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Hello everyone,

Long time small engine mechanic, having a hair pulling issue with a lawn mower in the shop. It's a dixie chopper silver eagle with a 27 HP kawasaki engine. I'm getting a signal to the starter when I turn the key, but all it does is "click" "click". OK, simple, its the starter solenoid not working, you would think. But, I can run a jumper wire from the battery cable to the small post on the solenoid and it cranks just fine, no problem whatsoever. Test the signal wire to the solenoid and it's getting 12V when you turn the key.

After dicking around with it for awhile, I finally decide to just replace the solenoid anyway, it must just be weak or corroded or something.

Still the same thing. "Click" Click" Touch the solenoid post with a hot wire and it fires right up.

Could I not be getting enough amps to the solenoid? like a bad connection, even though it's getting a 12V signal enough to make it click??

What about grounds? Gotta have some good ones. Some solenoids require a good clean ground. How is the main ground from the battery - post? And the other end of this cable? Look for a poor ground or bad solenoid. Also new parts don't mean they are new. Might be a defective little guy. Check the wiring diagram for any other grounds missing or corroded.

slomo

I worked on a Dixie Chopper about a month ago, I can't recall the model # or what was weird about it but, it had a weird way to activate the starter system, it took a minute to figure it out. Had to be in the seat for one thing....it was kinda a different set-up then most mowers! I wish I could recall exactly what it was....but after a month....nope!

Is this a solenoid shift starter?

slomo said:

What about grounds? Gotta have some good ones. Some solenoids require a good clean ground. How is the main ground from the battery - post? And the other end of this cable? Look for a poor ground or bad solenoid. Also new parts don't mean they are new. Might be a defective little guy. Check the wiring diagram for any other grounds missing or corroded.

slomo

Click to expand...

this ^^^^^^

i just spent a day chasing the same symptoms as you even after i replaced the battery

so next i replaced the solenoid and no joy, then the wire from solenoid to starter and still not working so i replaced the starter and still does nothing but click (all were confirmed good working used spare parts i keep on hand from mowers i scrapped)

after all that i went back to my shade tree mechanic days and broke out the jumper cables and jumped all power connections from battery to the source

turned out all it was was the main ground connection from the frame was corroded and no longer letting any amps flow yet it still read 12v on the test meter with everything. made a new ground point and connections and its all good now

StarTech said:

Is this a solenoid shift starter?

Click to expand...

I believe that's what its called. Its one that's made onto the starter that also pushes the gear up

keakar said:

this ^^^^^^

i just spent a day chasing the same symptoms as you even after i replaced the battery

so next i replaced the solenoid and no joy, then the wire from solenoid to starter and still not working so i replaced the starter and still does nothing but click (all were confirmed good working used spare parts i keep on hand from mowers i scrapped)

after all that i went back to my shade tree mechanic days and broke out the jumper cables and jumped all power connections from battery to the source

turned out all it was was the main ground connection from the frame was corroded and no longer letting any amps flow yet it still read 12v on the test meter with everything. made a new ground point and connections and its all good now

Click to expand...

I know bad grounds can often be the source of the problem. Been through that a few times. This "seems" to be something else though. I've already removed the frame ground and reattached it, and the battery post and terminals look brand new. It has the automotive style round lugs and everything is tight and clean. Starter spins and cranks the mower easily when I run a small positive wire directly to the spade on the solenoid. Just touch the wire to it and it engages. Getting the same 12V charge from the wiring harness (when key is turned to "start" of course) and nothing but "click"

Somehow, the 12V + from the wiring harness is different from the 12 V + direct jumper wire

Edit: would also like to add that "sometimes", like 1 out of 10, the thing will actually crank with the key. Most of the time it will not. Although it will click every time.

It seems like it HAS to be a lack of amps reaching the solenoid, although this is a new one on me. It has enough amps to make a very audible "click" I can touch the solenoid and feel something moving in there. "Click" "Click" "Click" a hundred times in a row if you feel like clicking away. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click

Touch it one time with the jumper wire and it fires right up

You probably have a corroded connection somewhere in the circuit. No load you will measure battery voltage through considerable resistance. Try this test. Connect volt meter to positive on battery and the other lead to the signal wire at the solenoid but have the signal wire connected to the solenoid. When you turn the key and you get the click see what the voltage is. It should be less than about half a volt but i will bet it it is in the 4 to 6 volt range which indicates a bad connection somewhere in the circuit from the battery to solenoid.

cbs123 said:

It seems like it HAS to be a lack of amps reaching the solenoid, although this is a new one on me. It has enough amps to make a very audible "click" I can touch the solenoid and feel something moving in there. "Click" "Click" "Click" a hundred times in a row if you feel like clicking away. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click. Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click Click

Touch it one time with the jumper wire and it fires right up

Click to expand...

well that is just it, in my case and possibly yours as well, the positive wire has full voltage and amp capacity but the ground wire to mower frame bad connection was where no amps are being allowed to flow. the ground wire is where you need to look. hook jumper cables from battery ground to the engine fins and i bet it fires right up

cbs123 said:

I know bad grounds can often be the source of the problem. Been through that a few times. This "seems" to be something else though. I've already removed the frame ground and reattached it, and the battery post and terminals look brand new. It has the automotive style round lugs and everything is tight and clean. Starter spins and cranks the mower easily when I run a small positive wire directly to the spade on the solenoid. Just touch the wire to it and it engages. Getting the same 12V charge from the wiring harness (when key is turned to "start" of course) and nothing but "click"

Somehow, the 12V + from the wiring harness is different from the 12 V + direct jumper wire

Edit: would also like to add that "sometimes", like 1 out of 10, the thing will actually crank with the key. Most of the time it will not. Although it will click every time.

Click to expand...

Ignition switch or solenoid is bad.

First thing I look at is grounds. Most people neglect it or overlook them. They attack the + wires all day.

slomo

keakar said:

this ^^^^^^

i just spent a day chasing the same symptoms as you even after i replaced the battery

so next i replaced the solenoid and no joy, then the wire from solenoid to starter and still not working so i replaced the starter and still does nothing but click (all were confirmed good working used spare parts i keep on hand from mowers i scrapped)

after all that i went back to my shade tree mechanic days and broke out the jumper cables and jumped all power connections from battery to the source

turned out all it was was the main ground connection from the frame was corroded and no longer letting any amps flow yet it still read 12v on the test meter with everything. made a new ground point and connections and its all good now

Click to expand...

Yup, jumper cables do other things too.

slomo

Hammermechanicman said:

You probably have a corroded connection somewhere in the circuit. No load you will measure battery voltage through considerable resistance. Try this test. Connect volt meter to positive on battery and the other lead to the signal wire at the solenoid but have the signal wire connected to the solenoid. When you turn the key and you get the click see what the voltage is. It should be less than about half a volt but i will bet it it is in the 4 to 6 volt range which indicates a bad connection somewhere in the circuit from the battery to solenoid.

Click to expand...

Thanks everybody for the replies.

Haven't had a chance to check it for last couple of days. I just performed this test, and sure enough it goes from 12.5 V to 6 V when I turn the key. So the issue must be in the wiring from the key switch to the solenoid. Bad thing is, it travels through a PTO switch (which I've already tried a new switch in, as well as a new ignition switch) and three safety switches, and a harness connector. I suppose I can perform the same test through each switch or connector and try to narrow down where the problem is. Or will that work?

Thanks Hammer for that good adivce, much appreciated

keakar said:

well that is just it, in my case and possibly yours as well, the positive wire has full voltage and amp capacity but the ground wire to mower frame bad connection was where no amps are being allowed to flow. the ground wire is where you need to look. hook jumper cables from battery ground to the engine fins and i bet it fires right up

Click to expand...

Just tried that. Still just clicks. I'm thinking a weak connection somewhere in + side of wiring. Gotta love wiring problems lol

Run that same test at the battery. If it drops below 9V, bad battery. If it is 10V or more battery good and you must then proceed down the positive side, testing each connect to find where you have a voltage drop. Pain in the butt, just like most electrical troubleshooting. Patience and an assistant will be of great help to you. Good Luck.

These kinds of problems are just so much fun. First thing is one at a time pull the connector off of the switches and plug back in about ten times to "clean" the connectors. If it starts working you need to fix the bad connection. Clean or replace the spade connector pins. If that doesn't work will need to bypass each switch one at a time till you find the bad switch. The test you did was a voltage drop test. A good reading is less than half a volt not battery voltage. You are testing the current carrying ability of a part of a circuit. It seems counter intuitive to some folks not measuring to ground but on the same wire. When you find the problem do the test again and see if you get about half a volt. Good luck.
To make life easier disconnect the wire from the solenoid and connect a 12v bulb to it and ground then pull the connector off the ignition switch and jump the B and S terminals. This should give you a dim bulb. When you find the problem the bulb will go bright. Save you massive time not having to keep turning the key to test.

cbs123 said:

Thanks everybody for the replies.

Haven't had a chance to check it for last couple of days. I just performed this test, and sure enough it goes from 12.5 V to 6 V when I turn the key. So the issue must be in the wiring from the key switch to the solenoid. Bad thing is, it travels through a PTO switch (which I've already tried a new switch in, as well as a new ignition switch) and three safety switches, and a harness connector I suppose I can perform the same test through each switch or connector and try to narrow down where the problem is. Or will that work?

Thanks Hammer for that good adivce, much appreciated

Click to expand...

To test at each switch or connection you need to add a load. Meter won't find the problem.

Bad connections and long wire can cause huge voltage drops under load. Place your meter leads across the starter relay control wires and try starting. What is the voltage across the solenoid? IF under 10v then work your way back to battery by the voltage at control switch. Once you go to full battery you have pin pointed the problem as do voltage drop tests under load. Bad gronds is just one source of problems. Bad Packard wire terminals cam be another source as the spring contact hinge breaks. Or just the starting I just repaired yesterday. The B (battery) terminal of the ignition switch had 12v until I tried starting then it would drop completely out. It turned out to be the positive battery terminal at the solenoid where the ignition B power supply provided had corroded internally. Same thing can happen on the negative cable. The terminal might be clean on the outside but corroded on the inside; Hence, why we do voltage drop tests to find a bad connection.

Now on JD with Kawasaki or Kohler solenoid shift starters I have added help relay due huge voltage drops the starter trigger wiring run.

Hammermechanicman said:

These kinds of problems are just so much fun. First thing is one at a time pull the connector off of the switches and plug back in about ten times to "clean" the connectors. If it starts working you need to fix the bad connection. Clean or replace the spade connector pins. If that doesn't work will need to bypass each switch one at a time till you find the bad switch. The test you did was a voltage drop test. A good reading is less than half a volt not battery voltage. You are testing the current carrying ability of a part of a circuit. It seems counter intuitive to some folks not measuring to ground but on the same wire. When you find the problem do the test again and see if you get about half a volt. Good luck.
To make life easier disconnect the wire from the solenoid and connect a 12v bulb to it and ground then pull the connector off the ignition switch and jump the B and S terminals. This should give you a dim bulb. When you find the problem the bulb will go bright. Save you massive time not having to keep turning the key to test.

Click to expand...

Awesome advice, thanks a lot for the help!

Unfortunately we are still wrestling this bear. I made a light tester like you mentioned. But the bulb seems to be just as bright when testing it on the solenoid wire as when connected directly to the battery. Either way, its a good idea and one ill use in the future I'm sure. As well as jumping the ignition packard. We've been working for hours trying to find the source of our anguish. I'll let yall know if I ever find the problem with this thing

Something not right. If light is same brightness should have enough current the power solenoid.
If you connect wire from batt+ to small terminal on solenoid engine cranks over at proper speed (y/n)
Remove trigger wire from solenoid and connect meter from batt- to trigger wire and turn key to start. What is the potential voltage measured?
Reattach trigger wire to solenoid. Connect meter to batt- and trigger wire connection at solenoid. Turn key to start. What is measured voltage?
Move meter to batt + and trigger wire connection at solenoid. Turn key to start. What is the circuit voltage measured?

You have 12v and it drops to 6v when you try to start it..........all switches and solenoids have been replaced with known good ones........Ground wires checked........Battery cables checked.....load test the battery, it's gotta be bad.

I would suggest installing a help relay as it appear to be a voltage drop problem.

I agree, time to replace the battery.

Is it a single + trigger wire solenoid or a 2 wire (+ & - )

Hammermechanicman said:

Something not right. If light is same brightness should have enough current the power solenoid.
If you connect wire from batt+ to small terminal on solenoid engine cranks over at proper speed (y/n)
Remove trigger wire from solenoid and connect meter from batt- to trigger wire and turn key to start. What is the potential voltage measured?
Reattach trigger wire to solenoid. Connect meter to batt- and trigger wire connection at solenoid. Turn key to start. What is measured voltage?
Move meter to batt + and trigger wire connection at solenoid. Turn key to start. What is the circuit voltage measured?

Click to expand...

Thanks again for the help everyone. We never could figure out the problem, although it did seem to get better about cranking with the key. The battery seemed to have plenty of voltage and amperage, because you could jump the solenoid and it would spin and crank very easily. Just when you tried it with the key it would just click alot. Voltage getting all the way to solenoid (single post solenoid) but just click click click. Touch it one time with jumper wire and cranks easily every time. We even tried jumping every safety terminal with short pieces of jumper wire to try to narrow down the problem and it would still do it. Checked and cleaned connections more times than I can count and still had the problem. I told the customer what was happening and suggested the only solution might be to replace the entire harness, although I could see nothing wrong with the old one. No melted ends, or corroded ends.

Gotta love electrical problems

To me that sounds like a bad ground on the solenoid. If you have a four terminal solenoid, figure out which of the small terminals is going to ground and either replace it, or make sure the end which is attached to the frame is clean and tight.

Go out tonight and turn the key in the dark while someone watches, if you see a spark, that will be the weak connection.

Post #13 is key here. He verified in that post he's seeing a 6V drop in the positive chain when trying to start. As others have mentioned, you need to take your meter and ground the - lead and work your way back from the solenoid to the battery and measure the voltage on each side of every device WHILE THE KEY IS IN THE START POSITION, in other words, under load. The voltage across all safety switches, PTO switch, ignition switch etc that are in series between the battery and the solenoid need to be measured. In a perfect world, only one of those devices is causing the 6 volt drop and that's what needs to be replaced. However don't be surprised if you see a couple of volts being dropped across multiple switches. Then you have multiple contributors to the problem. To be clear, the readings are meaningless without the load of the solenoid coil with the key in the start position. I promise you Ohm's law is still in effect here!

As Star Tech mentioned, you may find it easier to put in a helper relay. I did. I have a JD170 tractor(with Kaw motor) that was prone to this clicking problem and I had no desire to replace all the intermediate safety switches, ignition switch etc. Hasn't clicked once since. [google AM107421 for more info] This is the fix JD came up with as a field retrofit. In a nutshell you are using the trigger wire to power an external relay you locate near the starter assembly and it switches local battery power to the solenoid. The external relay is a much lighter load as it has a coil resistance of say 80 ohms drawing only 150mA as opposed to the solenoid which requires a number of amps which is over 10X more current. There is a much lower voltage drop through whatever extra resistance is in your trigger wire 'chain' (i.e. dirty/corroded switches/wires/connections) when 150mA or so is flowing vs the solenoid amperage.

FWIW,
I use a stack of bypass jumpers , short wires with a 1/4" spade terminal each end for the purpose of diagnosis .
I jump every switch then jump the B & S terminals on the key switch
No joy = bad connection or broken wire

If it fires right up then it is a matter of reconnecting all of the switches one at a time till it dosen't fire & you have the guilty party .

OTOH the relay to trip the solenoid isa very good idea and used on most of the better mowers where penny pinching to a rock bottom retail price is not part of the agenda

Rivets said:

To me that sounds like a bad ground on the solenoid. If you have a four terminal solenoid, figure out which of the small terminals is going to ground and either replace it, or make sure the end which is attached to the frame is clean and tight.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. The solenoid is made onto the starter and the entire starter is grounded directly to the battery with a big wire, 4 guage or whatever is used on mowers. Also have replaced the solenoid with the same problem. I believe the solenoid grounds through the starter when you bolt it all together

If you have a starter mounted solenoid and it just clicks when you turn the key, with a new solenoid, you either have a bad ground somewhere, a bad solenoid or a bad battery. Take a voltage reading at the starter, testing for voltage at both the small wire and the large wire, with the key in the start position. You should have 12+ VDC at both terminals.

Rivets said:

If you have a starter mounted solenoid and it just clicks when you turn the key, with a new solenoid, you either have a bad ground somewhere, a bad solenoid or a bad battery. Take a voltage reading at the starter, testing for voltage at both the small wire and the large wire, with the key in the start position. You should have 12+ VDC at both terminals.

Click to expand...

Yes, it would seem you are right. But...I can touch the solenoid with a small guage wire connected to the positive post of the battery and it cranks very easily. Which tells me the battery, solenoid, starter, and ground are all good. It does get 12v to the solenoid when I turn the key also.

A very weird problem that is luckily no longer MY problem. lol