adjusted properly.
By you video it appears as if the governor is turning as I see you have tested it with a wire and it was engaged to the cam gear, just as the case was closed.
Not trying to be a smart axx but just trying to help a fellow mechanic to overcome an aggitating issue. Wish you were next door I would gladly come over and see if we couldn't get it right.

Think I made some headway!
I hope i wasn't this dumb but I removed wire from dog leg to the adjustment screw this allowed the governor arm to travel further to counter-clockwise and hopefully closer to thimble for static adjustment!!
Start engine and the throttle plate is closing i think i tested twice and throttle plate was closed but still pretty high idle!!
Could be the China carb will put the original back on it has the bottom adjustment air fuel mixture screw! I cleaned it up on the motor and did a better cleaning on bench while it was off!
And the China carb dosnt allow the tab that meets adjustment screw from throttle plate to meet and it doesn't seem it could get close enough for any adjustment!
Looking at that wire or link it could be shortened if needed to bring the tab to idle screw?
Anyway maybe hope yet!

 

[Forest#2]

I suspected such.
Your low idle issue right now is with the mechanical linkages and not the engines governor. First: You are going to have to get the linkages to go to idle without the governor. Something is wrong not giving you complete low end idle travel as it should?????
You might try disconnecting the throttle cable from the throttle plate and move the linkage manually back and forth towards low idle with the governor disconnected or loose on the shaft.

Does your governor lever arm look like this one on ebay?
167257324217

 

[bentrim]

Lets try again -- one of these times you may just get it right! Hope you don't take this as I'm insulting you, as I said before just trying to help.
The governor spring always attempts to pull the throttle plate too wide open, whether the engine is running or not. In fact as the engine is shutting down you will see the throttle open. Sometime depending on the adjustment of the speed control to slow speed it may close the throttle when shut off, but not always, If equiped with a governed idle it will always pull to WOT when shut off.
The governor opposes the spring and balances the force the spring applies so the engine speed is controlled.
So when more pull is applied by the spring the faster the engine runs but it is also opposed by the governor to maintain the desired speed. When load increases on the engine the weights on the governor slow down and the spring overcomes the governor force and open the throttle plate. When the load is released the governor weights apply more force overcoming the spring and causes the throttle plate to close. This is how a governed engine maintains the desire speed.

Question 1. Does the arm try to close the throttle plate with the engine running?
Yes -- governor is functioning, spring may be hooked wrong or control may be bent pulling the spring too hard.
Remove the spring from governor arm and retest.
No -- Governor is not functioning or linkage is out of adjustment.
The weights "fly" out as speed increases pushing the thimble up, appling force to the internal part of the governor shaft,
rotating the shaft causing the governor arm to push the throttle plate closed.
No -- can equal one of two issues.
1 governor gear is not rotating, weights broke off gear, thimble missing or too tight on shaft. These you have proven to be good.
2 governor not adjusted properly. What and why? remember the worn spot on the internal lever? That has to be adjusted so it pushes the thimble into the weights and the weights are collapsed as small as they can be. So as soon as the engine starts the weights "fly" out applying pressure to the thimble, pushing against the lever, rotating the shaft, moving the lever, which close the throttle plate.
To adust -- Loosen pinchbolt, hold lever to full wide open throttle plate, turn shaft until it stops (collapses the weights and pushes the thimble down) If mmemory is any good you turn the shaft counter-clockwise or easy to remember it turns the same direction as the lever moves to wide open throttle.

 

[McTurff]

Ok

I thin
Think I made some headway!
I hope i wasn't this dumb but I removed wire from dog leg to the adjustment screw this allowed the governor arm to travel further to counter-clockwise and hopefully closer to thimble for static adjustment!!
Start engine and the throttle plate is closing i think i tested twice and throttle plate was closed but still pretty high idle!!
Could be the China carb will put the original back on it has the bottom adjustment air fuel mixture screw! I cleaned it up on the motor and did a better cleaning on bench while it was off!
And the China carb dosnt allow the tab that meets adjustment screw from throttle plate to meet and it doesn't seem it could get close enough for any adjustment!
Looking at that wire or link it could be shortened if needed to bring the tab to idle screw?
Anyway maybe hope yet!

Lets try again -- one of these times you may just get it right! Hope you don't take this as I'm insulting you, as I said before just trying to help.
The governor spring always attempts to pull the throttle plate too wide open, whether the engine is running or not. In fact as the engine is shutting down you will see the throttle open. Sometime depending on the adjustment of the speed control to slow speed it may close the throttle when shut off, but not always, If equiped with a governed idle it will always pull to WOT when shut off.
The governor opposes the spring and balances the force the spring applies so the engine speed is controlled.
So when more pull is applied by the spring the faster the engine runs but it is also opposed by the governor to maintain the desired speed. When load increases on the engine the weights on the governor slow down and the spring overcomes the governor force and open the throttle plate. When the load is released the governor weights apply more force overcoming the spring and causes the throttle plate to close. This is how a governed engine maintains the desire speed.

Question 1. Does the arm try to close the throttle plate with the engine running?
Yes -- governor is functioning, spring may be hooked wrong or control may be bent pulling the spring too hard.
Remove the spring from governor arm and retest.
No -- Governor is not functioning or linkage is out of adjustment.
The weights "fly" out as speed increases pushing the thimble up, appling force to the internal part of the governor shaft,
rotating the shaft causing the governor arm to push the throttle plate closed.
No -- can equal one of two issues.
1 governor gear is not rotating, weights broke off gear, thimble missing or too tight on shaft. These you have proven to be good.
2 governor not adjusted properly. What and why? remember the worn spot on the internal lever? That has to be adjusted so it pushes the thimble into the weights and the weights are collapsed as small as they can be. So as soon as the engine starts the weights "fly" out applying pressure to the thimble, pushing against the lever, rotating the shaft, moving the lever, which close the throttle plate.
To adust -- Loosen pinchbolt, hold lever to full wide open throttle plate, turn shaft until it stops (collapses the weights and pushes the thimble down) If mmemory is any good you turn the shaft counter-clockwise or easy to remember it turns the same direction as the lever moves to wide open throttle.

I got it
Its running rough with new carb
So need to adjust some things!
Maybe i can send a video of how it sounds??
I need to adjust spring to the tang and that is close to where it needs to be just a bit rough over all idle!

 

[bentrim]

Ok
I got it
Its running rough with new carb
So need to adjust some things!
Maybe i can send a video of how it sounds??

Wonderful Knew you could do it!