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Ferris H2222K Hydro trans.

Jan 2, 2017#1

Rob47

Greetings Ferris Fans, I bought this mower used from a non-profit organization I used to work for. My first repair I did to it was to weld up the crack in the oil tank that had a slow leak. This leaves me to believe the transmission had been run low on oil in its previous life.
For all the time I have used the mower, it has made noise going forward whereas in reverse it does not make noise. This condition has not changed. At a contract job I have mowing, there are some slight hills where the engine has enough power but the trans acts like it is slipping. So far I have lived with it. Now, with the grass cutting season being at a standstill I am doing a lot of maintenance and repairs that will be called long-term fixes, meaning I am not looking to do band-aid repairs. I would like to know if any members have overhauled the hydro unit, if so where they got parts and advice of what to look for. In my former employment at the non-profit I pulled the top plate off to replace the shaft seal under the cooling fan and also one of the side seals. I did not go deeper into it at the time but am ready to do that now IF I could obtain guidance and a parts source. Last year there was some concern about what oil to use in the hydro, one mower shop mechanic said to use 20-50 wt. though that is not listed on the decal. I went ahead and used that weight oil last year. He told me that in some of them, noise was not a cause for alarm, so I did not pursue it at the time.
Since I have spent my adult life in auto repair - last 21 years in Honda cars - and fixing a lot of other mechanical stuff, I feel I have the skills to do this job unless there are specialty tools needed.
I am anxious to hear from you fellows in the forum... by the way; I did not go further into the trans at that time because I had no idea how this thing worked by looking at the moveable plate.
Rob H2222K Serial #7163

Jan 2, 2017#2

B

bertsmobile1

:welcome:

Only if you can tell me where to get parts for my motorcycle

On a serious note, if you have been in the auto trade for years I should not have to tell you about, , , , , , , ,
MAKE, MODEL NUMBER and Year.

Apart from seals which are std items the most common form of failure is scoring between one of the piston blocks and the base as there is no seal
Less common is wear between the pistons & block, again there is no seal.
A customer did take his to work & got the block & base lapped together but they need to be flat to 0.0001"
Some parts are available some are not as a lot of makers have gone out of business.
The other thing to remember is if there is no filler & drain your unit was made in a clean room and it intollerant to the tiniest amounts of the finest dust.
Ones with external oil filters and top up plugs are designed to tolerate much higher levels of crud in the oil.

They are all the same, close fitting pistons that run on a face cam on end in a cylinder with cross drilled holes so the piston both pumps & is the valve.
The other end of the cylinder hole goes over a plate with holes in it which controls the direction of the oil flow.
There is no seal between the two so wear eventually causes them to leak pressure thus you go nowhere.

Jan 2, 2017#3

reynoldston

Jan 5, 2017#4

Rob47

The transmission on mine has always made noise from day one, but it never slips. With nothing to compare it with, I always took this noise as normal seeing I bough it new. Also I don't know how much noise yours is making?

Thanks for answering my post. My unit whines, not a sound I would equate with internal mechanical parts fighting with each other. It also does not want to go up-hill - meaning a gradual slope nothing too steep. I have run 20-50 multi grade motor oil in it by the recommendation of a mower mechanic who knew about the Ferris hydro. Mine is about a 1995-6 model year as best as I can tell.
Rob

Jan 5, 2017#5

Rob47

Bert, Tell me the make of your cycle.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for what you are telling me here about the hydro unit. Would you be able to take one of those photos I posted and put some pointers and arrows to the parts you are naming ? From the depth I was in this before when I replaced the top seal, can I get to the parts you are talking about ? I have access to a surface plate at a friends shop that I could use >>> putting some 600 wet/dry sand paper (finish with 1000 grit) on and lap the two parts in order to create a better fit. However, if this is a futile exercise I won't bother digging into it and just choose to use it as it is. [my initial hope was to look inside the unit and see obvious galling or wear marks that could be fixed either with lapping or new parts. ]
This time around I am going after all the bearings and bushings in an attempt to remove all the unnecessary noise from the machine, and the trans is part of that effort.

The PTO clutch assembly I took apart and installed new bearings in it.
This unit does have an oil filter that was changed last year.
I am running 20-50wt engine oil not tractor hydraulic fluid. Is that any concern ?
This unit does not have an ID tag on it. Just a number stamped in the bottom of the casting. Would I need to take the side cover plates off the hydro unit in order to get into the area where critical clearances are located?

Only if you can tell me where to get parts for my motorcycle

On a serious note, if you have been in the auto trade for years I should not have to tell you about, , , , , , , ,
MAKE, MODEL NUMBER and Year.

Apart from seals which are std items the most common form of failure is scoring between one of the piston blocks and the base as there is no seal
Less common is wear between the pistons & block, again there is no seal.
A customer did take his to work & got the block & base lapped together but they need to be flat to 0.0001"
Some parts are available some are not as a lot of makers have gone out of business.
The other thing to remember is if there is no filler & drain your unit was made in a clean room and it intollerant to the tiniest amounts of the finest dust.
Ones with external oil filters and top up plugs are designed to tolerate much higher levels of crud in the oil.

They are all the same, close fitting pistons that run on a face cam on end in a cylinder with cross drilled holes so the piston both pumps & is the valve.
The other end of the cylinder hole goes over a plate with holes in it which controls the direction of the oil flow.
There is no seal between the two so wear eventually causes them to leak pressure thus you go nowhere.[/QUOTE]

Jan 5, 2017#6

reynoldston

Rob47 said:
The transmission on mine has always made noise from day one, but it never slips. With nothing to compare it with, I always took this noise as normal seeing I bough it new. Also I don't know how much noise yours is making?

Thanks for answering my post. My unit whines, not a sound I would equate with internal mechanical parts fighting with each other. It also does not want to go up-hill - meaning a gradual slope nothing too steep. I have run 20-50 multi grade motor oil in it by the recommendation of a mower mechanic who knew about the Ferris hydro. M ine is about a 1995-6 model year as best as I can tell.
Rob

Yes that is how I would describe the noise mine makes, it whines. Bought mine new in 2000 and the noise stays the same as it always has so I just thought it was a normal noise. But mines doesn't slip and the wheels will spin if the hill is too steep forward or reverse. I just rise the deck a little and it will go up a steep hill without any problems seeing it puts all the weight on the drive tires. I never had one apart so I can't help there. Yes it dose sound like you have something wrong. To replace that mower with the same model now is over 10,000 dollars so its will worth fixing. Hope you the best of luck with your repairs:thumbsup:

Jan 6, 2017#7

B

bertsmobile1

No photo editing on this computer.
This is the internet computer so has only internet specific applications on it .

The round thing on the input shaft is the pump block and the things that go between it and the ring that moves left right are the pumping pistons.
They should lift out as a unit.
Be careful as each piston has a spring behind it and some are quite strong so will go flying across the shop & down the hole that leads to the parallel universe where all the unavailabe bits seem to go.
When removed you will see holes underneath where the oil flows.
I have not pulled down the particular pump you are looking at but once apart it will be obvious.
Your pump should only flow in one direction as the motors have to be able to move in opposite directions so the direction of rotation control will be on the motors.
The finish on the underside is a lot finer than 600 grit and is genrally polished with diamond paste to a mirror finish.
2000 grit would be the coarest you could use as the pump only moves a tiny amount of oil at quite high pressure.
Again it will be obvious when you are looking at the guts, not the hat.

Jan 6, 2017#8

Rob47

No photo editing on this computer.

Bert, Let me work over a photo with arrows and colors and send it back in hopes of determining which pieces you are calling what. This way you can make a comment as it relates to the particular arrow or colored line in the photo.
Rob

Jan 6, 2017#9

Rob47

Yes that is how I would describe the noise mine makes, it whines. Bought mine new in 2000 and the noise stays the same as it always has so I just thought it was a normal noise.

Thanks for letting me know yours makes noise too. I am thinking of at least looking inside before I put it back together. Pulling this thing out and apart is something I don't want to make a career out of !

Jan 7, 2017#10

Rob47

Perhaps you could tell me more in regards to the arrows in the photo - what they are called and what they do. Today I am going to pull the cover off and look for wear or something that would cause the noise in the unit and the lack of power to go up-hill - small grade in my opinion.
The two stars are covering an area I have not yet been into. Is there a gear set in there or a planetary type gear set in there under those two stars ?
I do appreciate your help in this. It seems this unit is black magic otherwise there would be more who jump in this conversation. :<)
Rob
Where are the springs you speak of ?

Jan 7, 2017#11

reynoldston

As I said I never got into one or seen one apart even when I worked for a Ferris dealer for several month. If I had one to repair in my shop the very first thing I would do is invest in a repair manual and parts manual at any cost. Berts can be a very fine talker with some very good story's??? I hope he can help you for your sake.
(I have not pulled down the particular pump you are looking at but once apart it will be obvious.) That is in berts own words. I did have one of the drive motor that leaked oil come into my shop several years ago in which I took the motor to a hydraulic shop and had repaired. The newer Pro 60's have gone to a whole different hydraulic system.

Jan 7, 2017#12

Rob47

Bert, Here is another photo with my attempt to identify the various parts. This is the deepest I have gone in the unit and I do not see anything so far that would cause a loss of power or whining in forward. From here I assume the oil is under pressure and goes into the wheel drive area marked with the stars in my earlier photos. I would already be in them but the pillow block axle bearing on one side will not budge even after liberal application of a special lubricant. I look forward from hearing from you and others. Rob

When removed you will see holes underneath where the oil flows.
I have not pulled down the particular pump you are looking at but once apart it will be obvious.
Your pump should only flow in one direction as the motors have to be able to move in opposite directions so the direction of rotation control will be on the motors.
The finish on the underside is a lot finer than 600 grit and is genrally polished with diamond paste to a mirror finish.
2000 grit would be the coarest you could use as the pump only moves a tiny amount of oil at quite high pressure.
Again it will be obvious when you are looking at the guts, not the hat

Jan 7, 2017#13

Rob47

Thank you again for coming back to the conversation. No Where have I seen a blow-up showing the internals of the hydro unit nor a shop manual on this hydro-drive. I would surely like to have one as this is a somewhat blind adventure on my part. [fools rush in where angels fear to tread] I have posted more photos if you are interested. I paid $350 for this machine knowing it would need an engine before long. It did, and rather than take it apart and tie up the machine for a long time, I chose to buy a good used motor and transferred the carb, governor mechanism, and exhaust muffler. I believe there is a spark ****** circuit that is not hooked up right because the newer engine had a different wiring harness than the older Kohler 22HP. Good to hear the newer machines have a different hydro unit.

Jan 8, 2017#14

reynoldston

Rob47 said:
Thank you again for coming back to the conversation. No Where have I seen a blow-up showing the internals of the hydro unit nor a shop manual on this hydro-drive. I would surely like to have one as this is a somewhat blind adventure on my part. [fools rush in where angels fear to tread] I have posted more photos if you are interested. I paid $350 for this machine knowing it would need an engine before long. It did, and rather than take it apart and tie up the machine for a long time, I chose to buy a good used motor and transferred the carb, governor mechanism, and exhaust muffler. I believe there is a spark ****** circuit that is not hooked up right because the newer engine had a different wiring harness than the older Kohler 22HP. Good to hear the newer machines have a different hydro unit.

I am sure Ferris didn't make the hydro system. Maybe find out who made it and get information from them? The Kohler came with what they called Smart-Spark ignition system is what I think you are calling spark ****** circuit. This Smart-Spark system was built internally in the engine itself and would nothing to do with the external wiring to the chassis. The only wiring that may be different would be to the charging and starter systems. The only wire to the ignition system is the wire to ground out the coils in which go's to the ignition switch.. The Kohler electrical systems I have worked on in my shop and in more then in just the brand of Ferris mowers.

Jan 8, 2017#15

B

bertsmobile1

Looking at your photos you will see wear grooves between the intake & discharge ports.
This plate has to seal against the rotor, however there is no seal there.
Thus it requires that the plate and the rotor are mirror finish smooth & flat.
If that is not the case the pump can not pump.
Yours looks rather like an Eaton 751.
Ferris do not make pumps , gearboxes or transaxles they are all bought in.

Eaton have all their manuals as an free download on line otherwise I can send you the 751 I got a while back to do a job.

Jan 8, 2017#16

reynoldston

bertsmobile1 said:
Looking at your photos you will see wear grooves between the intake & discharge ports.
This plate has to seal against the rotor, however there is no seal there.
Thus it requires that the plate and the rotor are mirror finish smooth & flat.
If that is not the case the pump can not pump.
Yours looks rather like an Eaton 751.
Ferris do not make pumps , gearboxes or transaxles they are all bought in.

Eaton have all their manuals as an free download on line otherwise I can send you the 751 I got a while back to do a job.[/QUOTE

This gives you a good start. :thumbsup:

Jan 9, 2017#17

Rob47

Re: Ferris H2222K Hydro trans. EATON

Ahh, at last a diagram of what I am working on !
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1620.pdf

Thank you both for staying with me on this. As I look at this diagram could the friction material on the reaction plate be worn to where the hill climbing ability has been lost ? Is the whining coming from the GeRotor pump area or someplace else?
The next step is to get in touch with Eaton to see if I can still obtain parts before I take apart the axle drive assembly.

I just found this from Eaton - parts schematic of the 751 >> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1621.pdf

Jan 9, 2017#18

Rob47

Bert, If the casting is scored as you say from looking in the photos, does this mean I am wasting my time trying to fix this hydro unit ?
If,, I could buy new GeRotor parts and housing, that still lives the aluminum casting scored, so this is a concern.

Looking at your photos you will see wear grooves between the intake & discharge ports.
This plate has to seal against the rotor, however there is no seal there.
Thus it requires that the plate and the rotor are mirror finish smooth & flat.
If that is not the case the pump can not pump.

Jan 9, 2017#19

Rob47

Is it possible the drive belt tension was loose ?

The transmission on mine has always made noise from day one, but it never slips. With nothing to compare it with, I always took this noise as normal seeing I bough it new.

Jan 9, 2017#20

reynoldston

Yes for sure the drive belt can slip. Good thing to check. Yes mine has always made a lot of noise from day one to the point I always wear ear muffs when using it. You sure got that mower at a good price seeing I paid over 8000 dollars when I bought mine new in year 2000. A couple of years back I was at a show and I priced a new Pro 60 and it was over 10,000 dollars.

Jan 9, 2017#21

B

bertsmobile1

You are already beyond my level of experience so I would just be guessing.
Eaton engrave serial numbers on their trans and usually rivet a plate as well.
Even though it is a cheap mower unit Eaton were very good to me.
Sending an IPL + a service manual which looks the same as what you have posted

measure and photograph it clearly ( use a stand of some sort) & drop them a line.
I am not sure how much scoring is permissible in these units.
Generally with others I have worked on, If you can feel the scoring with your thumb nail, it was considered US.
However none of them had a charge pump and I have no idea if the bleed by would be significant or not.

Jan 10, 2017#22

Rob47

This Eaton 751 had stamped numbers in the bottom of it; 851-113 CW 112796 the last number being the date code Nov. 27,1996
Having exhausted the internet searching, it seems I will put this back together, installing 20-50 motor oil and use it the way it is >> noise and weak on the hills.
I was thinking of using an oil additive like Lucas Oil treatment as a viscosity improvement. Any thoughts for or against ?

I have posted on the Ferris forum another thread for parts for this Eaton unit. If nothing comes from it I will put the unit back in the mower. The small contract work I have for it will not really start again until March so I have some time yet. However, I like to finish this up and get it off the bench.

I did contact Eaton - they don't carry any parts - they dropped them in 2011.
I appreciate your input - both of you. Rob

Jan 10, 2017#23

B

bertsmobile1

Don't use Lucas.
You can go to heavier oil 30w 50/ 30W 60 etc.
Using a heavier base oil is a lot better than trying to thicken up a light base oil.
If it looks like the friction plates are excessively worn, most clutch & brake relining factories should be able to replace the friction material.
If those wear groves are bleeding off pressure you can get them refaced but it won't be cheap.

Jan 13, 2017#24

Rob47

bertsmobile1 said:
Don't use Lucas.
You can go to heavier oil 30w 50/ 30W 60 etc.
Using a heavier base oil is a lot better than trying to thicken up a light base oil.
If it looks like the friction plates are excessively worn, most clutch & brake relining factories should be able to replace the friction material.
If those wear groves are bleeding off pressure you can get them refaced but it won't be cheap.

After taking the unit apart and looking for obvious worn parts in addition to not getting any material leads on the GeRotor pump nor the two clutch discs, I am going to put it back together and live with the noise and hill climbing weakness. Inside the axle hubs, where the the reactor plate is located, I don't see enough wear on that plate to condemn its functionality. There is a little bit of scoring in the casting under the GeRotor pump assembly but that cannot be remedied without a new hydro-static transmission. Eaton closed the parts supply chain for the 751 series in 2011.
I am replacing one of the outboard bearings and seal on the right side (short) axle shaft. With that, and new 20-50wt. oil, I will conclude this endeavor of fixing the Hydro unit.
Thanks for the advice. Rob

I just discovered something that I believe is significant in this trans-axle. The ball pump rotor does not have springs behind the 5 balls.
Photos included >>

Jan 16, 2017#25

Rob47

Re: Ferris H2222K Hydro trans. Test run on Bench

In case anyone is still watching this thread, and that "anyone" has tried to bench test the unit before putting it back into the mower, I would like to hear from them.
I have filled the trans with 20-50 oil and purged the air out of it as best I can.
Using an electric drill with an allen wrench in the chuck, I am spinning the pump drive at speed and was hoping to see the axles begin to turn. So far, no movement from the axles while shifting the control lever from forward to reverse. It could be that I am NOT spinning it fast enough.
I am open for suggestions. It is true I am not spinning it as fast and furious as the engine would.
Rob

Jan 17, 2017#26

BlazNT

Speed at witch you turn it has nothing to do with movement except for speed that it turns the axle. When I changed the fluid in my drives I could turn input shaft by hand and have movement in output shaft. So something is not right.

Jan 17, 2017#27

Rob47

Re: Ferris H2222K Hydro trans. Test run on Bench

Blaz,
Thank you for your input on this matter. When you did this fluid change was the unit still in the mower or on the bench? Was it the Eaton 751 series ?
This unit was completely void of oil when I put it back together, so it makes me wonder if there is still trapped air in the system and my bench testing is not verifiable due to inadequate purge. I took special care in putting it back together and can [visually] recount each of the assembly steps in doing so. I can "feel" the loading of the pump when I spin it with the drill motor so I know there is something going on inside with the GeRotor pump assembly. I have not seen a cut-a-way drawing of the Eaton casting to see where the passages go, but do not believe anything in that realm has been affected by me taking the unit apart.
The Pump Rotor Ball (#11 in schematic) dos not have springs behind the balls like the other two located in the axles. One schematic showed it did but this is the PDF that comes from Eaton printed in 1999. As I look at the these parts I have no idea why the Cam Ring (#12) causes the unit to reverse and also control the speed. I have not removed Motor Rotor/ball #28 on either side but see there is a friction pad #29 located behind it. Because is says "friction" it makes me wonder if there is wear in that part.

I appreciate any and all information I can attain from those who will contribute to this. Rob

Aug 20, 2017#28

T

thespyderbyte

Rob47 said:
After taking the unit apart and looking for obvious worn parts in addition to not getting any material leads on the GeRotor pump nor the two clutch discs, I am going to put it back together and live with the noise and hill climbing weakness. Inside the axle hubs, where the the reactor plate is located, I don't see enough wear on that plate to condemn its functionality. There is a little bit of scoring in the casting under the GeRotor pump assembly but that cannot be remedied without a new hydro-static transmission. Eaton closed the parts supply chain for the 751 series in 2011.
I am replacing one of the outboard bearings and seal on the right side (short) axle shaft. With that, and new 20-50wt. oil, I will conclude this endeavor of fixing the Hydro unit.
Thanks for the advice. Rob

I just discovered something that I believe is significant in this trans-axle. The ball pump rotor does not have springs behind the 5 balls.
Photos included >>

I have the same mower, #6976, and have a leak from the hydro transmission under the unit. After looking under would say it's the hose line, all wet, use a drip pan when not running. Mower runs great as old as it is and would rather use it then the eXmark I have. The hydro oil rang a bell due to I have used just about anything from tractor supply to fill it. Also did use Lucas in it but seems it didn't do any damage but will switch to the 20w-50 hydro oil. Will look at the 30w-50 and 30w-60 too. Interested in knowing what kind of hydro filter you intend to use when running. Love the work you have put online, hope mine doesn't end up here. Engine runs too good to give it up yet!

Sep 22, 2017#29

Rob47

Yours looks rather like an Eaton 751.
Ferris do not make pumps , gearboxes or trans-axles they are all bought in.
Eaton have all their manuals as an free download on line otherwise I can send you the 751 I got a while back to do a job.
This gives you a good start. :thumbsup:

Yes, mine is a 751. Since I last posted here I did contact Eaton and found out they no longer service any parts for the 751. I did tighten the drive belt to the hydro and the hill climbing has improved at least at the place I am currently using the mower. Not sure if it will climb my own back yard hill yet. This winter when I do some maintenance on it I will see how it does. I recently bought the internal gears and clutching mechanism for the linear actuator (ball screw) that raises the deck. While I was away this summer I had a friend fill in for me and unwittingly let the actuator run too long and burned up the clutch mechanism. If others need to find that supplier; https://www.thomsonlinear.com/website/com/eng/support/global_customer_service_distributor.php

Additionally, if there are any readers who land here and know of a person who has NOS parts for the Eaton 751 I would like to get in touch with them.
Rob

Sep 22, 2017#30

Rob47

Be careful as each piston has a spring behind it and some are quite strong so will go flying across the shop & down the hole that leads to the parallel universe where all the unavailable bits seem to go.
When removed you will see holes underneath where the oil flows.

I have come back to the forum and re-read most of the dialogue about the hydro unit I had apart. You mention a spring behind each ball, the schematic of the Eaton 751 also shows that spring but mine did not have it. It makes me wonder how important the spring is to the proper function of the pump. For all I know someone had this unit apart years before I got it and left them out for whatever reason. Since the pump unit is spinning around, would not centrifugal force throw the balls out against the ring plate anyway?
Can you comment about this ?
Rob

Sep 22, 2017#31

B

bertsmobile1

No idea about the springs in the pump unit but as it is spinning quite fast centrifugal force should force the balls out and I expect the cam pushes the balls in creating the pumping effect.
If you have not lapped the plates then I doubt the tranny will work.
The volume of oil pumped is very very small so given the chance of passing between the two oil galleries via the scoring or driving the wheel motors, the oil will follow the path of least resistance.
Now it could be nothing more than at those speeds all the oil passes through the scoring and when spinning faster, enough oil passes through the engines to get them to work.

Sep 23, 2017#32

Rob47

bertsmobile1 said:
No idea about the springs in the pump unit but as it is spinning quite fast centrifugal force should force the balls out and I expect the cam pushes the balls in creating the pumping effect.
If you have not lapped the plates then I doubt the tranny will work.
The volume of oil pumped is very very small so given the chance of passing between the two oil galleries via the scoring or driving the wheel motors, the oil will follow the path of least resistance.
Now it could be nothing more than at those speeds all the oil passes through the scoring and when spinning faster, enough oil passes through the engines to get them to work.

I do not follow the hydraulic fluid path in this system. The G-rotor pump is what makes the pressure to drive the transmission - it seems to me - because that is the only thing that looks like a oil pump. Where it goes from there and how variable speed forward and reverse is accomplished is beyond me. When you speak of scoring, I don't see it nor do I understand where you are looking. The mower is working fine now, but why it makes a whining noise going forward and not in reverse is troublesome. It would seem something is not "happy" inside the hydro unit and if I knew where it was I would fix it.

Sep 23, 2017#33

B

bertsmobile1

Sep 24, 2017#34

Rob47

In your last photo you can see the slots for the oil flow and the wear between the slots,
The oil that the G rotor pump is pumping is passing along the grooves rather than going to the motor.
Like anything under pressure the oil will take the path of least resistance so on level ground 90% might go through the motor and 10% goes through the wear grooves.
Going up hill the motors are a higher load than the wear grooves so 90% of the oil now escapes along the grooves between the intake & discharge ports or strait out under the sides leaving you with 10% to power the motors.
The groaning you can hear is the sound the oil makes as it escapes from places where it was not supposed to.[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to Post #28 ? I have posted several photos and want to find what slots and grooves you are speaking of. When I looked at the mating surfaces of the G-rotor pump I did not see scoring that a fingernail would catch on. If you tell which post and photo you are looking at, I can send you that photo and then you can use the Windows default program "Paint" to put an arrow at the place of concern.
When you use the term "motor" is the the round hub that has the steel ball bearings in it ?

Additionally, If the whining is created by escaping oil pressure, why is there no noise in reverse ?
It still loads the pump and motors the same, would it not ?

Sep 24, 2017#35

B

bertsmobile1

Rob47 said:
In your last photo you can see the slots for the oil flow and the wear between the slots,
The oil that the G rotor pump is pumping is passing along the grooves rather than going to the motor.
Like anything under pressure the oil will take the path of least resistance so on level ground 90% might go through the motor and 10% goes through the wear grooves.
Going up hill the motors are a higher load than the wear grooves so 90% of the oil now escapes along the grooves between the intake & discharge ports or strait out under the sides leaving you with 10% to power the motors.
The groaning you can hear is the sound the oil makes as it escapes from places where it was not supposed to.

Are you referring to Post #28 ? I have posted several photos and want to find what slots and grooves you are speaking of. When I looked at the mating surfaces of the G-rotor pump I did not see scoring that a fingernail would catch on. If you tell which post and photo you are looking at, I can send you that photo and then you can use the Windows default program "Paint" to put an arrow at the place of concern.
When you use the term "motor" is the the round hub that has the steel ball bearings in it ?

Additionally, If the whining is created by escaping oil pressure, why is there no noise in reverse ?
It still loads the pump and motors the same, would it not ?[/QUOTE]

in post 12 you have labeled it intake & discharge ports in white text
In the photo under the labled one the wear patterns are clearly visible.
When new that plate had a flat mirror finish.

Sep 24, 2017#36

Rob47

in post 12 you have labeled it intake & discharge ports in white text
In the photo under the labled one the wear patterns are clearly visible.
When new that plate had a flat mirror finish.[/QUOTE]

So the scoring you are speaking of in the enclosed photo with arrows is where you suspect the oil pressure is being lost from the G-rotor pump. This surface is integral with the whole hydro unit casting, and that would indicate that if this is indeed the problem, there is no fix for removing that scoring without taking a .002-.003" cut off that surface to make it completely flat again. This would be a delicate machining operation to say the least. Since this Eaton unit is no longer available, I will live with it unless I could find a similar hydo unit that would adapt into this mower deck with some modifications. Eaton is still in business but don't know what they have that is a newer design that would be adaptable.

Sep 24, 2017#37

Rob47

in post 12 you have labeled it intake & discharge ports in white text
In the photo under the labled one the wear patterns are clearly visible.
When new that plate had a flat mirror finish.

So the scoring you are speaking of in the enclosed photo with arrows is where you suspect the oil pressure is being lost from the G-rotor pump. This surface is integral with the whole hydro unit casting, and that would indicate that if this is indeed the problem, there is no fix for removing that scoring without taking a .002-.003" cut off that surface to make it completely flat again. This would be a delicate machining operation to say the least. Since this Eaton unit is no longer available, I will live with it unless I could find a similar hydo unit that would adapt into this mower deck with some modifications. Eaton is still in business but don't know what they have that is a newer design that would be adaptable.
By the way, this "scoring" you have identified does not catch my fingernail as I drag it across the surface, this is why I have not given it a lot of attention.

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Sep 25, 2017#38

B

bertsmobile1

Yep that is the place.
You might get away with some 1000 or 2000 wet & dry stuck to a ring that will go over the input shaft then lapping carefully.

The plate that the pump sits in moves the pump so that the output is increased or reduced and the flow between those two slots is either foreward or reversed.
The motors will also have oil feed & drain holes in them and work in either direction depending upon which way the oil is flowing.
Hydro boxes are easy & convienant but have a very limited number of working hours.
Mr Fords most valuable invention, planned redundency strikes again.

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Ferris H2222K Hydro trans.

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