You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Export thread
Oil Filter; Is Bigger Necessarily Better?
#1
C
cruzenmike
C
cruzenmike
I just thought I would ask the question from the pros on here. I have a Vanguard V-twin 356777-0115-E1 that I am getting ready to tune up. When I got the mower two years ago from my Stepdad it had a short oil filter on it which I tried to replace with another similar filter but the store I went to did not have the same one. Somehow I ended up with a full size filter that screwed on and worked. Then last year when I went to the local dealer they tried selling me another short filter but this one would not screw onto the oil filter adapter. So I went ahead and put on another full sized filter and went about my business. I am quite particular about using only "genuine" parts and following exactly as the manufacturer recommends so this year I went to Partstree and ordered the "correct" filter, part number 842921 which is a short filter.
This got me to thinking, so long as I have enough space should I just stick with the full sized filter? The filter media in the larger filter will have a greater surface area which should help to remove additional particulates or at the very least take longer to become saturated. The real question is, are there any drawbacks to using a filter that is bigger than what you really need or than what is recommended?
Thanks in advance.
Mike
This got me to thinking, so long as I have enough space should I just stick with the full sized filter? The filter media in the larger filter will have a greater surface area which should help to remove additional particulates or at the very least take longer to become saturated. The real question is, are there any drawbacks to using a filter that is bigger than what you really need or than what is recommended?
Thanks in advance.
Mike
#2
M
mechanic mark
M
mechanic mark
use OEM B&S filter on your Vanguard engine
https://www.google.com/search?q=b&s...j69i57j0l4.16221j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
https://www.google.com/search?q=b&s...j69i57j0l4.16221j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
#3
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
In my opinion if you are changing your oil regularly there is no reason to use a larger filter.
#4
cpurvis
cpurvis
Without knowing the specs of both filters, no comparison can be made, except this: With all things being equal, a filter with more media will take longer to clog. A larger filter will also add to the oil capacity of the engine.
#5
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
When I kicked off oil filters worried the life out of me.
Then I checked the specs to find out they were all as close to being the same as it was possible to be.
So from my point of view, if a Briggs long will fit then a Briggs long gets fitted for no other reason than it holds 4oz more oil.
The deciding factor is generally what will actually fit in the space.
Thus while there are 18 different filters basically I have a small & large NPT for Briggs, Kohler & Tecumseh and a small & large metric for Kawasaki, Honda & Honda clones.
The customers like to see big filters but much like Rivets , changing the oil is far more important than changing the filter
Then I checked the specs to find out they were all as close to being the same as it was possible to be.
So from my point of view, if a Briggs long will fit then a Briggs long gets fitted for no other reason than it holds 4oz more oil.
The deciding factor is generally what will actually fit in the space.
Thus while there are 18 different filters basically I have a small & large NPT for Briggs, Kohler & Tecumseh and a small & large metric for Kawasaki, Honda & Honda clones.
The customers like to see big filters but much like Rivets , changing the oil is far more important than changing the filter
#6
C
cruzenmike
C
cruzenmike
With only owning this mower for two season and only putting 25 hours on the first and 50 or so the second, I am not sure if the filter has made a difference in the life of the oil or not. I am quite sure that after an entire summer of mowing last year, the oil in the engine was still looking clean. At the start of each season I typically start it up and let it run for about 10 minutes and then drain. I then fill it up with oil and let it run for another ten minutes and drain. Then after that I change out the filter and fill it a last time. This has worked well for me over the years.
On all of my other non-filtered small engines I do the same thing just without the filter change. So far, the Honda engines have always come out clean each spring, but the 159cc on the Cub Cadet ST100 and the 254cc on the Ariens Deluxe 28 both come out dirty each tune up.
Also, this brings to mind what my Grandfather would always do. He used to buy only Kohler powered Cub Cadet Garden Tractors. I believe that these older ones all had Kohler Command Horizontal Shaft V-Twins. Anyway, we would always flush the engine using Kerosene. He would probably run, drain, fill with kerosene, crank over and run for about 3 seconds, repeat two or three more times and once completely drained fill back up with oil and go. To my knowledge his mowers never had any engine failures. It was always the hydrostatics that would fail from mowing some insane hills on their 10 acre property.
Either way, I think that this year I am just going to try out the regular "short" filter and see how things go. If for some reason I start to see the oil get dirty before the end of the season, I can always switch over to the larger filter.
Thanks all!
On all of my other non-filtered small engines I do the same thing just without the filter change. So far, the Honda engines have always come out clean each spring, but the 159cc on the Cub Cadet ST100 and the 254cc on the Ariens Deluxe 28 both come out dirty each tune up.
Also, this brings to mind what my Grandfather would always do. He used to buy only Kohler powered Cub Cadet Garden Tractors. I believe that these older ones all had Kohler Command Horizontal Shaft V-Twins. Anyway, we would always flush the engine using Kerosene. He would probably run, drain, fill with kerosene, crank over and run for about 3 seconds, repeat two or three more times and once completely drained fill back up with oil and go. To my knowledge his mowers never had any engine failures. It was always the hydrostatics that would fail from mowing some insane hills on their 10 acre property.
Either way, I think that this year I am just going to try out the regular "short" filter and see how things go. If for some reason I start to see the oil get dirty before the end of the season, I can always switch over to the larger filter.
Thanks all!
#7
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Kerro was fine for flushing out engines back in the 50's when they were built to last and were full of roller & ball bearings.
Modern engines are built to be cheap, not to last a long time so have no proper bearings .
Thus flushing with kerro is not desirable and quite capable of doing major damage to the running surfaces.
Oil should always be changed at the end of the season so the engine sits over winter ( summer for snow blowers ) with fresh clean oil.
Chemical corrosion only happens when the engine is sitting so you want to get rid of all of the acid by-products of combustion before you put it into storage.
Also despite all of the detergents in modern oils , leaving dirty oil sitting still for a long time will allow the particulate contaminates to settle in the bottom of the engine forming sludge.
Sludge formation is desirable with remote oil tanks, not with wet sump engines.
Modern engines are built to be cheap, not to last a long time so have no proper bearings .
Thus flushing with kerro is not desirable and quite capable of doing major damage to the running surfaces.
Oil should always be changed at the end of the season so the engine sits over winter ( summer for snow blowers ) with fresh clean oil.
Chemical corrosion only happens when the engine is sitting so you want to get rid of all of the acid by-products of combustion before you put it into storage.
Also despite all of the detergents in modern oils , leaving dirty oil sitting still for a long time will allow the particulate contaminates to settle in the bottom of the engine forming sludge.
Sludge formation is desirable with remote oil tanks, not with wet sump engines.
#8
7394
:thumbsup: X 2 ! !
7394
Kerro was fine for flushing out engines back in the 50's when they were built to last and were full of roller & ball bearings.
Modern engines are built to be cheap, not to last a long time so have no proper bearings .
Thus flushing with kerro is not desirable and quite capable of doing major damage to the running surfaces.
Oil should always be changed at the end of the season so the engine sits over winter ( summer for snow blowers ) with fresh clean oil.
Chemical corrosion only happens when the engine is sitting so you want to get rid of all of the acid by-products of combustion before you put it into storage.
Also despite all of the detergents in modern oils , leaving dirty oil sitting still for a long time will allow the particulate contaminates to settle in the bottom of the engine forming sludge.
Sludge formation is desirable with remote oil tanks, not with wet sump engines.
:thumbsup: X 2 ! !
#9
C
cruzenmike
I never really thought about that. I guess I could just go to changing my oil in the fall before I store it and then doing a flush in the spring. I just don't like the idea of starting a mowing season and then running 50-70 hours on oil that is also sat over an entire winter regardless of if it was clean or not. Since I already do a flush every year this really wouldn't cause me to use any more oil.
C
cruzenmike
Oil should always be changed at the end of the season so the engine sits over winter ( summer for snow blowers ) with fresh clean oil.
Chemical corrosion only happens when the engine is sitting so you want to get rid of all of the acid by-products of combustion before you put it into storage.
Also despite all of the detergents in modern oils , leaving dirty oil sitting still for a long time will allow the particulate contaminates to settle in the bottom of the engine forming sludge.
Sludge formation is desirable with remote oil tanks, not with wet sump engines.
I never really thought about that. I guess I could just go to changing my oil in the fall before I store it and then doing a flush in the spring. I just don't like the idea of starting a mowing season and then running 50-70 hours on oil that is also sat over an entire winter regardless of if it was clean or not. Since I already do a flush every year this really wouldn't cause me to use any more oil.
#10
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
If you want to flush then put cheap Walmart oil at the end of the season then change that for good quality mower oil at the beginning of the season.
Leaving the mower sitting all winter with clean oil in there is not much different to mowers sitting in a mower shop unsold.
The only difference is the shop is heated during the day but I doubt the heating stays on all night.
Leaving the mower sitting all winter with clean oil in there is not much different to mowers sitting in a mower shop unsold.
The only difference is the shop is heated during the day but I doubt the heating stays on all night.
#11
C
cruzenmike
True. I guess I have been lucky too that I have not found any evidence of moisture getting into the oil either. I had a 24 hp Briggs ELS on a 2009 Cub Cadet Rider and the oil was always looking like it had creamy white stuff in it.
C
cruzenmike
If you want to flush then put cheap Walmart oil at the end of the season then change that for good quality mower oil at the beginning of the season.
Leaving the mower sitting all winter with clean oil in there is not much different to mowers sitting in a mower shop unsold.
The only difference is the shop is heated during the day but I doubt the heating stays on all night.
True. I guess I have been lucky too that I have not found any evidence of moisture getting into the oil either. I had a 24 hp Briggs ELS on a 2009 Cub Cadet Rider and the oil was always looking like it had creamy white stuff in it.
#12
cpurvis
cpurvis
I've always changed oil in the Spring. One of my engines is an Onan 14 hp that has blown crankcase gaskets, twice. The last time I had it apart was at the 600 hour mark. There are pictures of this engine in the Cub Cadet forum somewhere. You can see for yourself the effects of changing oil in the Spring. I use non-synthetic 15w-40 diesel oil in it.
The other engine I had apart was a 1965 B&S 3 hp vertical shaft on a roto tiller that needed valve guide bushings. It was clean and had no corrosion, either. I didn't take any pictures.
The other engine I had apart was a 1965 B&S 3 hp vertical shaft on a roto tiller that needed valve guide bushings. It was clean and had no corrosion, either. I didn't take any pictures.
#13
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Boudreaux In Eunice La.
Bert had put up on a thread last summer about changing the oil before the winter storage.... Something about the corrosives in the oil from combustion ETC ETC......
Which I think makes sense..........But down here where i'm at I change 2 times a year.... We don't winter our machines over.....
Which I think makes sense..........But down here where i'm at I change 2 times a year.... We don't winter our machines over.....
#14
C
cruzenmike
C
cruzenmike
I could be mistaken, but I am quite sure that most people do as I do and just change it in the spring. My Vanguard with over 500 hours, when taken apart looked fine inside from what I could tell. While I did not remove the heads, nothing looked out of sorts on the bottom end. In case you were wondering why it was apart, oil leak from a seal so I just replaced all rubber on the bottom end; a little PM.
I am quite sure that the oil type, grade and many other conditions will factor into how the oil breaks down and what damage it might do to an engine when sitting.
I am quite sure that the oil type, grade and many other conditions will factor into how the oil breaks down and what damage it might do to an engine when sitting.
#15
C
cruzenmike
so if I am reading this correctly what you are saying is that all other things considered equal had you simply changed your oil in the fall after the season was over instead of in the spring your engine would not have needed to be rebuilt twice? I am not familiar with this engine that you are referring to that had to be rebuilt twice but is it typical of that engine to get much longer life than what you saw before the rebuilds?
C
cruzenmike
I've always changed oil in the Spring. One of my engines is an Onan 14 hp that has blown crankcase gaskets, twice. The last time I had it apart was at the 600 hour mark. There are pictures of this engine in the Cub Cadet forum somewhere. You can see for yourself the effects of changing oil in the Spring. I use non-synthetic 15w-40 diesel oil in it.
The other engine I had apart was a 1965 B&S 3 hp vertical shaft on a roto tiller that needed valve guide bushings. It was clean and had no corrosion, either. I didn't take any pictures.
so if I am reading this correctly what you are saying is that all other things considered equal had you simply changed your oil in the fall after the season was over instead of in the spring your engine would not have needed to be rebuilt twice? I am not familiar with this engine that you are referring to that had to be rebuilt twice but is it typical of that engine to get much longer life than what you saw before the rebuilds?
#16
cpurvis
Rebuilt? I don't think I said my engine got rebuilt. I replaced the crankcase gasket because that engine has a propensity to suck in the crankcase gasket in but that's all I've done to it. It's happened twice; first time at about 375 hours, second time at 600 hours. It's now got almost 1100 hours on it, with no rebuild yet. When replacing that gasket, the lower end of the engine is exposed.
cpurvis
so if I am reading this correctly what you are saying is that all other things considered equal had you simply changed your oil in the fall after the season was over instead of in the spring your engine would not have needed to be rebuilt twice? I am not familiar with this engine that you are referring to that had to be rebuilt twice but is it typical of that engine to get much longer life than what you saw before the rebuilds?
Rebuilt? I don't think I said my engine got rebuilt. I replaced the crankcase gasket because that engine has a propensity to suck in the crankcase gasket in but that's all I've done to it. It's happened twice; first time at about 375 hours, second time at 600 hours. It's now got almost 1100 hours on it, with no rebuild yet. When replacing that gasket, the lower end of the engine is exposed.
#17
B
bertsmobile1
It is a lazyness thing.
Don't do anything till the last minute & you have to do it right now.
Like driving down the street, most people do not turn off till the last corner where they will cue up for 3 minutes when thy could have turned earlier and missed the que.
There is the best time to do change your oil, which is after the last mow
There is the least beneficial time which is before the first mow
Then there are the bone idle who just top up.
When I pull down an engine you can see the ones that change at the end of the season, their sumps are clean
The ones who change before the first (ish) mow of the season will have staining on the sump floor and sludge in a few places.
B
bertsmobile1
I could be mistaken, but I am quite sure that most people do as I do and just change it in the spring. My Vanguard with over 500 hours, when taken apart looked fine inside from what I could tell. While I did not remove the heads, nothing looked out of sorts on the bottom end. In case you were wondering why it was apart, oil leak from a seal so I just replaced all rubber on the bottom end; a little PM.
I am quite sure that the oil type, grade and many other conditions will factor into how the oil breaks down and what damage it might do to an engine when sitting.
It is a lazyness thing.
Don't do anything till the last minute & you have to do it right now.
Like driving down the street, most people do not turn off till the last corner where they will cue up for 3 minutes when thy could have turned earlier and missed the que.
There is the best time to do change your oil, which is after the last mow
There is the least beneficial time which is before the first mow
Then there are the bone idle who just top up.
When I pull down an engine you can see the ones that change at the end of the season, their sumps are clean
The ones who change before the first (ish) mow of the season will have staining on the sump floor and sludge in a few places.
#18
cpurvis
Baloney, Baloney, Baloney.
cpurvis
It is a lazyness thing.
There is the best time to do change your oil, which is after the last mow
When I pull down an engine you can see the ones that change at the end of the season, their sumps are clean
The ones who change before the first (ish) mow of the season will have staining on the sump floor and sludge in a few places.
Baloney, Baloney, Baloney.
#19
C
cruzenmike
Sorry, I misspoke. Did you start changing your oil in the fall after the 600 hour gasket failure? Did you make any other changes in replacing the gasket itself?
C
cruzenmike
Rebuilt? I don't think I said my engine got rebuilt. I replaced the crankcase gasket because that engine has a propensity to suck in the crankcase gasket in but that's all I've done to it. It's happened twice; first time at about 375 hours, second time at 600 hours. It's now got almost 1100 hours on it, with no rebuild yet. When replacing that gasket, the lower end of the engine is exposed.
Sorry, I misspoke. Did you start changing your oil in the fall after the 600 hour gasket failure? Did you make any other changes in replacing the gasket itself?
#20
cpurvis
No, I've never changed oil in the Fall and have no intention of starting now. The operational change I made was to religiously clean the air filter wrapper at 10 hour intervals as recommended by Cub Cadet, not the 50 hour interval recommended by Onan.
cpurvis
Sorry, I misspoke. Did you start changing your oil in the fall after the 600 hour gasket failure? Did you make any other changes in replacing the gasket itself?
No, I've never changed oil in the Fall and have no intention of starting now. The operational change I made was to religiously clean the air filter wrapper at 10 hour intervals as recommended by Cub Cadet, not the 50 hour interval recommended by Onan.
#21
7394
7394
I have been doing my oil changes in fall, after last mow. Then my mowers can sleep w/ a belly full of fresh oil.
I don't think I'll change that habit either. Everyone has their preferences.
I don't think I'll change that habit either. Everyone has their preferences.
#22
C
cruzenmike
I am confused here. In an earlier post you said "I've always changed oil in the Spring. One of my engines is an Onan 14 hp that has blown crankcase gaskets, twice. The last time I had it apart was at the 600 hour mark. There are pictures of this engine in the Cub Cadet forum somewhere. You can see for yourself the effects of changing oil in the Spring." This statement would lead me believe that a) changing oil in the spring had in some way been related to your gasket failures, b) that this practice of doing it in the spring for many years resulted in more than one gasket failure and c) that because of said failures, you changed your routine; this was deduced from "It's now got almost 1100 hours on it, with no rebuild yet." I assumed that in this last statement, you are saying that you have not had a complete engine failure nor had you needed to replace the gasket again. If all of your troubles went away by simply "cleaning" the air filter, than it is likely that the oil changes, and when they are done has little to do with your gasket issues.
Again, I am just trying to make sense of this. I do not use my mower in adverse conditions. I would think that my engine and the rest of the mower has an easy life. I replace my air cleaner and pre-filter each and every season even if they looked clean. I run only ethanol free gasoline and replace the fuel filter at the start of each season. I put Genuine Briggs SAE30 oil in, and flush the system before putting the engine under any load. I do not operate the engine when ambient air conditions are under 50 degrees F and I never cut off more than 1/3 of the clippings. I find that after approximately 50 hours of use each year, the oil in the engine stays golden yellow all summer long and the engine doesn't consume a drop.
I guess at the end of the day, whatever I am doing it is working. I simply wanted to know if the bigger filter was "better." I guess in my case it probably does't matter!
C
cruzenmike
No, I've never changed oil in the Fall and have no intention of starting now. The operational change I made was to religiously clean the air filter wrapper at 10 hour intervals as recommended by Cub Cadet, not the 50 hour interval recommended by Onan.
I am confused here. In an earlier post you said "I've always changed oil in the Spring. One of my engines is an Onan 14 hp that has blown crankcase gaskets, twice. The last time I had it apart was at the 600 hour mark. There are pictures of this engine in the Cub Cadet forum somewhere. You can see for yourself the effects of changing oil in the Spring." This statement would lead me believe that a) changing oil in the spring had in some way been related to your gasket failures, b) that this practice of doing it in the spring for many years resulted in more than one gasket failure and c) that because of said failures, you changed your routine; this was deduced from "It's now got almost 1100 hours on it, with no rebuild yet." I assumed that in this last statement, you are saying that you have not had a complete engine failure nor had you needed to replace the gasket again. If all of your troubles went away by simply "cleaning" the air filter, than it is likely that the oil changes, and when they are done has little to do with your gasket issues.
Again, I am just trying to make sense of this. I do not use my mower in adverse conditions. I would think that my engine and the rest of the mower has an easy life. I replace my air cleaner and pre-filter each and every season even if they looked clean. I run only ethanol free gasoline and replace the fuel filter at the start of each season. I put Genuine Briggs SAE30 oil in, and flush the system before putting the engine under any load. I do not operate the engine when ambient air conditions are under 50 degrees F and I never cut off more than 1/3 of the clippings. I find that after approximately 50 hours of use each year, the oil in the engine stays golden yellow all summer long and the engine doesn't consume a drop.
I guess at the end of the day, whatever I am doing it is working. I simply wanted to know if the bigger filter was "better." I guess in my case it probably does't matter!