Export thread

This will probably be for Robert.

Honda HRR216VKA, Ser#MZCG-9501855, purchased 7/18/15.

Ran great for a year. This summer the rear wheels stopped rolling in reverse or if they did I was on asphalt. I have followed the cable adjustment procedure, pulled both rear wheels and cleaned the gear area. I have used a spring scale and it takes 40+ pounds of force to the wheels to roll backwards with the cable adjusted correctly or all the way loose. With the smart drive engaged the mower goes forward great.

I am finally getting around to fixing the problem, what next?

Your rear wheel bushings have seized. This is the one major problem with Honda mowers. Other than this they are great machines. If I had one improvement to suggest for these mowers, it would be the addition of high quality bearings on the axle shaft instead of Teflon bushings.

I have to clean or replace my bushings every 20-30 hours to keep the wheels rolling backwards. Typically the replacement bushings will need service more often than the original ones. Only reason I don't go to Toro is because I can't stand their Personal Pace drive system.

Hmm, maybe I'll try putting Smart Drive on a Toro... :laughing:

That was the problem! Took all the parts apart, cleaned, greased and put back together. I wish Honda would put this in the manual next to the cable adjustment. It is just as necessary. I did not have any Teflon bushings, just steel on steel.

You can't have steel on steel. I tried replacing the Teflon bushings with metal ones. About 50 hours later, the sand had eaten big grooves in the wheel height adjusters and ruined the axle shaft.

I do, steel running thru the steel height adjuster assembly. There was a rubber seal on the inboard side.

I looked up the parts diagram and it's the same diagram as mine. There are Teflon bushings pressed into the wheel height adjusters. They are grey and can easily be mistaken for steel. There is a rubber seal on the inboard side just like you describe, it's pressed in there. You can remove it with a flatblade screwdriver. Under that seal there is a Teflon bushing that goes all the way through to the other side.

Here's the parts diagram, bushings are #15:

http://peparts.honda.com/powerequipment#/browse/lm/hrr/hrr216/HRR216K9-VKAA

They look like this: http://www.shankshondaparts.com/med...139433887a97daa66f/4/4/44327-VG3-B00_01cw.jpg

Thanks for the info. l will check at a year when I break it all down to clean and lube it.

Same problem here,cleaned bushing--lube, put that together and still not rolling back.Removed gear box checking on bench turning very nice.What I did is put washer -spacer between pulleys discs .Now belt go little deeper in to the pulley.Lot of work but that baby moving--rolling back easy.

Just pull the wheels and use some good silicone grease on the axles. I've been using my Honda mower for years and have never had a stuck wheel bushing.

sprayed rear wheels with lubricant without taking anything apart it pulled backwards just fine.

The only mower I have found this on is an old HRR that has been in use for 20 years in several different places and not particularly well-treated. I have gone over it several times but since it was used to mulch and the deck never cleaned, the whole discharge box on the rear is rotten now and holes are popping up in the deck - but the engine is amazingly still good. The last time I saw it, the complaint was not pulling back. I have a wide assortment of spray lubes of many kinds. The best one I have seen in my life is Slick 50 One Lube Aerosol. I won't take the time to describe the many ways I have had it work where nothing else would, but it does. I used this to simply spray into the axle bushings on each side and it worked instantly and lasted. I have put wheels on this mower twice and replaced the blade set. Naturally I use Castrol Edge synthetic 10W-30 in it and I don't know how many air filters. I am actually astonished that it is still in service. I always had the idea that the OHC engines were not as durable as an old flathead, but that is completely wrong. When this mower is done, it will be because of a rusted-out deck - not the engine.

I found the belt is also a cause of the mower non-reversing. Always use OE Honda belts as aftermarket belts aren't manufactured to work with the Honda slip clutch transmission. After adjusting the transmission
cable, turn the mower over and without the transmission lever engaged, turn a rear wheel in reverse and confirm the transmission pulley spins freely under the loose belt. If the belt prevents the pulley from turning, it will lock up in forward gear and not reverse. Honda OE belts allow the slip clutch function to work.

Savvy Solver said:

If the belt prevents the pulley from turning, it will lock up in forward gear and not reverse.

Click to expand...

That is incorrect. If it does lock up going forward you have a problem with the ratcheting gear on the drive shaft.

Briantii said:

That is incorrect. If it does lock up going forward you have a problem with the ratcheting gear on the drive shaft.

Click to expand...

Clarification, what I meant by wheel lock up in forward gear is the transmission is engaged to move forward when it shouldn't, preventing the mower from being pulled in reverse. The ratcheting gear on the rear wheel always allows the mower to roll forward. BTW I tried both OE and aftermarket belts, the OE belt allows the slip clutch to function, the aftermarket belt doesn't.

Savvy Solver said:

Clarification, what I meant by wheel lock up in forward gear is the transmission is engaged to move forward when it shouldn't, preventing the mower from being pulled in reverse. The ratcheting gear on the rear wheel always allows the mower to roll forward. BTW I tried both OE and aftermarket belts, the OE belt allows the slip clutch to function, the aftermarket belt doesn't.

Click to expand...

Gotcha, I see what you mean. Just wanted to make sure it was clear.

Briantii said:

Gotcha, I see what you mean. Just wanted to make sure it was clear.

Click to expand...

Many posts in other forums have reported their mowers having this problem return or unresolved even after complete overhauls which included from cleaning/lubricating/adjusting/replacing axles, pulleys and bearings, checking the pinion gear and ratchet key, to overhauling/replacing the transmission.
When I replaced a Honda OE drive belt with an aftermarket belt, the mower immediately stopped reversing no matter how it was adjusted. Changing to a new Honda OE belt immediately resolved the problem. A simple way to check if the belt is the problem is with the transmission cable properly adjusted and disengaged, turn the mower over and turn a rear wheel by hand and observe if the transmission pulley slides under the belt. If it doesn't, the belt is grabbing and isn't allowing the Smart Drive slip clutch transmission to reverse. Would like to hear if this resolves some non-reversing problems.

Savvy Solver said:

Many posts in other forums have reported their mowers having this problem return or unresolved even after complete overhauls which included from cleaning/lubricating/adjusting/replacing axles, pulleys and bearings, checking the pinion gear and ratchet key, to overhauling/replacing the transmission.
When I replaced a Honda OE drive belt with an aftermarket belt, the mower immediately stopped reversing no matter how it was adjusted. Changing to a new Honda OE belt immediately resolved the problem. A simple way to check if the belt is the problem is with the transmission cable properly adjusted and disengaged, turn the mower over and turn a rear wheel by hand and observe if the transmission pulley slides under the belt. If it doesn't, the belt is grabbing and isn't allowing the Smart Drive slip clutch transmission to reverse. Would like to hear if this resolves some non-reversing problems.

Click to expand...

The majority of the issues I’ve seen and have been discussed here are caused by gunk getting in the axle bushings. In my case I’ve been able to gunk up bushings in as few as 1-2 hours... I suspect this is why people don’t think it’s the fix. The problem is that the design is fundamentally flawed and has no protection for the wheel side of the adjuster. Adding a dust seal there after cleaning it and lubing it up seems to be a much longer term fix. I converted mine to bearings and added the 2nd seal. It’s by far the best solution I’ve tried yet. It rolls backwards better most new ones even. The belt for sure can cause problems, but I believe those are less common based on the work / research we’ve done here. There is another thread where a few of us are running variations on improved designs and every one of them that adds protection to the wheel side is seeing marked improvement.

Here is the tread. It’s long but really good info if you’re looking to permanently solve Honda’s mistake.

I anticipated the question was from someone knowing little about the problem or how the product works, and I offered simple solutions first (KISS principle). After reading the 14 page thread, I realized how much time you guys have put in this issue with skills and resources that are out of my league, and I admire your efforts and appreciate your satisfaction. The residential grade mowers are unfortunately manufactured with a balance of quality and "planned obsolescence", so If the mower can't be easily or economically fixed, the company hopes people will just buy "improved" new or higher grade ones.

Savvy Solver said:

I anticipated the question was from someone knowing little about the problem or how the product works, and I offered simple solutions first (KISS principle). After reading the 14 page thread, I realized how much time you guys have put in this issue with skills and resources that are out of my league, and I admire your efforts and appreciate your satisfaction. The residential grade mowers are unfortunately manufactured with a balance of quality and "planned obsolescence", so If the mower can't be easily or economically fixed, the company hopes people will just buy "improved" new or higher grade ones.

Click to expand...

Hey no worries we’re all here for each other. There is a TON of misinformation regarding how to fix this problem so I just try to correct / clarify anything that looks off. If you want a good laugh / sad engineering prowess... checkout all the YouTube videos that recommend cleaning the pinion gear.

Thanks and welcome! Hopefully the info can help / give you some ideas if yours starts acting up again. Converserly if you come up with something better, please share. :-D

Briantii said:

Hey no worries we’re all here for each other. There is a TON of misinformation regarding how to fix this problem so I just try to correct / clarify anything that looks off. If you want a good laugh / sad engineering prowess... checkout all the YouTube videos that recommend cleaning the pinion gear.

Thanks and welcome! Hopefully the info can help / give you some ideas if yours starts acting up again. Converserly if you come up with something better, please share. :-D

Click to expand...

Briantii - Thanks for the welcome and sharing of your skills, I think we must all have the fixit DNA in us, and it's a gratifying hobby learning. Since retiring, this is the 3rd forum I've joined (the others being DIY and Fixya), and frankly I need to keep the computer use down or face the wife's wrath! Stay safe and be healthy!

Savvy Solver said:

Briantii - Thanks for the welcome and sharing of your skills, I think we must all have the fixit DNA in us, and it's a gratifying hobby learning. Since retiring, this is the 3rd forum I've joined (the others being DIY and Fixya), and frankly I need to keep the computer use down or face the wife's wrath! Stay safe and be healthy!

Click to expand...

I know the feeling. Don’t get an iPad, it makes it too easy to use on the couch! Stay safe and healthy too!