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Toro Clone Engine Is Killing Me Help!
#1
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
Toro Recycler ELECTRIC START Model# 20374 Ser# 400745059 Clone Eng# 1P65F-2. Bought this used about 9 months ago. When I first tried it was amazing. BUT then after emptying bag for 4-5 time and engine was warmed up it became harder and harder to start until it would not start at all. Prob had been mowing 1/2 hour. I have tried everything I can think of and spent way too much. Kinda took it on as a hobbie or Im not going to let it beat me.
Gas is good. Cleaned carb then bought a NEW carb in case I didn't clean the first one well enough. Replaced coil. Air filter new. Oil good. When I got the new carb on it I used it about 3 times to mulch maple leaves. Each time prob re-started it 10 -15 times. Although it destroyed leaves (seems powerfull) It still hesitated to start BUT it did start EVERY TIME. So it was better but starting just wasn't quite like it should be. It would usually "out run the electric start" so I would let the switch out a few seconds until starter could re- engage and then it would fire up but usually after a tiny bit of "backfire" -hope that makes sense.
Then I decided to look at flywheel key. On this engine you could only see the key and groove on the flywheel side NOT the crank shaft so to be shure I removed flywheel and of coarse the key was in fine shape so I don't think flywheel has anything to do with it.
However - just out of curiosity I started engine using the electric start while I still had the blower housing and pull rope housing OFF the engine. Fired up immediatly (cold engine). So i completed installing the housings thinking would run great! NO. Sounded like something was scraping and engine wouldn't start. So I took housings off and tried to see what was scraping. Couldn't find anything wrong. Did this twice just to be sure. Then it started and sounded normal. BUT as it began to warm up and I shut it off and re-started it 7-10 times it became harder to start and I couldn't start it at all using the pull rope. So now I had made it even worse it seems!
There is nothing in the Toro manual about spark plug gap so I guess will try to get a "Clone Manual" + search online for Spark Gap info. Could the engine run great during mowing but be hard to start just because plug gap is a little off?
ONLY thing I can think of is valves. This thing is a 2017 I think and I have a hard time thinking the valves could be messed up on such a newer mower. Should I just toss it in the scrap heap at local dump? Anyone want the old carb? I would mail it to you if you want it.
Any recomendations on what the problem could be? Could fact that it has Electric Start have anything to do with engine starting? Maybe the clown has just kicked my A*&! I think I paid about $230 for it. And now I am probably into it for Another $150 !!! Our gas here has 10% ethenol year round but that doesn't bother my vehicles or other 3 mowers I have. The Honda mower I was hoping this Toro would replace could be 20 years old or more. Still starts 1st or 2nd pull!
Thanks for any advice.
Gas is good. Cleaned carb then bought a NEW carb in case I didn't clean the first one well enough. Replaced coil. Air filter new. Oil good. When I got the new carb on it I used it about 3 times to mulch maple leaves. Each time prob re-started it 10 -15 times. Although it destroyed leaves (seems powerfull) It still hesitated to start BUT it did start EVERY TIME. So it was better but starting just wasn't quite like it should be. It would usually "out run the electric start" so I would let the switch out a few seconds until starter could re- engage and then it would fire up but usually after a tiny bit of "backfire" -hope that makes sense.
Then I decided to look at flywheel key. On this engine you could only see the key and groove on the flywheel side NOT the crank shaft so to be shure I removed flywheel and of coarse the key was in fine shape so I don't think flywheel has anything to do with it.
However - just out of curiosity I started engine using the electric start while I still had the blower housing and pull rope housing OFF the engine. Fired up immediatly (cold engine). So i completed installing the housings thinking would run great! NO. Sounded like something was scraping and engine wouldn't start. So I took housings off and tried to see what was scraping. Couldn't find anything wrong. Did this twice just to be sure. Then it started and sounded normal. BUT as it began to warm up and I shut it off and re-started it 7-10 times it became harder to start and I couldn't start it at all using the pull rope. So now I had made it even worse it seems!
There is nothing in the Toro manual about spark plug gap so I guess will try to get a "Clone Manual" + search online for Spark Gap info. Could the engine run great during mowing but be hard to start just because plug gap is a little off?
ONLY thing I can think of is valves. This thing is a 2017 I think and I have a hard time thinking the valves could be messed up on such a newer mower. Should I just toss it in the scrap heap at local dump? Anyone want the old carb? I would mail it to you if you want it.
Any recomendations on what the problem could be? Could fact that it has Electric Start have anything to do with engine starting? Maybe the clown has just kicked my A*&! I think I paid about $230 for it. And now I am probably into it for Another $150 !!! Our gas here has 10% ethenol year round but that doesn't bother my vehicles or other 3 mowers I have. The Honda mower I was hoping this Toro would replace could be 20 years old or more. Still starts 1st or 2nd pull!
Thanks for any advice.
#2
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Could be the ignition coil is going kapoot. Some times when they heat up they start to fail...
ALso, is your choke fully opening when you open it...
Will it start easier when hot if you choke it?
ALso, is your choke fully opening when you open it...
Will it start easier when hot if you choke it?
#3
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
Brand new coil & spark plug was fix number one. Coil is maybe 3 months old with very little use. I will look to see about "choke system" since hadn't thought about that. BUT - shouldn't have to do anything like that if unit was operating like normal. I can't say for sure previous owner new about hard starting but since he always has numerous adds on C List for mowers I think he saw me coming 100 miles away! He knew the mower looked brand new and that anyone checking it out would have no clue it had a Chinese Clone and also wouldn't use it long enough to discover hard starting when warm. I didn't even try it out. It looked brand new. And started imediatly and was a Toro which I thought was a quality brand so I "took the bait".
I can't get it to run good enough and I would feel bad selling it for even $50 knowing it doesn't work. My used rusty 15 - 25 year old Honda is far superior. BUT having to pull the cord while mowing a huge lawn causes neck and back pain for days since I aint getting any younger. I thought electric start was the solution to that problem. Maybe I will put it on C List for free or $50 and tell what the problem is with it?
I can't get it to run good enough and I would feel bad selling it for even $50 knowing it doesn't work. My used rusty 15 - 25 year old Honda is far superior. BUT having to pull the cord while mowing a huge lawn causes neck and back pain for days since I aint getting any younger. I thought electric start was the solution to that problem. Maybe I will put it on C List for free or $50 and tell what the problem is with it?
#4
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Hello,
I looked up this mower on Partstree.com. It has a "thermal switch" (Toro part number 133-9907) on what looks like the carb manifold. Since your problem is heat related I'd investigate this. I'm not sure how this switch functions.
The scraping noise is not normal, I'd check the flywheel brake to see if that is functioning properly.
Also make sure the carb insulator (Toro part number 133-9901) wasn't removed by the previous owner. Hard to know what knucklehead worked on your engine before you bought it off C.L.
Regards
Jeff
I looked up this mower on Partstree.com. It has a "thermal switch" (Toro part number 133-9907) on what looks like the carb manifold. Since your problem is heat related I'd investigate this. I'm not sure how this switch functions.
The scraping noise is not normal, I'd check the flywheel brake to see if that is functioning properly.
Also make sure the carb insulator (Toro part number 133-9901) wasn't removed by the previous owner. Hard to know what knucklehead worked on your engine before you bought it off C.L.
Regards
Jeff
#5
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
Jeff & Cub Guy - Thanks so much for your replies. The scraping noise stopped after I re-installed both housings for 2nd time. (Fixed I think)
"thermal switch" (Toro part number 133-9907) - this is either an integral part of new carb OR doesn't exist on my engine!? There doesn't appear to be any part held on with 2 screws like in Toro Drawing SO...............??
What about the 133-9919 - SWITCH-STOP, ENGINE? It looks like a micro-switch and I hear it click when I pull back the brake handle so I assume its good. Not a part that would slowely fail causing hard starting is it? Pretty sure it "cuts out" spark wire when you let go of handle as well as engage flywheel brake.
Here is another parts that doesn't exist on my engine!!! 133-9918 - ALTERNATOR -what? tHERE IS NO $30 ALTERNATOR! Would that be IF wasn't electric start or something? There are mounting holes for one BUT engine runs fine W/O an alternator -WTH????!!!!!!
MORE WEIRD STUFF?! - (or maybe normal) Lots of part number changes including SPARK PLUG!, Entire engine head Assy. ($100 part) FUEL CAP - Old one was stripped so I actually did throw on a new fuel cap. IGNITION COIL - Toro list says replaces a previous part number. i KNOW parts tree checked with Toro B4 sending me a coil AND engine runs so prob correct one.
IS THIS AMT OF PART # changes seem unusual or is that normal ?? Man Oh Man like ten new questions and few answers !!!
"thermal switch" (Toro part number 133-9907) - this is either an integral part of new carb OR doesn't exist on my engine!? There doesn't appear to be any part held on with 2 screws like in Toro Drawing SO...............??
What about the 133-9919 - SWITCH-STOP, ENGINE? It looks like a micro-switch and I hear it click when I pull back the brake handle so I assume its good. Not a part that would slowely fail causing hard starting is it? Pretty sure it "cuts out" spark wire when you let go of handle as well as engage flywheel brake.
Here is another parts that doesn't exist on my engine!!! 133-9918 - ALTERNATOR -what? tHERE IS NO $30 ALTERNATOR! Would that be IF wasn't electric start or something? There are mounting holes for one BUT engine runs fine W/O an alternator -WTH????!!!!!!
MORE WEIRD STUFF?! - (or maybe normal) Lots of part number changes including SPARK PLUG!, Entire engine head Assy. ($100 part) FUEL CAP - Old one was stripped so I actually did throw on a new fuel cap. IGNITION COIL - Toro list says replaces a previous part number. i KNOW parts tree checked with Toro B4 sending me a coil AND engine runs so prob correct one.
IS THIS AMT OF PART # changes seem unusual or is that normal ?? Man Oh Man like ten new questions and few answers !!!
#6
B
bertsmobile1
There are 2 two ways to fix an engine
1) toss new parts in till you fall over what is wrong
2) diagnose what is wrong then fix it.
Now the engine runs fine without the blower housing off but won't start with the blower housing on, so there is your first clue.
There is some thing that connects to or rubs against the blower housing that is preventing it from starting.
I have found a problem with the microswitch not travelling quite far enough to break the kill circuit.
The switch on these is normally closed so when the plunger moves far enough the kill circuit is opened and the magneto creates a spark.
So tie the bail to the handle and check to see if you have a spark
This engine should have an auto choke so the choke butterfly should be connected to the muffler with a control rod.
This rod can get fouled on the blower housing so either won't close fully or won't open fully/
People have a bad habit of ripping them off if the engine will not start.
As you have no idea what you are looking at please remove the blower housing and take some nice clear in focus photos.
The repair manual for the Loncin engine is on Toro's web page.
Go there and search for you manuals.
Post those photos so we can help you.
B
bertsmobile1
Jeff & Cub Guy - Thanks so much for your replies. The scraping noise stopped after I re-installed both housings for 2nd time. (Fixed I think)
"thermal switch" (Toro part number 133-9907) - this is either an integral part of new carb OR doesn't exist on my engine!? There doesn't appear to be any part held on with 2 screws like in Toro Drawing SO...............??
What about the 133-9919 - SWITCH-STOP, ENGINE? It looks like a micro-switch and I hear it click when I pull back the brake handle so I assume its good. Not a part that would slowely fail causing hard starting is it? Pretty sure it "cuts out" spark wire when you let go of handle as well as engage flywheel brake.
Here is another parts that doesn't exist on my engine!!! 133-9918 - ALTERNATOR -what? tHERE IS NO $30 ALTERNATOR! Would that be IF wasn't electric start or something? There are mounting holes for one BUT engine runs fine W/O an alternator -WTH????!!!!!!
MORE WEIRD STUFF?! - (or maybe normal) Lots of part number changes including SPARK PLUG!, Entire engine head Assy. ($100 part) FUEL CAP - Old one was stripped so I actually did throw on a new fuel cap. IGNITION COIL - Toro list says replaces a previous part number. i KNOW parts tree checked with Toro B4 sending me a coil AND engine runs so prob correct one.
IS THIS AMT OF PART # changes seem unusual or is that normal ?? Man Oh Man like ten new questions and few answers !!!
There are 2 two ways to fix an engine
1) toss new parts in till you fall over what is wrong
2) diagnose what is wrong then fix it.
Now the engine runs fine without the blower housing off but won't start with the blower housing on, so there is your first clue.
There is some thing that connects to or rubs against the blower housing that is preventing it from starting.
I have found a problem with the microswitch not travelling quite far enough to break the kill circuit.
The switch on these is normally closed so when the plunger moves far enough the kill circuit is opened and the magneto creates a spark.
So tie the bail to the handle and check to see if you have a spark
This engine should have an auto choke so the choke butterfly should be connected to the muffler with a control rod.
This rod can get fouled on the blower housing so either won't close fully or won't open fully/
People have a bad habit of ripping them off if the engine will not start.
As you have no idea what you are looking at please remove the blower housing and take some nice clear in focus photos.
The repair manual for the Loncin engine is on Toro's web page.
Go there and search for you manuals.
Post those photos so we can help you.
#7
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Hello,
The model and serial number you provided (20374 / 400745059) show it to be an electric start, so it should have the alternator.
The "thermal switch" appears to be a mechanical one, not electrical, so are there any bell cranks on your carb that don't have a rod going to it?
It is possible somebody put a different engine on your mower (sort of a Frankenmower), not unusual or uncommon on C.L.
Regards
Jeff
The model and serial number you provided (20374 / 400745059) show it to be an electric start, so it should have the alternator.
The "thermal switch" appears to be a mechanical one, not electrical, so are there any bell cranks on your carb that don't have a rod going to it?
It is possible somebody put a different engine on your mower (sort of a Frankenmower), not unusual or uncommon on C.L.
Regards
Jeff
#8
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
UPDATE - I wrapped some wire around Engine Stop/Brake Handle so I could keep engine running while I chopped a bunch of maple leaves. Engine started right up and ran great while I emptied bag 6-7 times. About 1/2 hour. Then I took the wire off handle and tried various starting methods. At first electric start wouldn't start it but pulling really hard on rope it engine would backfire then start on one pull. Electric start worked again after awhile (Might Just Be Too Slow Due To Not Fully Charged) Stumped again.
On Cadet Jeff's advice I looked for a second time for the thermal choke device. After awhile I figured out the part is bolted on top of the muffler with a linkage back to the Carb. (The Toro drawing was confusing to me because the muffler isn't shown with the fuel system drawing where the Thermal Device is) Anyhow I figured "this is it! Jeff is a genious" Took part off and it looked like a simple coil spring heats up on muffler and graduly moves its linkage arm about an inch.
OK I realized because I can use the electric start with both housings off I would fire it up and just watch the Thermal Choke Device. Since its bolted to hot metal it heats up fast. It absolutely pulls the choke to open run position so I do NOT think Thermal thing is the issue.
On Cadet Jeff's advice I looked for a second time for the thermal choke device. After awhile I figured out the part is bolted on top of the muffler with a linkage back to the Carb. (The Toro drawing was confusing to me because the muffler isn't shown with the fuel system drawing where the Thermal Device is) Anyhow I figured "this is it! Jeff is a genious" Took part off and it looked like a simple coil spring heats up on muffler and graduly moves its linkage arm about an inch.
OK I realized because I can use the electric start with both housings off I would fire it up and just watch the Thermal Choke Device. Since its bolted to hot metal it heats up fast. It absolutely pulls the choke to open run position so I do NOT think Thermal thing is the issue.
#9
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Hello,
No, I wouldn't buy a new "thermal Switch". Backfiring may be a sign the valves aren't adjusted correctly. I'd now look into getting the factory valve lash specs and seeing if they are out of adjustment.
Bert's right about replacing parts willy nilly (been there done that), a good mechanic actually knows what parts to replace (not me). Diagnosing is sometimes difficult, even with these small air cooled engines.
I'm just trying to point you in the right direction, from the info you've posted.
Regards
Jeff
No, I wouldn't buy a new "thermal Switch". Backfiring may be a sign the valves aren't adjusted correctly. I'd now look into getting the factory valve lash specs and seeing if they are out of adjustment.
Bert's right about replacing parts willy nilly (been there done that), a good mechanic actually knows what parts to replace (not me). Diagnosing is sometimes difficult, even with these small air cooled engines.
I'm just trying to point you in the right direction, from the info you've posted.
Regards
Jeff
#10
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
Hello,
The model and serial number you provided (20374 / 400745059) show it to be an electric start, so it should have the alternator.
The "thermal switch" appears to be a mechanical one, not electrical, so are there any bell cranks on your carb that don't have a rod going to it?
It is possible somebody put a different engine on your mower (sort of a Frankenmower), not unusual or uncommon on C.L.
Regards
Jeff-
I didn't realize there would be a separate manual for the engine so I only discovered that today. I found the thermal switch on the muffler then I realized since I can use electric start W/O either housing on I would just watch the engine heat up. The switch worked immediatly to open the choke. Less than a minute so I think it is OK.
Now TRY NOT TO LAUGH. What does the alternator do IF it was on this mower? AND how is it able to run w/o an alternator? This mower has a 12 volt wall outlet style charger. I do not believe there was any system for the Engine to re-charge the battery. (I think some Hondas do re-charge while engine is running?)
As for "Frankenmower" when I first bought parts Toro and Parts tree had to research to find a coil for this engine and they used the engine number on the housing 1P65F-2 since the coil fit and works seems like the engine is "legit" But its still possible. "what do I know" - didn't even know about any thermal switch!
Thanks for your help!
#11
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
There are 2 two ways to fix an engine
1) toss new parts in till you fall over what is wrong
2) diagnose what is wrong then fix it.
Now the engine runs fine without the blower housing off but won't start with the blower housing on, so there is your first clue.
There is some thing that connects to or rubs against the blower housing that is preventing it from starting.
I have found a problem with the microswitch not travelling quite far enough to break the kill circuit.
The switch on these is normally closed so when the plunger moves far enough the kill circuit is opened and the magneto creates a spark.
So tie the bail to the handle and check to see if you have a spark
This engine should have an auto choke so the choke butterfly should be connected to the muffler with a control rod.
This rod can get fouled on the blower housing so either won't close fully or won't open fully/
People have a bad habit of ripping them off if the engine will not start.
As you have no idea what you are looking at please remove the blower housing and take some nice clear in focus photos.
The repair manual for the Loncin engine is on Toro's web page.
BERT - You got my number. I for sure went #1 route on this thing. I NEVER should have mentioned the blower housing "rubbing" on anything. I can't explain that but it fixed itself by me just taking housings off and putting back on more carefully. Mower runs fine with housings OFF and ON.
The Toro drawing confused me but I figured out where the thermal switch was located on the muffler. Since Electric start will work I just started it with housings OFF so I could watch the thermal switch heat up. It fully opened the choke as muffler heated up probably in less than a minute so I do NOT think the thermal switch is any problem. Put housings back on and gaped the Spark Plug at 0.30. Cold engine fired right up NP.
I will study the engine manual and see if troubleshooting section helps. Thanks for your reply! Will try using mower some more tomorrow and update.
#12
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Hello,
The alternator just charges the battery when the motor is running. The wall charger is just a backup to use if the mower hasn't been run for a while.
I'd say check compression (hard to do because most engines use a decompression feature, but check YouTube fore any helpful videos) and valve lash.
You've already addressed any issues with the carb or coil.
Regards
Jeff
The alternator just charges the battery when the motor is running. The wall charger is just a backup to use if the mower hasn't been run for a while.
I'd say check compression (hard to do because most engines use a decompression feature, but check YouTube fore any helpful videos) and valve lash.
You've already addressed any issues with the carb or coil.
Regards
Jeff
#13
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
For those who may not know this, but there is no alternator on push mower engines. The batteries need an external charger. More than likely your problem is that the valves are out of adjustment, when the engine gets warm.. Intake should be .004-.006” and Exhaust should be .006-.008”. As Bert sai, down load the service manual, which has an excellent description on how to do this.
#14
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
Hello,
The model and serial number you provided (20374 / 400745059) show it to be an electric start, so it should have the alternator.
The "thermal switch" appears to be a mechanical one, not electrical, so are there any bell cranks on your carb that don't have a rod going to it?
It is possible somebody put a different engine on your mower (sort of a Frankenmower), not unusual or uncommon on C.L.
Regards
Jeff- Very Confusing RE Electric Start & Charging. Honda's HRX217HZA for sure charges the battery while the engine is running so it probably has an alternator?
Toro Paper Manual that I got with mower clearly shows that the charging system is a plug into wall 12 volt charger and it plugs into mower half way up handle to a tiny plastic connector. Manual says NOTHING about any engine charging. Toro must make at least one mower that recharges the battery from engine alternator?
Toro's online parts show an alternator for this model but I think thats a mistake or something. The Clone engine manual also shows the alternator so who knows? I have to assume my engine has mounts for one because maybe different model(s) use the same engine with an alternator add on?
Anyhow I guess Valves are next then "blown" head gasket. I don't understand how the engine could seem smooth running and powerfull if either of those were an issue but the backfiring says different I guess.
Appreciate your insight thanks.
#15
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I’ve been working on Toro mowers for 40 years and the Loncin engines since Toro started using then roughly 10 years ago and have never had one with the alternator show on the parts diagram. Don’t even remember these being talked about in any update schools or materials. Secondly, the charging system, if there is one, has nothing to do with how the engine starts or runs. They are not connected in any way and you don’t need a charging system to make these small engines run. The three things you need are spark, fuel and compression. If you know you have spark and fuel in the cylinder, you then must test the compression system. Easiest thing to check is valve clearance.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
As previously mentione the only big problem I have had with the Loncin engines on push mowers is the housing for the bake & cut out switch warping so the switch did not allow a spark to happen.
I have put some back together and managed to get the choke control rod messed up so it was fouling & not working properly
If this engine has the air vane to turn the choke off when the engine is running then the air vane & thermal controls rods an get crossed up.
This is why I asked for the photos.
As for push mowers charging batteries, Honda do an alternator in the 190 series engines.
Victa down here had a charge coil inside the magneto coil that sent a pulse to the battery through a diode.
Talon & Sanli both do a push mower with a charging circuit.
And none of them work particularly well and all need the occasional top up from a plug in charger.
I have put some back together and managed to get the choke control rod messed up so it was fouling & not working properly
If this engine has the air vane to turn the choke off when the engine is running then the air vane & thermal controls rods an get crossed up.
This is why I asked for the photos.
As for push mowers charging batteries, Honda do an alternator in the 190 series engines.
Victa down here had a charge coil inside the magneto coil that sent a pulse to the battery through a diode.
Talon & Sanli both do a push mower with a charging circuit.
And none of them work particularly well and all need the occasional top up from a plug in charger.
#17
N
Normstorm
***THANKS BERT***. I ordered cut out switch, Carb Insulator & Air cleaner "prefilter" since wasn't one on it. I bent the muffler cover slightly to make a little more room for Thermal Switch Arm to operate freely. Will check air vain linkages for binding against each other. Guess I will try and learn valve lash adjustment thing. Maybe its not as difficult as I think - never done B4.
N
Normstorm
As previously mentione the only big problem I have had with the Loncin engines on push mowers is the housing for the bake & cut out switch warping so the switch did not allow a spark to happen.
I have put some back together and managed to get the choke control rod messed up so it was fouling & not working properly
If this engine has the air vane to turn the choke off when the engine is running then the air vane & thermal controls rods an get crossed up.
This is why I asked for the photos.
As for push mowers charging batteries, Honda do an alternator in the 190 series engines.
Victa down here had a charge coil inside the magneto coil that sent a pulse to the batter through a diode.
Talon & Sanli both do a push mower with a charging circuit.
And none of them work particularly well and all need the occasional top up from a plug in charger.
***THANKS BERT***. I ordered cut out switch, Carb Insulator & Air cleaner "prefilter" since wasn't one on it. I bent the muffler cover slightly to make a little more room for Thermal Switch Arm to operate freely. Will check air vain linkages for binding against each other. Guess I will try and learn valve lash adjustment thing. Maybe its not as difficult as I think - never done B4.
#18
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
That's a lot of experience. I guess will have to try and do valve adjustment. I sort of thought if it was valves or compression that the engine wouldn't run smoothly or have good power at "working RPM". When this engine fires up it just sounds incredibly good. Thanks for help.
#19
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Do the vale lash exactly how the manual says
The longest & hardest part is cleaning the old gasket / sealant off the rocker cover
And remember you are not mooring the USS Missouri.
Go for the middle of the specs.
Get any 10 mechanics to set valve lash and you will get 12 slightly different settings, it is subjective feel .
When I started on engines decades ago I was given a massive set of feeler gauges.
The mechanic who showed how to set a gap put the feelers in and then tightened the joint
His instructions were you should be able to pull the feeler out but if you let go it should stay there.
1,2 or 3 thou either way makes little difference to a mower engine.
A full blown race engine yes but a mower engine no.
The longest & hardest part is cleaning the old gasket / sealant off the rocker cover
And remember you are not mooring the USS Missouri.
Go for the middle of the specs.
Get any 10 mechanics to set valve lash and you will get 12 slightly different settings, it is subjective feel .
When I started on engines decades ago I was given a massive set of feeler gauges.
The mechanic who showed how to set a gap put the feelers in and then tightened the joint
His instructions were you should be able to pull the feeler out but if you let go it should stay there.
1,2 or 3 thou either way makes little difference to a mower engine.
A full blown race engine yes but a mower engine no.
#20
N
Normstorm
***BERT great "sayings"!
***And remember you are not mooring the USS Missouri*** Had to look that up. I knew the Japanese surrendered on it but I thought it was a carrier and I thought it was still moored an hour away in Bremerton WA. Forgot that they towed it off to Hawaii for final resting spot.
N
Normstorm
Do the vale lash exactly how the manual says
The longest & hardest part is cleaning the old gasket / sealant off the rocker cover
And remember you are not mooring the USS Missouri.
Go for the middle of the specs.
Get any 10 mechanics to set valve lash and you will get 12 slightly different settings, it is subjective feel .
When I started on engines decades ago I was given a massive set of feeler gauges.
The mechanic who showed how to set a gap put the feelers in and then tightened the joint
His instructions were you should be able to pull the feeler out but if you let go it should stay there.
1,2 or 3 thou either way makes little difference to a mower engine.
A full blown race engine yes but a mower engine no.
***BERT great "sayings"!
***And remember you are not mooring the USS Missouri*** Had to look that up. I knew the Japanese surrendered on it but I thought it was a carrier and I thought it was still moored an hour away in Bremerton WA. Forgot that they towed it off to Hawaii for final resting spot.
#21
tom3
tom3
I suspect the alternator is a set of magnets on the underside of the flywheel with some coils under there to provide the current, exterior piece might have been the rectifier/regulator, might be missing at this point. For the hot start I'd try to wire the choke open after the intial startup even though the thermostat seems to be working.
#22
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
***RESULTS OF VALVE ADJUSTMENT*** So I did the valve adjustment. I would say I turned both screws Clockwise about 1/2 turn or less to get feeler gauge to slide with a little bit of drag. So they were somewhat out of adjustment. Just realized I should have carefully measured what they were at B4 adjustment so you guys could have said they were way off or "sounds about right" for a used engine.
Put it back together and pulled cord. Engine started immediatly! Went out and mowed about 8,000 Sq Feet of wet grass with quite a few leaves. I would say I emptied bag and re-started engine 20 - 30 times. Most of time used the electric start but also used pull cord a few times. Engine started every time. It still became somewhat slower to start toward the end but it did start every time. This could be partly due to electric starter slowing down due to use. I have no idea what would be normal for this mower as far as how many times should electric start work B4 having to Re- Charge It.
Anyway it maybe improved somewhat but it wasn't any "night & day" difference. Mower completed the job and bagged wet leaves and grass very well. Maybe its good enough.
Since I don't have the gauges and stuff I don't think I will explore the compression testing. I guess maybe a blown head gasket would be an "easy fix" but anything else would mean the engine is older than I thought or had a ton of use? Wouldn't a "blown gasket" be obvious and it wouldn't run well while mowing?
Most likely will try to sell it on C List. Chock it up as a good (but expensive) learning experience? ! Thank You everyone for helpfull advice.
Put it back together and pulled cord. Engine started immediatly! Went out and mowed about 8,000 Sq Feet of wet grass with quite a few leaves. I would say I emptied bag and re-started engine 20 - 30 times. Most of time used the electric start but also used pull cord a few times. Engine started every time. It still became somewhat slower to start toward the end but it did start every time. This could be partly due to electric starter slowing down due to use. I have no idea what would be normal for this mower as far as how many times should electric start work B4 having to Re- Charge It.
Anyway it maybe improved somewhat but it wasn't any "night & day" difference. Mower completed the job and bagged wet leaves and grass very well. Maybe its good enough.
Since I don't have the gauges and stuff I don't think I will explore the compression testing. I guess maybe a blown head gasket would be an "easy fix" but anything else would mean the engine is older than I thought or had a ton of use? Wouldn't a "blown gasket" be obvious and it wouldn't run well while mowing?
Most likely will try to sell it on C List. Chock it up as a good (but expensive) learning experience? ! Thank You everyone for helpfull advice.
#23
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Check the valves again.
I could not even remember just how many have come into the shop with an impossible to fix mower that they had spent near $1000 on replacing everything that bolts on.
It turns out to be common valve lash.
People are used to modern cars with twin overhead cams fitted with roller rockers, bucket lifters or hydraulic lifters.
These of course never need to adjusted for the life of the vehicle
Fifty years ago monthly adjustments were considered routine maintenance, along with adjusting the points .
While it is an advancement technically speaking, it has been a giant step backwards educationally speaking.
So now 99.9% of the population have no idea what happen with their vehicles when they turn the key.
Prior to 1964 when mowers changed from points ignition to Hall Effect triggered magnetos the average Joe Blow could tell from the way the mower was running if the capacitor ( condenser to some ) had failed or the points were too wide or were losing up.
So dads would eventually devote a 1/2 to do some mower maintanance.
Remembering that back them a petrol push mower was 3 to 6 months wages so it was worth putting the effort into this, and while he was there he would grease the chassis parts and check all of the nuts & bolts, perhaps even look at the air filter although we had snorkels so, an air filter was good for 10+ years.
Post 1964 mowers no longer required constant attention to the ignition system and owners quickly forgot how to diagnose their mowers performance so now days I only see them when there is no blades left or they won't start.
This situation was made even worse when the Powertorque engine was introduced in 1984 because it requires next to no maintanance so none got done till it took 2 hour of handle pulling to get them to start.
I could not even remember just how many have come into the shop with an impossible to fix mower that they had spent near $1000 on replacing everything that bolts on.
It turns out to be common valve lash.
People are used to modern cars with twin overhead cams fitted with roller rockers, bucket lifters or hydraulic lifters.
These of course never need to adjusted for the life of the vehicle
Fifty years ago monthly adjustments were considered routine maintenance, along with adjusting the points .
While it is an advancement technically speaking, it has been a giant step backwards educationally speaking.
So now 99.9% of the population have no idea what happen with their vehicles when they turn the key.
Prior to 1964 when mowers changed from points ignition to Hall Effect triggered magnetos the average Joe Blow could tell from the way the mower was running if the capacitor ( condenser to some ) had failed or the points were too wide or were losing up.
So dads would eventually devote a 1/2 to do some mower maintanance.
Remembering that back them a petrol push mower was 3 to 6 months wages so it was worth putting the effort into this, and while he was there he would grease the chassis parts and check all of the nuts & bolts, perhaps even look at the air filter although we had snorkels so, an air filter was good for 10+ years.
Post 1964 mowers no longer required constant attention to the ignition system and owners quickly forgot how to diagnose their mowers performance so now days I only see them when there is no blades left or they won't start.
This situation was made even worse when the Powertorque engine was introduced in 1984 because it requires next to no maintanance so none got done till it took 2 hour of handle pulling to get them to start.
#24
N
Normstorm
N
Normstorm
OK Bert I will check the valves again out of curiosity. Ah the old "points and condenser". My first foray into engines was with a lawn mower at thrift shop. Friend convinced me to buy it for $5 saying he knew for sure it was just needing a condenser. We never could get the flywheel off though and he moved away. My dad had few tools so rented a puller at some point and got flywheel off. One $2 condenser later and it worked!
Pretty funny since now I can afford a $20 puller but I'm too cheap to buy one. So on this current "Toro" project I dented the crank shaft threads trying to get the flywheel off by tapping lightly (I thought) with a small hammer. Didn't know about the special "knocker nuts". But now I know how to use a $25 split die to repair 14x1.5 mm threads AND how to drill and tap multiple holes in flywheel in order to use a puller! I wasn't going to tell you guys about that!
Thank god for internet. I actually replaced a $2 oil seal on my Toyota Tacoma a few years ago. Was quoted $2,000. I had to pull the shaft out of the rear differential and a bunch of stuff. Common problem so lots of Utube videos on it. So far so good. Usually seems like I do at least one stupid thing if I try to work on gas engine driven stuff.
Pretty funny since now I can afford a $20 puller but I'm too cheap to buy one. So on this current "Toro" project I dented the crank shaft threads trying to get the flywheel off by tapping lightly (I thought) with a small hammer. Didn't know about the special "knocker nuts". But now I know how to use a $25 split die to repair 14x1.5 mm threads AND how to drill and tap multiple holes in flywheel in order to use a puller! I wasn't going to tell you guys about that!
Thank god for internet. I actually replaced a $2 oil seal on my Toyota Tacoma a few years ago. Was quoted $2,000. I had to pull the shaft out of the rear differential and a bunch of stuff. Common problem so lots of Utube videos on it. So far so good. Usually seems like I do at least one stupid thing if I try to work on gas engine driven stuff.
#25
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
If you are just sorting out a single thread and will probably never need it again then the cheap & cheerful method is to get a nut & cut it in 1/2 length ways .
Sharpen the cut face by rubbing on a stone then clamp it below the damaged section and run it back up .
Do this several times clamping it tighter each time till the thread is restored enough to get the full nut back on.
When removing the flywheel, leave the nut on the crankshaft , just back it off 1 to 2 turns
Put a socket on the nut and strike the socket to break the taper lock.
FWIW I use an air chisel with the point ground round and a couple of builders window wedges under the flywheel
Sharpen the cut face by rubbing on a stone then clamp it below the damaged section and run it back up .
Do this several times clamping it tighter each time till the thread is restored enough to get the full nut back on.
When removing the flywheel, leave the nut on the crankshaft , just back it off 1 to 2 turns
Put a socket on the nut and strike the socket to break the taper lock.
FWIW I use an air chisel with the point ground round and a couple of builders window wedges under the flywheel