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I was going to replace an old light socket today. It was just sort of hanging by the wires. The LED I bought for it, wouldn't screw in far enough to connect. (just a normal bulb screw in type), So I thought I'd change out the whole thing. I'm fairly knowledgeable about wiring, so turned off the light switch, undid the wires, and decided to check which one was hot. I've repaired some other wiring in this old house, and found the white was the hot and black was neutral. And sure enough it was the same. Except there was an even bigger problem. With just the light switch off, I was still getting current through the white wire.
So here's how the wiring went. From the breaker box, it went up through the attic where it was spliced. One went to the plug by the washer, the other went to the light socket first, then onto the switch.
I screwed up when I unhooked the wires, because I was under the assumption that the wiring came through the wall to the switch first, from the breaker and then up to the light.


I can't figure out how on earth he got the light switch to power the light, when there's only two wires (a black & a white) going from the splice, through the light socket and then ending at the light switch.
I have three wire nuts laying there when realized, something ain't right. And that's where I got lost.

Not unusual for the lights to be wired on the hot side of the switch in old houses and then use the switch to break the circuit on the neutral side. What color wire is connected at the breaker to feed that circuit. Is black connected to the breaker or the white wire. .

So potentially you could of had a white from splice connected to the black at the socket and then white wire at socket connected to white wire going to switch. and then white and black both connected to their separate connectors on the switch and then the black is wire nutted to the unused black back at the light.

If it were me I would go buy one of these AC outlet testers. They quickly tell you how the outlet has been wired. When I find ones like yours i rewire them properly, starting at the breaker box. Like IL said many of the older homes were wired this way, especially in rural areas, or someone who didn’t know what they were doing. Takes a bit of time, but saves a big headache and sparks down the road. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Recepta...VLQ1EEAQYBSABEgKA4_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#overlay

Wait you run across some my wiring...Drop a 240 vac line (three wire with safety ground) and split it for full time wall plug use and a switched light circuit. Or drop a 240v line to wall plug but have two 120v 15/20 circuits at at the plug. All while having two separate breakers on the 240v line

ILENGINE said:

Not unusual for the lights to be wired on the hot side of the switch in old houses and then use the switch to break the circuit on the neutral side. What color wire is connected at the breaker to feed that circuit. Is black connected to the breaker or the white wire. .

So potentially you could of had a white from splice connected to the black at the socket and then white wire at socket connected to white wire going to switch. and then white and black both connected to their separate connectors on the switch and then the black is wire nutted to the unused black back at the light.

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That sounds about like what was going on. I wished I had taken a picture of this before I started pulling the wire nuts off.
The white wire from the switch, I'm almost positive was connected straight to the light. From what you said, and what I remember, this is the only way it could've been done.
After drawing this picture, It makes perfect sense. And seems safe enough.


The guy who wired this house knew what he was doing. But he's the ONLY one who knew HOW he was doing it.

PTmowerMech said:

That sounds about like what was going on. I wished I had taken a picture of this before I started pulling the wire nuts off.
The white wire from the switch, I'm almost positive was connected straight to the light. From what you said, and what I remember, this is the only way it could've been done.
After drawing this picture, It makes perfect sense. And seems safe enough.
View attachment 66163

The guy who wired this house knew what he was doing. But he's the ONLY one who knew HOW he was doing it.

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That would be the safest way to wire it but i would not be surprised to find that the White hot was wired directly to the light and the switch was on the black neutral side of the circuit. I have come across enough house wiring setups over the years to know I would not be surprised that the electricians were taught to wire the light socket to the hot side of the circuit and put the switch on the neutral side.

It would NEVER pass the building code and inspection in this part of the country. Years ago I worked with a neighbor who had to rewire 75% of his house before the inspector would OK it so he could put it up for sale. He had purchased it AS IS and never bothered to bring it up to code until he had to sell it. Plus there were a few circuits which had 14-2 wire, no bare ground wires, so we had to run new wires 14-2 with ground. Not that hard, but it was the last time I agreed to help someone repair holes in sheet rock. PITA

Rivets said:

It would NEVER pass the building code and inspection in this part of the country. Years ago I worked with a neighbor who had to rewire 75% of his house before the inspector would OK it so he could put it up for sale. He had purchased it AS IS and never bothered to bring it up to code until he had to sell it. Plus there were a few circuits which had 14-2 wire, no bare ground wires, so we had to run new wires 14-2 with ground. Not that hard, but it was the last time I agreed to help someone repair holes in sheet rock. PITA

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There was no building code when this was done. If there was, all it would've taken was a $20 and a six pack to get it approved. None the less, it's lasted for a long time with no shorts, no fires and no dangers. Sometimes building codes are just stupid.
Then other times, they're necessary. Even for people who are licensed to do electrical work. Everyone has their bad days.


I was going to run a wire from a nearby wall outlet to the switch (in the diagram), then on up to the light. But there was two layers of 1/8" paneling. And then some old wooden lap siding behind that. ( the wash room was added to what was the exterior of the house)

If this wasn't a rent house, I'd have already started rewiring it. Some of these wires are as old as the house. I may get up in the attic this fall and try to sort through some the wires, as I need more plugs in a couple of room, and relocate some light switches. But it's 110 in the attic right now. And not that important.

Under the old NEC you can use 14/2 w gnd to wire a switch to a light you break the hot and you put black tape on the white wire to show it is now a hot. Under the new NEC rules you must have a neutral at every box. This means you must run 14/3 w gnd to the switch and use the black and red for the switch and put black tape on the red to show it is now a hot and the white neutral just terminates in the box.

Hammermechanicman said:

Under the old NEC you can use 14/2 w gnd to wire a switch to a light you break the hot and you put black tape on the white wire to show it is now a hot. Under the new NEC rules you must have a neutral at every box. This means you must run 14/3 w gnd to the switch and use the black and red for the switch and put black tape on the red to show it is now a hot and the white neutral just terminates in the box.

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LoL... My water heater is wired with just a white and a black. Both are hot. It's not even grounded.

PTmowerMech said:

LoL... My water heater is wired with just a white and a black. Both are hot. It's not even grounded.

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Someone was just being cheap. should have been 12/3 w ground. (4500 watt elements). But even here in my trailer they use 12/2 with ground. The electrician was suppose to wrap the wire wire with red tape and provide a safety ground. No need for a neutral on a true 240 application.

PT, not only was someone cheap, they are stupid and putting everyone in that building in risk. I’ve reported guys like that, especially if it is a rental and I’ve got a friend living there.

They made it illegal for home owners down here to do their own wiring
When you sell a property there is a manditory electrical safety check which is usually done by old semi- retired sparkies or those recovering from an injury
When we got ours done he said "you did a really nice job on the wiring"
Thinking he was trying to trap me I responded with "what makes you think I touched it "
HE replied it was the only hose all year he had seen that was wired correctly , the wire saddles were all less than the maximum permissible spacing , there were proper excess loops at every switch & fixed fitting , the wires all followed the timbers in place of being stretched in strait lines to reduce the amount of wire needed and there were 6 power circuits all with 2 fewer outlets on them than the maximum allowable 8 .
The rewire happened when we fitted the ceiling fan
When I loosened the wires they snapped back into the ceiling and so I had to crawl up into the cavity
All of the wires were stretched so tight you could have played them like a violin
The water was the same , all done with thin wall capillary tube not proper water pipe so all of that had to be redone as well .

And boy I hate those lazy man outlets where you just push the wires in.

I refuse to use the back wired push in devices. Seen too many burned up. I only use the ones that clamp a straight wire under a plate and screw. Too lazy to wrap wires around screws anymore.

When I built my home I had the contractor have the electrician remove all push in receptacles and I checked before I paid my last payment. Electrician wasn’t happy because his buddy wrote off the inspection, but I wouldn’t accept it. I don’t know what his problem was as I told the contractor that I wouldn’t accept certain short cuts before we signed the contract and he told me the electrician had been told beforehand.

Rivets said:

PT, not only was someone cheap, they are stupid and putting everyone in that building in risk. I’ve reported guys like that, especially if it is a rental and I’ve got a friend living there.

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But that's the thing, there really is no danger. Current that's contained, is still contained. Regardless of how it's routed or the color of the coating.
The only danger that comes into play is having too much on one circuit. There was an issue with that just prior to me moving in. That was because more appliances were being added to the kitchen. So they ran 3 separate circuits.

If by some chance I'm allowed to buy this house, I will be redoing most the wiring. And adding some new wall plugs. This house is 50yrs old, and built by local folks who knew what they were doing. Even if no one else did. There's been no shorts or fire hazards. (regardless of what some building inspector says about it).

Funny thing, people around here who have about the same size house are paying about $50 to $150 more per month for electricity than I am. And all their stuff is at least 20yrs newer than mine.
If it ain't broke, I say don't fix it.

Rivets said:

When I built my home I had the contractor have the electrician remove all push in receptacles and I checked before I paid my last payment. Electrician wasn’t happy because his buddy wrote off the inspection, but I wouldn’t accept it. I don’t know what his problem was as I told the contractor that I wouldn’t accept certain short cuts before we signed the contract and he told me the electrician had been told beforehand.

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Yeah I don't trust those push in receptacles either. They don't make enough contact. It only takes a second to make a 3/4 loop in the wire and fasten it with the screw.

StarTech said:

And boy I hate those lazy man outlets where you just push the wires in.

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I think those should only be used for circuits that only have LED's lights. The wall plugs where someone is going to be pulling a lot of juice through, is only asking for trouble.

Sorry PT, there really is a danger. Codes or rules are put there mainly for the repair man or woman. Just like in the small engine business we have to make assumptions that things are done a certain way. Repair personnel are killed or injured everyday because someone failed to follow the rules.

Rivets said:

Sorry PT, there really is a danger. Codes or rules are put there mainly for the repair man or woman. Just like in the small engine business we have to make assumptions that things are done a certain way. Repair personnel are killed or injured everyday because someone failed to follow the rules.

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I'm not opposed to all rules and regs. And agree, if everything is done the same way, it does make things easier and safer for the next guy. But just because something is done differently, doesn't make it unsafe. When it comes to wiring, this is why we have testers to make sure something isn't hot.
Apparently the guy who did this, wasn't a contractor. Probably a family member who knew what he was doing, But did things his own way. The next that comes along (as in me) has to figure out "his way." Thanks to you fella's, and drawing it out on a piece of paper, I was able to figure it all out. And to keep everything safe, I had to install this new light fixture the way he did it.
In all honesty, the rules and regs could've been written up the way this guy did it. Someone somewhere decided that black was hot and white was neutral. When they made that decision, they could've said that white is going to be hot. And that would've been the standard from now on.

Looking at some of the other wiring in the attic, I can tell a lot of it has been up there since the house was built. It has some sort of black mesh coating over the wires, instead of the plastic coating that's used today. They must've made stuff a lot better back in the day, because it's still working as it should.

I wonder what new 12-2 strip of wiring is going to look like in 50 years.

PTmowerMech said:

Looking at some of the other wiring in the attic, I can tell a lot of it has been up there since the house was built. It has some sort of black mesh coating over the wires, instead of the plastic coating that's used today. They must've made stuff a lot better back in the day, because it's still working as it should.

I wonder what new 12-2 strip of wiring is going to look like in 50 years.

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Most likely asphalt impregnated paper insulation. My house has the same wiring.

At one time there was an AC color code and a different DC color code setup but I have notice on mowers the OEM are using a mix of the codes now. Can be a little confusing for of us was only exposed to one of the two electrical industries. Most times I need an actually wiring schematic to know how wired things.

And now of course JD uses a number system along with wire colors and you better being for the numbers as they change colors over time but with the same number. That is why I had to buy the JD service manuals on equipment I work on.