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Part of my yard is a 25 degree embankment. It has always been a challenge to mow. Twelve years ago I tried to use a lawn tractor. It would climb the embankment fine, but with the engine in front, it would slide down with one wheel going forward and the other spinning backward. Then I tried a Dixon ZTR. With the rear engine, it would also climb ok, but going down was frightening. It seemed like it would almost freewheel. I had to hold the lap bars slightly in reverse to keep it from running away. And I had virtually no steering control. So for years I have been mowing with a rear engine Snapper rider with aftermarket aggressive tires. It works ok, but when going uphill, the unweighted front end gives me very little steering control.

Now I have learned that Cub Cadet has recently released a new residential zero turn model (RZT-S) with steerable front wheels. The literature indicates that it might be just what I need. But since it still uses hydraulic drive like the Dixon, I have concerns (and three questions).

1. If I release the "drive" pedal (which controls the swash plate), will the mower stop when going downhill? Or will it freewheel like the old Dixon? In other words, will the EZT transaxle design allow the wheels to turn the hydraulic motor and push oil through the system even though the pump swash plate is in "neutral", allowing the mower to roll downhill?

2. Is the EZT transaxle robust enough to withstand mowing a 25 degree embankment on a periodic basis? The slope is only about 3600 sq ft and mowed every two weeks in the summer. And because of safety concerns, I always go very slow. I assume that going slow puts less stress on the transaxle.

3. Since the dual EZT transaxles do not act like a typical differential, am I correct in thinking that I should get better traction going both up AND down the slope? If I loose traction with one tire on my Snapper, the drive force (or braking force) of the other tire is severely impaired. I frequently skid down the slope with one tire spinning backwards and the other freewheeling. But since the EZT transaxles are separate units, I would expect to have "independent" traction with each tire.

Thanks for any insight that the forum can provide.

I have a 25 degree slope in my front yard. I moved into my house a few months ago and mowing has proven to be a little dangerous. I have been looking at the same cub cadet as you to solve the problem. I just don't want to buy it if it won't work. It is rated for a 15 degree slope which is what most riding mowers are rated at. I think it might just be a liability issue to rate it for a steeper hill. Please let me know if you find anything out about this mower and it's ability on steep slopes.

The RZT-S is not going to solve your problem. To begin with you are mowing the wrong direction, you always mow across the face slope rather than up and down. Slope mowing with any mower and a especially a ZTR should be done from the bottom of the hill up always turning the mower up the hill at the end of each pass, if you turn down hill with any ZTR you'll lose control of the mower especially on a 25 degree embankment.

The RZT-S has all wheel steering which would give the rider more control down hill. The front wheels are not the traditional caster style wheels that are the cause for people losing control downhill on ZTR's. That is the only reason I was looking at this mower.

Borbis51 said:

The RZT-S has all wheel steering which would give the rider more control down hill. The front wheels are not the traditional caster style wheels that are the cause for people losing control downhill on ZTR's. That is the only reason I was looking at this mower.

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My point would be that there is nothing you can do with the S model that can't be done with the traditional ZTR if it's used correctly. If the all wheel steering is so great and gives you more control and is so much better than the Traditional ZTR what happened to the Cub Cadet I series zero turn lawn tractor? It worked the same way. Why doesn't Cub Cadet offer that model anymore?

Ric:

I don't know why Cub Cadet got rid of the I series. Then again, I don't know why the Dolorian was discontinued either What I do know, is that a ZTR is dangerous on hills because it steers with the rear wheels. This makes it difficult to maintain control when going downhill. When ZTR's came out, the number of mowing deaths went up quite significantly.

When it comes to the RZT-S, the front wheels having steering capability should make it safer to operate down hill. Do you disagree? I am not saying that a RZT-S will do a better job mowing grass, I am just looking for a mower I can use on my slope without killing myself.

Check out what consumer reports had to say about ZTR and hills.

Hills pose risks for some lawn tractors and riders

Borbis51 said:

Ric:

I don't know why Cub Cadet got rid of the I series. Then again, I don't know why the Dolorian was discontinued either What I do know, is that a ZTR is dangerous on hills because it steers with the rear wheels. This makes it difficult to maintain control when going downhill. When ZTR's came out, the number of mowing deaths went up quite significantly.

When it comes to the RZT-S, the front wheels having steering capability should make it safer to operate down hill. Do you disagree? I am not saying that a RZT-S will do a better job mowing grass, I am just looking for a mower I can use on my slope without killing myself.

Check out what consumer reports had to say about ZTR and hills.

Hills pose risks for some lawn tractors and riders

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Read what your consumer link said and how they tested the ZTR and Tractors on hills and I agree with there test even though it's bogus because the test they did and provided to the public in that link goes strictly against what the manufacturer states for safe operation. To do a test totally wrong and against manufacturers safe operation practices is pardon me but stupid.

You ask When it comes to the RZT-S, the front wheels having steering capability should make it safer to operate down hill. Do you disagree? YES I dis-agree because I'll bet you'll find the following statement in the manual for the S model also.

Any and all Manufacturer Manuals I've ever seen state always mow across the face of slope rather than up and down. When you mow up and down a hill you are mowing the wrong direction.

You say that a ZTR is dangerous on hills because it steers with the rear wheels and it makes it difficult to maintain control when going downhill. I agree with that statement to a point. They become dangerous when people fail to read the Owners Manual and do what it says and think they know more than the manufacturer does and then they get hurt and wonder why.

Any Zero Turn Rider on slopes when used correctly is perfectly safe.

When it comes to mowing on a slope I really don't know what I am doing, and that is why I am on here. I have been mowing with a 21 inch self-propelled mower going across (I have a 1 acre yard). I had a garden tractor but it was way to dangerous. I knew I would eventually push the limit and get hurt, so I got rid of it. I think going from side to side with a ZTR on a 25 degree slope would be too dangerous. The guy that use to live in my house used a commercial ZTR and mowed up the hill at an angle. He then went to the other side of the yard to a flatter section and mowed back up. That might be the only way.

As for the testing, yes, I am sure they tested against what the manufacturer suggested. They probably do that because people never seem to follow their recommendations or use common sense.
I agree that they need to be used correctly, but can a ZTR be used correctly on such a steep hill? I am sure you will not find a ZTR that says it is rated for a 25 degree slope.

I am off to a Cub Cadet dealer tomorrow to talk to them.

Wow! I'm glad that someone finally took an interest in my thread, but I'm not learning a lot yet. Because of retaining walls and obstacles, I CANNOT mow across my slope. I HAVE to mow up and down. I'm sure the manufacturers specify sideways mowing to minimize rollovers, but they also say NEVER to mow a slope that you cannot back up in reverse. Well you're not going to back up my slope with anything less than a four wheel drive mower (which is out of my budget) and I refuse to weed-eat 3600 sq. ft.

As I mentioned in the initial post, I have been successfully mowing the slope, up and down, for 12 years with a 42" rear engine Snapper rider. I am always extremely careful and have learned to NEVER EVER touch the clutch going uphill. If I lose traction, I turn off the key, and then gradually ease the mower back down the hill.

But I would expect that a RZT-S would mow the slope at least as well as the Snapper and hopefully better. Both are rear engine for traction, but the Cub should be better because the rear wheels have independent traction not a differential like the Snapper. Also, the Cub should steer more reliably than the Snapper since it gets assist from the rear wheels.

My main question is "Will the RZT-S (or any ZTR that uses the HydroGear EZT transmissions) stop while going downhill if I release the "drive" pedal"? Or will it try to run away with me like the old Dixon ZTR did when I tried it 12 years ago? When I look at the HydroGear design on their website, it appears that the wheels should stop. When the "drive" pedal is released, the swash plate goes to neutral so that the hydraulic pump stops pumping. The only way that the mower could move is if the torque on the rear wheels is able to turn the hydraulic motor into a "pump" which would then push the oil through the hydraulic pump. But with the pump in neutral, I don't see a way for the oil to move from one side of the pump to the other ... the pump pistons are not moving up and down when the swash plate is in neutral.

Anyway, I realize that I am exceeding the manufacturer's recommendation when I mow a slope this steep, but I'm able to do it now with the Snapper, I just want a safer solution. Even though they use a different transmission, can anyone with a Z Force S or a Tank SZ tell me if their machine will stop on a downhill?

I have mowed for a living for 15 years and I mow hills alot. I still mow hill you guys prob think impossible. I'll try amd take some pics. At my work we have had 3 mowers roll over.scary stuff. Same guy did it twice. Hasn't happened in over 14 years.

That said I won't go on any steep hill on a ZT. Front mounts are much better suited. Especially the 4wd models.
I'd look for a used one. There are some groundsmasters on my local Craig list for decent price.

texhobbit said:

Anyway, I realize that I am exceeding the manufacturer's recommendation when I mow a slope this steep, but I'm able to do it now with the Snapper, I just want a safer solution. Even though they use a different transmission, can anyone with a Z Force S or a Tank SZ tell me if their machine will stop on a downhill?

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People may think I'm crazy but if you're looking for a safer solution and you like the Cab Cadets have you thought about there walk behind mowers. Something like the G 1336 or the G 1548 Walk Behind mowers something in that category. Just a suggestion.

I am sure this will not help much because I have to believe in all the time you have mowed this slope you have tried it... On the steeper part of my hill, I can easily drive up the hill, stoping ,starting and making turns (no more that 45 deg) and then I back down the hill. So I drive to the top and then turn the mower so that I come back down offset by 30 inches or so. This part of my slope is maybe 20 degrees. I can easily drive across it as long as I point the mower at like 40 degrees. I then either come back down it backwards or even turn the mower to point down and just let it go unto it levels out. the disclaimer is I dont have an acre of this ... anyway like I said I have to believe you have tried it. Also just in case you havent, be very light on the sticks when you stop and take off again. I can easily lift the front wheels a foot by hitting it full on. Also the other thing I did was to put snappers hig traction wheel kit(the tires looked like almost paddle tires with v ribs) on my mower from the start. This cured most of my slipage. Also there is another thread on this forum where the gentleman bought the RZT-S and claimed it worked very well on slopes. I am about to find out how well my country clipper I bought does on my same hill. I have a feeling I will be looking for similiar tires to the old snapper traction kit for it.

one other point I had meant to make is... while reading the engine manual for my new mower it made a point of stating the limit of the engine to handle a slope is 15 degrees. Which I take to mean it would suffer oil starvation.

txzrider said:

one other point I had meant to make is... while reading the engine manual for my new mower it made a point of stating the limit of the engine to handle a slope is 15 degrees. Which I take to mean it would suffer oil starvation.

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Thanks for the input txzrider. I have always felt very uncomfortable backing down the slope. The Snapper front wheels have very little weight on them and steering is a problem. I feel pretty safe driving down forward because steering is good, but sometimes I go faster than I want and dig up grass because of slippage.

When I bought the Snapper years ago, I made sure it had an oil pump and was not just splash lubricated. So far I have had no oil related engine problems. I have no reason to believe that the RZT engines will be different since they also have an oil pump (but you have a good point).

My B&S on my new mower says it is lubricated as well, however it still says the limit is 15 degrees. that being said I mowed with the previous splash lubed 13hp brigs for 12 years on the same hill.

txzrider said:

I am sure this will not help much because I have to believe in all the time you have mowed this slope you have tried it... On the steeper part of my hill, I can easily drive up the hill, stoping ,starting and making turns (no more that 45 deg) and then I back down the hill. So I drive to the top and then turn the mower so that I come back down offset by 30 inches or so. This part of my slope is maybe 20 degrees. I can easily drive across it as long as I point the mower at like 40 degrees. I then either come back down it backwards or even turn the mower to point down and just let it go unto it levels out. the disclaimer is I dont have an acre of this ... anyway like I said I have to believe you have tried it. Also just in case you havent, be very light on the sticks when you stop and take off again. I can easily lift the front wheels a foot by hitting it full on. Also the other thing I did was to put snappers hig traction wheel kit(the tires looked like almost paddle tires with v ribs) on my mower from the start. This cured most of my slipage. Also there is another thread on this forum where the gentleman bought the RZT-S and claimed it worked very well on slopes. I am about to find out how well my country clipper I bought does on my same hill. I have a feeling I will be looking for similiar tires to the old snapper traction kit for it.

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txzrider

Which Country Clipper did you buy, what model?

jazzee one 20hp 38inch deck. I had a need to go though a gate. I really had thought I would go larger and just rebuild the gate. Instead this seemed like a good deal. only 27 hours on a less that 1 year old new mower. Showed up on craigslist just as I was about to call the dealer to have him make the one he had ready for me to pickup. About 1200 less than a new one and 700 less than the best deal I could find on a new unsold last years model(with no tax to boot). And it works great on my slope, it must be better balanced, because it has less tendenancy to want to turn down the slope. After 15 years with a 33 inch deck I really was bound and determined to go 42 or possibly even 50. So far the only thing I noticed is it is built much stronger than the snapper. The joystick is a little twitchey(for lack of a better word) which I attribute to being a taller stick since it is almost twice the height of the one on the snapper.

I thought at one time about buying a Country Clipper but the nearest dealer is like 70 miles away and I didn't like the thought of running that distance if something went wrong, that was one of the reasons I purchased the Cub Cadet. The CC dealer is 5 miles down the road.
I hope if Texhobbit buys that S he gets the 22 HP Cub Cadet with Kohler Courage.

I am curious as to why you are suggesting the smaller motor for texhobbit. If my dealer were 70 miles away I prob would have bought something else. however honestly I do 99% of my own maintenance. oil changes, greasing the various grease fittings, replacing belts and even spindles are not hard. With the deck on the Country Clipper I expect that to be even easier. If it does at least as well as the Snapper I had life will be good.

Ric, I'm also curious why you are promoting the 22 hp Kohler. When I compare the three RZT-S models on the Cub Cadet website, they all appear to have the Courage 725cc engine but the hp varies. The 42" cut has a 22 hp engine. The 46" cut has a 23hp engine. And the 50" has a 25hp engine. So I wonder if the engines are in fact basically the same, and what they are doing to increase the hp for the bigger mowers.

So Ric, why do you like the 22 hp Courage over the more powerful engines?

texhobbit said:

Ric, I'm also curious why you are promoting the 22 hp Kohler. When I compare the three RZT-S models on the Cub Cadet website, they all appear to have the Courage 725cc engine but the hp varies. The 42" cut has a 22 hp engine. The 46" cut has a 23hp engine. And the 50" has a 25hp engine. So I wonder if the engines are in fact basically the same, and what they are doing to increase the hp for the bigger mowers.

So Ric, why do you like the 22 hp Courage over the more powerful engines?

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For one I don't believe the RZT-S is going to solve your problem as I said before. I feel like the only one of the three that you would have any chance with for the application you describe would be the 22 HP.
I'm not promoting the 22 hp Kohler but I've said for a long time that when people buy mowers they do not do the research they need to do before making a purchase. To many people buy a lawn mower based on engine size and name on the mower which IMO is crazy. Out of the three mowers you mentioned which are you buying?
Personally I run two Kohler Courage Motors, a 20 and 22 HP and I've had real good luck with the Kohler motors but the type of motor doesn't concern me as much as the HP rating.

txzrider said:

I am curious as to why you are suggesting the smaller motor for texhobbit. If my dealer were 70 miles away I prob would have bought something else. however honestly I do 99% of my own maintenance. oil changes, greasing the various grease fittings, replacing belts and even spindles are not hard. With the deck on the Country Clipper I expect that to be even easier. If it does at least as well as the Snapper I had life will be good.

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I suggested the smaller motor because I think it's the only one out of the three that would stand a chance of holding up on the RZT-S. People need to do the research and if they did they wouldn't have the problems they have.
The Rzt-S comes with the 22, 23 and 25 hp motors all with the EZT transmissions, if you do a little research you'll find that the EZT Dual Hydro gear transmission is rated for a motor of between 18 and 22 hp with a maximum tire size of 18 inch. http://www.hydro-gear.com/Main/products/hydrostatic-drives/single-axle-transaxles/EZT
That tells me that the RZT with the 22 HP is running at it's max and the others are beyond there Max and that's why people have the Transmission problems the have , they just don't hold up well and if you consider TexHobbit is going to mow a 25 degree embankment what do you think his chances are that the rzt is going to last.

Ric, I did notice that the EZT transaxles were rated for a max of 22 hp, and since my current mower is a 42" cut, I was just going to get another one that size. With zero turn, I should still reduce my mowing time, and I think I want to minimize the mower weight since that's a lot of heft to shove up my embankment. If I go slow on the steep parts that should ease the load on the transaxles a bit.

I still would like to know if the EZT transaxles will freewheel or "park" when I release the drive pedal. I may have to go by the local lawn and garden to see if they have one in stock I can test.

none of the zero turns I have driven do that... all will roll back down the hill unless you engage the parking brake.

texhobbit said:

Ric, I did notice that the EZT transaxles were rated for a max of 22 hp, and since my current mower is a 42" cut, I was just going to get another one that size. With zero turn, I should still reduce my mowing time, and I think I want to minimize the mower weight since that's a lot of heft to shove up my embankment. If I go slow on the steep parts that should ease the load on the transaxles a bit.

I still would like to know if the EZT transaxles will freewheel or "park" when I release the drive pedal. I may have to go by the local lawn and garden to see if they have one in stock I can test.

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I didn't say you were not aware of the rating of the EZT drives, I was asked why I said I wouldn't go any larger than the 22 hp and I explained why. As you say and I agree with you, you should be able too reduce your mowing time but as far as the weight of the mower goes there's not that much difference between the S and my ZTR's
My Z force mowers both run the 2800 drives and I can tell you from experience that on slopes of that degree my 2800's labor badly, I can only imagine what an EZT would do.
I agree with txrider none of the zero turns I have driven will do what you're asking unless you engage the parking brake, all will freewheel.
I would suggest you read some of the other threads here, like the most recent about the EZT drives, threads like the following appear frequently about the EZT Transmission.

rtz50 hydraulics

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a 42RZT_S last August (2012). So far I am completely happy with the mower. It WILL mow up and down a 25 degree slope with the stock tires (much better than the Snapper rider I had been using). If the drive pedal is released on the downhill, the mower will creap downhill fairly slowly. If the grass is damp, the mower might slide, but I can guide it in the direction I want using the steering. All in all, I think that the RZT-S is a great improvement to my old Snapper as it is MUCH safer. I highly recommend it for folks with steep yards.

One thing that I have noticed ... Even though it is a true zero turn mower, I cannot mow closely around small obstacles such as trees or posts. The rear wheel will hit the tree. The outside of the wheel (on the 42") is about even with the edge of the mower deck so it just cannot zero turn around a tree without the wheel hitting it. I don't know if this is still the case with a larger mower deck, but it is with the 42".

But my main point was that the RZT-S WILL work on slopes ... even slopes way steeper than the 15 degrees or so in the owners manual. And I find it WAY safer than the Snapper.

So I'm a very happy owner (so long as the transmission is durable enough to take the slope abuse over time).

texhobbit said:

Well, I bit the bullet and bought a 42RZT_S last August (2012). So far I am completely happy with the mower. It WILL mow up and down a 25 degree slope with the stock tires (much better than the Snapper rider I had been using). If the drive pedal is released on the downhill, the mower will creap downhill fairly slowly. If the grass is damp, the mower might slide, but I can guide it in the direction I want using the steering. All in all, I think that the RZT-S is a great improvement to my old Snapper as it is MUCH safer. I highly recommend it for folks with steep yards.

One thing that I have noticed ... Even though it is a true zero turn mower, I cannot mow closely around small obstacles such as trees or posts. The rear wheel will hit the tree. The outside of the wheel (on the 42") is about even with the edge of the mower deck so it just cannot zero turn around a tree without the wheel hitting it. I don't know if this is still the case with a larger mower deck, but it is with the 42".

But my main point was that the RZT-S WILL work on slopes ... even slopes way steeper than the 15 degrees or so in the owners manual. And I find it WAY safer than the Snapper.

So I'm a very happy owner (so long as the transmission is durable enough to take the slope abuse over time).

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I'm glad you are happy with your decision!