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Hey All,
It has been years since I was last here looking for help for Karel (pronounced Care-L), the 2001 Craftsman 42" Riding Lawn Tractor. During that time, have taken excellent care of Karel, and she has reciprocated by being wondrously reliable. It might seem a bit gauche for me to only show up here when there is a problem, but I am not qualified to answer questions, and don't want to waste everyone's time with idle chitchat.

The last time Karel needed help, you all came to her rescue valiantly. Am hoping that the same will happen this time.

Before stating the problem, permit elucidation on WHAT Karel actually is:

Craftsman Model 917.270622
Automatic/42" Cut
Briggs & Stratton
I/C Platinum 15.5 HP OHV Turbo Cool
Model 28U707
Type 1174-E1

Decided that today was going to be the first mowing of 2019.

Removed Karel's Winter Cover.

Put the Battery Charger on Karel's Battery at 6 Amps for one hour. MultiTester said it had 13.12 Volts.

Put fresh fuel into Karel's Gas Tank.

Checked to see if there was fuel in the Fuel Filter. There was.

Checked Karel's Oil. It needed a small amount to bring the level up to FULL.

Pulled the Spark Plug. It was fine, and was reinstalled.

Tried to start the Brigg&Stratton.

Put the Throttle Lever to Choke, and keyed the Starter.

It would crank just fine, but wouldn't fire.

Removed the Air Cleaner. It had been cleaned before putting Karel away last November.

Put a spritz of Starter Fluid into the Carburetor, and keyed the Starter. Karel started right up! BUT as soon as the Starting Fluid was gone, the Engine quit.

So the problem is NOT Spark, or Compression. The problem is that the Engine is NOT getting fuel. Obviously a Carburetor Problem.

Am hoping that there is an easy way to remedy this, and figured that if anyone would know how to do it, it would be you guys here on the LawnMowerForum.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to afford Karel.

Hope this finds you all doing well.

Take care.

JC

JCAllison said:

Hey All,
It has been years since I was last here looking for help for Karel (pronounced Care-L), the 2001 Craftsman 42" Riding Lawn Tractor. During that time, have taken excellent care of Karel, and she has reciprocated by being wondrously reliable. It might seem a bit gauche for me to only show up here when there is a problem, but I am not qualified to answer questions, and don't want to waste everyone's time with idle chitchat.

The last time Karel needed help, you all came to her rescue valiantly. Am hoping that the same will happen this time.

Before stating the problem, permit elucidation on WHAT Karel actually is:

Craftsman Model 917.270622
Automatic/42" Cut
Briggs & Stratton
I/C Platinum 15.5 HP OHV Turbo Cool
Model 28U707
Type 1174-E1

Decided that today was going to be the first mowing of 2019.

Removed Karel's Winter Cover.

Put the Battery Charger on Karel's Battery at 6 Amps for one hour. MultiTester said it had 13.12 Volts.

Put fresh fuel into Karel's Gas Tank.

Checked to see if there was fuel in the Fuel Filter. There was.

Checked Karel's Oil. It needed a small amount to bring the level up to FULL.

Pulled the Spark Plug. It was fine, and was reinstalled.

Tried to start the Brigg&Stratton.

Put the Throttle Lever to Choke, and keyed the Starter.

It would crank just fine, but wouldn't fire.

Removed the Air Cleaner. It had been cleaned before putting Karel away last November.

Put a spritz of Starter Fluid into the Carburetor, and keyed the Starter. Karel started right up! BUT as soon as the Starting Fluid was gone, the Engine quit.

So the problem is NOT Spark, or Compression. The problem is that the Engine is NOT getting fuel. Obviously a Carburetor Problem.

Am hoping that there is an easy way to remedy this, and figured that if anyone would know how to do it, it would be you guys here on the LawnMowerForum.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to afford Karel.

Hope this finds you all doing well.

Take care.

JC

Click to expand...

HMMmm .... sounds like a fuel issue for sure, best advice I would recommend, remove the carb. give it a O/H kit, replace ALL fuel lines, filter, AND fuel shut-off valve, be ABSOLUTELY sure the tank is IMMACULATE, BEFORE you reinstall the rebuilt carb. here's a bit of info to help...

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/#id_briggs

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ybEN0LWo3azl6OUU/edit .. SEE Section 4

keep us up-dated

Boobala said:

HMMmm .... sounds like a fuel issue for sure

Click to expand...

Hey Boobala,
Thanks for the prompt response. As for it being a fuel issue, it IS. No doubt about it.

best advice I would recommend, remove the carb. give it a O/H kit, replace ALL fuel lines, filter,

Click to expand...

Alas, removing, and rebuilding the Carburetor is a bit above my pay grade. This sounds like a job for Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop.

AND fuel shut-off valve

Click to expand...

Have not run across any "fuel shut-off valve".

be ABSOLUTELY sure the tank is IMMACULATE, BEFORE you reinstall the rebuilt carb.

Click to expand...

All right.

Here's a bit of info to help...

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/#id_briggs

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ybEN0LWo3azl6OUU/edit .. SEE Section 4

Click to expand...

All right.

keep us up-dated

Click to expand...

For sure.

Actually, I was hoping against hope that someone here would say: "Oh, THAT happens all the time. And when it does, all you have to do is... (and there would follow some esoteric procedure that would get Karel up&running easily).

It's too bad that Karel has THAT carburetor and not an Autolite 4100 C4AF-9510-DG (which is on Ms. American 3.14159, the only 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-door, Hard-top, Fast-back Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web). Have rebuilt a few 4100s, but they are nothing like the Carburetor on Karel.

Anyway, thanks again for your response. Will probably get Billy to come pick Karel up tomorrow. The Lawn Mower Shop is closed on Mondays.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

JC

A fuel shut-off valve helps a few things, it will let you remove the fuel tank for any purpose (cleanining) when valve is closed, and prevents fuel from filling your engines oil sump if your carb float needle sticks in open position also changing fuel filter with fuel in the tank, just have to remember to turn it on or off....... that wire (center of pic) is my ground wire from the solenoid mounting screw to a place on the the throttle mount bracket (close & convenient)

....

Take the blower housing off
There are 4 bolts that hold it on.

better than average chance that Mr Mouse has been ovewintering under it and had a midnight snack on the wire to the carb solenoid .
When you turn on the ignition you should hear it click or feel it click as it turns on.
Any fuel left in the float bowl can evaporate over winter to a sticky goo which prevents it from opening.
Putting in a tap as Boo mentioned is a very good idea so you can starve the engine off at the end of the season to leave the float bowl empty over winter.

Let us know what you find.

Boobala said:

A fuel shut-off valve helps a few things, it will let you remove the fuel tank for any purpose (cleanining) when valve is closed, and prevents fuel from filling your engines oil sump if your carb float needle sticks in open position (broken fuel solenoid) also changing fuel filter with fuel in the tank, just have to remember to turn it on or off.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. Boobala,
Can see how a "Shut-Off Valve" would be a GREAT thing to have. Alas, Karel doesn't have one. Also the Hose that goes from the bottom of the Fuel Tank to the Fuel Filter goes through a Hole in the Cowl Flange. Will see if Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop has one. Installing it would involve rerouting the Fuel Line from the bottom of the Tank to the Fuel Filter directly TO the Fuel Filter instead of going through the hole in the Cowl Flange (will see if a JPG of this can be had).

that wire (center of pic) is my ground wire from the solenoid mounting screw to a place on the the throttle mount bracket (close & convenient)

Click to expand...

Not understanding this.

JC

bertsmobile1 said:

Take the blower housing off. There are 4 bolts that hold it on. better than average chance that Mr Mouse has been ovewintering under it and had a midnight snack on the wire to the solenoid Boo mentioned previously.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B1,
See that you are in Australia where you have mice. Karel lives in what is called "Deep East Texas", in the largest Pine Tree Forest in the world. The area under the Pine Trees is called "The Big Thicket"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Thicket

which is home to literally thousands of feral cats, thus there are no mice in the area! Don't think that Mr. Mouse is involved in this caper.

When you turn on the ignition you should hear it click or feel it click as it turns on.

Click to expand...

Have never noticed a "click" from a Solenoid, but there IS a substantial "CLICK" when the Starter is keyed. Have always though that it was caused by the Starter Gears engaging. Is it THAT to which you refer? If it is, THAT is all quite well. As mentioned in the original post, the Engine starts easily when spritzed with Starter Fluid.

Any fuel left in the float bowl can evaporate over winter to a sticky goo which prevents it from opening.

Click to expand...

Can see how this might happen, but it has never happened before. Karel came to live with me in 2001. This is the first time in 18 years that she has failed to start right up after being dormant from November to March.

Is there something like an Injector Solvent that could be put into the Carburetor to ameliorate the "sticky goo"? If so, how would one get the Injector Solvent into the Carburetor's Float Bowl?

Let us know what you find.

Click to expand...

Will for sure keep you updated if, when, and as progress occurs.

Thanks for the response. Hope YOU are well. Take care.

JC

Do you have the owners manual ?
If not get one, it is a free download.
We will use it to accurately describe parts so you know exactly what we are talking about.

The carb solenoid I was talking about is part 947 on page 53
According to the wiring diagram on page 33 of the owners manual the fuel shut off solenoid has 2 wires.
One will be + 12 V when the ignition is turned on & the other is ground.
You can check the plug for voltage and the other side for continuity to ground.
This will be easier than pulling the blower housing off.
Take a photo of it as while the plug is handed, it will go in either way but only work one way.
The solenoid holds the float bowl on and is held in place with a 1/2" headed nut so you use a thin 1/2" open ender to pull it off.
When off check for debris in the float bowl and check that the pin in the solenoid retracts fully when the mower is turned on.

Only running on starting fluid is exactly what happens when this valve fails.

bertsmobile1 said:

Do you have the owners manual?

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B1,
Karel was inherited from a friend who passed away in 2001. Unfortunately, no manual was inherited.

If not get one, it is a free download.

Click to expand...

Got it.

We will use it to accurately describe parts so you know exactly what we are talking about.

Click to expand...

All right.

The carb solenoid I was talking about is part 947 on page 53

Click to expand...

Found this. Part 947 is in the lower right hand corner.

According to the wiring diagram on page 33 of the owners manual the fuel shut off solenoid has 2 wires.
One will be + 12 V when the ignition is turned on & the other is ground.

Click to expand...

Found this.

You can check the plug for voltage and the other side for continuity to ground.
This will be easier than pulling the blower housing off.

Click to expand...

Will check on this tomorrow.

Take a photo of it as while the plug is handed, it will go in either way but only work one way.

Click to expand...

All right.

The solenoid holds the float bowl on and is held in place with a 1/2" headed nut so you use a thin 1/2" open ender to pull it off.

Click to expand...

Will see about this tomorrow.

When off check for debris in the float bowl and check that the pin in the solenoid retracts fully when the mower is turned on.

Click to expand...

All right.

Only running on starting fluid is exactly what happens when this valve fails.

Click to expand...

GREAT information. Will check all this tomorrow. Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for taking the time to help us out here.

Take care.

JC

Hey All,
Saturday, March 19, 2019, Afternoon Update:

Took the Key to Karel's Ignition Switch, and turned the Switch to all positions, listening for a "click" at the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. There was none.

Removed the Electrical Plug from the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid, pushed it out of the way.

Set up a Funnel, and Fuel Container to where the Fuel that would come out of the Bowl when the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid was removed would be caught.

Proceeded to remove the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid from the Bowl. It was not all gunked up, and the Plunger goes up and down easily.

Hooked the Electrical Plug to the Solenoid, and turned the Ignition Switch to all positions, and the Plunger didn't retract. Didn't know if the Case has to be grounded, so held the Solenoid's Case against the Bowl, and turned the Ignition Switch to all positions. No click, and no retraction. It appears that the Solenoid is non-functional.

Here are a couple of JPGs of Karel's Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid:



So it appears that the acquisition of a NEW Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid is in order.

In the mean time, have done some research into what to do, and found one YouTube Video that averred that one could cut the Plunger off where it comes out of the Canister, which would make it to where the Engine would run, but one would have to have a Shut-Off Valve to keep Gasoline from leaking into the Oil Sump when the Engine was not running. Doing this would make it to where a NEW Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid could be ordered, and we would still be able to mow the Lawns before they get overgrown, making Karel's task harder for her. Then when the NEW Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid arrived, it could be installed.

Another alternative would be to find out if Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop might have a suitable Unit in stock. Tried to call, but got no answer. Billy apparently has caller ID, for he called me right back, and said that he has New and Used Units in stock. Wants me to bring him the one here on the Bench, and we can see if he has a suitable replacement.

So am out of here for a bit. Will post this, and update this thread upon returning.

JC

Hey All,
Saturday, March 19, 2019, After Afternoon Update:

Have good news, and bad news.

First the good news. Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop tested the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. It is FUNCTIONAL!

The bad news is that we are still on the hunt for why Karel won't Start.

Am going to reinstall the Unit. We'll be back to Square One.

JC

Hey All,
Saturday, March 19, 2019, Late Afternoon Update:

Was looking at the Wiring Diagram on Page 33 of the Owner Manual, and it shows Terminal "L" goes to the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid, and is a Blue Wire. Alas, the wires at the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid are Black and either faded Yellow, or Off-White. Had earlier taken the Plug off of the Ignition Switch, and cleaned the Terminals with a cut down Emery Board. Terminal L was given a bit of special attention, alas all to no avail.

Got out the RadioShack MultiTester and checked the continuity from the Ignition Switch Plug's "L" Terminal, and neither the Off-White or the Black Wires showed continuity.

Then noticed that there was an Electrical Union with a Blue Wire, and a Black Wire at the rear of the Engine. Just on a whim, I pulled that Union apart, and put it back together. Pushed on the Clutch/Brake Pedal, and Keyed the Starter.

WONDER OF WONDERS, KAREL STARTED RIGHT UP!!! (pardon the excitement, will try to calm down). Apparently, THAT Union was not making contact, and all it needed was being reset, and Karel eagerly started right up!

All that has to be done NOW, is to re-fill Karel's (earlier drained) Gas Tank, and she will be ready to MOW!

Am going to take a bit of a break, and then mow the lawns since there is still about three hours of sunlight left, and it only takes about a hour to do all three lawns.

Want to thank everyone here at the Lawn Mower Forum for taking the time, and making the effort to point me in the right direction. Had absolutely NO idea that Karel even had a "Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid". Didn't think of acquiring an "Owners Manual". Was essentially adrift, but "all's well that ends well" (that's Shakespeare).

Have very little expertise in matters of Craftsman Lawn Tractors, and so it is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt. BUT, be assured that if Karel experiences any more glitches, that we will head for the Lawn Mower Forum. You guys are the best. Thanks again.

Take care everyone.

JC

Thanks for the heads up

There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people who are afraid to ask them.
All of the plugs are "Self Cleaning".
So when you suspect an electrical problem,the first thing to do is to unplug then replug all of the plugs.
Saturating them with contact cleaner or WD 40 helps remove corrosion products then a smeer of contact grease over the plug before the final closure helps to stop moisture causing more corrosion.
Mowers suffer more from this than cars as the wiring is a lot more exposed.

bertsmobile1 said:

Thanks for the heads up

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B1,
It appears to have been a bit premature! Karel was running GREAT! Had mowed for about fifteen minutes, and all of a sudden, it was like she ran out off gas. Stopped DEAD! Thought... No problem. Unplugged all the relevant wire, and re-plugged them. Tried to start the old girl, but she was having non of it.

Had a bit of a time getting Karel back to where she normally resides.

There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people who are afraid to ask them.

Click to expand...

Am reticent to ask questions till arriving at the end of what can be thought to do. Then it's time to ask someone who knows what you guys know.

All of the plugs are "Self Cleaning". So when you suspect an electrical problem,the first thing to do is to unplug then replug all of the plugs.

Click to expand...

Will do that tomorrow.

Saturating them with contact cleaner or WD 40 helps remove corrosion products then a smeer of contact grease over the plug before the final closure helps to stop moisture causing more corrosion.

Click to expand...

Since all the corrosion removing products are here, as is the Dielectric Silicone, will be doing this tomorrow when I'm not so fatigued. Am eighty years old, and what I used to do all day, now takes all day to do. Can say with some amount of authority that "Aging is NOT for sissies!".
[/quote]Mowers suffer more from this than cars as the wiring is a lot more exposed.[/QUOTE]
Karel is never exposed the the weather. When she is not in use, she is covered with a sheet of Plastic held down by a Tarp, but you're right that the wiring is a LOT more exposed.

Anyway, am going to go out right now and see if Starting Fluid will make her start and run till the Starter Fluid is gone. That will let me know if it's a Fuel Problem possibly caused by the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. It may be that the functioning of the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid is intermittent.

Did this.

When the Air Filters were taken off, off, there was Gasoline visible in the Air Intake. Depressed the Clutch/Brake, and keyed the Starter, and Gas spewed out. Got all over me. None in my eyes, but my clothes got drenched. As soon as the gas was out of the Air Intake, Karel's Engine would turn a couple of revolutions, and then lock up. It did this a few times, and then of a sudden, the Engine started.

The Foam Wrap around the Pleated Paper Air Filter doesn't look to be very dirty, but am going to clean it to see if THAT may be what is causing the Engine to run too rich. It also may be that the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid is not closing when the Ignition is turned off.

Will let you know how it goes, but right now, I need to take a shower and get the gasoline off of me.

Take care.

JC

Could be intermitted issue with ignition switch. Test for voltage at fuel shutoff switch with ignition in run position. If you get 0 then check the wires for shorts and frays. Then get the experts on here to help test the ignition.

dfbroxy said:

Could be intermitted issue with ignition switch.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. D,
It might be the Ignition Switch, but from what happened since the last post, it is suspected that the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid is the problem.

Test for voltage at fuel shutoff switch with ignition in run position.

Click to expand...

This would be done to the Light Colored Wire, and to any Ground?

If you get 0 then check the wires for shorts and frays.

Click to expand...

All right.

Then get the experts on here to help test the ignition.

Click to expand...

Step by step.

Have BAD News, and WORSE News!

After taking a shower, and putting on clean clothes, went out and checked the Carburetor. The Air Intake was again full of Gasoline.

Used my Cane to hold down the Clutch/Brake Pedal while keying the Starter from a location that if the Gas spewed out, it wouldn't get on me. Cranked the Engine till the flooded condition was over, and the Engine Started right up. The BAD News is that the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid isn't always closing, AND it isn't always opening. That might be because of some electric anomaly, or it might be that the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid is intermittently malfunctioning.

And now for the WORSE News: Checked the Engine Oil Dipstick. The Oil Sump is full of Gasoline!

This situation is like eating a piece of Mule meat... The more it is chewed, the bigger it gets! (some Deep East Texas humor there)

In any case, Karel's Engine will run, but the Fuel Problem is ubiquitous. Am going to have to drain the Oil, and put in NEW Oil.

Am at this moment kind of overwhelmed by the cascading problems. Will check on Karel one more time before retiring for the night.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

Dont want to step on any toes, but dont change oil until problem is fixed and DONT START ENGINE. I think they were right now about the shut off valve, and possibly float valve in carb. But would start with shut off valve.

dfbroxy said:

Dont want to step on any toes, but dont change oil until problem is fixed and DONT START ENGINE.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. Dm
All right.

I think they were right now about the shut off valve, and possibly float valve in carb. But would start with shut off valve.

Click to expand...

Do you mean the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid, or an In-Line Shut-Off Valve?

Tomorrow, will have to be out, and about doing weekly errands, and necessary tasks. Also Thursday will be spent with Health Related Agendas. So will not get back to working on Karel till next Friday. Will take it from there at that time.

JC

The shut off solenoid is not what one would think.
It just shoves a ram up the main jet to stop fuel passing through the jet and into the engine.
It does not stop fuel entering the carb.
Because of EPA regulations carbs no longer have an external drain tube that you can look at dribbleing and say "gees the carb is flooding, better look at the float & needle"
Now days to prevent fuel escaping into the atmosphere, (really worked in your case didn't it) , the float bowl drain is internal.
So the float is not shutting off the fuel supply to the carb.
The fuel level rises then dribbles into the air passage and down into the engine, or all over you.

Do not continue cranking the engine, you will do a lot of damage because petrol does not compress like an air:fuel mix does.

You are back to where you started.
The carb will have to come off for a clean and perhaps a new needle & seat.
It is not a difficult job if you remember to take photos of where everything went before you take them off.
Put a sharpie mark on the throttle control cable & clamp so it goes back in the same spot and take photos of the various wires & springs.

There are full photo instruction here http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/

bertsmobile1 said:

The shut off solenoid is not what one would think.
It just shoves a ram up the main jet to stop fuel passing through the jet and into the engine.
It does not stop fuel entering the carb.
Because of EPA regulations carbs no longer have an external drain tube that you can look at dribbleing and say "gees the carb is flooding, better look at the float & needle"
Now days to prevent fuel escaping into the atmosphere, (really worked in your case didn't it) , the float bowl drain is internal.
So the float is not shutting off the fuel supply to the carb.
The fuel level rises then dribbles into the air passage and down into the engine, or all over you.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B,
Went out this morning, and the Air Intake had Gasoline in it. Pulled the Dipstick, and it had Oil up to the "FULL" Mark, and the rest of the Dipstick was dry. Am now questioning my diagnosis that there was Gasoline in the Oil Stump.

Do not continue cranking the engine, you will do a lot of damage because petrol does not compress like an air:fuel mix does.

Click to expand...

Had yesterday already restarted the Engine twice by cranking it till it cleared being flooded. Am not going to restart it till Karel's issues are resolved.

You are back to where you started.

Click to expand...

Right.

The carb will have to come off for a clean and perhaps a new needle & seat.
It is not a difficult job if you remember to take photos of where everything went before you take them off.
Put a sharpie mark on the throttle control cable & clamp so it goes back in the same spot and take photos of the various wires & springs.

Click to expand...

Actually, at this point in my existence, am not at all confident that I have the ability to do a rebuild of this Carburetor. Have decided that it is a job for Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop. Am going to go visit him after posting this, and see if I can even afford to have him do it.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

Hey All,
Saturday, March 20, 2019, Late-Mid-Afternoon Update:

Just got back from the Lawn Mower Shop, where Billy said that it would be about a month before he could get to fixing Karel. BUT, he did propose an alternative. He said that if I would remove and bring the Carburetor to him, that he would rebuild it in pretty short order, and then I would have to reinstall it.

So the question is: Am I capable of removing and re-installing the Carburetor?

We also discussed putting a NEW Fuel Line replete with a NEW Filter, AND a NEW Fuel Line Shut-Off Valve.

So the task now is figuring out HOW to remove the Carburetor.

Will let you know it goes, if and when it goes.

JC

JCAllison said:

Hey All,
Saturday, March 20, 2019, Late-Mid-Afternoon Update:

Just got back from the Lawn Mower Shop, where Billy said that it would be about a month before he could get to fixing Karel. BUT, he did propose an alternative. He said that if I would remove and bring the Carburetor to him, that he would rebuild it in pretty short order, and then I would have to reinstall it.

So the question is: Am I capable of removing and re-installing the Carburetor?

We also discussed putting a NEW Fuel Line replete with a NEW Filter, AND a NEW Fuel Line Shut-Off Valve.

So the task now is figuring out HOW to remove the Carburetor.

Will let you know it goes, if and when it goes.

JC

Click to expand...

IF ... YOU are going to do this carb removal & replace, FIRST thing you need is your camera take pics (tons of em) of everything you do, it will become your re-assembly manual, especially any LINKAGES & SPRING connection points .. (see examples)

View attachment 43264..View attachment 43265..View attachment 43266..View attachment 43267........

Sometimes the pics DON'T display,.. just click on the attach. #

Go on youtube and search how to rebuild (your type motor and hp) carburator. Does not have to be exact hp. This will give you an idea how its done and what tools you will need. Watch it as many times as needed. After doing this I think you will be surprised how easy it will be for you. Also, the taking pics is a must!!!

Boobala said:

IF ... YOU are going to do this carb removal & replace, FIRST thing you need is your camera take pics (tons of em) of everything you do, it will become your re-assembly manual, especially any LINKAGES & SPRING connection points .. (see examples)

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B,
Came back from seeing Billy, and he expected that I'd have the Carburetor to him in a couple of days. Little did he expect me to find this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o4WzPxI5Ek

I walked back in to the Lawn Mower Shop with the Un-Installed Carburetor within an hour.

He was surprised! His comment was, "Could I start sending YOU my overflow business?"

He said the Carburetor would be ready in a couple of days.

Going to cost $28.00 + Parts. AND we're getting a NEW Fuel Line, a NEW Fuel Filter, and a NEW Shut Off Valve.

Without the above referenced Video, the Unit would have never come off. But, after having worked, since 1975 on Lorrie Van Haul (the last surviving 1967 Dodge P200 Post Office Vehicle out of 3,500 built), and since 1985 on Ms. American 3.14159 (the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back Police Interceptor that GOOGLE finds on the whole World Wide Web), this un&re-install of Karel's Carburetor is easy peasy.

Anyway, am going to be returning all the removed parts back to being pristine. Will let you know how every goes.

Everything happens when it's supposed to happen.

Take care everyone.

JC

If your fingers are not stiff & arthritic then the carb is easy to replace.
Get your parts book and mark off these items in order.
First pull off the fuel line at the carb and drain it into a container.
A pair of needle nosed pliers will make it easier to do.

Then from page 54 remove the air filter and then the trick screw , part # 224
Then the 2 nuts that hold the air filter housing on ( not shown )
The filter housing , part # 875 then slides off the studs towards the back of the mower.
It has a red rubber seal, part # 537 that might be stuck on the carb or remain in the channel in the filter housing.
You will now see 2 smaller nuts, the rear one is difficult to get at but they are not done up very tight.
Before you undo them pull the wires to the solenoid on the bottom of the carb off.
Now undo the two nuts
Some times the entire stud will come out, don't worry about that it makes no difference.
Now the trick roll the carb right to left so that the choke rod, part # 216, page 55 slides out of the slot in the throttle housing part # 222.
Unhook it from the carb and slide it back into the housing so you don't loose it.

This leaves the carb hanging on by the throttle rod . part # 201 & the spring part # 232
The spring has to come off first and tweezers are the right tool, just lift & twist, if it bends a little do not worry about it.
Now you roll the carb . top to bottom to slide it off the bend in the end of the throttle rod # 201 and you are all done

A fair bit ( about 3oz) of fuel will spill out of the carb during this preceedure so put some rag under it & if your skin is sensitive to fuel wear a pair of gloves.

Be careful with the spring # 232 as it is very thin & usually ends up stuck in your finger so use the tweezers.

bertsmobile1 said:

If your fingers are not stiff & arthritic then the carb is easy to replace.
Get your parts book and mark off these items in order.
First pull off the fuel line at the carb and drain it into a container.
A pair of needle nosed pliers will make it easier to do.

Then from page 54 remove the air filter and then the trick screw , part # 224
Then the 2 nuts that hold the air filter housing on ( not shown )
The filter housing , part # 875 then slides off the studs towards the back of the mower.
It has a red rubber seal, part # 537 that might be stuck on the carb or remain in the channel in the filter housing.
You will now see 2 smaller nuts, the rear one is difficult to get at but they are not done up very tight.
Before you undo them pull the wires to the solenoid on the bottom of the carb off.
Now undo the two nuts
Some times the entire stud will come out, don't worry about that it makes no difference.
Now the trick roll the carb right to left so that the choke rod, part # 216, page 55 slides out of the slot in the throttle housing part # 222.
Unhook it from the carb and slide it back into the housing so you don't loose it.

This leaves the carb hanging on by the throttle rod . part # 201 & the spring part # 232
The spring has to come off first and tweezers are the right tool, just lift & twist, if it bends a little do not worry about it.
Now you roll the carb . top to bottom to slide it off the bend in the end of the throttle rod # 201 and you are all done

A fair bit ( about 3oz) of fuel will spill out of the carb during this preceedure so put some rag under it & if your skin is sensitive to fuel wear a pair of gloves.

Be careful with the spring # 232 as it is very thin & usually ends up stuck in your finger so use the tweezers.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B,
All of this was done a bit earlier in the day. The Carburetor came out quite easily, and was delivered to Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop (as reported earlier). Am confident that it will all go back together as easily. Will just have to wait and see. Thanks for the details of the procedure. It will be a few days before the Carburetor is scheduled to be back.

Today will be almost totally occupied with a trip to the Clinic for health reasons. But the other items on today's agenda involves the cleaning of all the removed parts.

Will keep you all updated if, when, and as progress occurs.

Take care.

JC

Hey All,
Have just finished un-installing Karel's Gas Tank.

Have started draining Karel's Oil. The occasion is such that the draining can be left in progress till the Carburetor is returned from Billy at the Lawn Mower Shop.

Is there reason to clean out the Oil Sump somehow? If there is, what is the recommended procedure?

Have spent much of the morning cleaning the Air Filter Housing and all the parts that had to be removed to un-install the Carburetor. Everything looks really nice.

Would like to remove the Ignition Switch to clean the Spade Connectors. Did that some time ago, but don't remember how to remove it. Will have to figure that out again as was done last time.

At this point, am awaiting the return of the Carburetor. Will keep you all updated if, when, and as progress occurs.

JC

Hey All,
Thought that it might be efficacious to get the materials and items to connect Karel's Gas Tank to the Carburetor, and in addition to a NEW Fuel Filter, wanted to get a Fuel Shut-Off Valve. So off Lorrie and I went to the Lawn Mower Shop. Walked into the establishment, and Billy said: "If you can hang in here for another twenty minutes, your Carburetor will be ready." So I got to watch a virtuoso Lawn Mower Mechanic work on the Carburetor. It looks GREAT! Got some more Fuel Line, and the aforementioned Fuel Filter, and Shut-Off Valve, and all I had to do is give Billy $65.11, and he let me leave without stopping me!

Am kind of over-done for the day, but we'll be out tomorrow installing the NEWLY rebuilt Carburetor, and then we'll see if Karel will run.

Will keep you all updated if, when, and as progress occurs. Will get some JPGs of the Installation.

Take care everyone.

JC

Try & find a spot for the tap on the fuel tank side of everything so whenever you need to service the filter or pump ( if you have one ) you just turn off the tap, makes life so easy.

bertsmobile1 said:

Try & find a spot for the tap on the fuel tank side of everything so whenever you need to service the filter or pump ( if you have one ) you just turn off the tap, makes life so easy.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B,
Was wondering where to put the Shut-Off Valve. Had decided, as you suggested, to put it between the Fuel Tank, and the Fuel Filter. Your suggestion confirms that THAT would be the logical place. Will be making up that Fuel Line this morning, along with cleaning the Gas Tank.

Another question: Valvoline 5W40 Racing Oil is used in Ms. American, the 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, and have a case of it. Would this be a suitable Oil to put in Karel? Have always used Pennzoil 30 weight. Can acquire THAT easily, but not as easily as the 5W40 that is already here on the Shelf.

Next question: What all is involved with tuning the Carburetor? It has only one Adjusting Screw. Is THAT all? Not anywhere near as as complex as an Autolite 4100, which has all kinds of adjustments that must be made.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Should have Karel all back together today, and will see if she will percolate. Will let you know how it goes, with JPGs.

JC

You have just opened a can of worms with that one.
Using 5W 40 will not hurt your mower.
It is not as good as proper mower oil, but if it makes things easier at your end the use it.
The caveat is you really should change it at the end of every season, just after you have done your last mow of the season so the engine has nice clean oil in there over winter.
The main difference between mower oil & car oil is the anti corrosion package.
If the oil you have for your car has high zinc ( and it should ) it will be fine for your mower.
Being a 5W oil, it will tend to find every possible exit point but as long as you check the oil level before you mow ( and every one should always do that ) it should not be a problem.

Back when i was running hire cars, courier bikes & vans we were drowning in 5 different oils.
My business partner made an executive decision to buy 20W 50 in a 44 gallon drum and just change the oil a little more often.
We did about 10,000km / year with each RR hire cars, 120,000 km / with most vans ( toyota, mitsubishi & nissan ) and about 150,000km / year on the motorcycles.
There were no oil related problems from any of them over the following 13 years and we saved a fortune on oil & more important time running to the parts store buying drums of 5 different oils.

Now days my van runs on mower oil because I buy it in 44 gallon drums, & it gets an oil change every 3 months.
Apart from being a little noisy on start up and a few drips it has not given me any problems over the past 6 years.

With oil the most important thing is how long it has been in there , what was in there comes in a close second.

bertsmobile1 said:

You have just opened a can of worms with that one.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. B,
Just one among a goodly number of them here.

Using 5W 40 will not hurt your mower. It is not as good as proper mower oil, but if it makes things easier at your end the use it.

Click to expand...

Decided on getting a couple of quarts of Pennzoil 30W. It's what Karel is used to.

The caveat is you really should change it at the end of every season, just after you have done your last mow of the season so the engine has nice clean oil in there over winter.

Click to expand...

All right.

The main difference between mower oil & car oil is the anti corrosion package. If the oil you have for your car has high zinc (and it should ) it will be fine for your mower.

Click to expand...

It says right on the Valvoline Racing Oil Bottle that it has "Zinc". Ms. American, the Ford Galaxie has solid lifters, and Zinc is good for them.

Being a 5W oil, it will tend to find every possible exit point but as long as you check the oil level before you mow ( and every one should always do that ) it should not be a problem.

Click to expand...

Right. I have a routine for starting, and it included checking the Oil Level and bringing it up to "Full".

Back when i was running hire cars, courier bikes & vans we were drowning in 5 different oils.
My business partner made an executive decision to buy 20W 50 in a 44 gallon drum and just change the oil a little more often.
We did about 10,000km / year with each RR hire cars, 120,000 km / with most vans ( toyota, mitsubishi & nissan ) and about 150,000km / year on the motorcycles.
There were no oil related problems from any of them over the following 13 years and we saved a fortune on oil & more important time running to the parts store buying drums of 5 different oils.

Now days my van runs on mower oil because I buy it in 44 gallon drums, & it gets an oil change every 3 months.
Apart from being a little noisy on start up and a few drips it has not given me any problems over the past 6 years.

With oil the most important thing is how long it has been in there , what was in there comes in a close second.

Click to expand...

Have an interesting story about Ms. American, and Lorrie Van Haul's Lubricating System, but it will have to wait, because right now, there is the account of what has happened to Karel that needs to be written.

Got the Carburetor reinstalled this morning, along with a NEW Fuel Line, NEW Fuel Filter, and NEW Shut-Off Valve. See HERE:


Got the Choke Linkage adjusted. Three JPGs first one with the Choke Activated:

Second one with Throttle in RUN position:

Third one with Throttle in OFF position.

Then it was off to get the Pennzoil. Got back and it put into the Briggs&Stratton. Put in about a quarter Tank of Gas.

Then came the moment of TRVTH. Opened the NEW Shut-Off Valve. Watched the NEW Gasoline run into the NEW Fuel Filter. Depressed the Clutch/Brake Pedal. Set the Throttle for Choke. Keyed the Starter. Karel STARTED RIGHT UP! She ran for about ten seconds sounding a little anemic. Then she QUIT, and would not start again. She cranked just fine, but wouldn't run.

Unplugged and re-plugged the Ignition Switch Connections, the Blue Wire Connector, and the Fuel Cut-Off Connector on the bottom of the Carburetor. Tried to start Karel again. Alas, to no avail.

Then seeing as to how it got to looking like it would like to rain, decided to put the Plastic Sheet and Tarp over Karel, put everything away, and come in to write this missive.

We're back to Square Number One.

In the meantime, the Lawns are growing at an alarming rate, although before Karel quit the other day, we DID mow the West and North Lawns, and a bit of the East Lawn. It just so happens that the Lawn to the East of my place isn't MY property. It is a County Easement that I've been mowing since 1989, but it might not get mowed this year.

Anyway, we've spent four days, and nearly $100.00, and Karel hasn't responded. What to do?

Suggestions are welcome.

JC

Hey All,
Went out this morning, removed the Tarp and Plastic Cover from Karel, took off the Air Filter, opened the NEW Fuel Shut-Off Valve, set the Throttle at the RUN position, gave the Air Intake a spritz of Starting Fluid, and keyed the Starter. Karel started right up, ran somewhat erratically for about ten second and then died. Would not start again even with another spritz of Starting Fluid. It was previously stated that this is an indication that there is no Fuel in the Float Bowl because the Solenoid is not retracting.

QUESTION: Could the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid be tested by removing it, putting the Electrical Connection back in the Solenoid, and turn the Ignition Key to Run, and see if the Shaft in the Solenoid would retract?

Have already done this, and got no retraction. There MIGHT be another reason that this procedure wouldn't give any results, but the Electrical Connection has its own Ground, and am assuming that it has Electricity. Cannot see why the above test wouldn't work, but then again, what do I know?

Have found numerous accounts of people having this same problem, and solving it by cutting off the Shaft in the Solenoid so that the Solenoid's only function becomes holding the Float Bowl onto the Carburetor.

QUESTION: Can Electricity to the Plug that goes into the Solenoid be checked with a MultiTester with the Red Probe in the Pale Colored Wire Port, and the Black Probe in the Black Colored Wire Port, or to a Ground somewhere on the Engine?

Am going to go do this. Will let you know the results. Have just finished doing this test. The MultiTester showed that the Plug that goes into the Solenoid is getting 12.18 Volts. BUT when that Plug is attached to the Solenoid, it does NOTHING. Just double checked this, and got NO RETRACTION.

Am going to order a NEW Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. In the meantime, am going to use a Craftsman RotoTool and a Cut Off Wheel to cut off the Shaft of the OLD Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid to see if THAT will let the Briggs&Stratton run. I know that this is NOT the PROPER&CORRECT thing to do, but if it works, the lawns here can get mowed before they get too overgrown. and will replace the OLD Solenoid with the NEW Solenoid when it gets here. Will let you know how it goes.

JC

Hey All,
Got out the Craftsman RotoTool, and a Cut-Off Wheel, gripped the end of the Shaft of the Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid with a Small Vise-Grip, and cut the Solenoid Shaft off even with the Threads on the Solenoid. Reinstalled the Float Bowl, and Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. Connected the Electrical (which doesn't do anything) to the Solenoid. Thought about taking a nap, but instead decided to see if Karel would Start&Run.

Put the Throttle in Choke Position, Keyed the Starter, and KAREL STARTED RIGHT UP! Put the Throttle in the Run Position, and the anemic running took about ten seconds to clear, and Karel began sounding healthier and stronger (probably due to the rebuilt Carburetor which was probably not needed in the first place), than the last time that she was running.

Have logical-ized the reason why Karel would start after sitting overnight, but not run: Fuel would leak past the Solenoid and there would be fuel in the Float Bowl. Karel would START, but the amount of fuel in the Float Bowl would soon be expended, and that would kill the Engine.

So Karel now has NEW Pennzoil 30 weight Oil, NEW Fuel Filter, NEW Fuel Line Shut Off Valve, NEW Fuel Line, NEW Needle&Seat, and a NEW Nylon Fuel Inlet Fitting on the Carburetor.

Am going to fill Karel's Fuel Tank, take a bit of a break, and then see if Karel will mow the lawns. Will let you know how it goes.

JC

Hey All,
The East Lawn has been mowed. Karel never missed a beat! This is the first time of the thirty-first year that the lawns here have been mowed, and the eighteenth year that Karel has done the deed. Am taking a break, and then will take the Leaf Blower out and clean all the trimmings off of her. She seems to be feeling REALLY good. So am I.

Again, want to thank everyone here for the assistance and encouragement.

Anyway, hope you have a GREAT what is left of the weekend. I'm going to finish cleaning Karel and take the rest of the day off.

Take care.

JC

Glad everything worked out for you.
Weather been kinda strange here of late, looks like rain, stop working on fence. Nothing happens, work on fence little rain, pack and call it a day.
Tom

Pumper54 said:

Glad everything worked out for you.

Click to expand...

Hey Mr. P,
Early on in this thread, the comment was made that the symptom of Karel starting with Starter Fluid, but not running after the Starter Fluid was used up could be a non-functioning Fuel Cut-Off Solenoid. That diagnosis was spot ON. And it was made a bit strange when Billy, at the Lawn Mower Shop tested the Solenoid, and it worked! So we proceeded from there. Rebuilt Carburetor, NEW Fuel Line, NEW Fuel Filter, NEW Fuel Shut-Off Valve, NEW Oil. Intermittent malfunctions are hard as heck to diagnose. Won't work when it's needed. Will work when tested. Go figure.

Weather been kinda strange here of late, looks like rain, stop working on fence. Nothing happens, work on fence little rain, pack and call it a day. Tom

Click to expand...

Same here. AND... it can happen at most inopportune times.

Anyway, "All's well that ends well." (Shakespeare) Have Karel all cleaned of trimmings with the Leaf Blower, covered with Plastic and a Tarp, and everything packed up, and like YOU, am calling it a day.

Take care.

JC