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When I pull the handles in on my mower to disengage the brake and drive it keeps cutting off. This is happening more frequently lately but has been happening for a while. Any idea what could cause this? After a while of letting it run and keep trying it will work. See video of symptoms.

Sounds like a safety switch. I would check those are working properly

As said it is probably a safety switch. The two I would check first is, the seat safety switch and the parking break switch, in that order.

Rivets said:

As said it is probably a safety switch. The two I would check first is, the seat safety switch and the parking break switch, in that order.

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Thanks guys. The seat safety switch has been temporarily bypassed because I was having some issues with it before with the blade engagement. The cutting off issue did about the same thing before I bypassed the seat safety switch and after so it can't be that. Any idea where the parking brake safety switch is on this mower?

Sorry, I was thinking of a different unit. Your's does not have a parking brake. I'm now thinking it is either the kill relay or the PTO switch. How old is this unit, they have not been out that long?

Rivets said:

Sorry, I was thinking of a different unit. Your's does not have a parking brake. I'm now thinking it is either the kill relay or the PTO switch. How old is this unit, they have not been out that long?

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It's a 2011. I don't think it's the PTO switch. I have recently replaced it when I was dealing with the blade engagement issue and it was doing the same thing with the old switch.

I'm looking for the kill relay on the wiring diagram and not seeing it. Can you point out where I can find this? Thanks.

Your kill circuit is not standard, but looks to be handled by the Brake Actuator.

But looking at the video, it almost seems that the engine is shutting off because the fuel solenoid is shutting off, unless the Brake Actuator accounts for the delay.

Just to test, unplug the kill wire going to the ignition module and see what happens. Also, take a test light, and turn the key to ON, and test for voltage, you should have voltage at the B,I, R, A posts, if not, then the keyswitch is acting up, of course also check both sides of the fuses.

Why not? The fuel solenoid would account for the delay. I am not saying that the solenoid is bad, but is what is making the engine shut down.

EngineMan said:

There seems to be no kill relay, and its not the fuel solenoid, can you say if the hour meter is working.

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There isn't an hours meter on it

If he runs it with the ignition kill wire unplugged, and it still shuts down, then that would point more to the brake actuator as the culprit, of course only if the test of the keyswitch checked out, and assuming that the seat switch is bypassed correctly as well.

The key switch legend is easy to read.

On your system the kill relay is built into the brake actuator. To my knowledge this is a non testable part. I would backup and check the two switches on your motion control arms. If they are working properly then I would go to the PTO switch. I know that you said that they were working properly, but when trying to solve electrical problems, YOU NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING, until you test it and can verify that it is good. I have seen many PTO switches go back causing this problem. Sorry, but I have tried to find my procedure to test the PTO switch, but am having no luck. Do you have a 5 or 6 prong switch? I may have to redo the procedure, if I can't find it.

wrdabney said:

There isn't an hours meter on it

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It had this issue before I bypassed the seat switch.

Have you tried any of today's suggestions?

OK, throw us a little bone... What happens if you start it up, and instead of futzing with the handles, you engage the pto switch, what happens then?

Also, start it up, and stand up, without futzing with the handles or the pto switch......What happens?

That is a lot easier than my other questions.

Help us out here...

Fish said:

OK, throw us a little bone... What happens if you start it up, and instead of futzing with the handles, you engage the pto switch, what happens then?

Also, start it up, and stand up, without futzing with the handles or the pto switch......What happens?

That is a lot easier than my other questions.

Help us out here...

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Thanks Fish. I have been at work all day so as soon as I get home in a couple of hours I will do these tests and report back.

great, we are all trying to help.

Most of the experts here are sitting around in their underwear, fighting with each other, waiting for spring....... It may be ugly, but they all love it!!!!!

Fish said:

Most of the experts here are sitting around in their underwear, fighting with each other, waiting for spring....... It may be ugly, but they all love it!!!!!

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Haha, spring is on its way shortly hopefully. I really appreciate all of your help

Fish said:

OK, throw us a little bone... What happens if you start it up, and instead of futzing with the handles, you engage the pto switch, what happens then?

Also, start it up, and stand up, without futzing with the handles or the pto switch......What happens?

That is a lot easier than my other questions.

Help us out here...

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Here are the answers to your easy questions. #1 the blades engage as they should. #2 the mower and the blades continue to run

Fish said:

Most of the experts here are sitting around in their underwear, fighting with each other, waiting for spring....... It may be ugly, but they all love it!!!!!

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Fish, you crack me up...:laughing: Even us non-experts are waiting for Spring. I've tried to keep busy on snowblowerforum.com, but I'm already sick of snow and winter...:thumbdown:
Bruce

So what's next?

Sorry, the old guard has been on my arse here......

Let me regroup, and some of the other guys......

So do you have a simple test light on hand? If so, this could be fairly easy.

If not, go to NAPa/WAL Mart and buy one for 3 bucks....

Fish said:

So do you have a simple test light on hand? If so, this could be fairly easy.

If not, go to NAPa/WAL Mart and buy one for 3 bucks....

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I don't have a test light. I have a good multi meter if i can do it with that. If not, I can pick up a test light.

Well, put it on a setting for continuance.

Rivets will be here soon to "muddy" the waters......

Fish said:

Well, put it on a setting for continuance.

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Ok then what

Well, "rivets" is the teacher here.... So his advice should be what you would listen too.....

Jeez fish either help the guy or don't..... If you want to wait until rivets gets here because you can't then just wait stop being such an a@@ ... I wish I could help you but I suck with electrical

Well then, can you unplug the little "kill" wire to the ignition coil? And tell us what happens?

exotion said:

Jeez fish either help the guy or don't..... If you want to wait until rivets gets here because you can't then just wait stop being such an a@@ ... I wish I could help you but I suck with electrical

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No worries...

Fish said:

Well then, can you unplug the little "kill" wire to the ignition coil? And tell us what happens?

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While it's running or just unplug it then crank it up? Any chance you could point this out to me on the wiring diagram?

exotion said:

Jeez fish either help the guy or don't..... If you want to wait until rivets gets here because you can't then just wait stop being such an a@@ ... I wish I could help you but I suck with electrical

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yeah stick to the topic,in FACT I do get a being taught feeling when riviets responds,i enjoy learning, despite what my wife says im not a know it all,but I want to be.

Well on the diagram, go to the right to the engine. It would be the small wire coming from "Mag Kill" to the "Ignition Module", on most mowers, that wire usually is
on a circuit that puts it to ground to shut off the engine, unfortunately yours is a bit more complicated, and the brake actuator fulfills several functions, including
sending the kill wire to ground to shut it down. I was curious to see if you were shutting down because your mag was being grounded, or that the fuel solenoid was
being shut off, which would account for the engine running an extra second or so when the lever was moved in, as it takes a second or so to run out that last bit of fuel.

The neutral shifts on the levers obviously work, so it is just a matter of eliminating suspects, so a test light or voltmeter would be handy.

remove the keyswitch from the mower, look at the terminals you will see letters that should correspond with the letter on the diagram of the key switch.

exotion said:

Jeez fish either help the guy or don't..... If you want to wait until rivets gets here because you can't then just wait stop being such an a@@ ... I wish I could help you but I suck with electrical

Click to expand...

Yeah, electrical can be a pain, especially when the mower is several hundred miles away.

Fish said:

Well on the diagram, go to the right to the engine. It would be the small wire coming from "Mag Kill" to the "Ignition Module", on most mowers, that wire usually is
on a circuit that puts it to ground to shut off the engine, unfortunately yours is a bit more complicated, and the brake actuator fulfills several functions, including
sending the kill wire to ground to shut it down. I was curious to see if you were shutting down because your mag was being grounded, or that the fuel solenoid was
being shut off, which would account for the engine running an extra second or so when the lever was moved in, as it takes a second or so to run out that last bit of fuel.

The neutral shifts on the levers obviously work, so it is just a matter of eliminating suspects, so a test light or voltmeter would be handy.

remove the keyswitch from the mower, look at the terminals you will see letters that should correspond with the letter on the diagram of the key switch.

Click to expand...

I have a volt meter. What you I test on the key switch?

Yes, a multi meter would work just fine, just set it to dc volts and clamp the black lead to the negative terminal, then plug the keyswitch back onto its plug on the harness, but leave it free so you can test the terminals on the back.

Now look at the little chart beside the keyswitch on the diagram, and the keyswitch has 3 positions: off, on, start [or crank].

Now, with the key on the "off" position, check the voltage on each terminal {keyswitch plugged in of course}. You should have voltage on only the "B" terminal, and you also should have voltage at the B+ terminal at the brake actuator.

Now, turn the key to the next position, "On". What terminals now have voltage?

I'll try one more time. I have asked you to double check the the safety switches and the PTO switch. If those are working correctly, then the only other thing is the brake actuator module. Plug the connection on the module and check for corrosion on both the plug and the module. If you find corrosion I'm afraid that you will have to replace both the module and the wiring harness. You can take this info and do as you please. This will be the last time I will post on this thread, because I don't feel that you trust what I say, but when others refer to me in their posts figure I should give it one more try. Good Luck.

Rivets said:

I'll try one more time. I have asked you to double check the the safety switches and the PTO switch. If those are working correctly, then the only other thing is the brake actuator module. Plug the connection on the module and check for corrosion on both the plug and the module. If you find corrosion I'm afraid that you will have to replace both the module and the wiring harness. You can take this info and do as you please. This will be the last time I will post on this thread, because I don't feel that you trust what I say, but when others refer to me in their posts figure I should give it one more try. Good Luck.

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Are you referring to me not trusting what you say? I don't not trust what any of you say because you know a heck of a lot more than I do about it. I just don't know what the heck I am doing and am trying to figure it out. I was under the impression that the test that I did that Fish said (Mower running, turn pto on (it works) and stand up to make sure the seat switch is bypassed correctly (it is)) took care of the seat switch and the pto switch. You said to check the handle safety switches but never told me how to test them so I am not sure what to do here. Don't get your britches in a wad over a little miscommunication. The internet isn't a wonderful forum for efficient communication.

The lever switches work, they have 1 wire in and 1 wire out, and moving either one will kill the engine, so they are obviously working.

Testing of the keyswitch, and the kill wire and the fuel solenoid are just the next steps I would do to isolate things, because it is well known that you cannot bring
electrical items back.

Trying to visualize and find this actuator on the lookup ain't easy, it is #32 on this pic. And has mechanical arms/levers attached, so you might do a visual inspection and
make sure that nothing has just come loose on the mechanical side. As the mechanical arms may also impact the function of the module, I don't know, so if you could
snap a pic or two, and take those voltage readings, maybe a person familiar with the Toros will chime in....

Oooooppps, here is the pic....

I've been out of town all week so I haven't been able to do anything but when I got home tonight I did 2 quick tests. I tested the key switch with the meter and it appears to be fine. Also I cranked up the mower and when I move in one handle or the other it is disengaging the parking brake. There is a little motor I guess inside the brake actuator and when the handles are pulled in it spins and disengages the brake on both sides via 2 control arms so it seems to be working right. I'm stumped right now.

wrdabney said:

I've been out of town all week so I haven't been able to do anything but when I got home tonight I did 2 quick tests. I tested the key switch with the meter and it appears to be fine. Also I cranked up the mower and when I move in one handle or the other it is disengaging the parking brake. There is a little motor I guess inside the brake actuator and when the handles are pulled in it spins and disengages the brake on both sides via 2 control arms so it seems to be working right. I'm stumped right now.

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So what was your final outcome? Hoe did you resolve this problem? Or is your Toro still cutting out on you?

I am positive that this problem is caused by a battery drain. The machine is not charging the battery during use and continues to draw down on the battery while not in use. It has been this way since it was brand new. And when the battery gets low, the safety switches associated with the handles and other parts of machine start to act up. The machine was in the shop 5 times during the summer it was brand new. The Toro dealer was stumped and it was never resolved.

Using a meter, I discovered that when the voltage drops to 11 volts or less, the safety switches will begin to misbehave. I thought it was the crappy battery that came with the unit when it was new, but I have had the same problem with a sears die hard and with the duracell that is currently installed.

I have property that takes no more than 1.5 hours to cut if I run non-stop. There is only one work-around (not solution) that I have found to work consistently. There is a wing nut on the negative battery terminal, so I disconnect that terminal when the machine is not in use. Then just before I cut grass, I reconnect the terminal and attach a battery charger for ~30 minutes. I have not had any more problems with the safety switches since I started this practice.

PIECE OF CRAP TORO.

You obviously don’t know how a charging system works. All batteries drain while the unit is in operation. If your electrical system looses voltage while you are cutting, then one of two things is bad. Bad battery or bad charging system. You have replaced batteries, but you have never checked to see if the charging system is putting out 14+ volts while the engine is running. You are blaming Toro for something which is not their fault. This is an engine problem, in the electrical system. If you understood how the electrical system on a tractor or Z-turn works, you would have figured this out three batteries ago.

Of course l'm going to blame toro. It's your name that's on the product. Who else would I blame??? If you don't like the negative PR then fix your product. PIECE OF CRAP TORO

Firstly Rivets was a technical teacher, not a TORO employee, don't go blaming him.
If the problem was not resolved and had been properly documented by the dealer then the warranty continues till the problem is solved, that is consumer law and fairly well universal world wide.

Your mower has a parasitic load on it and the usual culprit is a diode in the charging wire or the rectifier.
We can understand your feelings & frustrations however, if you want help resolving your problem then ask for it.
If you just want to vent then go over to face book with all the other wingers.
This forum was set up to help people fix problems they have with their mowers not to vent their spleens.

Firstly Rivets was a technical teacher, not a TORO employee, don't go blaming him.
If the problem was not resolved and had been properly documented by the dealer then the warranty continues till the problem is solved, that is consumer law and fairly well universal world wide.

Your mower has a parasitic load on it and the usual culprit is a diode in the charging wire or the rectifier.

We all understand you dissappointment & frustrations, however if you want help resolving your problem then ask for it.
If you just want to vent then go over to face book with all the other wingers.
This forum was set up to help people fix problems they have with their mowers not to vent their spleens.

Your problem was not a design fault or even a very common fault.
If it was there would be 10,000 posts about the fault and the best you could do was to dig up one from 2014 .

ME thinks your real problem was with the dealer who was recharging the battery then fobbing you off rather than chasing up the cause.
And yes if your is fitted with the electronic brake module they will not work under voltage.
This is a safety feature , not a design fault.
Most PTO's will not work at 10V and many relays require 11 or 12 v to trip .

I'm not blaming anybody but toro I only came to this forum to see if someone found a solution that toro hasn't found. I am not comfortable with working on the electrical system. 5 trips to the dealer and on that last visit it included a toro rep from their Ohio plant and still not resolved. its not my desire to vent,I'm just extremely frustrated. So I will make this my final thread.

That’s OK Bert, I’ve been called far worse. If this guy understood electrical systems, charging systems in particular, as well as he professes, the problem would have been solved long ago.

He starts by hyjacking a 4 year old thread, then he starts a rant which you must read multiple times to understand he is not trying to help the OP, but posting his problem. Is he looking for help—???? Does he provide us with unit and engine model numbers so we can understand what he is taking about——NO. Does he give us any tangible background on what has been by the dealer or himself to fix the problem——NO. He probably is still using the unit, without resolving the problem, just keeps replacing batteries. If he would post numbers I could send him instructions on how to troubleshoot the problem, but he may also may need instructions on how to use his analog meter.

I’m willing to bet we are not getting the whole true story here or the dealer he takes it to understands charging systems as much as he does. We will hear back from him saying we don’t know what we are talking about and just trying to protect equipment manufacturers. No, I doubt I’ll do any more replying unless he gets personal, although it might be fun to see if I can make him look a little more foolish.

I do wonder some times, particularly as Toro went to great lengths to educate people how the electrical system works by publishing the Demystification guides.

While isolating the actual problem can be tedious there is nothing in the wiring that a 12 year old would not have been taught in High School Physics.
Heaven help us when they start fitting RF filters and field activated alternators.
I mean a permanent magnet , hall effect triggered magneto and permanent magnet alternator with a single diode is about as simple as you could make a system.

Bert, your last post hit the nail on the head. When he says Toro cannot figure out what is wrong just doesn’t make any sense to me. We both have worked on multiple units with electrical problems and electrical drain and charging systems are are one and two on the list of easy problems to diagnose. I wish he would have posted model numbers and exactly what the problem is. I guess we will have to sit back, have a glass of vino, and discuss the advantages and disadvantages of points/condenser systems VS CDI systems, until the next wizard comes along and asks if a diode is wired backwards will it drain the battery.