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Fix up old Cub or buy something new?
#1
T
three4re
T
three4re
Hi,
Long story that I'll condense as best I can. My tractor, a 129 hydro, is a 1972 model, built by IH. I've used it now for 47 years. Over that time, various things have gone wrong (though relatively minor for the most part), and a bit more major engine work just a few months ago. All was working fine until yesterday when a rod broke. I know this cause I pulled the head and noticed the valves are working but not the piston. I am uncertain as to what to do. This has been a highly dependable tractor and so a part of me is inclined to put a new Kohler 301 engine in it. On the other side of the coin, the entire tractor is the same age as the engine and no knowing how long all the other parts will last.
So, I'm faced with deciding on what I want to replace it with (if that will be the chosen option). Any suggestions? I do not hear good things regarding MTD - at least relative to the new Cubs. And, have talked to many people in the business that suggest fixing up this old Cub is the better way to go. I also hear stories about almost any new tractor as only lasting 3-5 years.
I need something that has a good amount of weight to it since I also plow large amounts of snow at my property when we get significant storms.
Thanks for any suggestions...
Keith
Long story that I'll condense as best I can. My tractor, a 129 hydro, is a 1972 model, built by IH. I've used it now for 47 years. Over that time, various things have gone wrong (though relatively minor for the most part), and a bit more major engine work just a few months ago. All was working fine until yesterday when a rod broke. I know this cause I pulled the head and noticed the valves are working but not the piston. I am uncertain as to what to do. This has been a highly dependable tractor and so a part of me is inclined to put a new Kohler 301 engine in it. On the other side of the coin, the entire tractor is the same age as the engine and no knowing how long all the other parts will last.
So, I'm faced with deciding on what I want to replace it with (if that will be the chosen option). Any suggestions? I do not hear good things regarding MTD - at least relative to the new Cubs. And, have talked to many people in the business that suggest fixing up this old Cub is the better way to go. I also hear stories about almost any new tractor as only lasting 3-5 years.
I need something that has a good amount of weight to it since I also plow large amounts of snow at my property when we get significant storms.
Thanks for any suggestions...
Keith
#2
7394
7394
I think a tear down just to see what is all actually damaged would be first priority. Pics of things would be helpful.
So It sounds like the rod did not make a hole in the block, that's a plus at least.
So It sounds like the rod did not make a hole in the block, that's a plus at least.
#3
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
You have one of the old mules, which I mean, if you give it a sugar cube it will continue to provide you service. Here’s what I would recommend you do. Find the oldest, most trusted small engine mechanic in your area and pay to have him take a look at your engine. He will have the knowledge of these engines needed to give you a recommendation. He doesn’t have to be servicing engines now, you want to use his brain. You’ll be looking for someone with a minimum of 30 years experience, back then we rebuilt instead of replace, so his background will be invaluable to you. We cannot see what you are talking about, which means we would only be guessing. I just got done rebuilding a K341 at a total cost of $650, didn’t think it was worth it until I saw the rest of the unit. Don’t forget to look at the older guys working for farm implement dealers, they started on small engines. Better to pay for an opinion, than to pay for a mistake. Good Luck.
#4
T
three4re
T
three4re
All good thoughts and much appreciated. Lots to think about with it. I am in contact with a guy who rebuilds the old engines - he gave me a good price on a short block he's currently finishing up and also said he could expand to the point where I'd have a "drop-in" engine tuned and ready to go. The sentimental part of me that is so attached to this Cub truly wants to have it fixed, especially when I hear about the new mowers not lasting very long in many cases. A tear-down is undoubtedly in order, but I can't imagine that the diagnosis would reveal anything other than needing to put a new engine in it. I wouldn't think that putting a new rod, piston, rings, etc. into the old block would be advisable. Talked to a local dealer who suggests I buy a new Simplicity "Conquest" model as a worthy replacement for the Cub. $5800 including the deck and snow plow. So I guess a next step is to go see one of those, read reviews, etc. and try to find out how they hold up. No new tractor will be built like the Cub, but this Conquest certainly has about the same weight as mine. The dealer also rebuilds the Kohlers and is very familiar with my Cub and the old engines, etc., and recommends not doing it (the rebuild). My brother, who is a mechanic and runs the shop that just worked on my Cub just a few months ago (wasn't running and took valve work along with new carb, voltage regulator, coil, etc.) also does not think it's worth putting more money into.
#5
cpurvis
cpurvis
Even if you buy the new mower, DO NOT trade in the Cub or let it get out of your possession.
I have a 24 year old AGS2140, which is a good mower compared to what's available today and will still have it when I croak.
Your Cub is a step above mine. I made the mistake of letting our 1970 107 (or 109? I can't remember; it was the 10 hp version of yours) get away from me and have regretted it ever since.
I have a 24 year old AGS2140, which is a good mower compared to what's available today and will still have it when I croak.
Your Cub is a step above mine. I made the mistake of letting our 1970 107 (or 109? I can't remember; it was the 10 hp version of yours) get away from me and have regretted it ever since.
#6
M
mrfred54
M
mrfred54
Rebuild it. you have one of the best cadets ever built. doing a 129 right now myself. these kohler engines are just about bullet proof. look at how many years it has already given you. while at it change the hytran and filter for the diff. and hydro. also make sure the fan is in good order on the drive shaft. good luck and do what is right for the ole girl:
#7
T
three4re
T
three4re
Thanks....leaning towards fixing it. Interesting that you mention that fan, since a few blades on it have been broken for years. The guy from whom I'm thinking of getting the rebuilt engine says best time to replace it is when the old engine is out. Not quite sure how to do it, but I'm sure they can tell me on the Cub Cadet forum.
Update...7/9... Just looked at the Simplicity Conquest today. Nice enough tractor and I'm sure is built well, etc. but what I noticed right away is how complicated everything appears to be. My local IH dealer had mentioned that, from his viewpoint, they are not real easy to work on. I sort of got the same feeling. The deck appears to come off easy enough, but also looks big and bulky. Electric motor to raise and lower the deck. I didn't get the impression that it's real easy to take the blades off to sharpen them but I may be wrong. My Cub is basically very easy to work on and just seems so much more uncluttered.
The Simplicity dealer quoted me around $8600 including deck and snow plow, whereas the shop that I'd buy the complete engine from (not just short or long block - but total engine minus the S/G) quoted me $1650 (once I get a refund on the core).
Update...7/9... Just looked at the Simplicity Conquest today. Nice enough tractor and I'm sure is built well, etc. but what I noticed right away is how complicated everything appears to be. My local IH dealer had mentioned that, from his viewpoint, they are not real easy to work on. I sort of got the same feeling. The deck appears to come off easy enough, but also looks big and bulky. Electric motor to raise and lower the deck. I didn't get the impression that it's real easy to take the blades off to sharpen them but I may be wrong. My Cub is basically very easy to work on and just seems so much more uncluttered.
The Simplicity dealer quoted me around $8600 including deck and snow plow, whereas the shop that I'd buy the complete engine from (not just short or long block - but total engine minus the S/G) quoted me $1650 (once I get a refund on the core).
#8
7394
7394
Decisions, decisions..... :confused2:
#10
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
When Briggs took over Simplicity they made very few changes.
I am assuming that it was part of their vertical intergration plan to ensure there will always be a market for their engines.
implicities were never that, Simple, but they are excellent mowers and that one should be around long enough to mow the grass over your grave.
AS time goes by more & more moron lawers keep getting cases in front of bleeding heart judges who award silly compensation payouts to people who really should have either been allowed to die of fined for their own stupidity.
Thus to prove the mowers are being made idiot proof, they get more & more complicated and you can expect this to happen at an accelerating rate.
Simplicity has always been a top end mower so if the perfect design requires 15 idler pulleys, then they fit 15 idler pulleys.
I am always reminded of a customer with an old Bolens.
His father had bought it, when he moved onto acreage and he had now inherited the mower & the estate.
It needed a new belt, the first one that had ever been put on the deck so it had run better than 20 years, but fitting it was a nightmare as there were pulleys & guides everywhere so when the deck moved through it's 6" cutting range the belt run remained almst strait from one pulley to another.
Now days to cut cost they just fit deeper grooved pulleys which wear out belts 50 times faster.
I use a yard crane to lift the mowers up so I can get underneath them comfortably and for tractor type mowers that might mean standing them up near vertical
Inside the shop I use an engine crane for the same purpose.
We use an old Dexion pallet racking beam as a spreader bar and with that I can lift the entire mower 4' in the air.
A younger friend drives his mower up onto his tall trailer then he puts stands under the ramps and runs off the trailer so the mower is sitting about 2' off the ground to work underneath it.
The real question you need to think about is how comfortable the Simplicity is for you to drive now and in the future.
I am assuming that it was part of their vertical intergration plan to ensure there will always be a market for their engines.
implicities were never that, Simple, but they are excellent mowers and that one should be around long enough to mow the grass over your grave.
AS time goes by more & more moron lawers keep getting cases in front of bleeding heart judges who award silly compensation payouts to people who really should have either been allowed to die of fined for their own stupidity.
Thus to prove the mowers are being made idiot proof, they get more & more complicated and you can expect this to happen at an accelerating rate.
Simplicity has always been a top end mower so if the perfect design requires 15 idler pulleys, then they fit 15 idler pulleys.
I am always reminded of a customer with an old Bolens.
His father had bought it, when he moved onto acreage and he had now inherited the mower & the estate.
It needed a new belt, the first one that had ever been put on the deck so it had run better than 20 years, but fitting it was a nightmare as there were pulleys & guides everywhere so when the deck moved through it's 6" cutting range the belt run remained almst strait from one pulley to another.
Now days to cut cost they just fit deeper grooved pulleys which wear out belts 50 times faster.
I use a yard crane to lift the mowers up so I can get underneath them comfortably and for tractor type mowers that might mean standing them up near vertical
Inside the shop I use an engine crane for the same purpose.
We use an old Dexion pallet racking beam as a spreader bar and with that I can lift the entire mower 4' in the air.
A younger friend drives his mower up onto his tall trailer then he puts stands under the ramps and runs off the trailer so the mower is sitting about 2' off the ground to work underneath it.
The real question you need to think about is how comfortable the Simplicity is for you to drive now and in the future.
#11
T
three4re
Interesting that you mention Bolens. My Dad had one (can't recall the model) - big thing - huge deck. Unfortunately it wasn't in running condition when my brother and I auctioned off the contents of the house and attached garage. Couldn't even get beyond the initial asking bid of $100. Sad too cause it came with attachments that alone were worth a few hundred dollars.
Good to hear about the quality and durability of Simplicity. It's a tough call. I was a little taken aback when the dealer told me it'd be close to $2k just for the snow plow. Another $900 for the deck. It gets frustrating hearing somewhat conflicting stories from people I've talked to as well as researched online as to the attributes of the various tractor brands. It does seem an almost unarguable point that these old Cubs built by IH were really tough, well-built machines. Having mine for 47 years (with really no major issues up till now) is pretty much testament to that. I find it hard to imagine that any (or at least most) new tractors being built today will have that type of longevity.
I don't have the type of equipment you describe to lift and work on the decks - just me and my aging muscles. I'm so used to working with the Cub. IF the deck on the Simplicity is any heavier, that could present problems. They couldn't seem to tell me much about how easy (or hard) it is to take off the blades. I got the impression that people send these tractors in to them for routine maintenance and service. At least, they sure had a bunch of customers' Simplicities in the shop. That's fine, but I have no means of transporting any tractor. It's amazing to think that, other than my Dad doing a bit of overhaul work on my Cub (wish I knew exactly what was done) maybe 20 years or so ago, other than this recent episode where my brother refaced the valves and did a few other things, I'm betting it was only at a local repair facility 4 times total since I bought it in '81. So one of the big decision points now appears to be....is the tractor basically used up and worn out? If so, putting in a new engine seems foolish. Guys who work with these old Cubs all the time would seem to indicate that it may well have years of use left. A bit like rolling the dice. But then, every day is like that when you get right down to it.
T
three4re
When Briggs took over Simplicity they made very few changes.
I am assuming that it was part of their vertical intergration plan to ensure there will always be a market for their engines.
implicities were never that, Simple, but they are excellent mowers and that one should be around long enough to mow the grass over your grave.
AS time goes by more & more moron lawers keep getting cases in front of bleeding heart judges who award silly compensation payouts to people who really should have either been allowed to die of fined for their own stupidity.
Thus to prove the mowers are being made idiot proof, they get more & more complicated and you can expect this to happen at an accelerating rate.
Simplicity has always been a top end mower so if the perfect design requires 15 idler pulleys, then they fit 15 idler pulleys.
I am always reminded of a customer with an old Bolens.
His father had bought it, when he moved onto acreage and he had now inherited the mower & the estate.
It needed a new belt, the first one that had ever been put on the deck so it had run better than 20 years, but fitting it was a nightmare as there were pulleys & guides everywhere so when the deck moved through it's 6" cutting range the belt run remained almst strait from one pulley to another.
Now days to cut cost they just fit deeper grooved pulleys which wear out belts 50 times faster.
I use a yard crane to lift the mowers up so I can get underneath them comfortably and for tractor type mowers that might mean standing them up near vertical
Inside the shop I use an engine crane for the same purpose.
We use an old Dexion pallet racking beam as a spreader bar and with that I can lift the entire mower 4' in the air.
A younger friend drives his mower up onto his tall trailer then he puts stands under the ramps and runs off the trailer so the mower is sitting about 2' off the ground to work underneath it.
The real question you need to think about is how comfortable the Simplicity is for you to drive now and in the future.
Interesting that you mention Bolens. My Dad had one (can't recall the model) - big thing - huge deck. Unfortunately it wasn't in running condition when my brother and I auctioned off the contents of the house and attached garage. Couldn't even get beyond the initial asking bid of $100. Sad too cause it came with attachments that alone were worth a few hundred dollars.
Good to hear about the quality and durability of Simplicity. It's a tough call. I was a little taken aback when the dealer told me it'd be close to $2k just for the snow plow. Another $900 for the deck. It gets frustrating hearing somewhat conflicting stories from people I've talked to as well as researched online as to the attributes of the various tractor brands. It does seem an almost unarguable point that these old Cubs built by IH were really tough, well-built machines. Having mine for 47 years (with really no major issues up till now) is pretty much testament to that. I find it hard to imagine that any (or at least most) new tractors being built today will have that type of longevity.
I don't have the type of equipment you describe to lift and work on the decks - just me and my aging muscles. I'm so used to working with the Cub. IF the deck on the Simplicity is any heavier, that could present problems. They couldn't seem to tell me much about how easy (or hard) it is to take off the blades. I got the impression that people send these tractors in to them for routine maintenance and service. At least, they sure had a bunch of customers' Simplicities in the shop. That's fine, but I have no means of transporting any tractor. It's amazing to think that, other than my Dad doing a bit of overhaul work on my Cub (wish I knew exactly what was done) maybe 20 years or so ago, other than this recent episode where my brother refaced the valves and did a few other things, I'm betting it was only at a local repair facility 4 times total since I bought it in '81. So one of the big decision points now appears to be....is the tractor basically used up and worn out? If so, putting in a new engine seems foolish. Guys who work with these old Cubs all the time would seem to indicate that it may well have years of use left. A bit like rolling the dice. But then, every day is like that when you get right down to it.
#12
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Unfortunately 60% of the population work by pressing buttons and have no technical skills whatsoever.
So they buy either on brand or price.
Thus he who spends the most on advertising ( snap on is a perfect example ) gets all of the "quality" sales.
He who makes the cheapest mower gets all of the price sales.
That leave 10% of the market for those who know & understand quality & durability.
Now days is is more important to send all of your FARCE book "friends" a photo of your garage with every concievable power tool in it ,and even better is they are all the same colour than it is to have quality tools that will go the distance.
Dad maintained his 1/2 acre with a push mower, a manual edger a pair of hedge shears , a pruning saw & a rake .
Now days you need a hedge trimmer, pole saw, chain saw, powered edge trimmer , weed wacker , tiller , SP mower & ride on.
Now back to your situation.
At your age you are looking at mowing for another 10 to 20, years.
Not many 90 year olds zooming around on ride ons ( I have 2 out of 500 customers ).
So what you need to look at is will you physically be able to drive the Cub in another 10 years time ?
I just sold a 70 year old a used Z225 because he could no longer push the brake on his Cox hard enough to start the engine.
I have done a hand conversion on a YTH2245 because the owners could not bend their foot far enough to reverse the mower.
If you think you will be fit enough then get a commercial grade engine fitted to the Cub .
I get engines from
Small Engine Warehouse
Small Engine Supplies
The Surplus Center
These are all brand new engines that have been remaindered and many are less than 1/2 the retail price.
If you are getting it fitted, the fitter will charge a bit more to cover the fact they have not made a mark up on supplying you the engine.
I charge $ 400 when the customer supplies the engine + consumables
or $ 200 if I supply the engine and keep the old one, consumable free and first service free.
Unfortunately none of us can see into the future and only you know how you are aging so ultimately it is up to you to decide if you will be physically capable of driving either mower & maintaining them.
So they buy either on brand or price.
Thus he who spends the most on advertising ( snap on is a perfect example ) gets all of the "quality" sales.
He who makes the cheapest mower gets all of the price sales.
That leave 10% of the market for those who know & understand quality & durability.
Now days is is more important to send all of your FARCE book "friends" a photo of your garage with every concievable power tool in it ,and even better is they are all the same colour than it is to have quality tools that will go the distance.
Dad maintained his 1/2 acre with a push mower, a manual edger a pair of hedge shears , a pruning saw & a rake .
Now days you need a hedge trimmer, pole saw, chain saw, powered edge trimmer , weed wacker , tiller , SP mower & ride on.
Now back to your situation.
At your age you are looking at mowing for another 10 to 20, years.
Not many 90 year olds zooming around on ride ons ( I have 2 out of 500 customers ).
So what you need to look at is will you physically be able to drive the Cub in another 10 years time ?
I just sold a 70 year old a used Z225 because he could no longer push the brake on his Cox hard enough to start the engine.
I have done a hand conversion on a YTH2245 because the owners could not bend their foot far enough to reverse the mower.
If you think you will be fit enough then get a commercial grade engine fitted to the Cub .
I get engines from
Small Engine Warehouse
Small Engine Supplies
The Surplus Center
These are all brand new engines that have been remaindered and many are less than 1/2 the retail price.
If you are getting it fitted, the fitter will charge a bit more to cover the fact they have not made a mark up on supplying you the engine.
I charge $ 400 when the customer supplies the engine + consumables
or $ 200 if I supply the engine and keep the old one, consumable free and first service free.
Unfortunately none of us can see into the future and only you know how you are aging so ultimately it is up to you to decide if you will be physically capable of driving either mower & maintaining them.
#13
D
DonWantz
D
DonWantz
Three4re,
Sorry I have nothing to offer for your cause, so my comments are only for selfish reasons. In what part of PA do you live? I am also a Pennsylvanian. So, if you decide to purchase "new" I will take your old Cub off of your hands so it's not sitting around for you to trip over..:laughing:
Sorry I have nothing to offer for your cause, so my comments are only for selfish reasons. In what part of PA do you live? I am also a Pennsylvanian. So, if you decide to purchase "new" I will take your old Cub off of your hands so it's not sitting around for you to trip over..:laughing:
#14
T
three4re
Thanks Don. Still not sure which direction I want to go...visited several dealers and looked at new tractors. I had a nice deal going with a guy on the Cub Cadet forum that would have not only built an engine for me but also would have delivered and installed it...AND also has a refurbished deck I could buy...that sort of offer almost seemed too good to pass up but then it fell through. He's just too busy now to be able to work on an engine. I think I would have gone for it.
IF I buy something new, the Cub will go for sale - probably on the CC forum - not even sure what I'd charge for it. I don't want to give it away too cheaply since it really is in pretty good shape compared to some out there that I've seen advertised. So at that point I could certainly let you know about it. Perhaps give me your email address so I don't forget. The Cub would be sold pick-up only. I'm in Berks County, near Reading. Where are you?
T
three4re
Three4re,
Sorry I have nothing to offer for your cause, so my comments are only for selfish reasons. In what part of PA do you live? I am also a Pennsylvanian. So, if you decide to purchase "new" I will take your old Cub off of your hands so it's not sitting around for you to trip over..:laughing:
Thanks Don. Still not sure which direction I want to go...visited several dealers and looked at new tractors. I had a nice deal going with a guy on the Cub Cadet forum that would have not only built an engine for me but also would have delivered and installed it...AND also has a refurbished deck I could buy...that sort of offer almost seemed too good to pass up but then it fell through. He's just too busy now to be able to work on an engine. I think I would have gone for it.
IF I buy something new, the Cub will go for sale - probably on the CC forum - not even sure what I'd charge for it. I don't want to give it away too cheaply since it really is in pretty good shape compared to some out there that I've seen advertised. So at that point I could certainly let you know about it. Perhaps give me your email address so I don't forget. The Cub would be sold pick-up only. I'm in Berks County, near Reading. Where are you?