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About the steering system.

#1

B

Bange

It doesn't appear on the diagram, but shouldn't there be something helping to support the plate sector in this hole?
m_20230610_165317.jpg

Another doubt is how much the front wheels turn... it seems excessive to me, even hitting the drag links (LH/RH) at the end of the course.
There are ears on the Spindle Asm.(RH/LH), which would limit the spin...but despite looking like wear and tear, on the Axle Asm. (Front), there is nothing compatible with the same wear.
What do you think?
m_20230610_172925.jpgm_20230610_172943.jpgm_20230610_174847.jpgm_20230610_180108.jpg


#2

R

Rivets

Nothing goes in that hole. You need to adjust both tie rods, as I’ll bet your wheel have major toe out. Also check to make sure the sector plate bushing and steering shaft bushings are is in good condition. If they are worn or the teeth are worn the gears will jump.


#3

B

Bange

Yes, according to the diagram nothing there...but a screw with a limiting sleeve would guarantee more precision and less wobble in the secto plate.
Good, sector plate bushing minimal wear...steering shaf bushing, perfect...teeth little wear...
Talk more about "I'll bet your wheel have major toe out", I don't understand.


#4

B

bertsmobile1

When ZTR's came out all the tractor style mower makers went to "Tight Turn" steering to prove that are just as manovourable as a ZTR which of course they never will or can be unless they go to rear wheel steering ( like a forklift truck ) .
So you now have wheels that just about turn to a right angle and steering shafts that bend all over the place, excessive wear in the fan gear and steering bush .
But apparently this is a good idea because it allows the operator to be a lot lazier


#5

B

Bange

I found this material from John Deere... it's not the same sector plate, but it serves the purpose I think.
And it can even act as an end-of-course limiter for the steering.

1686450724082.png


#6

R

Rivets

Front wheel’s should be nearly parallel and straight when the steering is centered . Toe out means the wheel is pointing out. Toe in means the wheels are pointing in. Adjusting the tie rods will change the position of the wheel.


#7

B

Bange

My draglinks have no adjustment, they are fixed.
My wheels are reasonably parallel and in line with the steering wheel.


#8

B

bertsmobile1

The wheels should have a slight toe in to make it easier to turn the steering wheel back to strait ahead


#9

B

Bange

I ended up taking advantage of that hole in the plate sector.
I made a bushing, crossed by a screw plus a wide washer and another pressure washer.
m_20230611_153322.jpgm_20230611_172728.jpg
Now the plate sector doesn't wobble and there's only looseness between the gears... it's excellent.

However, when I align the sector plate, the wheels are slightly to the left, as is the steering wheel.
m_20230611_184221.jpgm_20230611_184228.jpg

I'll have to change the geometry of the Spindle Asm. RH/LH).


#10

B

Bange

bertsmobile1 said:
The wheels should have a slight toe in to make it easier to turn the steering wheel back to strait ahead
Click to expand...
If my draglinks were adjustable it would be easy, but... I'll try hard.


#11

R

Rivets

Please show us a couple of low pictures with the wheels what you think are straight forward. To me there is something wrong with the left whee as I look at it. I’m not worried about the steering wheel at this point.


#12

B

Bange

I removed the car lift and adjusted the steering wheel (the sector plate is misaligned).
m_20230611_214846.jpgm_20230611_214818.jpgm_20230611_214802.jpgm_20230611_214732.jpgm_20230611_214613.jpgm_20230611_214553.jpgm_20230611_214541.jpg


#13

R

Rivets

To me as I see it the left wheel spindle (as you look at the pictures, right if you are on the sear) is bent down and forward. The right could also be, but not as much as the left.


#14

B

Bange

I can't see what you're talking about, but any correction (as I don't have drag adjustments) will have to be on the splindle ears.


#15

R

Rivets

The flat area where the drag link attaches to the wheel spindle on the left definitely looks to be bent lower than the right one. But the right one also looks bent also. This is one time when being there would definitely help.


#16

B

Bange

See a close-up, but remember that the shild is crooked.
Detalhe da frente.jpg


#17

B

bertsmobile1

Gets back to that discussion we were having in the oil filter thread,,,, Cheapness .
So you have 2 choices, buy the aftermarket ones that do have adjustments on them
or
bend the drag links to shorten the one that is too long
In reality you should straighten the one that is too short but that is a lot harder to do, not that bending a hardened shaft is easy in the first place .


#18

B

Bange

There are other options... create adjustment of the current drags or straighten the spindles, which seems to me to be the real problem.
When the original part is expensive or not available, creativity is used.


#19

B

Bange

Focusing on the cited parts and now with daylight, I could observe some things (with aligned sectorplate)
1 - In fact there is a difference in the size of the drags.
2 - There is a weld on the right side drag (seat).
3 - Matching the drags, there will still have to be a small correction in the spindles.
m_20230612_091047.jpgm_20230612_091101.jpgm_20230612_093652.jpg

First I'll match the drags, then I'll check camber, caster, convergence (without the laser...;)).


#20

B

bertsmobile1

Murray do not have a bush on the fabricated front cross member pivot
As such it will move in 2 arcs, one up & down & the other front to back
Because the cross member pivots in an arc, the fan gear needs to be able to do the same to some degree.
There are 2 bushes on the king pin that control the camber and caster is a non event as the slop in the cross mender negates any attempt to set it
This by the way is adjustable as the plate in front of the cross member has slots so you can tighten it .


#21

B

Bange

I'm still hitting the drag...
Could you show me the drawing?
" This by the way is adjustable as the plate in front of the cross member has slots so you can tighten it . "


#22

R

Rivets

I don’t know if this right spindle is the correct one for your unit, but if you look closely the part where the drag link attaches is not bent down like the one on your unit. Please post your Murray numbers. https://www.ereplacementparts.com/spindle-assembly-right-p-271195.html


#23

B

Bange

42L18G60X8A


#24

B

Bange

Do not scare me!
In the diagram it appears with the fold.

1686599785938.png1686599785938.png


#25

R

Rivets

You have circled the left hand spindle, I’m talking about the right hand spindle. If you look at this one, part number 705152 you will see yours has a bend in it. New one is straight. https://www.ereplacementparts.com/spindle-asm-p-2143477.html


#26

B

Bange

But the right one too... see it enlarged... the angle doesn't favor it, but it does have a fold.

1686607869288.png1686607869288.png


#27

R

Rivets

Sorry to bother you as we are not on the same page and you’ve made your decision as to how to proceed. Good luck with your project, as I am not being of much help.


#28

B

Bange

Well, I went ahead with the fix on Spindle...
Tomorrow during the day I will see the result better.
Before
m_20230612_181743.jpg
After
m_20230612_184406.jpg

Before
m_20230612_181730.jpg
After
m_20230612_190221.jpg

It was relatively easy, but if there was drag adjustment it would be much better.


#29

B

Bange

Rivets said:
Sorry to bother you as we are not on the same page and you’ve made your decision as to how to proceed. Good luck with your project, as I am not being of much help.
Click to expand...
On the contrary friend, any comment is important, even if it is not in the way of my immediate solution.
After completing the adjustment on the spindle, I was able to assess that the best way out would be to make an adjustable drag... but I couldn't gather the necessary material.
The adjustment on the spindle is apparently good, but if not, it is returnable.


#30

B

Bange

Well, the work on the spindles turned out pretty good and it might stay that way until I sort out an adjustable drag.
Yesterday, when removing the spindles, I noticed that the bushings are already at the end of their useful life, but I can't reproduce these because they are too thin and I ran out of raw material.
After all the adjustment, the left wheel continued to scrape the drag link a little less... and the right one started to touch, which did not happen before.
So I reversed the drags and... BINGO!!!

m_20230613_101554.jpgm_20230613_095818.jpgm_20230613_095900.jpg

More and more I hate those who did maintenance before me...:mad:


#31

B

Bange

Well, trying to solve the excess wheel spin (L/R), I already adjusted the end limit (which is now done in the plate sector, before it was at the end of the gear), adjusted the length of the drags, corrected the alignment and recovered the excess play in a drag, I saw the need to change the front wheel axle bushings... but the excess turning (L/R) continues...

I put temporary limiters on the spindle ears, but it seems to force the drag pivots...
m_20230613_154149.jpgm_20230613_154139.jpg

I think it's better to put it on the sector plate support... what do you think?
1686684033140.png


#32

B

bertsmobile1

Yep put them on the fan gear .
The whole tight turn was a bad idea from day one , causes a lot of steering problems which pushes more towards ZTR's the very thing it was introduced to counter .


#33

B

Bange

I don't understand fan gear?!?!
Are you against the location I chose or the idea of limiting the curve?


#34

B

bertsmobile1

Fan gear, steering rack call it what you like and do it who you like but yes limit it's travel


#35

K

kjonxx

I believe
Bange said:
I ended up taking advantage of that hole in the plate sector.
I made a bushing, crossed by a screw plus a wide washer and another pressure washer.
View attachment 65025View attachment 65026
Now the plate sector doesn't wobble and there's only looseness between the gears... it's excellent.

However, when I align the sector plate, the wheels are slightly to the left, as is the steering wheel.
View attachment 65030View attachment 65029

I'll have to change the geometry of the Spindle Asm. RH/LH).
Click to expand...
I thought or believe that the hole in the center is for centering the sector when putting pinion gear on steering shaft. This picture with bolt will not allow it to move. Am i wrong?


#36

F

Freddie21

To align the steering straight. Remove the pinion gear from the bottom of the steering shaft, mark the ceter tooth of the large gear , place the steering wheel straight and while keeping this all in position put the pinion gear back on.


#37

G

Gord Baker

Rivets said:
Nothing goes in that hole. You need to adjust both tie rods, as I’ll bet your wheel have major toe out. Also check to make sure the sector plate bushing and steering shaft bushings are is in good condition. If they are worn or the teeth are worn the gears will jump.
Click to expand...
There is often a Shoulder Bolt there that supports the rack and slides in that slot.


#38

G

Gord Baker

Gord Baker said:
There is often a Shoulder Bolt there that supports the rack and slides in that slot. See JD schematic drawing above.
Click to expand...


#39

B

Bange

Exactly...JD was my inspiration.... 👍


#40

B

Bange

Today I completed the steering wheel rotation limitation... it is stopping with +- 1/4 of a turn before the previous end... in the sector plate 4 teeth before the end.
m_20230625_115700.jpgm_20230625_115632.jpg

It worked very well... it's not forcing the draglink pivots, because the limit is now in the plate sector itself.

I also made some adjustments to the cradle of the Axle Asm.(Front) eliminating gaps caused by some previous crash.
Ajuste na suspensão dianteira.jpg


#41

B

Bange

There is a little play on the axles of the wheels, I saw some replacing the bushings with ball bearings... would anyone know how to tell me the number of such a bearing?


#42

StarTech

StarTech

IF you are referring to Hus 532009040 wheel then yes there are several bearing options. Some are flange bushings and some are flange ball versions. There is even a roller bearing on the following list. They are for the 3/4 spindle and a wheel hub that is 1-3/8". You have google each part number to see which you are interested in.
1687728094501.png


#43

G

Gord Baker

Bange said:
There is a little play on the axles of the wheels, I saw some replacing the bushings with ball bearings... would anyone know how to tell me the number of such a bearing?
Click to expand...
Your Rack is badly worn (sharp teeth) and you likely also need a new Sector Gear and Bushing.


#44

B

Bange

StarTech​

Show! But in the video I saw, it wasn't a replacement kit... it was common bearings, which are much cheaper around here.
m_rolamento comum.jpg
I'll take the measurements and see if there is direct replacement or needs adaptation.

As for the needle axials, I have a doubt if they are efficient for a long time, because as they are open (without any protection against dirt), they should damage in a short time.
m_rolamento axial de agulha.jpg


#45

B

Bange

Gord Baker said:
Your Rack is badly worn (sharp teeth) and you likely also need a new Sector Gear and Bushing.
Click to expand...
I agree, but since it is not jumping and the gap is still acceptable, the exchange will be for later.
The most important thing for the moment was to give a lot of stability to the plate sector, which was rocking... with the screw I put in, it was very firm.
1687784278705.png


#46

StarTech

StarTech

Bange said:

StarTech​

Show! But in the video I saw, it wasn't a replacement kit... it was common bearings, which are much cheaper around here.
View attachment 65393
I'll take the measurements and see if there is direct replacement or needs adaptation.

As for the needle axials, I have a doubt if they are efficient for a long time, because as they are open (without any protection against dirt), they should damage in a short time.
View attachment 65394
Click to expand...
Those should be at least the snap ring version. But the closest metric snap ring bearing is too large. The flange ones are better design. The snag ring or flange keeps the bearings from slipping inside the rim mounting hole.


I use the XIKE version here which are about 4.87 each.

3/4 x 1-3/8 and 1/2 to 7/16 wide.
1687792704143.png

Attachments





#47

G

Gord Baker

Bange said:
I agree, but since it is not jumping and the gap is still acceptable, the exchange will be for later.
The most important thing for the moment was to give a lot of stability to the plate sector, which was rocking... with the screw I put in, it was very firm.
View attachment 65398
Click to expand...
I believe that Bolt should have always been there. A Shoulder type bolt on the ones I repaired.
Good photos. I believe those Torrington bearings for king pins would last a long time and even if dirty would assist steering.


#48

B

Bange

In the B&S/Murray diagram, the screw does not exist.
Maybe on other models...

1687800437216.png

I don't see how the Torringtons last long as they are open.
It is possible that in light use, like golf turf, they last a little longer.


#49

B

Bange

StarTech​

Yes, replacing it with an upgrade is the best indication, but this is another world...either they are not available or they are very expensive...I'll take advantage of the fact that I have my hand in the dough and measure it, because I'm not sure of the nothing originality in this tractor.


#50

G

Gord Baker

Bange said:
I agree, but since it is not jumping and the gap is still acceptable, the exchange will be for later.
The most important thing for the moment was to give a lot of stability to the plate sector, which was rocking... with the screw I put in, it was very firm.
View attachment 65398
Click to expand...
I believe that Bolt should have always been there. A Shoulder type bolt on the ones I repaired.
Good photos. I believe those Torrington bearings would last a long time and even if dirty would assist steering.


#51

G

Gord Baker

The Shoulder Bolt that helps secure the Rack is on JD models.


#52

B

Bange

StarTech​

Your measurements are correct (3/4 x 1-3/8) and there are no common bearings with such measurements... not even in the metric world.
A possible solution is bearing 6003 (17 x 35 x 10mm), but you have to rough 2.05mm on the axle, place a shim on the side of the wheel, change the "C" clamp and make a spacer between the inner and outer bearing.
The most difficult thing is to rough 2.05mm on the axis that has a curve.
This metric bearing costs USD 20.00 with 10 units here.

If I buy this XIKE, 4 units costs USD 13.99 + 21.87 (shipping) + taxes in my country and it still takes 27 business days (by ebay). :mad:
Order Summary by Amazon: $11.99 + Shipping and Handling: $16.68 + Deposit for import fees:: US$ 27.09
Order total: $55.76
In the end, each bearing costs US$13.94. :mad:


#53

B

Bange

Does anyone know what material the bushing #74 (Bearing Col Strg.) is made of?
I found a world manufacturer of bushings and the advertisement seems to be a good thing... do you know?
www.igus.com

Plain plastic bearings

iglide® Plain Bearings Made From Self-Lubricating Plastic
www.igus.com


#54

StarTech

StarTech

For those Briggs PN 709294 use Husqvarna PN 532003366 which are the same plastic bearings.
1688471510421.png
1688471581835.png
Or can use some the after market ones that are out there.

Now the website you post they would be
1688471824748.png


#55

StarTech

StarTech

Also here is a couple other aftermarkets.

Rotary 8745 KING PIN BUSHING 3/4 X 53/64 AYP

Stens 225-700

1688473058307.png


#56

B

Bange

Good information and with measurements...👍
But in terms of material... the manufacturer Igus reports dry working and dirt resistant... looks good as it would eliminate the need for grease.
Since Murray, Husqvarna, etc... originally use grease, it looks like the original stuff is not as high quality.
Has anyone used or uses this one from Igus?


#57

G

Gord Baker

I hope no one is 'over-thinking' this.... The Bronze Oil-lite ™ bushings work well in all applications and are easily replaced and cost effective.


#58

StarTech

StarTech

I don't there enough material to resize for the oil-lites We are talking about 1/16 clearance here. I don't the oil-lite can be machined that thin with them cracking.

For the Igus, if I was to use them I would still grease them. at least it wouldn't hurt. But since the replacements here are under $2 each it is simpler to just use them.

Now this was a cast iron axle then putting the oil-lites works but is a pain the ream out the axle holes.


#59

B

Bange

That's what I thought about the thickness...
This is the material used in the bushings for the front wheels... at least OREGON claims.


#60

B

Bange

I'm in contact with the representative here, in fact the indication is the M250, code MYI-12-12.
Depending on the price, I already order...


#61

B

Bange

And speaking of bushings... I'm finishing replacing the steering shaft's upper bushing with a bearing...
1688484012555.png


#62

StarTech

StarTech

Now just how you get be in a fix position? So far in 14 yrs I have only replaced two of those bushings. I have had more problems with the bottom end of the shaft.

Briggs 708257 > Husqvarna 532195228.

Probably a lot of trouble to replace a $2 bushing, $4 US Retail.


#63

B

Bange

I don't know the past beyond 2 years, when I bought it, and I noticed a very annoying gap, which I decided to eliminate now... and with materials that I have available or recycled... zero gap, zero cost... for 50 years ahead.

m_20230702_115146.jpgm_20230702_111038.jpgm_20230702_111506.jpgm_20230702_120510.jpgm_20230702_131939.jpgm_20230702_132055.jpgm_20230702_151854.jpgm_20230702_165155.jpgm_20230702_165251.jpg


#64

B

Bange

continuing...
m_20230702_171349.jpgm_20230702_182145.jpgm_20230702_185244.jpgm_20230702_185253.jpgm_20230703_123352.jpgm_20230703_182228.jpgm_20230704_135949.jpg


#65

B

Bange

Another stage almost completed...


m_20230710_142148.jpgm_20230710_223123.jpgm_20230711_121626.jpgm_20230711_183705.jpgm_20230711_183658.jpg

But there's still a problem... it looks like this piece (#2) is crooked.
I'll take it out tomorrow and check it out...
1689118266575.png


#66

B

bertsmobile1

Very rarely happens but part # 67 wear grooves in the and even the hole they sit in can get flogged out oval
The two plates which sandwich # 2 need to be adjusted so # 2 can pivot around the bushes # 67 but not rock as per your diagram or roll as this changes the steering geometry drastically .
The bushes # 67 are supposed to be oiled daily but most are never ever touched
This will be a hell of a good mower by the time you have finished I admire you perseverance


#67

F

Forest#2

Yes, the sector gear to the fan gear is a wimpy area on lots of the lawn tractors and I've seen several that Bubba and jethro put in the WRONG SIZE plastic bushing. (and them plastic Chima bushings are a jaw dropper at their prices.


#68

B

Bange

bertsmobile1 said:
Very rarely happens but part # 67 wear grooves in the and even the hole they sit in can get flogged out oval
The two plates which sandwich # 2 need to be adjusted so # 2 can pivot around the bushes # 67 but not rock as per your diagram or roll as this changes the steering geometry drastically .
The bushes # 67 are supposed to be oiled daily but most are never ever touched
This will be a hell of a good mower by the time you have finished I admire you perseverance
Click to expand...
The balance movement is normal... there is a gap that I also consider normal... the problem is that stopped on the plane I can observe that the vertical axes of the wheels point slightly in opposite directions (front/rear), which leaves the wheels looking drunk.

I like mechanics, I have many tools and I see this as a hobby... but I don't know anyone who has this or any other similar machine to be able to compare or even talk about, I'm going by my logic... sometimes it works and other times I have to go back a step, but I hope that later on I will reap better results.


#69

B

bertsmobile1

Pull # 2 out and check the bushes and the hole they run in
One of the two plates that # 2 sits between will have slots for the purpose of adjustment
Usually it is the front one
When you turn there isa very high bending moment at the pivot


#70

B

Bange

Forest#2 said:
Yes, the sector gear to the fan gear is a wimpy area on lots of the lawn tractors and I've seen several that Bubba and jethro put in the WRONG SIZE plastic bushing. (and them plastic Chima bushings are a jaw dropper at their prices.
Click to expand...
I don't know if I understood what you wrote correctly, but the industry strives to do things to hold you to them and I don't like that... often there's no way.


#71

B

Bange

bertsmobile1 said:
Pull # 2 out and check the bushes and the hole they run in
One of the two plates that # 2 sits between will have slots for the purpose of adjustment
Usually it is the front one
When you turn there isa very high bending moment at the pivot
Click to expand...
I already did that a few days ago... there was a lot of looseness and I corrected it a little, but I think it's acceptable due to the age of the machine, but now I'm going to remove and analyze the geometry of the tubes... or they welded crooked (not likely) or it was a heavy blow.
Review the ugly weld in post #19... break this rod, just with a very strong blow (my suspicion).


#72

B

Bange

The bushings are reasonably good, but there is a gap of +- 2mm in the bushings in relation to #2 in the longitudinal direction... grinding the smaller diameter side of one of the bushings it disappears, but there are strange wear marks for normal use.
1689185403254.pngm_20230712_140524(1).jpgm_20230712_140448(1).jpg
Bertsmobile1 said that " The bushes # 67 are supposed to be oiled daily but most are never ever touched ".
There is no way to do this without removing the part from its place, there is no grease nipple or any other facility.

Well, it turns out that the play has a twist.
I don't know how to fix this without some control.
After cleaning the piece, I found a micro crack, which is another sign that there was a blow.

m_20230712_125144.jpg

m_Sem título.jpg
This part is ok...

This is the twist I was referring to...


#73

B

Bange

I managed to get it right without too much trouble... all I had to do was use the larger vise from a friend's auto shop.



#74

F

Forest#2

I really like to make them bend adjustments on Bro In Laws equipment. (just kidding)
I've got a big stout 8 inch vise with a base set in concrete and a big oxy/acet torch I can easily bend railroad iron if needed.

You might want to get into doing wheel alignments for lawn tractors.


#75

B

Bange

My vise is small and my bench is very weak... but I didn't use heat to straighten it out... it was on the arm itself and a good iron tube.
This piece is common iron, stamped in two halves and soldered, not very hard.
I redone a weld that broke and fixed the other one that was already opening... in the end I reinforced all the welds.
Tomorrow I'll have to heat it up to unbend one of the draglinks, with the new articulated ends, one of them is very forced in its angular limit, but my torch is portable... it only bends toy train tracks...😏


#76

B

Bange

As I said yesterday, today I straightened a draglink in the heat and it was symmetrical in relation to the other.
A negative point was that I cut the welded screws wrong (short) and had to weld others, which were aesthetically even better than the previous ones.
Another negative point is that the articulated terminals connected to the wheels will be upside down in relation to the diagram, as they are high and hit the chassis, depending on the inclination of the front axle... it was not pretty, but it was functional and without colliding with anything.
I could even bend the wheel axle ear more, but I preferred to invert the terminal.

m_20230714_093859.jpgm_20230714_224559.jpgm_20230714_224538.jpg
Now it's much easier to adjust the alignment... the gap in the set was only in the gearing of the steering wheel shaft with the sector plate, a little thing.


#77

B

Bange

And now the closing with a golden key, using the last word in direction alignment.
m_20230715_121435.jpgm_20230715_121456.jpg


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