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new steering gear getting chewed up
#1
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bigjake
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bigjake
I replaced the steering sector gear and steering pinion gear on my JD LA140 because the old gears were chewed up and the steering wasn't working properly. I used genuine JD parts. After only one cut the new gears are starting to get chewed up. I assume it is because the steering gear rocks up and down as the steering wheel is turned? I replaced parts 20, 21, 23, 24, 25 in the attached diagrams. I tried to insert a video but got an error that it was too big so inserted screenshots showing the gear rocks up and down. Both bolts 23 and 25 are as tight as they will go but there is a fair amount of play. I assume there has to be play to allow the sector gear to rotate but it seems to allow the gear to rock up and down about a 1/2" too which I assume is causing the gears to get chewed up. What am I missing?
Attachments
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I’m will to bet your problem is a worn steering shaft bushing, part #14 on your diagram. Anytime I service a steering problem like yours that is one of the first parts I look at. A worn bushing will allow too much play between the sector gear and pinion gear.
#3
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bigjake
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bigjake
i didn't replace the bushing but there doesn't seem to be any play at all in the pinion gear. The problem seems to be excessive play in the sector gear. Where it connects to the linkage to the wheels, it moves up and down about 1/2" so the gears are meshing at an angle and getting chewed up. Should the sector gear rock up and down like that? should I shim it with a washer or something?I’m will to bet your problem is a worn steering shaft bushing, part #14 on your diagram. Anytime I service a steering problem like yours that is one of the first parts I look at. A worn bushing will allow too much play between the sector gear and pinion gear.
#7
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bigjake
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bigjake
got me wondering if bolt #22 didnt go thru cleanly and the gear is hung up on the shoulder of the bolt. I'll check that tomorrow.
#8
StarTech
StarTech
IF you didn't replaced #14 it is probably badly worn.
#9
B
bertsmobile1
After that there is the problem of the steering pins in the front cross member , have they been greased ?
And of course the bushes in the wheels themselves
Wear in any or all of them puts excessive load on the fan gear
Replacing the fan gear & bushes is one of those 5 hands jobs
Finally did you lubricate the fan gear & pinion ?
Mine always get a good shot of dry Lithium Chassis grease ( CRC Product )
What I see is paint transfer from the fan gear to the pinion
B
bertsmobile1
And from memory there are 2 of themIF you didn't replaced #14 it is probably badly worn.
After that there is the problem of the steering pins in the front cross member , have they been greased ?
And of course the bushes in the wheels themselves
Wear in any or all of them puts excessive load on the fan gear
Replacing the fan gear & bushes is one of those 5 hands jobs
Finally did you lubricate the fan gear & pinion ?
Mine always get a good shot of dry Lithium Chassis grease ( CRC Product )
What I see is paint transfer from the fan gear to the pinion
#10
B
Biggs
B
Biggs
I'm experiencing the exact thing on an LA145. I just bought a steering repair kit from my local dealer, though once I got home with it I noticed the label on the kit is Atlantic Quality Parts, not John Deere, so I'm a little aggravated about that (it was placed label-down on the counter, so I didn't notice or even consider the dealer would have been selling anything other than genuine parts). My sector gear rocks up and down as well (just at the sides) but I think it has to for the steering linkages to be able to move up and down with the way the front axles can tilt.
I just mowed for the second time since the repair, so the parts have about 1.5 hours on them, the steering is tighter and more difficult to deal with than the (assuming) original gears I just replaced with 210 hours on them.
My mom has the same mower with around 260 hours - I just mowed at her house today and her steering is significantly lighter than I recall mine being.
I just mowed for the second time since the repair, so the parts have about 1.5 hours on them, the steering is tighter and more difficult to deal with than the (assuming) original gears I just replaced with 210 hours on them.
My mom has the same mower with around 260 hours - I just mowed at her house today and her steering is significantly lighter than I recall mine being.
#12
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bigjake
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bigjake
That's what I wanted to clarify first, if it is normal for the sector gear to rock up and down at the sides. If yours is doing it too and not gouging the gears it may be normalI'm experiencing the exact thing on an LA145. I just bought a steering repair kit from my local dealer, though once I got home with it I noticed the label on the kit is Atlantic Quality Parts, not John Deere, so I'm a little aggravated about that (it was placed label-down on the counter, so I didn't notice or even consider the dealer would have been selling anything other than genuine parts). My sector gear rocks up and down as well (just at the sides) but I think it has to for the steering linkages to be able to move up and down with the way the front axles can tilt.
I just mowed for the second time since the repair, so the parts have about 1.5 hours on them, the steering is tighter and more difficult to deal with than the (assuming) original gears I just replaced with 210 hours on them.
My mom has the same mower with around 260 hours - I just mowed at her house today and her steering is significantly lighter than I recall mine being.
#13
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bigjake
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bigjake
That's what I wanted to clarify first, if it is normal for the sector gear to rock up and down at the sides. If yours is doing it too and not gouging the gears it may be normal. I read the reviews on the cheaper non John Deere parts and several reviews said they only lasted a few hours so I went with JD parts (but I think the package said made in CHina)
#14
B
bigjake
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bigjake
What am I looking for to determine if the shaft bushing is worn? The pinion gear is very tight on the shaftI’m will to bet your problem is a worn steering shaft bushing, part #14 on your diagram. Anytime I service a steering problem like yours that is one of the first parts I look at. A worn bushing will allow too much play between the sector gear and pinion gear.
#15
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bigjake
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bigjake
I believe you are correct, upon closer inspection, there is quite a bit of play between the steering shaft and both bushings. I assume they should be a pretty snug fit? I alos discovered that the reason that the sector gear rocks up and down is a built in depression in the frame above it (see attached pic), so apparently it is supposed to rock up and down. Headed to the local JD supplier to pick up two new bushings.I’m will to bet your problem is a worn steering shaft bushing, part #14 on your diagram. Anytime I service a steering problem like yours that is one of the first parts I look at. A worn bushing will allow too much play between the sector gear and pinion gear.
Attachments
#16
F
Forest#2
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Forest#2
AND sometimes I see the steering shaft itself worn where it goes through the bushings. The pinion seems snug and no excess gear mesh until the steering shaft moves up into a worn area which results in less gear mesh.
I've also seen them bushing have correct part number but actually the wrong size. Some of them bushings are metric and some are inches. (and one size does not fit all)
Your rig most likely has worn bushings.
I use a hoist and raise the front of the machine with the deck off and carefully with a good light watch the mesh of the pinion and sector gear and watch for any slack or the mesh of the gears changing. Just because it has new parts installed does not always cure the issue in this area.
Some of the Cub Cadets used about 3 or more different size and types of bushings (with same part number) above the pinion gear at the steering shaft area.
I've also seen them bushing have correct part number but actually the wrong size. Some of them bushings are metric and some are inches. (and one size does not fit all)
Your rig most likely has worn bushings.
I use a hoist and raise the front of the machine with the deck off and carefully with a good light watch the mesh of the pinion and sector gear and watch for any slack or the mesh of the gears changing. Just because it has new parts installed does not always cure the issue in this area.
Some of the Cub Cadets used about 3 or more different size and types of bushings (with same part number) above the pinion gear at the steering shaft area.
#17
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bigjake
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bigjake
This is with the new bushings installed. The new gears are definitely not meshing well?AND sometimes I see the steering shaft itself worn where it goes through the bushings. The pinion seems snug and no excess gear mesh until the steering shaft moves up into a worn area which results in less gear mesh.
I've also seen them bushing have correct part number but actually the wrong size. Some of them bushings are metric and some are inches. (and one size does not fit all)
Your rig most likely has worn bushings.
I use a hoist and raise the front of the machine with the deck off and carefully with a good light watch the mesh of the pinion and sector gear and watch for any slack or the mesh of the gears changing. Just because it has new parts installed does not always cure the issue in this area.
Some of the Cub Cadets used about 3 or more different size and types of bushings (with same part number) above the pinion gear at the steering shaft area.
Attachments
#18
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Forest#2
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Forest#2
No need in trying to operate that with the gear mesh that weak.
Ronnie Milsap can see that is no good.
You need to get the pinion/sector closer together somehow.
Check that the bushing are proper size OD and ID and the holes in the frame are not worn where the OD of the bushings fit.
Ronnie Milsap can see that is no good.
You need to get the pinion/sector closer together somehow.
Check that the bushing are proper size OD and ID and the holes in the frame are not worn where the OD of the bushings fit.
#19
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
I managed to get the pinion gears closer. I tried a few things but I think what might have made a difference was that the steering shaft was lightly worn where it fits through the bushings. Reluctant to throw any more money into a 16 year old tractor with 680 hours on it, I tried wrapping some metal duct tape around the shaft to give it a tighter fit in the bushing. Seems to have worked for now. no idea how long it will last. My bigger problem is that a couple months ago I replaced the transmission drive belt that was shredding. I used a genuine JD belt, confirmed the correct part number on the belt, confirmed the belt is routed properly, idler pulleys working correctly. But since changing the belt I'm having trouble climbing the steep hill in my back yard. One side is much steeper than the other. It used to be that if I couldnt make it up the steepest side then one of the rear tires would spin and I'd have to back down and go up the less steep side. Since changing the belt, when the tractor stops on the hill, the tires don't spin, it seems the belt is slipping on the pulleys as i can occasionally smell a burning rubber smell. Sometimes I wasn't sure if the transmission was just wearing out and nearing end of life, so i just started cutting up the less steep side and down the steeper side. That was working ok until yesterday. When I cut yesterday after fixing the pinion gear issue, I was having occasional problems getting up the less steep side too. I believe it's just the belt slipping but I can't bend down far enought to look under the tractor to confirm the transmission pulley is spinning and the belt is just slipping without taking too much weight off the seat and the dead man switch cutting out. I did get off the tractor and feel the drive belt and it was HOT, so it seems to just be the belt slipping. When I replaced the belt a couple months ago, I cut the old belt to take it off easier, but when the new belt was slipping right away, I assumed it was maybe longer that the original belt, so as best I could, I measured the old belt against the new belt while the new belt was still on the tractor and it seemed the old belt was actually slightly longer, which I guess would makes sense if it stretched with use. Any suggestions on getting the new belt to stop slipping on the hill? I bought the tractor from the neighbor 5 years ago after her husband died so I don't know the previous history, but I didn not have this problem until changing the belt. I've seen youtube videos of guys taking the transmission out and turning it upside down to drain and replace the fluid since they don't have drain plugs. I asked the guy at the tractor store about that when I bought the steering gears last week and he said the LA140 was built in 2007 and was an entry level tractor (probably sold at Lowes), he said they don't even sell those entry level models there. But he said the transmissions on those were not really designed for steep hills and don't last long (I have 680 hours). He said changing the fluid would probably not make a difference. He did say he had new transmissions in the back so i wasn't sure if he was just tryign to sell me a new transmission. I figure when this one actually dies I'll get a new tractor.No need in trying to operate that with the gear mesh that weak.
Ronnie Milsap can see that is no good.
You need to get the pinion/sector closer together somehow.
Check that the bushing are proper size OD and ID and the holes in the frame are not worn where the OD of the bushings fit.
#20
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Forest#2
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Forest#2
I figure when this one actually dies I'll get a new tractor.
Appears You answered your own question here.
14 year old machine, 3rd owner and duck tape around the steering shaft (redneck style) to help with steering sector gear mesh.
AND slipping new drive belt of correct size due to ????
probably inside groove on the 14 year old pulleys dished out and v belt not contacting properly plus other stuff. (that duck tape cannot be used to correct)
When I tell guys to go get a new mower that theirs is worn out mainly due to owner/operator neglect they usually call back in few days wanting to know if I know of any used GOOD mowers for sale, that the price of that new stuff seems high and not of good quality for the long haul.
Appears You answered your own question here.
14 year old machine, 3rd owner and duck tape around the steering shaft (redneck style) to help with steering sector gear mesh.
AND slipping new drive belt of correct size due to ????
probably inside groove on the 14 year old pulleys dished out and v belt not contacting properly plus other stuff. (that duck tape cannot be used to correct)
When I tell guys to go get a new mower that theirs is worn out mainly due to owner/operator neglect they usually call back in few days wanting to know if I know of any used GOOD mowers for sale, that the price of that new stuff seems high and not of good quality for the long haul.
#21
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
Yes, the duct tape"fix" is definitely pretty redneck but without knowing how much longer the tractor is going to make it up that hill, it just don't seem to make sense to spend money on a new steering shaft, especially since I don't know if that slight wear on it is the actual problem. I wondered if replacing the pulleys would solve the belt slipping problem because the engine still runs great and if that would get me a few more years it would be worth it. I just don't understand if the pulleys are worn then why did the old belt not slip which makes me hesitant to replace them
#22
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Forest#2
F
Forest#2
What you might consider doing to get by:
I heard you say you bought a correct part number OEM belt.
We do not know if it's the belt slipping or the transaxle yet. You say the drive belt was hot to the touch and you could smell rubber burning maybe.
You might take a piece of string or similar that does not stretch and measure the OD of the old belt you cut. Remove the new belt which is probably already stretched and worn some and compare their lengths. I do this BEFORE installing new belts. I use a upholstery cloth tape measure for such, dirt cheap from wal mart. If they are the same length and the old belt was not slipping as much the new belt may have slightly different v pattern.???
But when I've seen issues such as yours I look for a belt that is slightly shorter by 1/2 to 1 inch and I do not buy a high dollar premium priced belt. In some instance I've even went to same length belt but instead of a 1/2 inch wide use a 5/8 wide.
If that is a hydrostatic drive with the clutch/brake pedal it needs to be checked that it's moving freely underneath and the two zig zag idlers pulleys for the clutch section are in good shape and their bearings not seizing. I tried to look at a parts diagram on-line but seen lots of NLA info for a 2007 JD140. If you hear a hydraulic squeal or noise when it's slipping it's a hint it's the hydrostatic transaxle. No squeal or noise most likely just drive belt slipping.
I sometimes lightly spray belt dressing on a belt just to see if it helps. (I really do not like to use the sticky nasty stuff other than for just a quick test.
Also make sure the the brake pucks are not seizing and keeping the brake slightly applied especially right after the clutch/brake has been applied.
I heard you say you bought a correct part number OEM belt.
We do not know if it's the belt slipping or the transaxle yet. You say the drive belt was hot to the touch and you could smell rubber burning maybe.
You might take a piece of string or similar that does not stretch and measure the OD of the old belt you cut. Remove the new belt which is probably already stretched and worn some and compare their lengths. I do this BEFORE installing new belts. I use a upholstery cloth tape measure for such, dirt cheap from wal mart. If they are the same length and the old belt was not slipping as much the new belt may have slightly different v pattern.???
But when I've seen issues such as yours I look for a belt that is slightly shorter by 1/2 to 1 inch and I do not buy a high dollar premium priced belt. In some instance I've even went to same length belt but instead of a 1/2 inch wide use a 5/8 wide.
If that is a hydrostatic drive with the clutch/brake pedal it needs to be checked that it's moving freely underneath and the two zig zag idlers pulleys for the clutch section are in good shape and their bearings not seizing. I tried to look at a parts diagram on-line but seen lots of NLA info for a 2007 JD140. If you hear a hydraulic squeal or noise when it's slipping it's a hint it's the hydrostatic transaxle. No squeal or noise most likely just drive belt slipping.
I sometimes lightly spray belt dressing on a belt just to see if it helps. (I really do not like to use the sticky nasty stuff other than for just a quick test.
Also make sure the the brake pucks are not seizing and keeping the brake slightly applied especially right after the clutch/brake has been applied.
#23
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bigjake
B
bigjake
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, I no longer have the old belt to do the length comparison gain. I did do basically what you are suggesting when I first installed the belt a couple months ago and it was slipping. I measured the old belt with a piece of string. I didnt take the new belt off the tractor to measure, I used painters tape to tape the string to the new belt and rotated the belt around the pulleys by hand, taping the string on every 12" or so. Doing that the new belt acutally seemed slightly shorter. It had the same V shape as the old belt. Yes, it is a hydrostatic transmission. I'll have to confirm tomorrow, but I don't think there is any squeal at all. I previoulsy confirmed the tensioner is moving the full distance and all pulleys rotate freely but will do so again tomorrow. The belt number is GX2006. The part number is stamped right on the belt, so I know I received the correct belt. Onlines specs say it is 1/2" x 88.898". How would I go about finding a shorter/wider belt?What you might consider doing to get by:
I heard you say you bought a correct part number OEM belt.
We do not know if it's the belt slipping or the transaxle yet. You say the drive belt was hot to the touch and you could smell rubber burning maybe.
You might take a piece of string or similar that does not stretch and measure the OD of the old belt you cut. Remove the new belt which is probably already stretched and worn some and compare their lengths. I do this BEFORE installing new belts. I use a upholstery cloth tape measure for such, dirt cheap from wal mart. If they are the same length and the old belt was not slipping as much the new belt may have slightly different v pattern.???
But when I've seen issues such as yours I look for a belt that is slightly shorter by 1/2 to 1 inch and I do not buy a high dollar premium priced belt. In some instance I've even went to same length belt but instead of a 1/2 inch wide use a 5/8 wide.
If that is a hydrostatic drive with the clutch/brake pedal it needs to be checked that it's moving freely underneath and the two zig zag idlers pulleys for the clutch section are in good shape and their bearings not seizing. I tried to look at a parts diagram on-line but seen lots of NLA info for a 2007 JD140. If you hear a hydraulic squeal or noise when it's slipping it's a hint it's the hydrostatic transaxle. No squeal or noise most likely just drive belt slipping.
I sometimes lightly spray belt dressing on a belt just to see if it helps. (I really do not like to use the sticky nasty stuff other than for just a quick test.
Also make sure the the brake pucks are not seizing and keeping the brake slightly applied especially right after the clutch/brake has been applied.
#24
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
At those hours your transmission is probably on it's last legs
They start to fail at about 1000 hrs & it is rare to find one running well over 2000 hrs
For some reason known only to JD they get their drives full of 10w40 rather then the 20w50 that hydogear specifies for those units.
IF it is not howling when you engage the drive then you can get another 1 to 5 years out of it by draining the oil & replacing it
You might get even more use if you buy the hydrogear maintanance kit which has oil + filters
Not trying to be aggressive or nasty but if you have allowed the steering shaft to wear to the point that a single layer of duct tape around the shaft in a new bush can turn, the mower has been abused , both the bushes are supposed to be oiled and from memory JD even put the schedule on a sticker under the hood so all the clots who can not read a manual will see it every time they check the oil .
Now the cheap & nasty test for a hydro motor is to park the mower on a slope ,turn off the engine, release the brake and give it a gentle push.
A new hydro will resist moving and one wheel may even lock & slide
A slightly worn hydro will move with resistance then slow or stop when you stop pushing
A stuffed hydro will take off like Mulga Bills Bicycle the instant you get off even before you push it
The latter can be repaired with a new pump/motor unit which is about 1/4 the price of a new transmission .
The oil is supposed to be replaced but no one ever does it .
If the rest of you mower has been allowed to wear as bad as the steering then it is now most likely junk so for you the best bet is to by another mower .
There is a lot more to maintaining a mower than changing the engine oil & filters but that is about the limit of the "I do my own maintenance " crowd
There is a reason why it takes me 4 hours to do a full service & that is not because I move very slow .
They start to fail at about 1000 hrs & it is rare to find one running well over 2000 hrs
For some reason known only to JD they get their drives full of 10w40 rather then the 20w50 that hydogear specifies for those units.
IF it is not howling when you engage the drive then you can get another 1 to 5 years out of it by draining the oil & replacing it
You might get even more use if you buy the hydrogear maintanance kit which has oil + filters
Not trying to be aggressive or nasty but if you have allowed the steering shaft to wear to the point that a single layer of duct tape around the shaft in a new bush can turn, the mower has been abused , both the bushes are supposed to be oiled and from memory JD even put the schedule on a sticker under the hood so all the clots who can not read a manual will see it every time they check the oil .
Now the cheap & nasty test for a hydro motor is to park the mower on a slope ,turn off the engine, release the brake and give it a gentle push.
A new hydro will resist moving and one wheel may even lock & slide
A slightly worn hydro will move with resistance then slow or stop when you stop pushing
A stuffed hydro will take off like Mulga Bills Bicycle the instant you get off even before you push it
The latter can be repaired with a new pump/motor unit which is about 1/4 the price of a new transmission .
The oil is supposed to be replaced but no one ever does it .
If the rest of you mower has been allowed to wear as bad as the steering then it is now most likely junk so for you the best bet is to by another mower .
There is a lot more to maintaining a mower than changing the engine oil & filters but that is about the limit of the "I do my own maintenance " crowd
There is a reason why it takes me 4 hours to do a full service & that is not because I move very slow .
#25
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Your question:
. How would I go about finding a shorter/wider belt?
You do not need a part number
I try two things.
Go to fleece bay and type in the size belt you are considering. (for example 1/2 inch wide x 88 inches long0 search, then look at prices, then NEXT on the right side upper select on the drop down box instead of best match select, price + shipping lowest first.
The 1/2 inch wide x 88 long happens to also be a 4L880. At around $10.
You would do the same thing for a 5/8 wide belt but usually stay with the same length. (88.5-90 inch) because the 5/8 wide belt rides higher in the pulleys and will act like a shorter belt. You will have to be your own judge about if the 5/8 belt will stay in the existing v-groove DRIVE pulleys. Usually they will with good belt guides and if the existing 1/2 inch wide belt rides low in the v-grooves.
OR just type in the size you are considering into the browser search bar and select site choices.
You have to not expect a $10 V belt to last as long as a $40-60 OEM JD belt or a Kevlar belt, you are just testing to see if you can get by without spending big bucks replacing your pulleys that probably have worn out deep v-grooves and the OEM belt is no longer operating properly due to a worn out machine.. If the cheapo belt gives you better operation write down the size and length and when it starts wearing out go to a better made belt of that length. If the old worn out tractor is still going. Measure the new belts length when it arrives to make sure that it's size is as stated.
I have accumulated a big piles of v-belts over the years and have them labeled with width and length sizes, so when I'm testing by changing belts I do not often have to buy a new belt.
I've found that on some mowers that just a 1/2 inch difference in the length of a v-belt is all that is needed for a problem correction.
. How would I go about finding a shorter/wider belt?
You do not need a part number
I try two things.
Go to fleece bay and type in the size belt you are considering. (for example 1/2 inch wide x 88 inches long0 search, then look at prices, then NEXT on the right side upper select on the drop down box instead of best match select, price + shipping lowest first.
The 1/2 inch wide x 88 long happens to also be a 4L880. At around $10.
You would do the same thing for a 5/8 wide belt but usually stay with the same length. (88.5-90 inch) because the 5/8 wide belt rides higher in the pulleys and will act like a shorter belt. You will have to be your own judge about if the 5/8 belt will stay in the existing v-groove DRIVE pulleys. Usually they will with good belt guides and if the existing 1/2 inch wide belt rides low in the v-grooves.
OR just type in the size you are considering into the browser search bar and select site choices.
You have to not expect a $10 V belt to last as long as a $40-60 OEM JD belt or a Kevlar belt, you are just testing to see if you can get by without spending big bucks replacing your pulleys that probably have worn out deep v-grooves and the OEM belt is no longer operating properly due to a worn out machine.. If the cheapo belt gives you better operation write down the size and length and when it starts wearing out go to a better made belt of that length. If the old worn out tractor is still going. Measure the new belts length when it arrives to make sure that it's size is as stated.
I have accumulated a big piles of v-belts over the years and have them labeled with width and length sizes, so when I'm testing by changing belts I do not often have to buy a new belt.
I've found that on some mowers that just a 1/2 inch difference in the length of a v-belt is all that is needed for a problem correction.
#26
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bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Like Forest , I have a stock pile of around 300 OEM spec belts so for some sizes I can go in 1/4" increments .
A dealer has to use the correct parts so when a pulley is worn to the point it has a smaller effective diameter thay have to replace the pulley
I can just use a shorter belt
But a shorter belt will not overcome a worn out hydro pump or motor
A dealer has to use the correct parts so when a pulley is worn to the point it has a smaller effective diameter thay have to replace the pulley
I can just use a shorter belt
But a shorter belt will not overcome a worn out hydro pump or motor
#27
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
I'll do the hill test tomorrow and see where I standLike Forest , I have a stock pile of around 300 OEM spec belts so for some sizes I can go in 1/4" increments .
A dealer has to use the correct parts so when a pulley is worn to the point it has a smaller effective diameter thay have to replace the pulley
I can just use a shorter belt
But a shorter belt will not overcome a worn out hydro pump or motor
#28
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
OK, so this is what I found today. First I did the transmission hill test. I wasn't sure what level of slope you meant to use so I did a few different slopes. First I did it onthe back yard hill that is giving me problems trying to come up. First test was on the right side, where the tractor is sitting if you zoom in. I let off the brake and the tractor very slowly rolled all the way down the hill to the shed. I did not have to push it to get it started. But it was pretty slow, maybe 3 mph that I just slowly walked beside it. Next I did the left side of the hill next to the tree. It doesn't really show in the picture but that side is much steeper. I expected it would roll much faster, but it just rolled down at the same slow speed. Then I went to the side yard, a little less steep. This time I had to push it to get it moving. It went about 10 feet and stopped. Then I went to the driveway which has just a very slight slope (yes, I know the driveway needs powerwashed, it's on my list). I could not get it to move at all in the driveway. What does this tell you about the condition of the transmission?
Next I drove it up the steeper left side of the back hill to check for a squeal. I was able to drive up 3 times without any problems. It didn't slip at all. At this point I should mention that I always cut the back hill last. So I cut all the other grass then tried going up the back hill and now it got only half way up the left side. There was a squeal but I'm pretty sure it was the belt squealing. I tried looking underneath to see if the transmission pulley was turning when it squealed, but couldn't see. I did notice, looking through the slot for the gear shift that when it squealed, the fan on top of the transmission slowed down. The belt turns the fan right? so if the belt is slipping, the fan will be slower? So I deduced from that, that while I'm cutting the front yard, the belt is getting hot and it only slips when it gets hot (and expands?)
So next I pulled it in the garage to check underneath and I may have found the problem or at least part of the problem. First a question - The first thing I noticed is there appears to be virtually no clearance between the belt and the guide (circled in yellow). It looks like the belt is slightly rubbing the guide. Notice the slight fraying of the outer edge of the belt. Is that lack of clearance normal? How can I fix that? Next I removed the idler pulleys and discovered that the flat pulley spins (not quite as well as I would expect), but the V pulley turns freely but does not spin. I don't know how I missed this when I replaced the belt...I thought sure that I checked the pulleys then. So I'm going to order new pulleys. I checked the numbers on the pulleys to see if maybe they were the wrong pulleys which might explain the lack of clearance with the belt guide, but both pulleys have the same number GX20153? The numbers on the parts diagram are GX20287 and GX20286. Do you think the drag created by the pulleys going bad is enough to cause the belt slipping problem?
Also, there is an adjusting nut behind the spring on the transmission linkage circled in blue. How would I know if this nut might need adjusted one way ot the other? Could it have anything to do with my issue?
Next I drove it up the steeper left side of the back hill to check for a squeal. I was able to drive up 3 times without any problems. It didn't slip at all. At this point I should mention that I always cut the back hill last. So I cut all the other grass then tried going up the back hill and now it got only half way up the left side. There was a squeal but I'm pretty sure it was the belt squealing. I tried looking underneath to see if the transmission pulley was turning when it squealed, but couldn't see. I did notice, looking through the slot for the gear shift that when it squealed, the fan on top of the transmission slowed down. The belt turns the fan right? so if the belt is slipping, the fan will be slower? So I deduced from that, that while I'm cutting the front yard, the belt is getting hot and it only slips when it gets hot (and expands?)
So next I pulled it in the garage to check underneath and I may have found the problem or at least part of the problem. First a question - The first thing I noticed is there appears to be virtually no clearance between the belt and the guide (circled in yellow). It looks like the belt is slightly rubbing the guide. Notice the slight fraying of the outer edge of the belt. Is that lack of clearance normal? How can I fix that? Next I removed the idler pulleys and discovered that the flat pulley spins (not quite as well as I would expect), but the V pulley turns freely but does not spin. I don't know how I missed this when I replaced the belt...I thought sure that I checked the pulleys then. So I'm going to order new pulleys. I checked the numbers on the pulleys to see if maybe they were the wrong pulleys which might explain the lack of clearance with the belt guide, but both pulleys have the same number GX20153? The numbers on the parts diagram are GX20287 and GX20286. Do you think the drag created by the pulleys going bad is enough to cause the belt slipping problem?
Also, there is an adjusting nut behind the spring on the transmission linkage circled in blue. How would I know if this nut might need adjusted one way ot the other? Could it have anything to do with my issue?
Attachments
#29
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
What is this statement you wrote?????????
but the V pulley turns freely but does not spin.
but the V pulley turns freely but does not spin.
#30
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
I meant that I stuck my finger thru the bearing on the flat pulley and the pulley would actually spin freely. When I did that with the V pulley, it can manually be turned without really feeling like it's binding but it does not spin freely, so the bearing is bad.What is this statement you wrote?????????
but the V pulley turns freely but does not spin.
#31
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
So I meant, the belt was able to turn the pulley but the bad bearing is obviously creating drag. Just not sure if that is enough drag to cause the belt to slipI meant that I stuck my finger thru the bearing on the flat pulley and the pulley would actually spin freely. When I did that with the V pulley, it can manually be turned without really feeling like it's binding but it does not spin freely, so the bearing is bad.
#32
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
There is also the issue that I had no problem until I changed the belt, so after I put the new pulleys on (ordered from AMazon for delivery tomorrow), I may still have to try your suggestion of a wider/smaller belt
#33
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Thanks for doing as asked
So it will appear that your transmission is reasonable
FWIW I do this test on my tilting trailer while unloading the mower .
An old belt will have rubber that has extruded through the cover so will be a little sticky when hot
A new belt will not
And old belt will be uniform because it has been run & gotten hot
A new belt will have set bends where it has been folded for transport & storage and may take a coupe of hours use to get hot hot enough to stretch them out
The pulleys need to spin freely & quietly , if not they need replacing
A very small amount of wear in the pivot hole for the tension arm can make a bit difference to the amount of tension on the belt
So it will appear that your transmission is reasonable
FWIW I do this test on my tilting trailer while unloading the mower .
An old belt will have rubber that has extruded through the cover so will be a little sticky when hot
A new belt will not
And old belt will be uniform because it has been run & gotten hot
A new belt will have set bends where it has been folded for transport & storage and may take a coupe of hours use to get hot hot enough to stretch them out
The pulleys need to spin freely & quietly , if not they need replacing
A very small amount of wear in the pivot hole for the tension arm can make a bit difference to the amount of tension on the belt
#34
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
Thanks. That's good news on the transmission. Hmm, that would explain the mystery of why the problem started when the new belt was installed. If it may be a matter of the new belt just needing a "break in" period, if it's still slipping after installing the new pulleys, would you suggest the next step just be trying some belt dressing before going to a different size belt? Any thoughts on how close the belt is to the belt guide?Thanks for doing as asked
So it will appear that your transmission is reasonable
FWIW I do this test on my tilting trailer while unloading the mower .
An old belt will have rubber that has extruded through the cover so will be a little sticky when hot
A new belt will not
And old belt will be uniform because it has been run & gotten hot
A new belt will have set bends where it has been folded for transport & storage and may take a coupe of hours use to get hot hot enough to stretch them out
The pulleys need to spin freely & quietly , if not they need replacing
A very small amount of wear in the pivot hole for the tension arm can make a bit difference to the amount of tension on the belt
#35
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
No
Belt dressing is designed for use on plain belts
However when you change the belt check the mower & the transmission pulley carefully
If either of them are polished right down to the bottom of the V then they are worn past their useable limit
Belt dressing is designed for use on plain belts
However when you change the belt check the mower & the transmission pulley carefully
If either of them are polished right down to the bottom of the V then they are worn past their useable limit
#36
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
You need to do some closer inspecting while changing those two pulleys.
I try to replace that plastic V-groove pulley with a metal type if readily available at about same price.
You indicated previously that you seen the fan on the transmission pulley getting slower, which is a sign of belt slippage.
While you are replacing those two zig zag pulleys, I'm not sure on yours because I never could find a IPL, but if that is the type that pulleys swivel on a spring loaded plate that is spring loaded you need to make sure the plate that the pulleys are attached to swivels freely and that the spring is attached in the correct holes at each end. I've seen those springs get hooked in the wrong hole and the spring would not be holding the pulleys tight to the belt. (it's a strong spring is why is gets hooked in the wrong place)
A hint of the two (spring and not getting a full swivel is if that rig has a clutch brake pedal the brake pedal could be pulled back further with the heel of the foot as the mower is slowing down going up a hill and the mower then goes faster. (the more tension that those two pulley place on the belt as they swivel is what makes for more belt tension)
You cannot put a wider belt on that rig due to the spacing of the belt keeper being close to the existing belt.
Also as bert says, you need to inspect the engine and transaxle pulleys and if the grooves are worn (on the sides) to where the belt is touching/running in the very bottom of the very bottom of just one pulley the belt will slip.
The most likely suspect is the smaller front pulley up by the engine. The belt will have to be removed and the pulley pulled down on the shaft and a bright ring in the very bottom of the pulley and dished out side is a hint it's worn too bad. This will not be an easy task if the engine has a electric PTO clutch.
Also you mentioned the belt gets hot. that is a sign of a slipping belt.
I think your belt keeper you inquired about is ok. It only touches the belt when the clutch/brake is depressed giving the belt slack to slip so it's not rubbing hard when the belt is snug. (and the belt slippage even when pulling or the clutch/brake depressed will be at the smaller upper front engine pulley)
I try to replace that plastic V-groove pulley with a metal type if readily available at about same price.
You indicated previously that you seen the fan on the transmission pulley getting slower, which is a sign of belt slippage.
While you are replacing those two zig zag pulleys, I'm not sure on yours because I never could find a IPL, but if that is the type that pulleys swivel on a spring loaded plate that is spring loaded you need to make sure the plate that the pulleys are attached to swivels freely and that the spring is attached in the correct holes at each end. I've seen those springs get hooked in the wrong hole and the spring would not be holding the pulleys tight to the belt. (it's a strong spring is why is gets hooked in the wrong place)
A hint of the two (spring and not getting a full swivel is if that rig has a clutch brake pedal the brake pedal could be pulled back further with the heel of the foot as the mower is slowing down going up a hill and the mower then goes faster. (the more tension that those two pulley place on the belt as they swivel is what makes for more belt tension)
You cannot put a wider belt on that rig due to the spacing of the belt keeper being close to the existing belt.
Also as bert says, you need to inspect the engine and transaxle pulleys and if the grooves are worn (on the sides) to where the belt is touching/running in the very bottom of the very bottom of just one pulley the belt will slip.
The most likely suspect is the smaller front pulley up by the engine. The belt will have to be removed and the pulley pulled down on the shaft and a bright ring in the very bottom of the pulley and dished out side is a hint it's worn too bad. This will not be an easy task if the engine has a electric PTO clutch.
Also you mentioned the belt gets hot. that is a sign of a slipping belt.
I think your belt keeper you inquired about is ok. It only touches the belt when the clutch/brake is depressed giving the belt slack to slip so it's not rubbing hard when the belt is snug. (and the belt slippage even when pulling or the clutch/brake depressed will be at the smaller upper front engine pulley)
#37
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
Well the new pulleys just arrived. Am I wrong in thinking that I should be to put my finger through the bearing and give the pulley a spin and it should spin freely for several seconds? Like at the 1 minute mark in this youtube video
Neither of the new pulleys will spin at all. They turn freely if I manually turn them, but do not spin. Thats what the old V pulley did and I assumed it was bad, The old flat pulley spins but only for a second. I know you only get what you pay for but I went with a cheap set since I'm still trying to confirm I can get the tractor climbing hills again properly. I assumed the bearings in the cheap set woud be good but just might not last very long and I'd have to replace them again with better but these don't seem any better than the old ones and the diameter of the flat pulley where the belt rides, is almost 1/8" smaller than the old pulley so is not going to help my belt slippage problem. Am I wrong in thinking that these pulleys should spin like in the video?
Neither of the new pulleys will spin at all. They turn freely if I manually turn them, but do not spin. Thats what the old V pulley did and I assumed it was bad, The old flat pulley spins but only for a second. I know you only get what you pay for but I went with a cheap set since I'm still trying to confirm I can get the tractor climbing hills again properly. I assumed the bearings in the cheap set woud be good but just might not last very long and I'd have to replace them again with better but these don't seem any better than the old ones and the diameter of the flat pulley where the belt rides, is almost 1/8" smaller than the old pulley so is not going to help my belt slippage problem. Am I wrong in thinking that these pulleys should spin like in the video?
#38
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
They are most likely full of grease.(which is a good thing)
They will turn free after they have ran for awhile.
1/8 inch in the flat pulley will still be ok.
I quite often buy a bearing or bearing/pulley now days and it free wheel spins easy when new. That is a sign that China did not pack the bearing with grease.
I use a vaccinating needle on my grease gun and pack them kind if I cannot pop the seal out.
Install the pulleys and test.
They will turn free after they have ran for awhile.
1/8 inch in the flat pulley will still be ok.
I quite often buy a bearing or bearing/pulley now days and it free wheel spins easy when new. That is a sign that China did not pack the bearing with grease.
I use a vaccinating needle on my grease gun and pack them kind if I cannot pop the seal out.
Install the pulleys and test.
#39
B
bertsmobile1
OK for a shopping trolley but not for a spindle or mower pulley
B
bertsmobile1
Unless you buy premium brand bearings that are genuine, most now dats seem to come with nothing but assembly / transport lube in themThey are most likely full of grease.(which is a good thing)
They will turn free after they have ran for awhile.
1/8 inch in the flat pulley will still be ok.
I quite often buy a bearing or bearing/pulley now days and it free wheel spins easy when new. That is a sign that China did not pack the bearing with grease.
I use a vaccinating needle on my grease gun and pack them kind if I cannot pop the seal out.
Install the pulleys and test.
OK for a shopping trolley but not for a spindle or mower pulley
#40
tgzzzz
tgzzzz
My JD had same issues. Crummy design.
#41
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Freddie21
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Freddie21
Hey Biggs, JD along with others, don't manufacture their own parts. They have suppliers for that.
One unit I had, I just shimmed between the shoulder bolt and the sector gear to get a nice spacing. Use thinner washers so it can be put to where you like it. Also, it there a guide bushing 1\2 or higher up the steering shaft that may be worn too?
One unit I had, I just shimmed between the shoulder bolt and the sector gear to get a nice spacing. Use thinner washers so it can be put to where you like it. Also, it there a guide bushing 1\2 or higher up the steering shaft that may be worn too?
#42
T
the.doc
Thought that it might be a good idea to get some of that so I did a search for "CRC dry Lithium Chassis grease" and got no hits. Could you post maybe an item number or maybe a picture of the container? got lots of hits for lithium grease bur "dry" and "chassis" were a problem.
thanks
T
the.doc
Newbie here.And from memory there are 2 of them
After that there is the problem of the steering pins in the front cross member , have they been greased ?
And of course the bushes in the wheels themselves
Wear in any or all of them puts excessive load on the fan gear
Replacing the fan gear & bushes is one of those 5 hands jobs
Finally did you lubricate the fan gear & pinion ?
Mine always get a good shot of dry Lithium Chassis grease ( CRC Product )
What I see is paint transfer from the fan gear to the pinion
Thought that it might be a good idea to get some of that so I did a search for "CRC dry Lithium Chassis grease" and got no hits. Could you post maybe an item number or maybe a picture of the container? got lots of hits for lithium grease bur "dry" and "chassis" were a problem.
thanks
#43
B
bigjake
The tractor does make a slight whining sound going up even the slightest slope, it has always done that in the 5 years that I have had it. Not sure if that is normal? It does not make that sound on level ground.
Thanks for your help and guidance guys!
B
bigjake
I installed the new idler pulleys and the tractor now runs fine (so far) with no belt slippage. I cut the back hill and went up the steep side about 20 times with no hesitation at all. It did get stuck once going over an exposed tree root but the rear tire spun as it should, instead of the belt slipping.They are most likely full of grease.(which is a good thing)
They will turn free after they have ran for awhile.
1/8 inch in the flat pulley will still be ok.
I quite often buy a bearing or bearing/pulley now days and it free wheel spins easy when new. That is a sign that China did not pack the bearing with grease.
I use a vaccinating needle on my grease gun and pack them kind if I cannot pop the seal out.
Install the pulleys and test.
The tractor does make a slight whining sound going up even the slightest slope, it has always done that in the 5 years that I have had it. Not sure if that is normal? It does not make that sound on level ground.
Thanks for your help and guidance guys!
#44
F
Forest#2
F
Forest#2
Thanks for the come back.
Good to see that you did not have to use more of your Duck tape to build up the diameter of the flat idler pulley.
You will eventually need more of that Duck tape on the steering area.
That JD machine will operate more user friendly if you will use JD Green or Yellow Duck tape or a mixture of both so as to blend and not be noticeable.
Another tip: I wear sunglasses to reduce the eye burn/strain from them JD Grn/Yeller paint, especially on a sunny day when working on them.
If they could just make the rest of them machines last as long as their paint we would have a winner keeper.
Them slopes you are mowing in straining that JD constantly.
Good to see that you did not have to use more of your Duck tape to build up the diameter of the flat idler pulley.
You will eventually need more of that Duck tape on the steering area.
That JD machine will operate more user friendly if you will use JD Green or Yellow Duck tape or a mixture of both so as to blend and not be noticeable.
Another tip: I wear sunglasses to reduce the eye burn/strain from them JD Grn/Yeller paint, especially on a sunny day when working on them.
If they could just make the rest of them machines last as long as their paint we would have a winner keeper.
Them slopes you are mowing in straining that JD constantly.
#45
B
bigjake
B
bigjake
Actually, it turned out that the play in the pinion gear was due to the bottom bushing having slight side to side play in the hole in the frame. Youtube shows the bushings just being popped into place, but I rotated the bushings 90 degrees to fit snugly and that elimianted the side to side play. Pinion and Sector gear now mesh perfectly. No duct tapeThanks for the come back.
Good to see that you did not have to use more of your Duck tape to build up the diameter of the flat idler pulley.
You will eventually need more of that Duck tape on the steering area.
That JD machine will operate more user friendly if you will use JD Green or Yellow Duck tape or a mixture of both so as to blend and not be noticeable.
Another tip: I wear sunglasses to reduce the eye burn/strain from them JD Grn/Yeller paint, especially on a sunny day when working on them.
If they could just make the rest of them machines last as long as their paint we would have a winner keeper.
Them slopes you are mowing in straining that JD constantly.