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Why did old mower engines run for years with no oil filters?
#1
G
gladiator801
G
gladiator801
I was reading on mower maintaince oil and filter changes how important oil filter changes were, but what about the old kohler and briggs motors that had no oil filters and ran for years, most of the time lasting longer than most newer motors do with filters. I have a 30 year old 16 hp kohler magnum without an oil filter with over 3300 hours on it and only repaire were fuel pump and main seal. The old motors were built heavier most cast iron rather than aluminum , and lasted much longer even without a filter or oil pump. The overhead valve motors have to have oil pump to lube the valves, but it is still amazing the old motors run so long with splash lube.
#2
S
SidecarFlip
S
SidecarFlip
That is something to ponder and I too have an older Kohler K241 cast iron engine on my Lincoln welder that has no oil filter and many running hours as well. I personally think the older motors were built stronger and better and overbuilt means no need for oil filters. Not all OHV or OHC small engines have oil pumps either. Honda GC motors have no oil pump, neither to the Predator (Lifan) OHV small motors. I don't believe any of them are built to last years like the older engines were.
I sure like the sound of a Kohler K Series motor idling. Something sweet about that sound of the balancer shaft spinning inside the case that is music to my ears. That and the big bore carb sucking in air.
I sure like the sound of a Kohler K Series motor idling. Something sweet about that sound of the balancer shaft spinning inside the case that is music to my ears. That and the big bore carb sucking in air.
#3
B
bertsmobile1
IT is a product capitalist free market system.
Because the buying public are ignorant & cheap in place of being well informed & educated just about the sole selling criteria is price.
So every year most products get cheaper.
The "Magic Pudding" is a children's story so you can not have products dropping in price like a stone while inflation is decreasing the buying power of your dollars and quality improving.
Higher levels of technology means that design engineers can make products that are just good enough to do the job , no more.
Things that allow engines to virtually run forever like roller & ball bearings or replaceable bushes cost a lot of money so if the market is too cheap to pay for them then any company that insists of building a top quality product will go broke.
If you look at the history of small engines, that is exactly what happens. The companies that went to the wall first were the ones that made top quality products while the companies that made the cheapest product thrived.
Tecumseh is a perfect example, the worst built cheapest piece of gear it was possible to sell so they sold in the billions, till some one ( Chinese companies ) hit the market with a cheaper engine.
And yes, older engines were over engineered because it was cheaper to do that than to make 2000 variations and test them to destruction.
Now we have computer modeling so I can make virtual rockers thinner & thinner till they fail in the virtual engine before I commit a design to metal.
Twenty years ago you needed 2 strong men to pull that engine off your welder. now days you can lift off an equivalent Hp engine with what's in your undies.
The modern engine also use less fuel per Hp and put out cleaner exhausts.
As a person who studied an engineering science and an enviromentally concerned human I would be over the moon if the moron masses started purchasing based on quality & longevity, rather than lazyness, sex appeal & price.
Europe has already started on this path but if any USA government put a reverse sales tax on products starting at 100% of the purchase price and decreasing 5 % for every year of service life then all of you 2nd amendment gun toters would be out in the streets & cemataries would be full of dead politicans.
However that is just about the only way you can force the market to behave in a rational mannar.
B
bertsmobile1
That is something to ponder and I too have an older Kohler K241 cast iron engine on my Lincoln welder that has no oil filter and many running hours as well. I personally think the older motors were built stronger and better and overbuilt means no need for oil filters. Not all OHV or OHC small engines have oil pumps either. Honda GC motors have no oil pump, neither to the Predator (Lifan) OHV small motors. I don't believe any of them are built to last years like the older engines were.
I sure like the sound of a Kohler K Series motor idling. Something sweet about that sound of the balancer shaft spinning inside the case that is music to my ears. That and the big bore carb sucking in air.
IT is a product capitalist free market system.
Because the buying public are ignorant & cheap in place of being well informed & educated just about the sole selling criteria is price.
So every year most products get cheaper.
The "Magic Pudding" is a children's story so you can not have products dropping in price like a stone while inflation is decreasing the buying power of your dollars and quality improving.
Higher levels of technology means that design engineers can make products that are just good enough to do the job , no more.
Things that allow engines to virtually run forever like roller & ball bearings or replaceable bushes cost a lot of money so if the market is too cheap to pay for them then any company that insists of building a top quality product will go broke.
If you look at the history of small engines, that is exactly what happens. The companies that went to the wall first were the ones that made top quality products while the companies that made the cheapest product thrived.
Tecumseh is a perfect example, the worst built cheapest piece of gear it was possible to sell so they sold in the billions, till some one ( Chinese companies ) hit the market with a cheaper engine.
And yes, older engines were over engineered because it was cheaper to do that than to make 2000 variations and test them to destruction.
Now we have computer modeling so I can make virtual rockers thinner & thinner till they fail in the virtual engine before I commit a design to metal.
Twenty years ago you needed 2 strong men to pull that engine off your welder. now days you can lift off an equivalent Hp engine with what's in your undies.
The modern engine also use less fuel per Hp and put out cleaner exhausts.
As a person who studied an engineering science and an enviromentally concerned human I would be over the moon if the moron masses started purchasing based on quality & longevity, rather than lazyness, sex appeal & price.
Europe has already started on this path but if any USA government put a reverse sales tax on products starting at 100% of the purchase price and decreasing 5 % for every year of service life then all of you 2nd amendment gun toters would be out in the streets & cemataries would be full of dead politicans.
However that is just about the only way you can force the market to behave in a rational mannar.
#4
S
SidecarFlip
S
SidecarFlip
Right on all counts. The K241 is very heavy, all cast iron except the head and it's the only aluminum on the engine with real bearings and hardened gears. A real carb that you can adjust as well. No pressure die cast thinwall aluminum pot metal in that motor. I expect it to be around for another 50 years after I'm gone....at least with minimal care.
The Kohlers made today and that engine really have nothing in common except the name.
I chuckle about the newest Briggs no oil change motor. Obviously it is designed to last one oil fill and that is all it's good for. Good landfill material. Someone made a comment about it was a technological breakthrough and I countered it wasn't, just pre-planned obsolesence, nothing more.
The Kohlers made today and that engine really have nothing in common except the name.
I chuckle about the newest Briggs no oil change motor. Obviously it is designed to last one oil fill and that is all it's good for. Good landfill material. Someone made a comment about it was a technological breakthrough and I countered it wasn't, just pre-planned obsolesence, nothing more.
#5
7394
It was, they realized they will sell more mowers / engines with the disposable units.
7394
I chuckle about the newest Briggs no oil change motor. Obviously it is designed to last one oil fill and that is all it's good for. Good landfill material. Someone made a comment about it was a technological breakthrough and I countered it wasn't, just pre-planned obsolesence, nothing more.
It was, they realized they will sell more mowers / engines with the disposable units.
#6
J
Johnbt
J
Johnbt
"...all of you 5th amendment gun toters..."
Typo there, it's the 2nd. The 5th is about...
"The Fifth Amendment imposes restrictions on the government's prosecution of persons accused of crimes. It prohibits self-incrimination and double jeopardy and mandates due process of law."
Interesting isn't it, that the Founders put the right to be armed in 2nd place in the Bill of Rights.
__________
Meanwhile, I have no idea about early mowers and oil filters, but early automobiles in the U.S. did not have oil filters and there were still some made without filters up into at least the 1950s. In my experience in the '50s and '60s they probably leaked and burned enough oil that there was a steady supply of new oil being poured into them. When I started driving the roads were really slick with a layer of oil when it rained. That's not so much of a problem now, except maybe for motorcyclists.
Okay, here're some quotes from a quick google search.
"Many successful and popular engine designs (VW, FIAT) did not use any oil filters until 1970's."
"The first use of a full flow oil filter on mass production vehicles occurred in 1946."
And even more than I wanted to know this early in the morning (it's 4:55 a.m. and I'm going fishing)...
"Ernest Sweetland and George Greenhalgh invented the modern oil filter in 1923, they were granted a patent in 1929 and named the new product "Purolator" - a combination of the words: "PURE OIL LATER.""
Typo there, it's the 2nd. The 5th is about...
"The Fifth Amendment imposes restrictions on the government's prosecution of persons accused of crimes. It prohibits self-incrimination and double jeopardy and mandates due process of law."
Interesting isn't it, that the Founders put the right to be armed in 2nd place in the Bill of Rights.
__________
Meanwhile, I have no idea about early mowers and oil filters, but early automobiles in the U.S. did not have oil filters and there were still some made without filters up into at least the 1950s. In my experience in the '50s and '60s they probably leaked and burned enough oil that there was a steady supply of new oil being poured into them. When I started driving the roads were really slick with a layer of oil when it rained. That's not so much of a problem now, except maybe for motorcyclists.
Okay, here're some quotes from a quick google search.
"Many successful and popular engine designs (VW, FIAT) did not use any oil filters until 1970's."
"The first use of a full flow oil filter on mass production vehicles occurred in 1946."
And even more than I wanted to know this early in the morning (it's 4:55 a.m. and I'm going fishing)...
"Ernest Sweetland and George Greenhalgh invented the modern oil filter in 1923, they were granted a patent in 1929 and named the new product "Purolator" - a combination of the words: "PURE OIL LATER.""
#7
B
bertsmobile1
Thank you for the correction, the post has been amended.
And no surprise that the right to participate in an armed militia was written in early , The USA was a big , fairly empty country.
As for oil filters, they have been around almost from the very start.
What was new was remote removable oil filter.
Vehicles back as far as 1900 used a full flow centrifugal oil filter within the crankshaft commonly called a sludge trap.
And sludge traps are a better filter than most modern spin ons , except that are a bugger to clean.
B
bertsmobile1
"...all of you 5th amendment gun toters..."
Typo there, it's the 2nd. The 5th is about...
"The Fifth Amendment imposes restrictions on the government's prosecution of persons accused of crimes. It prohibits self-incrimination and double jeopardy and mandates due process of law."
Interesting isn't it, that the Founders put the right to be armed in 2nd place in the Bill of Rights.
__________
Meanwhile, I have no idea about early mowers and oil filters, but early automobiles in the U.S. did not have oil filters and there were still some made without filters up into at least the 1950s. In my experience in the '50s and '60s they probably leaked and burned enough oil that there was a steady supply of new oil being poured into them. When I started driving the roads were really slick with a layer of oil when it rained. That's not so much of a problem now, except maybe for motorcyclists.
Okay, here're some quotes from a quick google search.
"Many successful and popular engine designs (VW, FIAT) did not use any oil filters until 1970's."
"The first use of a full flow oil filter on mass production vehicles occurred in 1946."
And even more than I wanted to know this early in the morning (it's 4:55 a.m. and I'm going fishing)...
"Ernest Sweetland and George Greenhalgh invented the modern oil filter in 1923, they were granted a patent in 1929 and named the new product "Purolator" - a combination of the words: "PURE OIL LATER.""
Thank you for the correction, the post has been amended.
And no surprise that the right to participate in an armed militia was written in early , The USA was a big , fairly empty country.
As for oil filters, they have been around almost from the very start.
What was new was remote removable oil filter.
Vehicles back as far as 1900 used a full flow centrifugal oil filter within the crankshaft commonly called a sludge trap.
And sludge traps are a better filter than most modern spin ons , except that are a bugger to clean.
#8
G
gladiator801
G
gladiator801
I am sure that the no oil change briggs will sell well because you will need a new one every couple of years. Then there is the new John Deere filter oil change system, you do not need to drain the oil you just change the filter that has some new oil in it and leave the rest of the dirty oil in the motor. I wonder how long those motors will run?
#10
D
deriter
D
deriter
I knew a guy once that claimed you did not need to change the oil in your car, just change the oil filter. He claimed oil did not wear out, just gets dirty. I said how's that working for you? Is the oil black. He said not it just gets kind of a light brown tint, but does not get black like you would think. He said that you are rplacing 1 quart of oil each time you change the filter. And the filter is cleaning what is left. He did not own new vehicles. They were usually high mileage stuff. Haven't talked to him for a few years so don't know how that is working for him.
#11
cpurvis
cpurvis
Kind of hard to put an oil filter on a splash lube engine.
#12
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Those no oil change engines have been around about 10 years or so I think..... I commented 1 time on here about that and someone thought I was crazy and wanted proof of what I said in the comment..... The person said he had been working on B&S engines for a long time and owned a repair shop..... Go figure .....
Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Right on all counts. The K241 is very heavy, all cast iron except the head and it's the only aluminum on the engine with real bearings and hardened gears. A real carb that you can adjust as well. No pressure die cast thinwall aluminum pot metal in that motor. I expect it to be around for another 50 years after I'm gone....at least with minimal care.
The Kohlers made today and that engine really have nothing in common except the name.
I chuckle about the newest Briggs no oil change motor. Obviously it is designed to last one oil fill and that is all it's good for. Good landfill material. Someone made a comment about it was a technological breakthrough and I countered it wasn't, just pre-planned obsolesence, nothing more.
Those no oil change engines have been around about 10 years or so I think..... I commented 1 time on here about that and someone thought I was crazy and wanted proof of what I said in the comment..... The person said he had been working on B&S engines for a long time and owned a repair shop..... Go figure .....
Plus Tard Mes Amies ~!~!
#13
I
ILENGINE
Back 30 or 40 years ago, people would buy a new push mower never change the oil in the engine, just add as needed, and the deck would rot away and crack making the mower unusable long before the engine gave up the ghost. The new no oil change engines will happen the same way. the deck will be long gone before the engine is ready to retire. Or at least for the average person. Remember this is a engine designed to last about 10-12 years under what is considered average annual use. For some that may be 10 years, for others that may only be 3 years, but the same person is probably changing mower about that average anyway with or without the oil changed.
I
ILENGINE
Right on all counts. The K241 is very heavy, all cast iron except the head and it's the only aluminum on the engine with real bearings and hardened gears. A real carb that you can adjust as well. No pressure die cast thinwall aluminum pot metal in that motor. I expect it to be around for another 50 years after I'm gone....at least with minimal care.
The Kohlers made today and that engine really have nothing in common except the name.
I chuckle about the newest Briggs no oil change motor. Obviously it is designed to last one oil fill and that is all it's good for. Good landfill material. Someone made a comment about it was a technological breakthrough and I countered it wasn't, just pre-planned obsolesence, nothing more.
Back 30 or 40 years ago, people would buy a new push mower never change the oil in the engine, just add as needed, and the deck would rot away and crack making the mower unusable long before the engine gave up the ghost. The new no oil change engines will happen the same way. the deck will be long gone before the engine is ready to retire. Or at least for the average person. Remember this is a engine designed to last about 10-12 years under what is considered average annual use. For some that may be 10 years, for others that may only be 3 years, but the same person is probably changing mower about that average anyway with or without the oil changed.
#14
A
(Account Closed)
A
(Account Closed)
A John Deere with No oil changes?? Duh, (and BS engineering)... I'd be putting my oil vacuum pump hose down the dip stick hole and sucking it all out as needed..
Agreed, the older engines, cast iron sleeves, roller bearings, etc, splash lubrication lasted very long. Keep it simple, less stuff to break/fail.
Newer engines, some corners are cut, but for instance, OHV's, over head cams, IS an improvement in performance, fuel use, heat dissipation, etc (like a flat head Ford vs an OHC newer car engine).
I've never had a yard machine with an oil filter/oil pump and when the oil looks darker, it gets changed. For my 10 HP Briggs generator (OHV, tilted cylinder, splash oil system), I use full synthetic 10w50 (SW Florida-so when used, it's hot and will run for days).
IMO, MAINTAINANCE is the key. Regular oil changes, fresh fuel, draining the bowl (for extended non-use) will extend the life of any machine.
I'm on my second Snapper walk behind (self propelled) since 1985. This current engine, 7 HP, OHV (considered commercial NOW) is about 11 years old, doesn't burn any oil, leak down test of less than 1% at 100 PSI. The engine's never been opened(except for one valve adjustment check).
During the summer, the yards cut TWICE a week, rest of the year, once a week, 365, so it IS used ore than most..
Agreed, the older engines, cast iron sleeves, roller bearings, etc, splash lubrication lasted very long. Keep it simple, less stuff to break/fail.
Newer engines, some corners are cut, but for instance, OHV's, over head cams, IS an improvement in performance, fuel use, heat dissipation, etc (like a flat head Ford vs an OHC newer car engine).
I've never had a yard machine with an oil filter/oil pump and when the oil looks darker, it gets changed. For my 10 HP Briggs generator (OHV, tilted cylinder, splash oil system), I use full synthetic 10w50 (SW Florida-so when used, it's hot and will run for days).
IMO, MAINTAINANCE is the key. Regular oil changes, fresh fuel, draining the bowl (for extended non-use) will extend the life of any machine.
I'm on my second Snapper walk behind (self propelled) since 1985. This current engine, 7 HP, OHV (considered commercial NOW) is about 11 years old, doesn't burn any oil, leak down test of less than 1% at 100 PSI. The engine's never been opened(except for one valve adjustment check).
During the summer, the yards cut TWICE a week, rest of the year, once a week, 365, so it IS used ore than most..
#15
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
My sister is still has dad's first Victa from 1966 but of course it is a 2 stroke.
The 82 year old resident of the bottom front unit uses it to mow the common area of the block.
About 1/2 hour mowing 40 times a year
Still starts first pull. It gets an annual service on Boxing day when I go there for lunch.
So yes maintenance is the key and no-maintenance is the myth factories sell to the ignorant public so they will wreck the mower & buy a new one.
Just done a reel & set of bed knives on a 1954 Ransom & Miles reel mower fitted with a BSA 98cc industrial engine salvaged from a WWII aircraft battery charger.
The 82 year old resident of the bottom front unit uses it to mow the common area of the block.
About 1/2 hour mowing 40 times a year
Still starts first pull. It gets an annual service on Boxing day when I go there for lunch.
So yes maintenance is the key and no-maintenance is the myth factories sell to the ignorant public so they will wreck the mower & buy a new one.
Just done a reel & set of bed knives on a 1954 Ransom & Miles reel mower fitted with a BSA 98cc industrial engine salvaged from a WWII aircraft battery charger.
#16
G
gladiator801
G
gladiator801
There is an average of motors that will hold up and those that do not the cheap motors with no crankshaft bearing or bushing just the pot metal housing the hole wears out fairly quickly had it happen to a cheap Briggs. There was a guy at work who never changed oil in his old Datsun pickup just added 2 quarts when oil pressure light came on, in the winter he would jam a mountaindew can on the throttle and warm it up at 5000 rpm at 0 degrees its amazing it never blew up and he ran it for years
#17
Koehn's Lawn Service
They were amazing motors I'm still running one in a 94 walker we have it set up as a 36 bagger and still using it. The counter clock quit my gosh I don't have a clue of exact hours but it has a ton on it. I don't run it the way we used to but still goes out every day with us. I've only put on new starter and coil. I am religious with my oil changes and maintenence
Koehn's Lawn Service
I was reading on mower maintaince oil and filter changes how important oil filter changes were, but what about the old kohler and briggs motors that had no oil filters and ran for years, most of the time lasting longer than most newer motors do with filters. I have a 30 year old 16 hp kohler magnum without an oil filter with over 3300 hours on it and only repaire were fuel pump and main seal. The old motors were built heavier most cast iron rather than aluminum , and lasted much longer even without a filter or oil pump. The overhead valve motors have to have oil pump to lube the valves, but it is still amazing the old motors run so long with splash lube.
They were amazing motors I'm still running one in a 94 walker we have it set up as a 36 bagger and still using it. The counter clock quit my gosh I don't have a clue of exact hours but it has a ton on it. I don't run it the way we used to but still goes out every day with us. I've only put on new starter and coil. I am religious with my oil changes and maintenence
#18
7394
7394
Before 1953 Chevy's 6 cylinder engines used dippers on the rod caps to dip & sling the oil.
But this has nothing to do with mowers. Just saying same tech back then.
But this has nothing to do with mowers. Just saying same tech back then.
#19
J
John Fitzgerald
J
John Fitzgerald
Way back, a lot of people would change the oil about once a month in mowing season.
#20
M
MushCreek
M
MushCreek
I imagine splash lube engines run a lot 'dirtier' than oil pump engines- maybe something to do with air quality regs?
My old Snapper finally died after 45 years. Still had the original 8 hp aluminum Briggs on it. I've only owned it for 4 years, so I have no idea what kind of care it had previously. I have several old Cub Cadets, including two Originals. The 55 y/o cast iron Kohlers still run fine.
My old Snapper finally died after 45 years. Still had the original 8 hp aluminum Briggs on it. I've only owned it for 4 years, so I have no idea what kind of care it had previously. I have several old Cub Cadets, including two Originals. The 55 y/o cast iron Kohlers still run fine.
#21
A
(Account Closed)
Splash lubed engines have been around for ever (mostly smaller engines) and are darn near bullet proof and very simple..
Longevity issues most likely are due to the maintenance or LACK OF.
Yes, an oil filter (of course) would help clean the oil but the oil still has to be changed occasionally.
Air filters need cleaning or replacement...
I've had two year old mowers come in, not running (carb issues usually) where the oil is BLACK, more grass caked up under the frame than you can imagine...
A
(Account Closed)
I imagine splash lube engines run a lot 'dirtier' than oil pump engines- maybe something to do with air quality regs?
My old Snapper finally died after 45 years. Still had the original 8 hp aluminum Briggs on it. I've only owned it for 4 years, so I have no idea what kind of care it had previously. I have several old Cub Cadets, including two Originals. The 55 y/o cast iron Kohlers still run fine.
Splash lubed engines have been around for ever (mostly smaller engines) and are darn near bullet proof and very simple..
Longevity issues most likely are due to the maintenance or LACK OF.
Yes, an oil filter (of course) would help clean the oil but the oil still has to be changed occasionally.
Air filters need cleaning or replacement...
I've had two year old mowers come in, not running (carb issues usually) where the oil is BLACK, more grass caked up under the frame than you can imagine...
#22
tom3
I work with a guy who does that today. And he drives a late model car. I'd tell him that he'd be better off changing the oil and leaving the filter in, but I just keep it to myself. I've always figured that if the engine is grinding off particles that the oil filter will catch it's already junk.
tom3
I knew a guy once that claimed you did not need to change the oil in your car, just change the oil filter. He claimed oil did not wear out, just gets dirty. I said how's that working for you? Is the oil black. He said not it just gets kind of a light brown tint, but does not get black like you would think. He said that you are rplacing 1 quart of oil each time you change the filter. And the filter is cleaning what is left. He did not own new vehicles. They were usually high mileage stuff. Haven't talked to him for a few years so don't know how that is working for him.
I work with a guy who does that today. And he drives a late model car. I'd tell him that he'd be better off changing the oil and leaving the filter in, but I just keep it to myself. I've always figured that if the engine is grinding off particles that the oil filter will catch it's already junk.
#23
S
SidecarFlip
S
SidecarFlip
Like my old boss that ran a Chrysler Pacifica 73K miles and never lifted the hood to check anything. 73K and it popped a rod. Bet the oil was pretty if there was any. I don't think he knew where the hood release even was....:laughing:
#24
tom3
tom3
Getting off topic a bit but a local garage, couple guys who were the best mechanics around back in the 60s. Liked to drink some too. One of the guys rebuilt his 56 Olds in the evenings, welded the hood shut. Car ran for many years without being touched. Kind of amazing there.