Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues

[gretschdrum]

Hi Folks,

I have a 2009 Honda HRR2166VKA mower that was purchased new from Home Depot. I've had issues with this mower since I first purchased it. I really wish I had taken it back upon first use. I'm at my wits end and I'm hoping I can get some advice on what to do next.

The first time I used the mower (5 years ago) I had intermittent back firing but it started and ran fine. About 2 seasons into using the machine it wouldn't start. I did my own troubleshooting and couldn't repair it so I took it to the authorized service center. They disassembled the carburetor, cleaned it and said it was fixed. The next season I had problems starting the mower and issues with it dying while it was running. The primary symptoms are upon starting it runs extremely slow and sluggish. Eventually it will pick up to normal idle speed but after a certain amount of time it runs sluggish and dies. I have to let the mower sit for about 30 minutes and I can generally get it to start again. Finally last summer the problems were so bad that I took it to the service center and had the carb cleaned again. It worked for a short period but ultimately the same sluggish symptoms returned and I replaced the carburetor a couple weeks ago.

So now, fast forward to the present. Upon replacing the carburetor and gaskets the mower starts perfectly but runs at an extremely fast idle for about 60 to 90 seconds before slowing down to a normal idle speed. Aside from the initial high idle, the mower worked perfectly the first 2 times with the new carb. However, today about 20 minutes into mowing (with this brand new carb having about 2 hours of mowing time on it) the engine started to become sluggish and died. I tried several times to start the mower but it would either run for 2 seconds (slow and sluggish) and stop or not start at all. I left it alone for 20-30 minutes and sure enough it started fine, idled normally, and I was able to mow for another 45 minutes. I was able to shut the mower down normally with no other incidents.

You should know that I regularly replace the spark plug, air filter and sharpen the blade. The mower had the oil changed last year. I also run all fuel out of the machine at the end of the season along with using Sea Foam motor treatment in my fuel (as a stabilizer). With that in mind I only run name brand, premium gas as well. I am not sure of anything else I can do, maintenance wise, to ensure that this Honda will perform better.

Does anyone have any ideas or adjustments that I could make to save this mower? I'm very close to buying either a Toro or Husqvarna but would like to try and fix the Honda since I have a decent amount of money already invested in it.

 

[robert@honda]

With a new spark plug and new air filter, it sure sounds like a fuel delivery issue, or at least a fuel/air mixture problem. When the mower starts running poorly or dies, double-check for good spark.

The AutoChoke on these mowers uses a spring and expanding wax cylinder to close and open the choke plate. The spring holds it closed when the engine is cold, and as it heats up, wax inside a small cylinder expands, pushing a small rod that forces the choke open. The expansion of the wax is stronger than the spring tension. Sometimes the linkage can bind or is blocked by debris or clippings...

I'd inspect and test the Autochoke and confirm it is working properly, not binding and fully opening / closing the choke plate. Be aware that shutting off the engine before it is fully warmed up can be hard to do with the Autochoke, as it may not get hot enough to force the choke open, and this would make the engine run rich or not run at all. Here's how to test it:

Are you sure you got the correct carburetor when you replaced it? Got all the governor linkage back in the right place? Air Guide and gasket positions correct?

Inspect the gaskets, and ensure the two long bolts holding on the carburetor and air cleaner are secure.

 

[gretschdrum]

With a new spark plug and new air filter, it sure sounds like a fuel delivery issue, or at least a fuel/air mixture problem. When the mower starts running poorly or dies, double-check for good spark.

The AutoChoke on these mowers uses a spring and expanding wax cylinder to close and open the choke plate. The spring holds it closed when the engine is cold, and as it heats up, wax inside a small cylinder expands, pushing a small rod that forces the choke open. The expansion of the wax is stronger than the spring tension. Sometimes the linkage can bind or is blocked by debris or clippings...

I'd inspect and test the Autochoke and confirm it is working properly, not binding and fully opening / closing the choke plate. Be aware that shutting off the engine before it is fully warmed up can be hard to do with the Autochoke, as it may not get hot enough to force the choke open, and this would make the engine run rich or not run at all. Here's how to test it:

After looking at the pdf. and running the test it certainly seemed like the autochoke WAS binding and not moving freely. I cleaned the entire autochoke apparatus with a brush and compressed air. There was a rather large amount of debris buildup in several places that may not have allowed free movement all the time. After cleaning, the mower started better and did not run at the super high idle mentioned in the original post. Instead it ran at its normal, smooth idle. I allowed it to run for a few minutes but did not mow. So far, this is the best start and idle in over a year.


Are you sure you got the correct carburetor when you replaced it? Got all the governor linkage back in the right place? Air Guide and gasket positions correct?

I am sure I bought the right carb assembly. A really nice guy at "click and save" (in Utah) had me send him the model, serial number, and engine serial number. He then double checked everything and shipped the new carb and gaskets. I did indeed check the installation and it is correct and all bolts are tight.

Inspect the gaskets, and ensure the two long bolts holding on the carburetor and air cleaner are secure.

Thanks Robert! I'll update next week after a proper mowing!

 

[gretschdrum]

Hey Robert,

I wanted to give an update on the repairs I made from the suggestions in your post. After thoroughly inspecting and cleaning/adjusting the autochoke system I mowed for approximately 25 minutes today. Everything worked perfectly. In fact, it's easily the best the mower has run in a couple years. Thanks so much for you help!

With a new spark plug and new air filter, it sure sounds like a fuel delivery issue, or at least a fuel/air mixture problem. When the mower starts running poorly or dies, double-check for good spark.

The AutoChoke on these mowers uses a spring and expanding wax cylinder to close and open the choke plate. The spring holds it closed when the engine is cold, and as it heats up, wax inside a small cylinder expands, pushing a small rod that forces the choke open. The expansion of the wax is stronger than the spring tension. Sometimes the linkage can bind or is blocked by debris or clippings...

I'd inspect and test the Autochoke and confirm it is working properly, not binding and fully opening / closing the choke plate. Be aware that shutting off the engine before it is fully warmed up can be hard to do with the Autochoke, as it may not get hot enough to force the choke open, and this would make the engine run rich or not run at all. Here's how to test it:

Are you sure you got the correct carburetor when you replaced it? Got all the governor linkage back in the right place? Air Guide and gasket positions correct?

Inspect the gaskets, and ensure the two long bolts holding on the carburetor and air cleaner are secure.

 

[robert@honda]

Hey Robert,
I wanted to give an update on the repairs I made from the suggestions in your post. After thoroughly inspecting and cleaning/adjusting the autochoke system I mowed for approximately 25 minutes today. Everything worked perfectly. In fact, it's easily the best the mower has run in a couple years. Thanks so much for you help!

Excellent. Thanks for the follow-up...a little cleaning and regular service can go a long way. Your VKA should last for a long time.

 

[gretschdrum]

Re: Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues UPDATED

Hi Robert,

Unfortunately this update is not good. After one short mowing session last week with great success I'm back to the same issues except now they seem to be even worse. I mowed for approximately 20 minutes yesterday and the mower had a discernible audible drop in idle. About 2 minutes later it died. Impossible to restart immediately. Upon pulling the cord it would very slowly try to turn over never reaching a full start. I left it alone for 30 minutes and it started again and ran well for another 30 to 40 minutes.

This morning I took the mower out, inspected the auto choke, cleaned all parts of the apparatus and lubed it. It moves freely and the plate on the carb (remember this a new carb) moves freely. I started the mower and it revved very hard for about 10 seconds then slowed to a perfect idle. I mowed for 5 minutes and the mower quickly died and now will not restart. I've left it alone for 30 minutes and it still will not start.

So, I'm pretty much down to a couple things according to the flow chart that you sent. Does this sound like a thermowax issue? Or could it possibly be using the hotter bpr5es spark plug that needs to be installed? Right now the shop that did the tune up last year used a '6'. That plug has less than 5 hours mowing time on it. I've removed it, inspected it, and to me it looks fine. It doesn't looked burned or fouled but I'm not sure. I've attached a close up photo for your inspection.

Thanks for viewing this forum, Robert. Your advice is very appreciated.

Phil

Excellent. Thanks for the follow-up...a little cleaning and regular service can go a long way. Your VKA should last for a long time.

 

[robert@honda]

Re: Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues UPDATED

Hi Robert,

Unfortunately this update is not good. After one short mowing session last week with great success I'm back to the same issues except now they seem to be even worse. I mowed for approximately 20 minutes yesterday and the mower had a discernible audible drop in idle. About 2 minutes later it died. Impossible to restart immediately.

Phil

The plug looks fine, Phil The new carb (probably) eliminates it specifically from a problem, but still may be fuel/choke related, especially with the changes due to engine temp.

But, just to be sure, first do a spark-check when the engine is in a no-start condition, and verify you are getting spark. Note: It's best to do this in a shaded outdoor area where you can see the spark clearly. Also, it is best to have a helper who can hold the flywheel brake lever down while the other person holds the spark plug...PLEASE be aware, whenever the pull-starter is operated on this model, the blades are spinning, so keep hands and feet clear.

If spark is good, then I'd bet it probably is something else going on with the autochoke. While your particular version (K6) of this model does not fit in the range of other versions with possible autochoke issues, it still may obviously have one. If you're able to get the mower started and fully warmed up (at least 5 minutes at FAST throttle), shut it down and remove the air filter cover and filter element. Look inside and see if you can tell if the choke plate is staying open or may be closed (even partially). This indicates there is still something going on with the autochoke, maybe the the mechanical linkage/control or the thermowax cylinder. FYI, the thermowax cylinder must have really good contact to the cylinder head for proper heat transfer and operation.

Now if the choke is fully open when the engine is warm, there is some other issue...without having eyes/ears/hands on it, hard for me to diagnose much further. May need to get it off to a Honda dealer for a full in-person evaluation and inspection.

See this posting for a few more details about the autochoke...this is for an HRX model, but the autochoke is identical...

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/honda-forum/24972-hrx217hya-new-carb-still-will-not-run.html#post157163

Finally, I'll ask our tech guys for any tips...stand by.

 

[gretschdrum]

Re: Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues UPDATED


Robert,

Thanks so much for the quick reply. Here's the latest.

I did the spark plug check, it's fine.

At this point the mower will not start at all. Fresh fuel, all aspects of the machine are according to specifications. When cold, choke plate is closed.

What now?!

If this machine goes back to the shop I will have taken it for the fourth time for the same issue. And it'll have to be a different part this time since everything they've 'fixed' before has been replaced. It'll also push my parts and repair bills over the cost of what I've paid for the machine and that doesn't include all the work I've done on it or all the hours I've spent researching and working on it. On top of that, I have only moderate expectations of it getting repaired correctly at the authorized centers.

I really hope some of your tech guys can help me further because I'm very, very close to calling it a day. FYI, I'm in Marietta and I absolutely will bring this machine to Alpharetta TOMORROW if you can do something with it. I'd rather take it to the source and let you guys tear it apart than the authorized service dealers around here.

Phil

The plug looks fine, Phil The new carb (probably) eliminates it specifically from a problem, but still may be fuel/choke related, especially with the changes due to engine temp.

But, just to be sure, first do a spark-check when the engine is in a no-start condition, and verify you are getting spark. Note: It's best to do this in a shaded outdoor area where you can see the spark clearly. Also, it is best to have a helper who can hold the flywheel brake lever down while the other person holds the spark plug...PLEASE be aware, whenever the pull-starter is operated on this model, the blades are spinning, so keep hands and feet clear.

If spark is good, then I'd bet it probably is something else going on with the autochoke. While your particular version (K6) of this model does not fit in the range of other versions with possible autochoke issues, it still may obviously have one. If you're able to get the mower started and fully warmed up (at least 5 minutes at FAST throttle), shut it down and remove the air filter cover and filter element. Look inside and see if you can tell if the choke plate is staying open or may be closed (even partially). This indicates there is still something going on with the autochoke, maybe the the mechanical linkage/control or the thermowax cylinder. FYI, the thermowax cylinder must have really good contact to the cylinder head for proper heat transfer and operation.

Now if the choke is fully open when the engine is warm, there is some other issue...without having eyes/ears/hands on it, hard for me to diagnose much further. May need to get it off to a Honda dealer for a full in-person evaluation and inspection.

See this posting for a few more details about the autochoke...this is for an HRX model, but the autochoke is identical...

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/honda-forum/24972-hrx217hya-new-carb-still-will-not-run.html#post157163

Finally, I'll ask our tech guys for any tips...stand by.

 

[robert@honda]

Re: Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues UPDATED

Robert,

Thanks so much for the quick reply. Here's the latest.

I did the spark plug check, it's fine.

At this point the mower will not start at all. Fresh fuel, all aspects of the machine are according to specifications. When cold, choke plate is closed.

What now?!

If this machine goes back to the shop I will have taken it for the fourth time for the same issue. And it'll have to be a different part this time since everything they've 'fixed' before has been replaced. It'll also push my parts and repair bills over the cost of what I've paid for the machine and that doesn't include all the work I've done on it or all the hours I've spent researching and working on it. On top of that, I have only moderate expectations of it getting repaired correctly at the authorized centers.

I really hope some of your tech guys can help me further because I'm very, very close to calling it a day. FYI, I'm in Marietta and I absolutely will bring this machine to Alpharetta TOMORROW if you can do something with it. I'd rather take it to the source and let you guys tear it apart than the authorized service dealers around here.

Phil

Sorry to read of the continuing problems, Phil. At this point, I'd suggest get some official help and contact Honda Customer Relations [ (770) 497-6400 ] to discuss the problems you've had getting the mower repaired correctly at the dealer. They have a number of ways to get it resolved, including discussing with the dealer's service department, having Honda's Techlline staff work on the problem with the dealer, directing you to another dealer, or getting the District Service Manager involved. At the office I'm at here in Alpharetta, we're just that, an office, and don't provide any repair services.

Please keep me posted on the progress.

 

[gretschdrum]

Re: Honda HRR2166VKA ongoing carb/auto choke/fuel issues UPDATED

Sorry to read of the continuing problems, Phil. At this point, I'd suggest get some official help and contact Honda Customer Relations [ (770) 497-6400 ] to discuss the problems you've had getting the mower repaired correctly at the dealer. They have a number of ways to get it resolved, including discussing with the dealer's service department, having Honda's Techlline staff work on the problem with the dealer, directing you to another dealer, or getting the District Service Manager involved. At the office I'm at here in Alpharetta, we're just that, an office, and don't provide any repair services.

Please keep me posted on the progress.

Hi Robert,

As usual, thanks so much for your reply and advice. It is much appreciated.

So here's the latest. I called customer relations and spoke to a very helpful guy name Lucas. I explained the issues and the amount of time and money this mower has consumed. I also mentioned your advice and helpfulness and recommendation to call. Ultimately it was decided that I take it to a Power Choice service center (in Roswell) since I've had continual issues with regular authorized service centers. Lucas asked me to call him once it was at the service center so that he could make notes and communicate with the service center. I have no idea how much of anything they'll cover. So, I called Lucas, but instead got a new fella named Caesar (again helpful), at Honda CS. Supposedly Honda and the service center will communicate between themselves from here on out.

Regardless, the folks at the service center in Roswell were VERY attentive and took copious notes all the way back to when I first started having this issue several years ago. There was no definitive diagnosis but both the thermowax and the auto choke were mentioned. I am looking at 7-10 days lag time.