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crabgrass issue

#1

C

corvairbob

last year i posted about the grass i had n my yard. the group decided it was crabgrass. but being it was late in the year i did not bother just killing the yard off to fix it and it was to late to put anything on it.

so now that it is about time to put fertilizer on the yard tell me will weed and feed remove the crab grass and then let the remaining grass fill in the open areas that remain. i see lowe's has a few types of weed and feed fertilizers now ready for spring and they have on the they call weed and crabgrass control. but being i have crabgrass now does anyone know if these will work?

i'm not really wanting to just plain kill the grass back to dirt and then have to reseed all over, if that is the only way to remedy this then i guess i have crabgrass. but i have to ask just in case using the fertilizer and crabgrass preventer or the weed and feed type will cause the crabgrass to go away and let the grass left fill in? thanks bp


#2

D

Darryl G

Crabgrass is an annual that comes back from seeds from the prior season. If you're seeing it now I don't think it's crabgrass. You need to use a pre-emergent to prevent it from germinating. Timing is important. In my experience when the Pussy Willows start blooming is about the right time.


#3

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
Crabgrass is an annual that comes back from seeds from the prior season. If you're seeing it now I don't think it's crabgrass. You need to use a pre-emergent to prevent it from germinating. Timing is important. In my experience when the Pussy Willows start blooming is about the right time.
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i don't think i see it now what i need to find out is if i did have crabgrass will the weed and feed stop it or the crabgrass preventer stop it from returning this year. i posted tons of pictures last year and the consensus was that i had crabgrass. so far this year after the snow it grass is now what brown! i too pictures and if i can get them posted maybe you can tell?

what i would like to do is stop it before it starts. but if it is there only dormant then i will put up with it as i'm not poisoning the yard and making it all dirt to kill off grass. but if the weed and feed can stop it this year i will try it if not no sense wasting money and time for doing what will not work. thanks

1st 4 are the back yard the last 2 are the front yard

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#4

tom3

tom3

My dad used to say if it's green it's good. I'd settle for your yard right now. My yard is being taken over by some creeping weed stuff, creeping Jenny/Charlie or something. But good weed and feed from a drop spreader applied right will knock out the broadleaf crab grass and not really hurt the regular blade grass, and this early in the season will really make it look nice.


#5

C

corvairbob

thanks i kind of lean towards your dad saying as well. i have neighbors giving me hell because i have this type starting in front. one thing i can say is this grass whatever it is lays low to the ground stays some type of green and i do not have to mow it but maybe 5 times last year. so maybe i will get the weed and feed and know out anything that is not grass. and if this is grass of some type that is good it will jst keep going.

if you see the pictures you might see what i was talking about. thanks for the input. looks like i get some weed and feed now and apply it now and let the rains work it into the ground. maybe it will take the dandy out this year. again thanks


#6

D

Darryl G

Ok. The thing to do with Crabgrass is to prevent it from sprouting with a per-emergent herbicide around mid spring, when shrubs are blooming and trees are budding - something with a Crabgrass preventer. Any Crabgrass from last year is already dead. Once it takes hold it's generally too late to do anything but hit it with a liquid and for practical reasons that's usually just for spot applications.

A healthy stand of turf is the key to keeping weeds and Crabgrass away, as well as proper fertilization, irrigation and cutting at the proper height etc. You want conditions suitable to grow grass, not weeds and crabgrass. Cutting your lawn too short is a great way to encourage Crabgrass. People with crappy lawns tend to cut them too short because it looks better than leggy spotty growth, but that just perpetuates the cycle.

Weed and feed products are generally for broadleaf weed control, although some may have a Crabgrass preventer too.

But yes, if your lawn is mostly weeds and crabgrass, all you'll have left is dirt and spring isn't the time to try to renovate a lawn, fall is. I go through this every year...my customers want me to re-seed their lawn in the spring because that's when it looks the worst with all of the dead Crabgrass and bare patches. But unless the house is on the market and you need it to look green for a while or the lawn is irrigated it's just a waste of money. Chances are that it won't make it through the summer. Then fall comes around and it's green from the weeds and Crabgrass so they decline doing anything about it, again. I go through this EVERY YEAR with the same customers!


#7

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
Ok. The thing to do with Crabgrass is to prevent it from sprouting with a per-emergent herbicide around mid spring, when shrubs are blooming and trees are budding - something with a Crabgrass preventer. Any Crabgrass from last year is already dead. Once it takes hold it's generally too late to do anything but hit it with a liquid and for practical reasons that's usually just for spot applications.

A healthy stand of turf is the key to keeping weeds and Crabgrass away, as well as proper fertilization, irrigation and cutting at the proper height etc. You want conditions suitable to grow grass, not weeds and crabgrass. Cutting your lawn too short is a great way to encourage Crabgrass. People with crappy lawns tend to cut them too short because it looks better than leggy spotty growth, but that just perpetuates the cycle.

Weed and feed products are generally for broadleaf weed control, although some may have a Crabgrass preventer too.

But yes, if your lawn is mostly weeds and crabgrass, all you'll have left is dirt and spring isn't the time to try to renovate a lawn, fall is. I go through this every year...my customers want me to re-seed their lawn in the spring because that's when it looks the worst with all of the dead Crabgrass and bare patches. But unless the house is on the market and you need it to look green for a while or the lawn is irrigated it's just a waste of money. Chances are that it won't make it through the summer. Then fall comes around and it's green from the weeds and Crabgrass so they decline doing anything about it, again. I go through this EVERY YEAR with the same customers!
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thanks darryl what is strange is i water 3 to 4 time a week for 1/2 hour per zone and i have put out pans to make sure i'm getting plenty of water. also i cut my grass at about 4" down to 3" sometimes i even let it got long enough to show seed. i had no bare spots in my yard and then last year like magic i got this different grass. i took pictures and last year they all told me it was crabgrass. and that is was too late to do anything about it. so like your saying i did what should be done for a good lawn. the grass looks different than it used to and i have no clue what is is. it doesn't grow tall like it did before it stays close to the ground to the point that last year i cut it like 4 or 5 times. it just did not grow tall. the grass was not single chutes like you see in pictures but it was forked and had multiple chutes form the ground. so i think i should get the fertilized and crab grass preventer and use that instead of the weed and feed. if that take the this so called crabgrass away then next year or later this year i can then use weed and feed. is that about correct? thanks


#8

D

Darryl G

I just checked your old thread and yeah, looks like Crabgrass to me too.


#9

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
I just checked your old thread and yeah, looks like Crabgrass to me too.
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thanks darryl i have no idea where it came from as it spread like over night. so i will get some crabgrass crabgrass preventer from lowes this week and put it down next week. we have buds starting now and i have tulips and glads coming out of the ground.

lowes has the bags for 4,000' sq' coverage now they call it sta-green crab-ex plus. it is a fertilizer and crabgrass preventer in one bag. then what do you thin about putting down the weed and feed in a month or 2 or will it be to late for the weed and feed then thanks


#10

D

Darryl G

Sounds good. 4 weeks might be little soon. 6 weeks is usually about right in my area.


#11

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
Sounds good. 4 weeks might be little soon. 6 weeks is usually about right in my area.
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i'm in muskegon mi. so i will get some of that crabgrass with fertilizer in it this week and put it down in april and then may get some of that weed and feed and put that down the first part of may. then see how it goes unless your thinking that is to soon between applications. if so can you give me a time frame. or maybe not do the weed and feed this year just the crabgrass preventer and then do the weed an feed later or next year. thanks much for the advice. bp


#12

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
Sounds good. 4 weeks might be little soon. 6 weeks is usually about right in my area.
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darryl this is what i have done so far. tell me i did not mess it up! i went out today and de-thached the yard both front and back and at that time i ran the mower to cut up the thatch and got it out of the yard.

tomorrow i will got get the fertilizer and crabgrass preventer and apply it to the yard. my yard now is de-thatched so i see dirt. in the fall i cut the grass back to like 2" and today i cut it to 2" . so i either messed it up or got it ready for the preventer tomorrow. thanks bp.


#13

D

Darryl G

Sounds good. If you're going to dethatch the preventer is key because you've essentially created a nice seed bed for the bizzilions of crabgrass seeds laying around. Guess we'll ultimately find out, won't we.


#14

cpurvis

cpurvis

And cutting it at 2" will give the weed seeds plenty of sunlight. Taller grass deprives seeds of the necessary sunlight to sprout.

There are various pre-emergents on the market. IIRC, one called Barricade had the longest effectiveness.


#15

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
Sounds good. If you're going to dethatch the preventer is key because you've essentially created a nice seed bed for the bizzilions of crabgrass seeds laying around. Guess we'll ultimately find out, won't we.
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thanks darryl. yes we will. in a few weeks i will either have a bare yard or a nice green yard full of crabgrass that i fed good for the season. i will keep everyone posted as this progresses. thanks bp.


#16

C

corvairbob

corvairbob said:
thanks darryl. yes we will. in a few weeks i will either have a bare yard or a nice green yard full of crabgrass that i fed good for the season. i will keep everyone posted as this progresses. thanks bp.
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ok today i mowed the yard again and bagged it and then put down some scotts turf builder halts crabgrass. it has crabgrass preventer and lawn food as well. i have 11.300 sq ft for both yards and this covers 15,000 so i put 1/3 in front and 2/3 in back. i went north to south and east to west 4 times each yard picture of how the stuff wound up on the yard


so now i went to lowes to get more info on some weed and feed as this has no weed control in it and i find 74 neg reviews on this product. some said they got more crabgrass than they had before. so if it fails to work this year next year i will have a very nice green lawn full of crabgrass as i will not wast another dime on it if i do not see some improvements. so i guess for now time will tell.

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#17

C

corvairbob

ok i have another question maybe some can help me with. i put the crabgrass preventer on my lawn and it did rain last night and some today so it is now starting to go into the lawn. today i went out to test the ph and my meter say 9.5 to 10 when i keep moving the meter in ond out of the dirt but keep it in the dirt. if i let it set for a bit it settles to 7. i tested the neighbors lawn and they have 7.5 and i tested next door in an open field and that was 7.5 and along my garage where i have potting soil and did not apply the crabgrass preventer and that was 7.

so my question is this. does the crabgrass preventer make the soil ph rise way up or might i just have a hi ph level and now have to add stuff to lower it? i have not added lime for years and i water with shallow well water. but never tested the water for ph. but the well water does leave stains on the house and cement. but that may not be iron it could be tannen's

anyway what might this be the scotts crabgrass preventer working or i just managed to develop a high alkaline yard that now i have to sour up some? here is a picture of the tester i used thanks

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#18

D

Darryl G

I wouldn't base any decisions on a pH meter like yours. Have you done the Scotch-Brite conditioning procedure on the electrodes lately?

Most states have an Agricultural Extension Service that will test your soil for free or for a nominal charge. Might be worth looking into.


#19

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
I wouldn't base any decisions on a pH meter like yours. Have you done the Scotch-Brite conditioning procedure on the electrodes lately?

Most states have an Agricultural Extension Service that will test your soil for free or for a nominal charge. Might be worth looking into.
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yes i did brush them bright thanks i have used this before but i have not used it in a few years and never after i applied any treatments. and because now my yard is 9.5 and all around me is 7 to 7.5 that is why i asked. the only place i did not treat is 7.5 plus on 18 ft area i had a pool in and last year i had 5 yds aof top soil dumped into that spot to fill it in for a yard and now that is also 9.5 so that almost makes me think the scott crabgrass preventative may be causing this at this time as it dissolves into the soil. i will check it again in a week and see if it changes. again thanks


#20

cpurvis

cpurvis

I doubt if the crabgrass pre-emergent is changing the pH of the soil, at least not that much.

It takes huge amounts of lime to change the pH from 9 to 7 and most of the ingredients of a bag of fertilizer/herbicides are inert.


#21

D

Darryl G

You may be getting a false reading due to electrical properties of the application you did. I highly doubt it's a true reading. BTW I was a chemist and then an environmental scientist/hydrogeologist for 15 years combined and have run all sorts of laboratory and field instruments. I've learned to never ever make decisions without confirmation of any analytical parameters.

We used to take the pH of soil samples by adding them to a measured volume of water and using a pH meter to analyze the liquid. That was the ASTM method.

Bottom line, I have serious doubts that is the pH of your soil. As far as your shallow well goes, if you're in an area with a lot of limestone it could be alkaline for sure but not that high I don't think. Your water quality certainly could be having an adverse effect on your lawn though if it's high in dissolved minerals and salts. Stains are usually from dissolved iron (red/tan/brown) and manganese (grey/black/dark brown). So you may want to have your water tested too. Look around for reduced price testing through your local health department or state regulatory agency or other program. Maybe even the agricultural extension. You can also buy colorometric strips for many tests too, just like use for testing pool water.


#22

C

corvairbob

cpurvis said:
I doubt if the crabgrass pre-emergent is changing the pH of the soil, at least not that much.

It takes huge amounts of lime to change the pH from 9 to 7 and most of the ingredients of a bag of fertilizer/herbicides are inert.
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thanks something is changing it. tomorrow i will test the sprinkler water just to see. out tap water tests with this tester at 7 and i asked the city and they said they try to keep it at 7. we get our water from lake michigan so it is relatively soft water. no one on our city water uses any treatments. and we do not get water stains in the washer or toilets so using our water to calibrate this is good not the best but good.

so if my well water test with this tester to be around 7 then i have to say for now the crabgrass preventer is causing the change for the moment. also tomorrow i will test the neighbors yard where my sprinklers water there yard and if they have lower ph then that about nails it down to the preventer as it is melting into the soil. thanks


#23

C

corvairbob

Darryl G said:
You may be getting a false reading due to electrical properties of the application you did. I highly doubt it's a true reading. BTW I was a chemist and then an environmental scientist/hydrogeologist for 15 years combined and have run all sorts of laboratory and field instruments. I've learned to never ever make decisions without confirmation of any analytical parameters.

We used to take the pH of soil samples by adding them to a measured volume of water and using a pH meter to analyze the liquid. That was the ASTM method.

Bottom line, I have serious doubts that is the pH of your soil. As far as your shallow well goes, if you're in an area with a lot of limestone it could be alkaline for sure but not that high I don't think. Your water quality certainly could be having an adverse effect on your lawn though if it's high in dissolved minerals and salts. Stains are usually from dissolved iron (red/tan/brown) and manganese (grey/black/dark brown). So you may want to have your water tested too. Look around for reduced price testing through your local health department or state regulatory agency or other program. Maybe even the agricultural extension. You can also buy colorometric strips for many tests too, just like use for testing pool water.
Click to expand...

thanks i tend to agree with false readings due to the preventer now dissolving and not in the ret of the close area i did not apply it. i have about a spoon full left in the bag so i will put that in some water and see what happens. if it turns out about the same then i have the reason. and i will post that test.


#24

C

corvairbob

corvairbob said:
thanks i tend to agree with false readings due to the preventer now dissolving and not in the ret of the close area i did not apply it. i have about a spoon full left in the bag so i will put that in some water and see what happens. if it turns out about the same then i have the reason. and i will post that test.
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ok put a few pellets of the crabgrass preventer in a bowl and water and as the pellets dissolved the meter show going to 6 and lower so now i have to measure the well water tomorrow i will get a sample as today it is like 30 deg out and i'm not freeing to get the sample. but then i will know if the well is turning the ground sweet. thanks


#25

D

Darryl G

cpurvis said:
It takes huge amounts of lime to change the pH from 9 to 7 and most of the ingredients of a bag of fertilizer/herbicides are inert.
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No amount of lime would change the pH from 9 to 7...wrong direction. Lime raises pH.


#26

cpurvis

cpurvis

Darryl G said:
No amount of lime would change the pH from 9 to 7...wrong direction. Lime raises pH.
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If you could take lime OUT of the soil it would....and you'd have to take out a lot.


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