Cub Cadet XT2 / John Deere X350

dmenn said:

rlpickering13 - Sorry I hijacked your thread about K46 transmissions. When I was considering a lawn tractor, the X350 was at the top. Real nice machine!

Cruzenmike - Thanks for the clarification on the K46's. However, I don't understand why you would say the JD K46 is better than the CC K46. While they may have minor differences like you said, they all have the same gear internals. Per the web-site, the K46 transmission is "Heat-treated Powder Metal" for gears.

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Because everything John Deere is better; duh!

Really I don't know. If it is in fact just the increased torque, then yes, it is better.

Sorry, as a "newbie" (was accused of that...) I think JD is a great choice. However... if I were to shop for something in that price range, I'd be asking questions like these:

- Who really makes the machine (aside from the logo decal on it)?
- Engine design: Does it have "good" bearings on the PTO side? I like to talk to mechs as well, like what do they think the MTBF is, have they had to adjust valve clearances, etc?
- Frame gauge? I'd also look at things like how the transaxle is attached to the frame.
- Deck guage?
- Grease fittings - how many and where?
- Steering gear... really, I would crawl under the machine, eyeball the build.
- Front wheel bearings / grease fittings?
- Of course the tranny brand / model
- Google reviews of the dealer.
- Test drive, looking for handling, ride quality, ergonomics, seat quality, and why are we buying a mower?? Cut quality.
- I'd be interested in center of gravity - but this is hard to spec out, but you can measure engine height on frame, track width of both axles.

And above and beyond, I like to rap with the dealer guy, like if he's been to the factory, seen production, knows where they source the steel, how many coats of paint, who's using these (customers with huge lawns), etc. If you buy from a servicing dealer, they typically are going to be concerned about YOU. Whereas if you buy from a big box store, you only have this forum from which to make your decision>

Again, just IMO -- remember, I'm a newbie here...

From the top.
JD will be made by JD or by Honda. The Cub is made by Cub which is owned by MTD so it shares a lot of parts with other MTD's
Only Horizontal shaft engines have bearings which is one reason why they cost twice as much and last 10 times longer.
Frame gauge is generally in the spec sheets somewhere but thickness is only 1/4 of the story, there are a lot of grades of steel.
Same story for deck gauge
Grease fitting or the lack there of is subject to EPA regulations. No zerks on Californian mowers.
Do you have any idea about the engineering of steering gear, very few have but real adjustable tie rod ends are good to have.
Most use the same front wheels.
Trannies are made to the specs of the mower factory
Very few people will bother to write a good review and for a handfull of rupees I can get 500 glowing reviews using stolen ids. Bad reviews always have to be read carefully firstly for the same reason as good ones and secondly there are a lot of cheapskate morons out there
Test drives are good, but only if they can be done on your property.
COG is always a problem with mowers but not as important as wheel load.

The only honest opinion you will get comes from people like me who are independent repair technicians.
I get under a mower & look at the bearing surfaces. Are there bushes everywhere that a shaft passes through a plate.
I see a lot of mowers where the deck is on the ground at 1/2 full height after a few years requiring the replacement of the entire deck lift mechanism.
Does the deck have adjustments both sides & at the front.
Read the owners manual maintenance section and ask the parts department how much the actual service parts cost
Ask the service department about alternative blades, high lift & low lift.
look at the thickness of the blades thin narrow blades will need to be replaced every season

Cool, yeah got it! Correct on the techs... I have several friends who do small equip work for a living... But of course everybody has their opinion (and so do I!)

Dunno what's out there for vert shaft stuff. I did have a B&S Vanguard twin that, according to the manual, had roller bearings on the PTO end. Back in the day you would see sleeve bearings get out of round a little but as long as the oil seal remained intact, never worried too much about it, same with cf end-play. I mean these were engines that had hours on them so no worries...

I've always enjoyed this stuff.. I've been looking around a little and IMO it seems you've got to spend around $4k or so to get into something a little closer to "commerical grade," I mean with nice 10ga or better, or fabricated decks, etc. Dunno again about engines these days as B&S ditched their Vanguard series for who knows how long the current cast-sleeve ones will last. I've seen the Vanguards go thousands of hours, running full synth oil and "real" gas, if you know what I mean

zadok said:

Cool, yeah got it! Correct on the techs... I have several friends who do small equip work for a living... But of course everybody has their opinion (and so do I!)

Dunno what's out there for vert shaft stuff. I did have a B&S Vanguard twin that, according to the manual, had roller bearings on the PTO end. Back in the day you would see sleeve bearings get out of round a little but as long as the oil seal remained intact, never worried too much about it, same with cf end-play. I mean these were engines that had hours on them so no worries...

I've always enjoyed this stuff.. I've been looking around a little and IMO it seems you've got to spend around $4k or so to get into something a little closer to "commerical grade," I mean with nice 10ga or better, or fabricated decks, etc. Dunno again about engines these days as B&S ditched their Vanguard series for who knows how long the current cast-sleeve ones will last. I've seen the Vanguards go thousands of hours, running full synth oil and "real" gas, if you know what I mean

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Briggs did not ditch the Vanguard engines. They are moving production from Japan to the United States this year. The Japanese made Vanguards I read were manufactured by Daihatsu which may be owned by Toyota. It would be no surprise as to why they may be so reliable. 12 years and 550 hours on mine and it is purring like a kitten!

The issue with these engines is that there simply isn't anyone testing each engine on a bench under the most rigorous of conditions and doing so without a bit of bias. if someone were to grab let's say a handful of each make of engine, Kawasaki Briggs Kohler and throw them onto a bench and then test each one for up to a thousand hours under full load and then letting the load go and then with or without oil changes being done and then getting them up to full temperature or sometimes low temperature/high temperature intermittently and then being able to see which one either has the most internal wear or which one fails first might give us some idea as to which of these engines is actually the most durable or most reliable. But at the end of the day all that we can go by is the experiences of those who share them and since each person uses and cares for their equipment in different ways not one person's experience is going to be the same as another. My Grandfather had three Toyota cars that all got over 240,000 miles without any type of major engine malfunctions. In fact he actually had one car, a 1984 Toyota Supra that had over 330,000 miles on it and all it ever need replacing was a water pump and the normal wearable items. So, was it Toyota that made good engines or was it my Grandfather that just took really good care of them?

The problem is strait out greed.
Everything that i want has to get cheaper every year so I can afford it as well as the month long holiday in Florida and the 4 investment condos in New York.
So everything gets cheaper every year, in more ways than the price tag.
So bearings which have to be bought in so get paid for months before the mower is sold get abandoned in favour of casting the boss inside the engine 1/2" longer and the crank runs strait on the cases.

Right down to sealing the rocker covers with silastic which saves about 50¢ a mower but adds 1/2 hour to the service to clean all of it off.
The in warranty service fees have not gone up so dealers no longer check the valve lash

cruzenmike said:

Briggs did not ditch the Vanguard engines. They are moving production from Japan to the United States this year. The Japanese made Vanguards I read were manufactured by Daihatsu which may be owned by Toyota. It would be no surprise as to why they may be so reliable. 12 years and 550 hours on mine and it is purring like a kitten!

The issue with these engines is that there simply isn't anyone testing each engine on a bench under the most rigorous of conditions and doing so without a bit of bias. if someone were to grab let's say a handful of each make of engine, Kawasaki Briggs Kohler and throw them onto a bench and then test each one for up to a thousand hours under full load and then letting the load go and then with or without oil changes being done and then getting them up to full temperature or sometimes low temperature/high temperature intermittently and then being able to see which one either has the most internal wear or which one fails first might give us some idea as to which of these engines is actually the most durable or most reliable. But at the end of the day all that we can go by is the experiences of those who share them and since each person uses and cares for their equipment in different ways not one person's experience is going to be the same as another. My Grandfather had three Toyota cars that all got over 240,000 miles without any type of major engine malfunctions. In fact he actually had one car, a 1984 Toyota Supra that had over 330,000 miles on it and all it ever need replacing was a water pump and the normal wearable items. So, was it Toyota that made good engines or was it my Grandfather that just took really good care of them?

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Awesome! I'm glad someone actually said this. I did not know about the Japanese production.. Yes, with dyno testing, oil consumption, all of it... The thing is, and you know this, any of these guys are capable of making an engine that will go 2-4k hours. How long do these things go on commercial rigs, with good maintenance? Just curious; never asked any of the techs I know...