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Rebuilt engine hard to turn over, but then loosens up?
#1
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
Bob
#3
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Remove the belts and a clutch if it has it and the spark plugs. Then try to turn engine over by hand. If it is still tight for a couple revolutions you have a problem in the engine.
#4
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Wouldn't it be flooded then? Starts right up after I spin it.Sounds exactly what happens when the float valve fails & you get a hydro lock
#5
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I'll try that today if I get time.Remove the belts and a clutch if it has it and the spark plugs. Then try to turn engine over by hand. If it is still tight for a couple revolutions you have a problem in the engine.
#6
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Checked out my mower this morning. Turned the key and it spun right over and started. Took the plugs out to look at them and it wouldn't crank over (plugs we're out). I started it off and on during the morning and it started right up. After lunch it wouldn't crank, turned it over with a ratchet a couple of times and it loosened up and started right away.
It's not hydrolock there's no gas in the cylinders when it won't crank.
I don't know what to think. When I first started it after the overhaul it cranked over right away.
If I pull the engine what should I look for. The only thing I can think of is the connecting rods are torqued too much. Pistons slid in the cylinder with ease.
Bob
It's not hydrolock there's no gas in the cylinders when it won't crank.
I don't know what to think. When I first started it after the overhaul it cranked over right away.
If I pull the engine what should I look for. The only thing I can think of is the connecting rods are torqued too much. Pistons slid in the cylinder with ease.
Bob
#7
thesilentone
thesilentone
Most engines stop in exactly the same position no matter the revs they are stopped at. This is usually with the exhaust valve open, as many will know, as the valve can stick open if left for a long time.
Maybe the tighter piston rings has changed that stop position, and the valves are closed, so your engine maybe trying to start under immediate compression ?
My take on it would be to continue for now, and see if they wear in slightly and return to the original stop position.
Maybe the tighter piston rings has changed that stop position, and the valves are closed, so your engine maybe trying to start under immediate compression ?
My take on it would be to continue for now, and see if they wear in slightly and return to the original stop position.
#8
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
First make sure nothing attached ti the PTO if the engine is causing the binding. If engine still is tight with the plugs removed then you probably either have a rod on crank problem or a top or bottom crank bearing issue. Assuming everything else in the motor is correct.
#9
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I decided to pull the bottom on it next week and check that everything is correct. I removed the belts and pulleys off the pto end, it was still hard to turn.
Bob
Bob
#12
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
What is the model, code and type info on the engine?
#13
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
It's a B&S 22hp V Twin model 407777-0274-G5. I figured out what the problem is. The #1 connecting rod is too tight when torqued to 100 in-lbs, I can barely turn it when torqued to 50. It turns out the service manual I was given was the wrong one. So, I torqued the cap to 150 in-lbs. Is it possible to distort the cap and cause the problem.
Bob
Bob
#14
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
Is that a new rod or the old one.
Have you heard of using plastigauge? (to check clearances)You can review such on-line.
You will probably have to try another rod (new rod) and then use plastigauge to check the clearances since you now know it's the issue.
You can test another rod without it being connected to a piston at first.
See pg 2 section 13 of the CORRECT Briggs service manual.
See #4
Make sure the rod cap match marks are aligned. (rod cap not backwards)
Have you heard of using plastigauge? (to check clearances)You can review such on-line.
You will probably have to try another rod (new rod) and then use plastigauge to check the clearances since you now know it's the issue.
You can test another rod without it being connected to a piston at first.
See pg 2 section 13 of the CORRECT Briggs service manual.
See #4
Make sure the rod cap match marks are aligned. (rod cap not backwards)
#15
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
What kind of marks are you talking about? I'll have to look at it. They only fit on one way. All my plasti gauge is old I'll have to buy some new. I found a new connecting rod for less than $20.
Bob
Bob
#16
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I actually found some plasti gauge. It shows clearance is less than 0.002". I measured the crank at 1.495" and the rod at 1.498". With a micrometer and snap gauge. Do you know what the clearance is supposed to be?
Bob
Bob
#17
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
.0025" is what i like to see.
Take the rod and torque the cap down not on the crank and measure top to bottom and side to side and see if the measurements are equal.
Take the rod and torque the cap down not on the crank and measure top to bottom and side to side and see if the measurements are equal.
#19
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
Also mic the crank throw. If you cannot see out of round using your mic's
try to confirm that both are not out of round (egg shaped)
might even try confirming clearances up/down, side to side is not out of round using the plastigauge and do the same with your new rod.
You indicated that you over torqued the rod caps due to using the wrong specs.
Wondering how much torque you used?
Did you also over torque the other rod cap?
try to confirm that both are not out of round (egg shaped)
might even try confirming clearances up/down, side to side is not out of round using the plastigauge and do the same with your new rod.
You indicated that you over torqued the rod caps due to using the wrong specs.
Wondering how much torque you used?
Did you also over torque the other rod cap?
#20
StarTech
StarTech
I was taught to always mark the rods and caps as to both the cylinder number and orientation. This marking is what the service manual refers to. I don't see the service saying to mark these on this engine but it should be done whenever parts are being reused. This is old school techinque but it works. This why I have a number stamp set here. Even scribe marks are better than nothing at times.
#21
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Both rod caps were over torqued to 150 in-lbs. I know what you mean now by making sure the rod caps were put on right. Figured out what marks you were talking about. I have been putting them on correct. I marked the caps as to which rod the belonged to as soon as I removed each. And I always put the cap on the rod as soon as I have the piston out.
Bob
Bob
#22
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
In my statement, put the rod caps on correctly per the mark is a from the Service manual page that I posted previously.
On older equipment the rod caps were actually numbered from the factory as to orientation and even the cylinder number.
I always put witness marks on rod caps and stamp the cylinder number on the cap and the rod.
Good catch before something exploded, on it possibly being a rod/crank fit issue. Gets costly now days doing a standard ring re-placement on those engines. I have a OHV twin that runs really good but consumes lots of oil due to someone leaving the breather tube disconnected from behind the carb and the engine sucked lots of grit inside during use. When the breather tube is not re-connected the air intake is right into the carb throat, no filtering.
On older equipment the rod caps were actually numbered from the factory as to orientation and even the cylinder number.
I always put witness marks on rod caps and stamp the cylinder number on the cap and the rod.
Good catch before something exploded, on it possibly being a rod/crank fit issue. Gets costly now days doing a standard ring re-placement on those engines. I have a OHV twin that runs really good but consumes lots of oil due to someone leaving the breather tube disconnected from behind the carb and the engine sucked lots of grit inside during use. When the breather tube is not re-connected the air intake is right into the carb throat, no filtering.
#23
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I was going to stamp the number on the cap, but since they were aluminum I was hesitant. I did use my machinist scribe to put the number on though. I've built quite a few auto engines in the past, but it's been a while on a lawnmower engine. I should have purchased a service manual right away. I'm going to get measurements on the crank and rod this afternoon.
Bob
Bob
#25
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
according to the briggs website that model # is an Intek V-twin
#27
StarTech
StarTech
P
Working uploading to https://www.manualslib.com but that take a few days at least and their approval.
Currently someone has a 273521 listed but it is not the correct manual as it is for an Intek single engine.
PN 273521. But you should find it online or a have member here to send you copy. I know at least 4 members that has access to the PDF copy. Besides it is much to search the PDF than the paper manual.Do you happen to know what the service manual number is. I'm going to buy one?
Bob
Working uploading to https://www.manualslib.com but that take a few days at least and their approval.
Currently someone has a 273521 listed but it is not the correct manual as it is for an Intek single engine.
#28
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I removed the crankshaft from the engine block so I could more accurate measurements. Both journals on the crank measure 1.498", measure each at 90 degrees from each other. I only have a set of snap(telescoping) gauges to take measurement on the rod/cap, as you can see by the measurement there not accurate. Used the same micrometer to measure the snap gauges as I did the crank journals. I took three measurement on the rod/cap #1(problem one) 1.497, 1.498 and 1.497. Put the #1 rod/piston on the crank and torqued to specs just for the heck of it and it was tight. #2 rod/cap were 1.497, 1.497 and 1.497.
I put the #2 rod/piston on the crank and torqued it down it moved firmly on the crank journal on both #1 and #2 spots. I'm going to buy a new rod/cap tomorrow.
Wish I had an inside micrometer for the cap/rods.
Just for curiousity, I going to plastigage both connecting rods now that I've taken the crank out.
I did find the right service manual as a free download using the B&S part number.
Bob
I put the #2 rod/piston on the crank and torqued it down it moved firmly on the crank journal on both #1 and #2 spots. I'm going to buy a new rod/cap tomorrow.
Wish I had an inside micrometer for the cap/rods.
Just for curiousity, I going to plastigage both connecting rods now that I've taken the crank out.
I did find the right service manual as a free download using the B&S part number.
Bob
#29
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
Plastigauge is your friend in this instance, when used correctly.
Now: The engine was running ok before teardown. what caused the change? (maybe rod cap distortion due to torque or ???)
You need to check and keep a heads up on the end play of the crankshaft. I check crankshaft end play before taking them apart.
I keep crankshaft end play to the bare minimum specs.
Now: The engine was running ok before teardown. what caused the change? (maybe rod cap distortion due to torque or ???)
You need to check and keep a heads up on the end play of the crankshaft. I check crankshaft end play before taking them apart.
I keep crankshaft end play to the bare minimum specs.
#30
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
The engine ran good before teardown. But, it was using a quart of oil in less than two hours of mowing. I believe over torquing the caps caused the problem with the #1 rod/cap, but why didn't it cause a problem with #2. I found a Starrett (first one was a no name) snap gauge and another micrometer for comparison. I wish I knew what the original diameter of the crankshaft journals were for comparison. I'm going to plastigage the rod/caps tomorrow. Just wish I knew why the crank journals measure at 1.498 and the #2 rod at 1.497 and it still moves on the crank when torqued down.
Hopefully tomorrow when I plastigage them I can figure something out.
Bob
Hopefully tomorrow when I plastigage them I can figure something out.
Bob
#31
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I had time this morning to plastigage the #1 connecting rod. I did it 4 times on the cap, rod and on each side, all four measured 0.0015". I also did #2 twice and it measured 0.002". I also did three measurement with the Starrett snap gauge and got 1.497, 1.498 and 1.497.
I believe the crankshaft journal diameter is 1.498 from the factory. Do you think it's possible that there is a twist in the cap making it tight enough not to rotate. Yet still gave consistent measurements with the plastigage?
I'm going to order one new connecting rod.
Bob
I believe the crankshaft journal diameter is 1.498 from the factory. Do you think it's possible that there is a twist in the cap making it tight enough not to rotate. Yet still gave consistent measurements with the plastigage?
I'm going to order one new connecting rod.
Bob
#32
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
If you have some prussian blue or dykem blue coat the entire inside of the rod and install and torque the cap on and twist the rod just a couple degrees and then carefully remove it and you should be able to see any tight spots where it rubbed.
#34
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
You must be a machinist.I have both. I'll try that tomorrow.
Bob
#36
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I have a 4" Atlas lathe. Haven't done much with it in the last few years. Last thing i turned was a set of wedding bands from a bar if titanium. The guy got it as a cutoff from where he worked. Stuff was an absolute pain in the butt to turn.
#37
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
I DO THIS TO MOST 4 CYCLE small ENGINES BEFORE I TAKE THEM APART. (doing so gives me a heads up of how much I will need to bring them to minimum specs on the crank end play) I've even seen some of the Briggs at the upper end of the crank specs (still within Briggs specs) and they would have a knock due to too much end play.
Test/check this when re-assembling the engine. I rig a dial indicator at the end of the crankshaft, usually the pto end and gently pry the crank back and forth to get an accurate reading. I then take the crank end play specs to minimum.
When you first get the engine back together check the crankshaft end play.
If you detect a tight spot with the crank/engine setting vertical in running position) try raising up on the vertical crank and see if it makes any difference.
Test/check this when re-assembling the engine. I rig a dial indicator at the end of the crankshaft, usually the pto end and gently pry the crank back and forth to get an accurate reading. I then take the crank end play specs to minimum.
When you first get the engine back together check the crankshaft end play.
If you detect a tight spot with the crank/engine setting vertical in running position) try raising up on the vertical crank and see if it makes any difference.
#38
U
unioncreek
Bob
U
unioncreek
I started with a HF 8 x 14,. Did quite a bit with it, just wasn't long enough. Bought the 10" Atlas for $300, it has a 48" bed. Right now I'm building a wood pellet mill (we heat with wood pellets) I don't get much time to work on it with everything else going on. I retire from work 18 months ago, had to go back to work, due to the economy.. I work for a farmer April thru Nov.I have a 4" Atlas lathe. Haven't done much with it in the last few years. Last thing i turned was a set of wedding bands from a bar if titanium. The guy got it as a cutoff from where he worked. Stuff was an absolute pain in the butt to turn.
Bob
#39
U
unioncreek
Bob
U
unioncreek
I will do that when I get to that stage. My connecting rod should be here in about a week.Test/check this when re-assembling the engine. I rig a dial indicator at the end of the crankshaft, usually the pto end and gently pry the crank back and forth to get an accurate reading. I then take the crank end play specs to minimum.
When you first get the engine back together check the crankshaft end play.
If you detect a tight spot with the crank/engine setting vertical in running position) try raising up on the vertical crank and see if it makes any difference.
Bob
#40
U
unioncreek
Bob
U
unioncreek
The repair manual doesn't give a procedure to adjust the crankshaft end play. How do you adjust it?I DO THIS TO MOST 4 CYCLE small ENGINES BEFORE I TAKE THEM APART. (doing so gives me a heads up of how much I will need to bring them to minimum specs on the crank end play) I've even seen some of the Briggs at the upper end of the crank specs (still within Briggs specs) and they would have a knock due to too much end play.
Test/check this when re-assembling the engine. I rig a dial indicator at the end of the crankshaft, usually the pto end and gently pry the crank back and forth to get an accurate reading. I then take the crank end play specs to minimum.
When you first get the engine back together check the crankshaft end play.
If you detect a tight spot with the crank/engine setting vertical in running position) try raising up on the vertical crank and see if it makes any difference.
Bob
#41
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
By adding more sump gaskets
The gasket kit should have come with 3 different thicknesses gaskets
The gasket kit should have come with 3 different thicknesses gaskets
#42
U
unioncreek
I tried the Dykem and it didn't show anything. Torqued it down to 50 in-lbs, so I could still move it. Turned it about 1/8 of a revolution. I think maybe the crank is too smooth for transfer.
Bob
U
unioncreek
OK thats why there are extra gaskets.By adding more sump gaskets
The gasket kit should have come with 3 different thicknesses gaskets
I tried the Dykem and it didn't show anything. Torqued it down to 50 in-lbs, so I could still move it. Turned it about 1/8 of a revolution. I think maybe the crank is too smooth for transfer.
Bob
#43
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
No shiny spots on the rod?
#45
shadetree#1
shadetree#1
When the end play of the crank is excessive using the thin sump gasket which is usually .015 Briggs mentioned in some of their old service manuals to use a shim kit and shim the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
This is one of the reasons I measure the crank end play BEFORE removing the sump.
Shimming is not mentioned in any of their later service manuals that I have seen.
I make my own shims from shim stock.
One reason that Briggs recommended shimming the flywheel end of the crankshaft is probably? due to a engine's counterbalance clearance at the sump plate. (and on a vertical shaft engine the crankshaft shim being located at the flywheel end is not exposed to the rotating vertical weight of the flywheel/crank weight which reduces the wear factor on the shim)
I'm not saying that this is your issue but I would check such because if the crank has end play the rod is attempting to slide sides ways at the piston and crank.
I'm wondering:???
You indicated in one of your previous posts that you could seize the rod on the crank journal by just torqueing the rod cap, but it appears that now you are indicating the plasti gauge indicates it's ok and the rod does not seize when the cap is torqued to proper specs?????
If this is what you are indicating, WHAT CHANGED the symptoms????
This is one of the reasons I measure the crank end play BEFORE removing the sump.
Shimming is not mentioned in any of their later service manuals that I have seen.
I make my own shims from shim stock.
One reason that Briggs recommended shimming the flywheel end of the crankshaft is probably? due to a engine's counterbalance clearance at the sump plate. (and on a vertical shaft engine the crankshaft shim being located at the flywheel end is not exposed to the rotating vertical weight of the flywheel/crank weight which reduces the wear factor on the shim)
I'm not saying that this is your issue but I would check such because if the crank has end play the rod is attempting to slide sides ways at the piston and crank.
I'm wondering:???
You indicated in one of your previous posts that you could seize the rod on the crank journal by just torqueing the rod cap, but it appears that now you are indicating the plasti gauge indicates it's ok and the rod does not seize when the cap is torqued to proper specs?????
If this is what you are indicating, WHAT CHANGED the symptoms????
#46
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
he had over torqued them originallyWhen the end play of the crank is excessive using the thin sump gasket which is usually .015 Briggs mentioned in some of their old service manuals to use a shim kit and shim the flywheel end of the crankshaft.
This is one of the reasons I measure the crank end play BEFORE removing the sump.
Shimming is not mentioned in any of their later service manuals that I have seen.
I make my own shims from shim stock.
One reason that Briggs recommended shimming the flywheel end of the crankshaft is probably? due to a engine's counterbalance clearance at the sump plate. (and on a vertical shaft engine the crankshaft shim being located at the flywheel end is not exposed to the rotating vertical weight of the flywheel/crank weight which reduces the wear factor on the shim)
I'm not saying that this is your issue but I would check such because if the crank has end play the rod is attempting to slide sides ways at the piston and crank.
I'm wondering:???
You indicated in one of your previous posts that you could seize the rod on the crank journal by just torqueing the rod cap, but it appears that now you are indicating the plasti gauge indicates it's ok and the rod does not seize when the cap is torqued to proper specs?????
If this is what you are indicating, WHAT CHANGED the symptoms????
#47
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
They plastigage indicated clearance is 0.0015 on the #1 rod. Still of I torqued rod cap to even 50 in-lbs I can barely move it. At 100 in-lbs I can't move it.
Dykem didn't show any place where is was rubbing.
The new rod should arrive shortly and I go from there then.
Dykem didn't show any place where is was rubbing.
The new rod should arrive shortly and I go from there then.
#48
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Received my new connecting rod today. Used the micrometer and snap gauge to check the diameter, it was right at 1.500. Checked it with plastigage and clearance was 0.002". Cleaned up the journal and connecting rod and assembled it on the crankshaft. Torqued it to 100 in-lbs and it turned nice and smooth. I have the engine assembled and will try and make time to install it on the mower and run it. I will keep you posted. That was a cheap enough repair, connecting rod costme $15.00 and $9.00 to ship. Took three days to get here.
Bob
Bob
#49
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
good deal. hope it works out for you,
#50
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Put my engine in my mower this morning. Cranked it for a bit to get the oil in the system. Put the sparkplug wires on and it fired right up. Started it five time throughout the day and it started every time. I'm sure it will start up tomorrow. I'm about a month away from lawn mowing.
How much oil does that engine hold. The manual says 2 quarts, I ended up putting 2 3/4 quarts inthat put it just slightly past the full line.
Bob
How much oil does that engine hold. The manual says 2 quarts, I ended up putting 2 3/4 quarts inthat put it just slightly past the full line.
Bob
#51
T
TRACTORTOWN
T
TRACTORTOWN
Stop! Don’t reopen the engine. Reset the valve lash. The clearance has widen and the compression release is not opening up enough to bleed some out. Common Briggs issue. Easy fix. When running new and rebuilt engines valve lash should always be checked and adjusted after initial run in.I have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#52
W
Walt 2002
Walt Conner
W
Walt 2002
First, Welcome, second, He said ring gap was correct and too tight a ring gap does not fit his scenario.Too tight of a ring gap
Walt Conner
#53
D
Dan Swartz
D
Dan Swartz
I have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#54
M
mervcasteel
M
mervcasteel
the rings have to "seat" with the cylinder walls , completely normal . will free up as rings seatI have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#57
J
Johner
J
Johner
Have a question I didn't see asked, How does the crank turn over with not pistons hooked up? Did you use slandered or over size rings? very intriguing problem. Hope I don't miss the answer
#58
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Problem is solved. The #1 connecting rod clearance was not enough and it would tighten up enough on the crank journal when torqued to specs that made it very hard to turn. Bought a new rod, installed it and engine is running good. Had nothing to do with valves or piston rings.
Bob
Bob
#59
E
elmrfudd
E
elmrfudd
I'm guessing a malfunction of the internal decompression lever/spring or improper valve clearances. Improper clearances will give a kickback effect much like hydro lock. Recheck all valve clearances at TDC. Most B&S engines can be set at .005" for intake and exhaust, but check manufacturer specs to be sure.
#60
C
cubz
C
cubz
It's nice when people offer their 2 bits but, WOW, MAYBE READ THE WHOLE THREAD BEFORE CHIMING IN....
#61
Dreaded
Dreaded
Did you use a ring grove cleaning tool to clean the ring groves before installing the rings? If you did not it may be the rings to tight after sitting overnight. Carbon build up in the groove will cause the ring not to compress all the way.
The cylinder is not perfect, it will have areas the rings compress in more and decompress out as the piston moves up and down. When the engine is hot and has been run some the cylinder has oil on it's surface and so is easier to turn over. But sitting overnight the oil will drain away and leave the cylinder dryer. Usually the engine will stop at about the same location but the tightness of the rings because of carbon build up will cause more friction and stop the piston at it's tightest point.
To clean the ring groves without a ring grove tool I us an old ring. I break off a peice and use it like a scraper to scrape out all the carbon build up in the grove. This way I was taught by my father which was a master mechanic.
The cylinder is not perfect, it will have areas the rings compress in more and decompress out as the piston moves up and down. When the engine is hot and has been run some the cylinder has oil on it's surface and so is easier to turn over. But sitting overnight the oil will drain away and leave the cylinder dryer. Usually the engine will stop at about the same location but the tightness of the rings because of carbon build up will cause more friction and stop the piston at it's tightest point.
To clean the ring groves without a ring grove tool I us an old ring. I break off a peice and use it like a scraper to scrape out all the carbon build up in the grove. This way I was taught by my father which was a master mechanic.
#62
K
kjonxx
K
kjonxx
Valves not set right
I have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#63
B
bodean
B
bodean
I had this happen on my older Vtwin B&S engine that had about 350 hours on it. It became worse over time until it finally got too aggravating to try and start it. I mentioned this to an old retired lawnmower mechanic. He told me this was common and that the valves we’re throwing the timing off and needed adjusting. After re-adjusting the valves a bit looser, everything was back to normal.
#65
G
Gord Baker
G
Gord Baker
What He said. Cylinder(s) may be full of gasoline. Stuck needle valve.Wouldn't it be flooded then? Starts right up after I spin it.
#66
P
perimeterlandscaping@comc
P
perimeterlandscaping@comc
as are the vagaries of lawncare business, my 21 mower was run without oil. somoene drained the oil out fo the machine on the trailer. I put new oil and now it starts hard just the way your talking about and then after it warms up it starts on the first pull. the engine sounds like it was run without oil, too low oil. the splash lubrication style crank has to coat itself in oil on a cold start before it can turn freely
#67
G
Gord Baker
Check crankcase for fuel contamination of the Oil
G
Gord Baker
0.004-6" per inch of bore for ring gap.Too tight of a ring gap
Check crankcase for fuel contamination of the Oil
#68
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
I'm the OP.
You really need to read the posts from the beginning. As I've state three times already the problem has been solved.
I replaced #1 connect rod and the engine is back in the mower and running.
Bob
You really need to read the posts from the beginning. As I've state three times already the problem has been solved.
I replaced #1 connect rod and the engine is back in the mower and running.
Bob
#69
T
The Specialist
T
The Specialist
There are a few concerns that I have. 1) did you fit an oversize ring? If you did, did you deglaze the cylinders with your ring gap being equal at the top, middle and bottom. 2) if you did number 1 correct, are the timing marks lined up correctly on the crankshaft and the camshaft? 3) if 1 and 2 are done correct, did you set the values just after the compression stroke (so at the beginning of the power stroke) on each cylinder? You might have one cylinder correct, but incorrect on the other cylinder. The fact that it runs, tells me that you did 1 and 2 correct, but your valves are not right
#70
1
1bbford
1
1bbford
Come on people if you're going to respond to someone's question, at least take the time to read everything, especially when it is numerous pages of posts. As stated by the OP several times this has been solved with the OP commenting on his progress since day one. And to top things off most of your suggestions and several others were already answered by the OP during the build or during troubleshooting.There are a few concerns that I have. 1) did you fit an oversize ring? If you did, did you deglaze the cylinders with your ring gap being equal at the top, middle and bottom. 2) if you did number 1 correct, are the timing marks lined up correctly on the crankshaft and the camshaft? 3) if 1 and 2 are done correct, did you set the values just after the compression stroke (so at the beginning of the power stroke) on each cylinder? You might have one cylinder correct, but incorrect on the other cylinder. The fact that it runs, tells me that you did 1 and 2 correct, but your valves are not right
#71
T
Tommy Mckeown
T
Tommy Mckeown
If the engine is not hard to turn with the plugs pulled out your problem has nothing to do with the bottom end or anything attached to the engine. It's a compression issue. Either an exhaust valve is not opening when it should or an intake valve is not opening when it should. (think compression release)
#72
T
TobyU
If the number one rod snapped which is all too common when these twins run down even a touch below the ad mark and sometimes even in the safe area then it would be easier to turn over or occasionally but turn over at all due to parts hitting inside.
But the statement that you tried a connecting rod and it's fine now is odd.
T
TobyU
Now this confuses things even more. Unless you had the number one connecting rod somehow installed incorrectly or had a two flipped over and placed in that spot or something weird like that there's no way changing a connecting rod would magically make an engine that's hard to turn over start turning over easily and running properly.I'm the OP.
You really need to read the posts from the beginning. As I've state three times already the problem has been solved.
I replaced #1 connect rod and the engine is back in the mower and running.
Bob
If the number one rod snapped which is all too common when these twins run down even a touch below the ad mark and sometimes even in the safe area then it would be easier to turn over or occasionally but turn over at all due to parts hitting inside.
But the statement that you tried a connecting rod and it's fine now is odd.
#73
T
Tom O'
T
Tom O'
Possibly try adjusting the carb idle speed and mixture adjustmentsI have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#74
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
#75
U
unioncreek
2) Timing marks were lined up, that's not hard to do.
Procedure for setting the valves were the same for both cylinders according to the B&S repair manual.
If people would read the entire thread they would see that the engine has been fixed and back in the mower and running like new.
U
unioncreek
1) No to oversize rings, cylinder measurements didn't warrant it. Cylinder was honed. Rings endgaps we're equal top to bottom.There are a few concerns that I have. 1) did you fit an oversize ring? If you did, did you deglaze the cylinders with your ring gap being equal at the top, middle and bottom. 2) if you did number 1 correct, are the timing marks lined up correctly on the crankshaft and the camshaft? 3) if 1 and 2 are done correct, did you set the values just after the compression stroke (so at the beginning of the power stroke) on each cylinder? You might have one cylinder correct, but incorrect on the other cylinder. The fact that it runs, tells me that you did 1 and 2 correct, but your valves are not right
2) Timing marks were lined up, that's not hard to do.
Procedure for setting the valves were the same for both cylinders according to the B&S repair manual.
If people would read the entire thread they would see that the engine has been fixed and back in the mower and running like new.
#76
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
And if the forum wasn't set up or displayed and or emailed notifications oddly on mobile device..... A we wouldn't have this issue.1) No to oversize rings, cylinder measurements didn't warrant it. Cylinder was honed. Rings endgaps we're equal top to bottom.
2) Timing marks were lined up, that's not hard to do.
Procedure for setting the valves were the same for both cylinders according to the B&S repair manual.
If people would read the entire thread they would see that the engine has been fixed and back in the mower and running like new.
#77
E
electech2
E
electech2
Not terribly familiar with this particular engine but, in the days gone by, Briggs Connecting rods could be installed upside down and would cause this problem. There was a small projection on the end that goes inside the piston that must face the bottom of the engine to prevent the rod from dropping at an angle to cause binding. Installed correctly, the projection would insure that the rod remained straight. I don't know if that is even possible with this engine.
#78
Minguen
Minguen
I had a similar problem with my 20 hp v twin when starting from rest. I thought it was the battery too, but I checked valve clearances and they were too tight. Adjusted to spec. and not had any issues since.
#79
U
unioncreek
All I know is I installed a new rod and the engine is running good started up the last 6 time I tried starting it over three days.
And yes the original rods were installed correctly.
Bob
U
unioncreek
there's no way changing a connecting rod would magically make an engine that's hard to turn over start turning over easily and running properly.
Read the entire post and you will see that the connecting rod was over torqued.
And yet that exactly the way it turned out. The old rod had a clearance of 0.0015 and when torqued the rod was would not move on the cranks. The new rod clearance was 0.002" and moved freely on the crank. I put Dykem on the rod and torqued it down to 50 in-lbs so I could move it a little. There was only shiny spot the size of a pin point that was shiny and it could have been a air bubble.there's no way changing a connecting rod would magically make an engine that's hard to turn over start turning over easily and running properly.
All I know is I installed a new rod and the engine is running good started up the last 6 time I tried starting it over three days.
And yes the original rods were installed correctly.
Bob
#80
T
TobyU
The only way this could be possibly possible is it it had been around the world and that rod was starting to weld itself to the crane but then you would have said and should take the metal off the crank with muriatic acid or whatever else and normally this wouldn't occur anyway as normally just to continue well the metal together and snap the rod.
I always said if you do this that long enough you will find something that's not possible that has occurred right in front so never say things can't be certain ways but this certainly doesn't make sense.
And frankly all this is way too Overkill and in debt and sounds like an engineer is doing it.. lol.
Changing comes my way, I simply see if it's mechanically sound with an external fuel source and if it runs or if it has been then I don't worry about that. I'm never going to turn it to the internals of it unless it snapped a rod or something like that and even then it's not worth it because I can just swap something else more quickly and cheaper.
I'm never going to bother to use plastic edge or two micrometer a rod on a mower.
Torque wrench is fine but anything past that is overkill.
T
TobyU
Do you have a history with this engine? You simply can't have an engine that's running fine for 3 years let's say and then it gets hard to crank over and then you find the rod clearance tight and then change the rod and it's okay.And yet that exactly the way it turned out. The old rod had a clearance of 0.0015 and when torqued the rod was would not move on the cranks. The new rod clearance was 0.002" and moved freely on the crank. I put Dykem on the rod and torqued it down to 50 in-lbs so I could move it a little. There was only shiny spot the size of a pin point that was shiny and it could have been a air bubble.
All I know is I installed a new rod and the engine is running good started up the last 6 time I tried starting it over three days.
And yes the original rods were installed correctly.
Bob
The only way this could be possibly possible is it it had been around the world and that rod was starting to weld itself to the crane but then you would have said and should take the metal off the crank with muriatic acid or whatever else and normally this wouldn't occur anyway as normally just to continue well the metal together and snap the rod.
I always said if you do this that long enough you will find something that's not possible that has occurred right in front so never say things can't be certain ways but this certainly doesn't make sense.
And frankly all this is way too Overkill and in debt and sounds like an engineer is doing it.. lol.
Changing comes my way, I simply see if it's mechanically sound with an external fuel source and if it runs or if it has been then I don't worry about that. I'm never going to turn it to the internals of it unless it snapped a rod or something like that and even then it's not worth it because I can just swap something else more quickly and cheaper.
I'm never going to bother to use plastic edge or two micrometer a rod on a mower.
Torque wrench is fine but anything past that is overkill.
#81
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
He said in his very first sentence of his first post, he just overhauled the engine and the issue started occuring,.Do you have a history with this engine? You simply can't have an engine that's running fine for 3 years let's say and then it gets hard to crank over and then you find the rod clearance tight and then change the rod and it's okay.
The only way this could be possibly possible is it it had been around the world and that rod was starting to weld itself to the crane but then you would have said and should take the metal off the crank with muriatic acid or whatever else and normally this wouldn't occur anyway as normally just to continue well the metal together and snap the rod.
I always said if you do this that long enough you will find something that's not possible that has occurred right in front so never say things can't be certain ways but this certainly doesn't make sense.
And frankly all this is way too Overkill and in debt and sounds like an engineer is doing it.. lol.
Changing comes my way, I simply see if it's mechanically sound with an external fuel source and if it runs or if it has been then I don't worry about that. I'm never going to turn it to the internals of it unless it snapped a rod or something like that and even then it's not worth it because I can just swap something else more quickly and cheaper.
I'm never going to bother to use plastic edge or two micrometer a rod on a mower.
Torque wrench is fine but anything past that is overkill.
#82
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
The whole story about why I over hauled the engine is in the thread. You'll have to read it all.Do you have a history with this engine? You simply can't have an engine that's running fine for 3 years let's say and then it gets hard to crank over and then you find the rod clearance tight and then change the rod and it's okay.
The only way this could be possibly possible is it it had been around the world and that rod was starting to weld itself to the crane but then you would have said and should take the metal off the crank with muriatic acid or whatever else and normally this wouldn't occur anyway as normally just to continue well the metal together and snap the rod.
I always said if you do this that long enough you will find something that's not possible that has occurred right in front so never say things can't be certain ways but this certainly doesn't make sense.
And frankly all this is way too Overkill and in debt and sounds like an engineer is doing it.. lol.
Changing comes my way, I simply see if it's mechanically sound with an external fuel source and if it runs or if it has been then I don't worry about that. I'm never going to turn it to the internals of it unless it snapped a rod or something like that and even then it's not worth it because I can just swap something else more quickly and cheaper.
I'm never going to bother to use plastic edge or two micrometer a rod on a mower.
Torque wrench is fine but anything past that is overkill.
#83
D
davis2
D
davis2
A pellet mill? Similar to a feed pellet mill? Interesting project, have you ever run a pellet mill?I started with a HF 8 x 14,. Did quite a bit with it, just wasn't long enough. Bought the 10" Atlas for $300, it has a 48" bed. Right now I'm building a wood pellet mill (we heat with wood pellets) I don't get much time to work on it with everything else going on. I retire from work 18 months ago, had to go back to work, due to the economy.. I work for a farmer April thru Nov.
Bob
#84
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
Yes, operated quite a few of them making alfalfa pellets. This is just a project I'm playing with. Need projects during the winter.
#85
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
I just noticed that the title says rebuilt engine hard to turn over so obviously something wasn't done right and the rebuild or some parts got interchanged or had the wrong sizes to begin with.He said in his very first sentence of his first post, he just overhauled the engine and the issue started occuring,.
#86
T
TobyU
Sad, and maybe inefficient, but that is how it pans out.
I do remember now without going back and reading everything, the history on this. I was the one that kind of jumped your crap at the very beginning for rebuilding the engine in the first place and saying it was probably unnecessary.
Remember that big air filter discussion I said is the only way these things ever get worn out and dirt going in the intake etc?? Then, you assured me it wasn't head gaskets but rings and talked about how thin they were and how much excessive 3 to 4 times the limit of ring Gap when you took it apart..
I've never seen this and also find it hard to believe, I still think it was due to dirt being ingested past the air filter or bypassing it.
That's irrelevant at this point though.
So as I just told the other poster that since this was a freshly put together engine, if it was tight, then something was either installed incorrectly the first time, the wrong part, or some other way out of spec.
Now combining the information you gave me in a previous post which I believe was earlier today that when you change the connecting rod everything has been fine since, my theory is that connecting rod was the wrong one.
Did you take that same rod out of that same engine from the same position and put it back in to the same position??
If you didn't change any of the parts in the engine from when you took it apart to when you put it back together and you didn't change the positions of them like accidentally flipping something over or putting it in the wrong position, then there's no way a clearance can change.
But as I said earlier, sometimes things that just can't happen do.
I've stated before that I'm not big on people taking these engines apart because it's almost always a waste of time and money because there are cheaper alternatives but along this path of things that aren't supposed to happen that do..
Just in the past 18 months I had one of these same engines that ran fine but had a terrible knocking noise in it.
I became so intrigued as to what it could be that I decided to spend the hour or so to take it apart and look around.
I thought for sure I would find something obvious.
I had to complete block disassembled with the crank out both Pistons rods camshaft and everything.
Everything looked absolutely perfect.
Nothing was loose on disassembly and the rods weren't loose or floppy and had no signs of wear or damage.
Now, I don't claim to be an expert on these because I don't mess with them because I think it's a waste of time but I do have some pictures of a couple of little scratches on the Piston skirts but nothing from all my years of engine building autos and everything else let me to believe there would be a problem. Wrist pin had a little play in it but again nothing that should make a noise like I was hearing which was kind of a mid-range knock definitely not top in but not bottom in big end of rod sound.
So now the kicker.
I put it back together and fire it up and it sounds exactly like it did before.
That's not unexpected because I didn't do anything and didn't change anything and didn't find anything.
So I run it for maybe a minute or two.
Then I started once or twice again over the next two or three days but never run it for over another minute or so.
Then, I started up and drive it about 100 ft to load it on a trailer and it's still making the same sound.
I shut it off to get the trailer ready for about 45 seconds.
I started back up and as I go to load it on the trailer after 12 seconds run time the noise goes away!
I rev It up I'll let down I stop and start it several times. The noise did not come back!
I loaded on the trailer and haven't seen or heard from it since so I don't know what happened but it was so quiet when it left that if you had not known there was a problem you would never suspect anything.
Weird.
T
TobyU
Oh, I have certainly read it all! The problem is that was weeks ago. As We know This thread keeps getting revived because of all the notifications to people like myself that pop up in our email and then the link takes a straight to the last post and that is on a separate page which is unscrollable to get back to the very beginning and which would be very cumbersome and time consuming so we just start conversing at that point for getting a lot of what has transpired previously.The whole story about why I over hauled the engine is in the thread. You'll have to read it all.
Sad, and maybe inefficient, but that is how it pans out.
I do remember now without going back and reading everything, the history on this. I was the one that kind of jumped your crap at the very beginning for rebuilding the engine in the first place and saying it was probably unnecessary.
Remember that big air filter discussion I said is the only way these things ever get worn out and dirt going in the intake etc?? Then, you assured me it wasn't head gaskets but rings and talked about how thin they were and how much excessive 3 to 4 times the limit of ring Gap when you took it apart..
I've never seen this and also find it hard to believe, I still think it was due to dirt being ingested past the air filter or bypassing it.
That's irrelevant at this point though.
So as I just told the other poster that since this was a freshly put together engine, if it was tight, then something was either installed incorrectly the first time, the wrong part, or some other way out of spec.
Now combining the information you gave me in a previous post which I believe was earlier today that when you change the connecting rod everything has been fine since, my theory is that connecting rod was the wrong one.
Did you take that same rod out of that same engine from the same position and put it back in to the same position??
If you didn't change any of the parts in the engine from when you took it apart to when you put it back together and you didn't change the positions of them like accidentally flipping something over or putting it in the wrong position, then there's no way a clearance can change.
But as I said earlier, sometimes things that just can't happen do.
I've stated before that I'm not big on people taking these engines apart because it's almost always a waste of time and money because there are cheaper alternatives but along this path of things that aren't supposed to happen that do..
Just in the past 18 months I had one of these same engines that ran fine but had a terrible knocking noise in it.
I became so intrigued as to what it could be that I decided to spend the hour or so to take it apart and look around.
I thought for sure I would find something obvious.
I had to complete block disassembled with the crank out both Pistons rods camshaft and everything.
Everything looked absolutely perfect.
Nothing was loose on disassembly and the rods weren't loose or floppy and had no signs of wear or damage.
Now, I don't claim to be an expert on these because I don't mess with them because I think it's a waste of time but I do have some pictures of a couple of little scratches on the Piston skirts but nothing from all my years of engine building autos and everything else let me to believe there would be a problem. Wrist pin had a little play in it but again nothing that should make a noise like I was hearing which was kind of a mid-range knock definitely not top in but not bottom in big end of rod sound.
So now the kicker.
I put it back together and fire it up and it sounds exactly like it did before.
That's not unexpected because I didn't do anything and didn't change anything and didn't find anything.
So I run it for maybe a minute or two.
Then I started once or twice again over the next two or three days but never run it for over another minute or so.
Then, I started up and drive it about 100 ft to load it on a trailer and it's still making the same sound.
I shut it off to get the trailer ready for about 45 seconds.
I started back up and as I go to load it on the trailer after 12 seconds run time the noise goes away!
I rev It up I'll let down I stop and start it several times. The noise did not come back!
I loaded on the trailer and haven't seen or heard from it since so I don't know what happened but it was so quiet when it left that if you had not known there was a problem you would never suspect anything.
Weird.
#87
R
ragain's repair service
R
ragain's repair service
adjust valve clearance intake 5-7 exhaust 7-9 sometimes the camshaft needs replaced because of decompresion portion is not workingI have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
#89
T
TobyU
The singles are .003-.005 intake and .005-.007 exhaust. Both adjusted at 1/4inch past TDC of compression stroke for each cylinder.
T
TobyU
That's .004-.006 on both valves on the Briggs OHV twins...per Briggs and Stratton.adjust valve clearance intake 5-7 exhaust 7-9 sometimes the camshaft needs replaced because of decompresion portion is not working
The singles are .003-.005 intake and .005-.007 exhaust. Both adjusted at 1/4inch past TDC of compression stroke for each cylinder.
#90
M
mtd46
B&S i think also makes motors for the John Deere mowers sold at lowes i have one with only 300 hrs and it started smoking and using oil
How many hours was on your before you overhauled it
One Guy said he had one that was smoking and using oil and he put T4 rotella 15 w 40 made by shell have you heard of this or tried it?
I know thats not the problem you have but thought you might help solve my problem.
It seems the B&S motors are sorry engines
I cn,t even find anyone to overhaul mine they claim they don,t have the equipment to bore the block but i wouldn,t think wirth only 300 hours it would need boring what do you think?
M
mtd46
BobI have a JD D140 lawn tractor with a B&S 22 hp V Twin engine. I just over hauled then engine and replace the rings because of oil loss. I reinstalled the engine and cranked it over a number of time trying to start it. Wouldn't start got that figured out and started it and ran for a while at varying speeds to break it in. I tried to start it yesterday and it wouldn't turn over. Thought the battery was low on charge. Put a booster battery on and it would crank over. To the top off so I could get to the flywheel. I put a socket on it and it was hard to turn over for a couple of revolutions then got easy. Cranked it over and it started right up. Today it did the same thing. Runs good once I get it started. Any suggestions on what I should do? The first thing I thought was I got the wrong rings, but the end gap was within specs and it cranks over easy after a couple of revolutions. Is it just that tight and will loosen up over time?
Bob
B&S i think also makes motors for the John Deere mowers sold at lowes i have one with only 300 hrs and it started smoking and using oil
How many hours was on your before you overhauled it
One Guy said he had one that was smoking and using oil and he put T4 rotella 15 w 40 made by shell have you heard of this or tried it?
I know thats not the problem you have but thought you might help solve my problem.
It seems the B&S motors are sorry engines
I cn,t even find anyone to overhaul mine they claim they don,t have the equipment to bore the block but i wouldn,t think wirth only 300 hours it would need boring what do you think?
#91
U
unioncreek
I've overhauled the engine. The rings were shot. A leakdown test on cylinder #2 was 100 % and #1 was about 20%. A new connecting rod fixed the hard to turn over problem. I've ran it for over an hour since the rebuild starts right up and no smoke.
Bob
U
unioncreek
Mine had 140 hrs. I run Mobile Delvac 15/40 in my truck so I tried that still used almost as much. Even tried 50wt the last oil change that didn't work either.Bob
B&S i think also makes motors for the John Deere mowers sold at lowes i have one with only 300 hrs
One Guy said he had one that was smoking and using oil and he put T4 rotella 15 w 40 made by shell have you heard of this or tried it?
I've overhauled the engine. The rings were shot. A leakdown test on cylinder #2 was 100 % and #1 was about 20%. A new connecting rod fixed the hard to turn over problem. I've ran it for over an hour since the rebuild starts right up and no smoke.
Bob
#92
U
unioncreek
U
unioncreek
B&S repair manual states 0.005 on both intake and exhaust.That's .004-.006 on both valves on the Briggs OHV twins...per Briggs and Stratton.
The singles are .003-.005 intake and .005-.007 exhaust. Both adjusted at 1/4inch past TDC of compression stroke for each cylinder.
#93
T
TobyU
Kohler has a similar controversy but it's actually worse because the numbers don't fall exactly in the spec range like the brakes does. For their Kohler courage engines you can look at two different Kohler branded shop manuals and fine two different specs but in all reality either one will work because they are all close enough.
I've done a lot of these rigs overhead valve engines and what a lot of people don't realize is they are not like automobiles where the valve seat erodes and the valve goes further down into the margin and less the tip stick out further so they get tight. This is what used to burn valves on cars when they got out of adjustment because valves cool when they are closed so if they don't close all the way because they have not enough lash of clearance, they will burn.
These overhead valve Briggs engines always wear loose. I believe it's because they don't get nearly the hours of use on the actual valves themselves to wear like a car would and they're also not used at extremely different temperatures but I think the biggest reason is the material on the rocker arms is just such a soft not hard metal that it wears away where it rubs onto the hardened button cap on top of the valve stem which does seem to be very hardened and long-lasting without anywhere and also wears where the push rods ride into the hole on The rocker arms.
It doesn't take much wear to give you a couple of extra thousandths.
So typically when you pull one of these engines apart that's 6 or 8 years old and has never been adjusted when it's supposed to be .004-.006 you will find it's far more often around .012.
That's three times and saying it this way sounds like a lot but it doesn't make much difference on the exhaust valve. When the intake gets loose enough you lose your ACR action which causes it to be hard to crank over and that happens sometime around the .010 mark.
T
TobyU
Their official chart states .004-.006 and.005 is right in the middle so that's all good too.B&S repair manual states 0.005 on both intake and exhaust.
Kohler has a similar controversy but it's actually worse because the numbers don't fall exactly in the spec range like the brakes does. For their Kohler courage engines you can look at two different Kohler branded shop manuals and fine two different specs but in all reality either one will work because they are all close enough.
I've done a lot of these rigs overhead valve engines and what a lot of people don't realize is they are not like automobiles where the valve seat erodes and the valve goes further down into the margin and less the tip stick out further so they get tight. This is what used to burn valves on cars when they got out of adjustment because valves cool when they are closed so if they don't close all the way because they have not enough lash of clearance, they will burn.
These overhead valve Briggs engines always wear loose. I believe it's because they don't get nearly the hours of use on the actual valves themselves to wear like a car would and they're also not used at extremely different temperatures but I think the biggest reason is the material on the rocker arms is just such a soft not hard metal that it wears away where it rubs onto the hardened button cap on top of the valve stem which does seem to be very hardened and long-lasting without anywhere and also wears where the push rods ride into the hole on The rocker arms.
It doesn't take much wear to give you a couple of extra thousandths.
So typically when you pull one of these engines apart that's 6 or 8 years old and has never been adjusted when it's supposed to be .004-.006 you will find it's far more often around .012.
That's three times and saying it this way sounds like a lot but it doesn't make much difference on the exhaust valve. When the intake gets loose enough you lose your ACR action which causes it to be hard to crank over and that happens sometime around the .010 mark.
#94
T
TobyU
See, most people in a large part of the country only put between 25 and 35 hours a year on a mower and some less than that so the mowers get pretty old pretty quickly with not many hours so people don't realize that the engine should still be like a baby at 4 to 5 years or even 10 years but that's kind of a different story and the reason I think they no longer put the hour meters on most of them like they were for a long time because those things became so cheap.
Regardless, the problem with these was all about air filtration or lack thereof.
There can be other reasons and things that are not quite the most typical but for the most part he will only find worn out rings and smoking and using old engines on the ones that have the oval D shaped hole with the flat rectangular air filter. You won't find these problems on most of the round air filters.
These early ones and some of the second gen ones too even though they thought they fixed it allow dirt to bypass the air filter and go straight down the plastic d-shaped hole of the intake. You can spot it pretty often bye simply looking down there even without a flashlight. Or use a your finger or a paper towel. You will get this dirt colored residue sometimes it's excessively thick like it's been spray painted.
This simply destroys the rings and probably not too good in the cylinder walls either.
The funny part is none of this ever happened with the singles!
Why aren't they just the same engine but half or whatever and I'm saying this because plenty of people had air filtration issues with the singles even if the filter wasn't bypassing. People run these things for years sometimes without any air filter and they still don't wipe out the rings!
This is what has surprised me. Even if a twin is sucking that much more air even double the air how does it magically suck more dirt in than one cylinder would sucking half as much air. Shouldn't the dirt per cylinder be the same? Shouldn't a single running without an air filter suck a lot more dirt in than a twin with just a leaky air filter?
I can't answer all these but the known problem is with the twins with air filter bypass problems. There's no known or acknowledged issue with any of the singles.
Oil will help some but it's no magic bullet cure. Most people don't start their riding lawn mower when it's under 60 degrees so you can go by a straight weight 40 or even straight weight 50 if you want. 20 w 50 does better than 15W40 and so does a straight 50 weight normally or even a 40 weight.
O'Reilly carries Valvoline VR1 racing oil in all of these weights except the 15W40 because that's a diesel formulation.
You can also do what I think is the best thing for them and get some of the restore engine treatment.
It's one of the few products on the Walmart chemical automotive shelf that has not gone up in price!
Experiments B12 has doubled in price, Marvel's Mystery Oil has gone crazy and stable is up 20 or 30% but the restore is still sitting there with the four six and eight cylinder treatments the exact same price they were 8 to 10 years ago.
Read the back because you don't want to put a whole can in but I believe it says you can go up to 20% of your oil capacity.
You can actually go more like 25 to 30 and not be concerned I've done it lots of times.
You have to remember that one of these engines only holds about 53 to 56 oz of oil. And that depends on whether they have a spin on filter or not which they've also started to delete because they're trying to save money and lawnmower engines never needed a spin on filter to start with because it's not going to increase engine life because none of the failures are lubrication problems other than people not checking the oil and they're not having enough oil in them.
The whole oil filter thing and fully pressurized lubrication system was all about marketing!
So basically I'm saying put 10 to 13 oz of this stuff in with your oil and keep running it and keep your oil topped off..
It'.
This stuff is the only additive snake oil if you will but I've ever seen actually work for all consumption and compression with exception of the really super thick honey oil thickeners which works because they're super thick but we all know that.
This stuff seems to work and it's only like a thinner oil maybe 20 to 30 weight.
It certainly can't hurt one that's using oil so I recommend trying it on those and the most part check your air filter to see if dirt is going down the intake tube.
T
TobyU
Here's the deal.. Briggs had a number of their early first generation you could say in tech v twins that were wiping out the rings and under 100 hours. They replaced quite a few under warranty but you really had to keep after it and go through the proper channels but by quite a few I mean numbers and certainly not percentages.Bob
B&S i think also makes motors for the John Deere mowers sold at lowes i have one with only 300 hrs and it started smoking and using oil
How many hours was on your before you overhauled it
One Guy said he had one that was smoking and using oil and he put T4 rotella 15 w 40 made by shell have you heard of this or tried it?
I know thats not the problem you have but thought you might help solve my problem.
It seems the B&S motors are sorry engines
I cn,t even find anyone to overhaul mine they claim they don,t have the equipment to bore the block but i wouldn,t think wirth only 300 hours it would need boring what do you think?
See, most people in a large part of the country only put between 25 and 35 hours a year on a mower and some less than that so the mowers get pretty old pretty quickly with not many hours so people don't realize that the engine should still be like a baby at 4 to 5 years or even 10 years but that's kind of a different story and the reason I think they no longer put the hour meters on most of them like they were for a long time because those things became so cheap.
Regardless, the problem with these was all about air filtration or lack thereof.
There can be other reasons and things that are not quite the most typical but for the most part he will only find worn out rings and smoking and using old engines on the ones that have the oval D shaped hole with the flat rectangular air filter. You won't find these problems on most of the round air filters.
These early ones and some of the second gen ones too even though they thought they fixed it allow dirt to bypass the air filter and go straight down the plastic d-shaped hole of the intake. You can spot it pretty often bye simply looking down there even without a flashlight. Or use a your finger or a paper towel. You will get this dirt colored residue sometimes it's excessively thick like it's been spray painted.
This simply destroys the rings and probably not too good in the cylinder walls either.
The funny part is none of this ever happened with the singles!
Why aren't they just the same engine but half or whatever and I'm saying this because plenty of people had air filtration issues with the singles even if the filter wasn't bypassing. People run these things for years sometimes without any air filter and they still don't wipe out the rings!
This is what has surprised me. Even if a twin is sucking that much more air even double the air how does it magically suck more dirt in than one cylinder would sucking half as much air. Shouldn't the dirt per cylinder be the same? Shouldn't a single running without an air filter suck a lot more dirt in than a twin with just a leaky air filter?
I can't answer all these but the known problem is with the twins with air filter bypass problems. There's no known or acknowledged issue with any of the singles.
Oil will help some but it's no magic bullet cure. Most people don't start their riding lawn mower when it's under 60 degrees so you can go by a straight weight 40 or even straight weight 50 if you want. 20 w 50 does better than 15W40 and so does a straight 50 weight normally or even a 40 weight.
O'Reilly carries Valvoline VR1 racing oil in all of these weights except the 15W40 because that's a diesel formulation.
You can also do what I think is the best thing for them and get some of the restore engine treatment.
It's one of the few products on the Walmart chemical automotive shelf that has not gone up in price!
Experiments B12 has doubled in price, Marvel's Mystery Oil has gone crazy and stable is up 20 or 30% but the restore is still sitting there with the four six and eight cylinder treatments the exact same price they were 8 to 10 years ago.
Read the back because you don't want to put a whole can in but I believe it says you can go up to 20% of your oil capacity.
You can actually go more like 25 to 30 and not be concerned I've done it lots of times.
You have to remember that one of these engines only holds about 53 to 56 oz of oil. And that depends on whether they have a spin on filter or not which they've also started to delete because they're trying to save money and lawnmower engines never needed a spin on filter to start with because it's not going to increase engine life because none of the failures are lubrication problems other than people not checking the oil and they're not having enough oil in them.
The whole oil filter thing and fully pressurized lubrication system was all about marketing!
So basically I'm saying put 10 to 13 oz of this stuff in with your oil and keep running it and keep your oil topped off..
It'.
This stuff is the only additive snake oil if you will but I've ever seen actually work for all consumption and compression with exception of the really super thick honey oil thickeners which works because they're super thick but we all know that.
This stuff seems to work and it's only like a thinner oil maybe 20 to 30 weight.
It certainly can't hurt one that's using oil so I recommend trying it on those and the most part check your air filter to see if dirt is going down the intake tube.
#95
G
gtman
G
gtman
I didn't read the whole thread bit it sounds like your classic failed decompression feature when starting , hard to start when the engine is on the compression stroke
#96
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
True, and it's been a while for this thread but I believe it was a twin he was working on and those don't have the compressor release spring and finger and weight built into the camshaft like the single cylinders do.I didn't read the whole thread bit it sounds like your classic failed decompression feature when starting , hard to start when the engine is on the compression stroke
#97
G
gtman
G
gtman
wow, I just noticed how old this thread is. lolTrue, and it's been a while for this thread but I believe it was a twin he was working on and those don't have the compressor release spring and finger and weight built into the camshaft like the single cylinders do.
#98
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
Heck, this was nothing. Some of the threads get revived years later but that's okay because it keeps people finding them when they search on things especially on the forums that have been around a long long time and that way people learn things.wow, I just noticed how old this thread is. lol