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A friend was mine told me the other day that super unleaded had less ethanol in it than regular. This is something I'd never even thought about. But when I stopped at the gas station later that day, I noticed the ethanol sign (10% or less ethanol) was the only thing mentioned on the pump. In other words, it didn't say "10% for regular, less for premium and even less for super. There was just the one sign that covered all three.
So I came home and did a little research. (and I mean a very little) but couldn't find anything.

So today, I found a gas tanker unloading at the little store down the road. I stopped and asked him. He said that all three have the same amount of ethanol in them. That 10% (ish) is the government standard. Different companies have different blends and additives. But they all have at least 10% ethanol.

BTW, how much are you guys paying for non-ethanol gas?

hrdman2luv said:

BTW, how much are you guys paying for non-ethanol gas?

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To the best of my knowledge non-ethanol is not available in my area anymore.

SeniorCitizen said:

To the best of my knowledge non-ethanol is not available in my area anymore.

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anywhere near Stillwater, google shows a few places near by

mowerman05 said:

anywhere near Stillwater, google shows a few places near by

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The majority of those places are so far outdated with their up-dates I don't have time to screw around with them anymore.

I'm closer to Enid.

hrdman2luv said:

A friend was mine told me the other day that super unleaded had less ethanol in it than regular. This is something I'd never even thought about. But when I stopped at the gas station later that day, I noticed the ethanol sign (10% or less ethanol) was the only thing mentioned on the pump. In other words, it didn't say "10% for regular, less for premium and even less for super. There was just the one sign that covered all three.
So I came home and did a little research. (and I mean a very little) but couldn't find anything.

So today, I found a gas tanker unloading at the little store down the road. I stopped and asked him. He said that all three have the same amount of ethanol in them. That 10% (ish) is the government standard. Different companies have different blends and additives. But they all have at least 10% ethanol.

BTW, how much are you guys paying for non-ethanol gas?

Click to expand...

10% ethanol gas, referred to as E10 is an EPA standard. (Hopefully this doesn't lead to an EPA debate.) It means the gasoline contains approximately but no more than 10% ethanol and 90% or more gasoline. Approx. 97% of the gasoline sold in the USA is E10. E10 is available for all octanes. Interestingly, ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline so an 87 octane blend is actually created with less than 87 octane gasoline and over 87 octane ethanol.

Non-ethanol gasoline is sold in some gas stations but is available primarily in gallon or smaller sizes.

Fresh E10 is not harmful to fairly new vehicles and small engines but can be harmful to older ones. The biggest potential problem with ethanol is in small engines like lawn mowers that aren't used frequently. Over time, the ethanol separates from the gasoline in a process called phase separation. Phase separation can cause major damage to a small engine particularly during or after storage, which is why best practices exist.

I'm in farming country, so 100% NON-corn gas is readily available. That's all I will use.

Price is currently @ $2.03 gal for 87, & $2.43 for 93 octane NON -corn blend.

TonyPrin said:

10% ethanol gas, referred to as E10 is an EPA standard. (Hopefully this doesn't lead to an EPA debate.) It means the gasoline contains approximately but no more than 10% ethanol and 90% or more gasoline. Approx. 97% of the gasoline sold in the USA is E10. E10 is available for all octanes. Interestingly, ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline so an 87 octane blend is actually created with less than 87 octane gasoline and over 87 octane ethanol.

Non-ethanol gasoline is sold in some gas stations but is available primarily in gallon or smaller sizes.

Fresh E10 is not harmful to fairly new vehicles and small engines but can be harmful to older ones. The biggest potential problem with ethanol is in small engines like lawn mowers that aren't used frequently. Over time, the ethanol separates from the gasoline in a process called phase separation. Phase separation can cause major damage to a small engine particularly during or after storage, which is why best practices exist.

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Here is another person writing published articles that is confusing Octane with BTU.

http://zfacts.com/p/436.html

SeniorCitizen said:

Here is another person writing published articles that is confusing Octane with BTU.

http://zfacts.com/p/436.html

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There is nothing I said that is either incorrect or taken from an article. Those are my words and I don't like the insinuation that I can't contribute something without assistance. Senior Citizen, you didn't add anything to the discussion beyond copying a link yourself and trying to insult me. Pretty small. Either prove what you said or apologize for insinuating I plagiarized.

Beyond that, my comments were correct and referred to octane, not BTUs. Rather, octane refers to the compression a fuel can withstand before it ignites while BTU relates to heat. BTUs have nothing to do with the discussion except to confuse easily confusable people like Senior Citizen.

Ethanol has a USA/Canada octane rating of 99, compared to a typical regular gasoline octane of 87. Thus, assuming 10% ethanol in a gallon of regular, the remaining .9 gallon gasoline would have an octane rating of only 85, for a weighted average of 87 - which is what I said:

Interestingly, ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline so an 87 octane blend is actually created with less than 87 octane gasoline and over 87 octane ethanol.

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Of course gasoline is manmade from refined petroleum so it can have a range of octanes and anyone who ever bought gas at a pump knows that. However, my comments related to "regular" 87 octane gas as we're discussing lawn mowers.

Finally, I challenge Senior Citizen or anyone else to find where I copied my words from anywhere, which isn't possible because I didn't, or for anyone to disprove anything I said, because you can't.

I'm paying $27.50 for non-ethanol 50:1 premix in 1 gallon cans from my equipment dealer. I started out just using it in my chain saws but am now using it in all of my seldom-used handheld equipment, which I have quite a lot of. I burn 93 octane E10 in everything else.

Give this site a look see for non-ethanol gas... www.pure-gas.org

Bill

Non-ethanol gas in not available at the pump at all in some areas by law. It has to do with air pollution "non-attainment" zones.

Darryl G said:

Non-ethanol gas in not available at the pump at all in some areas by law. It has to do with air pollution "non-attainment" zones.

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I'm lucky. There's a feed store close to me that has non ethanol fuel. You can sure tell the difference in the color of it.

hrdman2luv said:

I'm lucky. There's a feed store close to me that has non ethanol fuel. You can sure tell the difference in the color of it.

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Or by it's nasty smell. Ethanol is a contaminant of gasoline and if it weren't for the Big Corn lobby and government subsidy, the market would have dried up for ethanol gas long ago.

As if it wasn't bad enough already, the bought-and-paid-for politicians are considering upping the content to 15%.

cpurvis said:

Or by it's nasty smell. Ethanol is a contaminant of gasoline and if it weren't for the Big Corn lobby and government subsidy, the market would have dried up for ethanol gas long ago.

As if it wasn't bad enough already, the bought-and-paid-for politicians are considering upping the content to 15%.

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I'm not a proponent of ethanol blended gasoline, but want accuracy on the issue. There is no such thing today as a government subsidy related to ethanol. There had been a subsidy but it ended 6 years ago. Of course there are requirements under the Renewable Fuels Standard that result in ethanol blended gasoline which benefit corn growers by creating a market that wouldn't otherwise exist but that's not a subsidy.

Beyond that, it's important to note that ethanol and gasoline are comparable in price today so the cost of gasoline (mostly taxes, anyway) would be about the same with or without ethanol. The real cost of ethanol, though, is that it has substantially less energy content so we have to burn more of it per gallon than straight gasoline.

Excellent post, Tony. That's some good info.

TonyPrin said:

I'm not a proponent of ethanol blended gasoline, but want accuracy on the issue. There is no such thing today as a government subsidy related to ethanol. There had been a subsidy but it ended 6 years ago. Of course there are requirements under the Renewable Fuels Standard that result in ethanol blended gasoline which benefit corn growers by creating a market that wouldn't otherwise exist but that's not a subsidy.

Beyond that, it's important to note that ethanol and gasoline are comparable in price today so the cost of gasoline (mostly taxes, anyway) would be about the same with or without ethanol. The real cost of ethanol, though, is that it has substantially less energy content so we have to burn more of it per gallon than straight gasoline.

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Then explain to me why pure gasoline is typically 30 cents per gallon more expensive than ethanol gas.

cpurvis said:

Then explain to me why pure gasoline is typically 30 cents per gallon more expensive than ethanol gas.

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You're absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing out my error. I should have said cost rather than price. Clearly non-blended gasoline is more expensive but that's not because of production cost. Of course gasoline is a petroleum product that fluctuates with the value of oil so it's likely for gasoline to become substantially more expensive than ethanol if the $/barrel price increases.

One more point, when comparing ethanol and gasoline, it's important to compare the correct products. Keep in mind that ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline. 87 octane blended gasoline contains only 84 octane straight gasoline plus ethanol. Thus, 87 octane straight gasoline is inherently more costly because of additives needed to get the gasoline to 87 octane without ethanol. Of course virtually all gasoline found at retail contains additives so it's very difficult to actually find straight gasoline.

The primary reason for the use of ethanol is to replace Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) as an additive in gasoline due to environmental problems with it. MTBE replaced Tetraethyl Lead, also due to environmental problems. The soils along many roadsides are still contaminated by lead from the use of Tetraethyl Lead and a lot of groundwater is still contaminated with MTBE. It is very soluble and mobile in groundwater (compared to other gasoline components). In comparison, ethanol is much less toxic...I deliberately consumed some after work this evening and it made me feel good

TonyPrin said:

10% ethanol gas, referred to as E10 is an EPA standard. (Hopefully this doesn't lead to an EPA debate.) It means the gasoline contains approximately but no more than 10% ethanol and 90% or more gasoline. Approx. 97% of the gasoline sold in the USA is E10. E10 is available for all octanes. Interestingly, ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline so an 87 octane blend is actually created with less than 87 octane gasoline and over 87 octane ethanol.

Non-ethanol gasoline is sold in some gas stations but is available primarily in gallon or smaller sizes.

Fresh E10 is not harmful to fairly new vehicles and small engines but can be harmful to older ones. The biggest potential problem with ethanol is in small engines like lawn mowers that aren't used frequently. Over time, the ethanol separates from the gasoline in a process called phase separation. Phase separation can cause major damage to a small engine particularly during or after storage, which is why best practices exist.

Click to expand...

I buy non ethanol gas for my mowers.

The reason I buy non ethanol is because I'd always heard alcohol will absorb moisture in the air/tank and that's what causes phase separation. Not so much the the ethanol itself separates from the gasoline but when moisture is introduced to the mixture. But I'm not a petroleum expert.

Not this spring but spring of 2016, somehow water got into my lawnmower's tank over the winter. The only thing I could think of was I forgot to top the tank off before putting it up for the season. Then over the winter, condensation formed in the tank and the water sunk to the bottom. I blinded over two fuel filters. I ran all of this gas through one of those Mr. Funnels and it seemed to get rid of the water.

I still buy non ethanol though.

Darryl G said:

The primary reason for the use of ethanol is to replace Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) as an additive in gasoline due to environmental problems with it. MTBE replaced Tetraethyl Lead, also due to environmental problems. The soils along many roadsides are still contaminated by lead from the use of Tetraethyl Lead and a lot of groundwater is still contaminated with MTBE. It is very soluble and mobile in groundwater (compared to other gasoline components). In comparison, ethanol is much less toxic...I deliberately consumed some after work this evening and it made me feel good

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I had always heard that $1.00 worth of ethanol costs $2.00 to make/transport and ethanol is highly subsidized by the government thanks to the corn lobbyists so that is why it is added to gasoline. For no good reason other than for kickbacks. Sounds like a good conspiracy theory but I kind of doubt that to be honest.

Then I read the reason behind 10% ethanol being added to gasoline was an anti-knock additive which is cheaper and not as toxic as MTBE. That's why pure gasoline costs more. Ethanol is supposed to be around 114 octane.

turbofiat124 said:

I buy non ethanol gas for my mowers.

The reason I buy non ethanol is because I'd always heard alcohol will absorb moisture in the air/tank and that's what causes phase separation. Not so much the the ethanol itself separates from the gasoline but when moisture is introduced to the mixture. But I'm not a petroleum expert.

Not this spring but spring of 2016, somehow water got into my lawnmower's tank over the winter. The only thing I could think of was I forgot to top the tank off before putting it up for the season. Then over the winter, condensation formed in the tank and the water sunk to the bottom. I blinded over two fuel filters. I ran all of this gas through one of those Mr. Funnels and it seemed to get rid of the water.

I still buy non ethanol though.

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Clearly you're correct about the dangers of phase separation. Water (that is, moisture) is absorbed by ethanol. When it reaches the saturation point the mixture sinks to the bottom of the tank because it is heavier than the remaining gasoline. This can begin to occur in about 30 days and, over time, up to 100% of the ethanol can be pulled from the gasoline.

The ethanol / water mixture can be very harmful and even ruin an engine. In addition, the ethanol free gasoline can cause knocking.

Small engine fuel caps are vented. As a result, moisture (perhaps in the form of condensation) from the storage area can enter the fuel tank due to expansion and contraction during storage. The best ways to avoid this are by a) adding a stabilizer to the fuel and filling the tank, or b) running your equipment to dry.

turbofiat124 said:

I had always heard that $1.00 worth of ethanol costs $2.00 to make/transport and ethanol is highly subsidized by the government thanks to the corn lobbyists so that is why it is added to gasoline. For no good reason other than for kickbacks. Sounds like a good conspiracy theory but I kind of doubt that to be honest.

Then I read the reason behind 10% ethanol being added to gasoline was an anti-knock additive which is cheaper and not as toxic as MTBE. That's why pure gasoline costs more. Ethanol is supposed to be around 114 octane.

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For the record, ethanol subsidies ended in 2011. The cost of straight gasoline and ethanol are generally close to equal although gasoline varies with the price of oil.

turbofiat124 said:

I had always heard that $1.00 worth of ethanol costs $2.00 to make/transport and ethanol is highly subsidized by the government thanks to the corn lobbyists so that is why it is added to gasoline. For no good reason other than for kickbacks. Sounds like a good conspiracy theory but I kind of doubt that to be honest.

Then I read the reason behind 10% ethanol being added to gasoline was an anti-knock additive which is cheaper and not as toxic as MTBE. That's why pure gasoline costs more. Ethanol is supposed to be around 114 octane.

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Yup and it's also an oxygenate which helps reduce smog-causing emissions. Due to not meeting air quality standards most areas in NY and CT have to have an oxygenate added and ethanol fits the bill while also acting as an anti-knock agent and boosting octane. So it has multiple purposes but also multiple negative effects.

Darryl G said:

Yup and it's also an oxygenate which helps reduce smog-causing emissions. Due to not meeting air quality standards most areas in NY and CT have to have an oxygenate added and ethanol fits the bill while also acting as an anti-knock agent and boosting octane. So it has multiple purposes but also multiple negative effects.

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I'm not a big fan of the EPA. But I do like clean air, water and soil. Without it, a lot of this country would look like LA.

Regular maintenance and draining the carb is key to any equipment. I get sooo many mowers, weed eater and things of that nature, that just sat too long with old gas in it. I get good mowers from the scrap yard, that just need the carbs cleaned out. I can pick up a riding mower for about $15 to $20 at the scrap yard.