12HP vertical shaft engine identification

[Fabian]

Hello gents

This thread follows on from my previous thread of installing a 12HP vertical shaft engine on a Rover smasher/mulcher.
I have bought 2 x 12HP engines for the installation, and only one 12HP engine has an identical oil filler hole location to the 8HP engine previously used. Please see the first few seconds of the video to see the sump oil fill hole footprint as on the 8HP engine: https://youtu.be/NydYycFfRRE

and a photo as shown here:



The other "running" 12HP engine has an oil filler hole which uses a cast extension, protruding away from the bolt hole pattern, as in this photo: which does not allow me to fit the chute on the mulcher. If i were to use this engine, i would have to remove the sump from the other (non running) engine and install it on the running engine.
Unfortunately the non-running engine did not come with an air cooling cowl, intake system and throttle linkage and governor plate assembly, and i cannot find any engine numbers on the block to identify the engine, which happens to be in very good mechanical condition; like brand new inside.

How do i identify the model number of the non-running engine if not having the air cooling cowl, as i want to rebuild it, using the appropriate rebuilt kit.
How do i identify what kind of 12HP sump (oil pan) is fitted to the non-running engine?

I'm thinking that the build date of the non running engine must be circa 1990.

 

[dana a]

If this is the machine you have, click this link: http://www.rover.com.au/Products/Clean-Up/ChipperShreddersMulchers you'll see it lists 2 models. Click on your model and you can find manuals. They have manuals for older machines.

 

[Fabian]

There are no manuals available, as i have modified to the mulcher to fit a 12HP engine. The standard engine is 5HP
The installed 8HP engine was already a non-standard power upgrade. The 12HP upgrade will be unstoppable.

 

[dana a]

Why don't you just swap sumps. If they are the same other than the oil hole you'd have no cost.

 

[bertsmobile1]

Remove the grommet and fit a short dipstick.
Then engine number should be stamped into the cowel directly above the spark plug.
If you don't have the cowel how do you start the engine ?
And if you do start it then it will overheat without the cowel in no time flat.
The first images is a 250000 series side valve engine
The second image is the 280000 series which came both ways
The 2 sumps are not interchangable, the bolt pattern is different .
Also you vary the number & thickness of the sump gaskets to set the crankshaft end float.
The rebuild kit is 393411 last time I ordered one.
You can double check this information ( I do make mistakes ) by going to the service manual and checking the sump bolt tightening sequence.
The first sump has 6 bolts an the second has 10

 

[bertsmobile1]

And I have a bad feeling that you will be bitterly dissapointed by the new engine.
It will not be unstopable .
The energy the shredder has to cut with is supplied by the momentum of the blades spinning.
The engine maintains this momentum.
It will spin at exactly the same speed and it won't cut any thing much thicker than the original engine did.
What will happen is it will recover faster so you will be able to feed material a little faster.
However there is no provision for overload protection so there is a very good chance of breaking a crank.
I use the Rover for light shredding and the bigger Granberg for heavy material.
It has a 9Hp vanguard and will cut 3" thick branches down the slicer but only 3/4" down the chute.
Any heavier than this and the belts slip.

I you are tossing a lot of stuff like monsterios or bannanas it will work well but if you start tossing thick ironbark down there it will jamb.

 

[dana a]

Remove the grommet and fit a short dipstick.
Then engine number should be stamped into the cowel directly above the spark plug.
If you don't have the cowel how do you start the engine ?
And if you do start it then it will overheat without the cowel in no time flat.
The first images is a 250000 series side valve engine
The second image is the 280000 series which came both ways
The 2 sumps are not interchangable, the bolt pattern is different .
Also you vary the number & thickness of the sump gaskets to set the crankshaft end float.
The rebuild kit is 393411 last time I ordered one.
You can double check this information ( I do make mistakes ) by going to the service manual and checking the sump bolt tightening sequence.
The first sump has 6 bolts an the second has 10

WOW Bert, I didn't notice the sumps had different amounts of bolt holes. You said to fit a short dipstick. Does Briggs make a short dipstick or would he have to make one out of the original long tube?

Dana

 

[bertsmobile1]

They are used on stationary engines and push mowers.
All the same size & thread as far as I know.
Put the old dip stick tube in an mark the oil level on the outside of the sump.
Usually it is the joint level then make sure you mark the new dip stick the same.
A lot of push engines have no dip stick at all, just a fill /drain hole.

 

[Fabian]

The 8HP engine made a significant improvement in cutting power. I could mulch twice as much garden material, and i was throwing some impossibly large things down the chute when holding the governor wide open and letting it over rev for short bursts.
The 12HP will be a further imporovement, and based on the difference between 5HP and 8HP engines, the 12HP will be unstoppable.

I can interchange the sumps, but the running engine has a non pull-start crankshaft, so i would have to swap over crankshafts.
It's going to be easier to rebuild the non-running engines, as it uses a 6 bolt sump with the oil filler hole location that's in an identical position to the 8HP engine.
The running engine also has a 6 bolt sump.

I will need to swap over the engine cowl from the running engine to the non-running engine to complete the conversion, but i need to know the engine number of the non-running engine to be able to order the proper rebuild kit.
Unfortunately the lawn mower shops in my area say it's impossible to identify the engine if you do not have the engine number, and non of them have been able to look at the disassembled parts and identify the engine or the possible engine number.
They have all said: you need to find the engine cowl, but with no engine cowl, how can you identify the engine?

 

[bertsmobile1]

Not impossible to do but lots of non chargable hours.
Too many for me on a free forum.
If you have a real independant mower repair shop go there , explain what you are trying to do.
Take the case, carb and crank with you.
A mechanic over 50 who has been playing with B & S engines for a long time should be able to sort it out, provided you buy the parts from him.
Good chance he will have more than enough old donor engines lying around to supply you with all the parts you need.
Try to go there Tuesday to Thursday so you are not preventing him making money while sorting you out.
Most drink a beer or two so sling him the cost of a schooner or two and you will have a friend for life.
It is not the actual money but the fact that you are offering an appreciation for the help he is giving you.
I do silly things like this all the time , mower for the kids to play on, mower to take the bins to the gate all sorts of sillyness.
Those who sling me a couple of bucks are welcomed back and those who don't offer get told "nothing that will work for you " next time they come around.