Bad Boy ZT Elite vs. Gravely ZT HD

[djdicetn]

Yes, very good info presented above. I too understood the fr motors to be residential but Toro is pushing them as commercial going so far as to say they are backed by a 3-year commercial warranty!

I believe most engines(regardless of brand or usage rating) carry a 3 Year warranty(I could be wrong). I do know that for Kawasaki engines they warranty all of their engines for 3 Years. When you get into the "Commercial" lines for any brand engines you get upgraded components for more adverse mowing conditions(like the dual stage air filters). Most likely they have upgraded internal components as well that give better torque, reliability and performance under harsh conditions(like mowing 8-10 hours/day).
Toro should NOT be advertising the Kawa FR series as "Commercial". I have a 2012 Toro Titan brochure from when I was looking at them. They come standard with the FR and nowhere in the material do they mention "Commercial engines". Where are you getting that info(verbally, from the dealer)??? I haven't been to the Toro website in a while, so don't know what they may have there.

 

[NickTF]

I believe most engines(regardless of brand or usage rating) carry a 3 Year warranty(I could be wrong). I do know that for Kawasaki engines they warranty all of their engines for 3 Years. When you get into the "Commercial" lines for any brand engines you get upgraded components for more adverse mowing conditions(like the dual stage air filters). Most likely they have upgraded internal components as well that give better torque, reliability and performance under harsh conditions(like mowing 8-10 hours/day).
Toro should NOT be advertising the Kawa FR series as "Commercial". I have a 2012 Toro Titan brochure from when I was looking at them. They come standard with the FR and nowhere in the material do they mention "Commercial engines". Where are you getting that info(verbally, from the dealer)??? I haven't been to the Toro website in a while, so don't know what they may have there.

Right on their website. Go have a quick look. Trust me I went to Kawasakis page and saw the fr motors being advertised as residential so I am skeptical as you are!

 

[NickTF]

Can someone chime in on what the life expectancy of a Kawasaki FR or Kohler Pro 7000 motor would like like in comparison to that of a Kawasaki FS or Briggs and Straton Cyclonic motor? Considering moving up a bit in price and if hour expectancy is twice as much than I may consider the extra 700-800 to a CZT Elite, etc.

 

[djdicetn]

Right on their website. Go have a quick look. Trust me I went to Kawasakis page and saw the fr motors being advertised as residential so I am skeptical as you are!

Can't find anything on the Toro website(can you go to the webpage you saw that on and copy & paste the link here), but they may be regurgitating what I read on the kawpower.com website. On the "engine webpage" they "describe" the FR, FS & FX series as below:

FR - Commercial-grade power for heavy-duty residential use.

FS - Specifically engineered for demanding landscape work.

FX - Top of the line power and reliability for high-demand use.

Now if you click on the FR series it says: "For decades, professionals have known the value of having a Kawasaki engine in their equipment. Now homeowners can enjoy the same Kawasaki power in their mowers. Introducing the all-new FR Series engines featuring four-cycle V-twin powerplants which range in size from 18hp to 26hp. They deliver smooth power output, quieter operation, outstanding durability and compact design."

For the FS it says: "Kawasaki FS Series engines are engineered to be high powered but still environmentally friendly. They feature a compact, 90ｰ V-twin design with overhead V-valve, as well as an internally vented carburetor with a fuel shut-off solenoid. There is also a dual element air filter with a plastic blower housing that makes for quieter operation."

For the FX it says: "Kawasaki FX Series are compact, 90-degree V-twin engines which feature hemispherical combustion chambers and overhead V-valve technology that helps ensure low emissions, high power, and smooth operation. Other features include a twin barrel, internally vented carburetor with fuel shut-off solenoid, large capacity fuel pump, and dual stage canister air filter."

Soooooooo, based upon the verbiage used on the Kawasaki website you indeed could advertise the FR series as "commercial-grade" engines. Yet the details clearly state that the FR series was designed for homeowner use. It's all about how you interpret the information. To me(my personal opinion), I consider the FR series an appropriate engine for homeowners who mow 1-2 acres or less weekly, the FS series an appropriate engine for homeowners with 2-4 acres who mow weekly or a small lawn maintenance business that may average 2-4 hours of mowing daily and the FX series for the large lawn maintenance business that mows 8 or more hours daily. At least that's how I would choose if I fell into those owner categories. Of course that's not completely realistic since many, like myself, do not mow like a large lawn maintenance company(I am a homeowner who mows 1.5 acres weekly)....yet I bought a ZTR with a Kawasaki FX engine:0)

 

[djdicetn]

Can someone chime in on what the life expectancy of a Kawasaki FR or Kohler Pro 7000 motor would like like in comparison to that of a Kawasaki FS or Briggs and Straton Cyclonic motor? Considering moving up a bit in price and if hour expectancy is twice as much than I may consider the extra 700-800 to a CZT Elite, etc.

I looked on the Kawasaki website, but could not find any info about the life expectancy "hour ratings" for their FR, FS and FX engines. I know I've seen it somewhere but can't put my finger on it:0(
Maybe another user knows where that information is.....BTW I looked at the Kohler Pro 7000 on a Bad Boy at TSC and I was NOT impressed at the looks of it(appears kinda cheap, especially the valve covers). IMHO, you would be fine with the Kawa FR or FS engine as well as the Briggs Cyclonic(although I'm not too big on B & S after a bad experience with an Intek). All-in-all I think that most users on these forums will agree that the Kawasaki is currently the best performing, longest lasting 4-cycle small engine on the market.

 

[DSepe]

I looked on the Kawasaki website, but could not find any info about the life expectancy "hour ratings" for their FR, FS and FX engines. I know I've seen it somewhere but can't put my finger on it:0( Maybe another user knows where that information is.....BTW I looked at the Kohler Pro 7000 on a Bad Boy at TSC and I was NOT impressed at the looks of it(appears kinda cheap, especially the valve covers). IMHO, you would be fine with the Kawa FR or FS engine as well as the Briggs Cyclonic(although I'm not too big on B & S after a bad experience with an Intek). All-in-all I think that most users on these forums will agree that the Kawasaki is currently the best performing, longest lasting 4-cycle small engine on the market.

On my actual Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rates it at 500 hours. I've heard that's just put on for EPA standards sake because it will likely fall out of standards over time. I could be wrong because I read that EPA thing on this site from another user.

 

[NickTF]

Boy, a few days go by and next thing you know I've changed my mind all together!

Here are my final contenders:
Toro Z Master 2000 - 20.5 HP FX Kawasaki, 3400 drives, 8.5 mph, 48" turbo force deck, heavy duty non serviceable spindles (confused not sure if iron or aluminum), 926 lbs
Warranty:
Z Masterï½® 2000 Series Mowers 4 years or 500 hours2
é«*ngines4 3 years
彦rame Lifetime (original owner only)3

Snapper Pro SX125xt - 25HP Briggs Commercial Turf Cyclonic, 3400 drives, 10 mph, 52" ICD deck, cast aluminum greasable spindles, 1059lbs
Warranty:
4-Year (48 months) or 500 hours, whichever occurs first. Unlimited hours during the first 2 years (24 months). Belts, tires, brake pads, hoses, battery, blades: 90 days
Engine: 3 years manufacturer (including Briggs)

The Snapper Pro is $5799 with the Briggs, $5999 with the Kawasaki FS and I'm not certain the FS is any better than the Commercial Turf Briggs. I can grab the Toro for the same price.

The Snapper will be able to get the task done quicker. Anything else to consider, they appear very evenly matched with the Snapper a bit faster and in theory the Toro's motor lasting longer (FX).

 

[DSepe]

Both very good mowers...both should serve your needs well. Only concern I have is non-serviceable spindles because I'm not familiar with how they hold up over time. Maybe someone on this site will know more about non-serviceable spindles.

 

[Ric]

Both very good mowers...both should serve your needs well. Only concern I have is non-serviceable spindles because I'm not familiar with how they hold up over time. Maybe someone on this site will know more about non-serviceable spindles.

If your worried about the non-serviceable spindles don't be, there actually better than the others and a lot less hassle. My Toro Has sealed bearings in the front wheels and the Spindles and I've been running it for almost three years, six days a week in business and have never had an issue. I used ti think the same as you, if it doesn't have a zerk I didn't want it but greasing these things every 25 hrs is a load of crap.Sealed bearings are the only way to go. The Toro Z Master 2 or 3000 would be they way I'd go, it's the best in your final contenders list. I wouldn't touch anything with a B&S engine.
As far as how long or how many hours an engine will last and the Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rating it for or at 500 hours I have to laugh at that, somebody is mistaking that. I've seen guys running the Fs and Fx that have over 2000 hours on there engines and there still running strong. The FS on my Grandstand has almost 700 and it still runs like a new engine.

 

[DSepe]

If your worried about the non-serviceable spindles don't be, there actually better than the others and a lot less hassle. My Toro Has sealed bearings in the front wheels and the Spindles and I've been running it for almost three years, six days a week in business and have never had an issue. I used ti think the same as you, if it doesn't have a zerk I didn't want it but greasing these things every 25 hrs is a load of crap.Sealed bearings are the only way to go. The Toro Z Master 2 or 3000 would be they way I'd go, it's the best in your final contenders list. I wouldn't touch anything with a B&S engine. As far as how long or how many hours an engine will last and the Kawasaki FS engine the sticker only rating it for or at 500 hours I have to laugh at that, somebody is mistaking that. I've seen guys running the Fs and Fx that have over 2000 hours on there engines and there still running strong. The FS on my Grandstand has almost 700 and it still runs like a new engine.

Well looks like that is settled by Ric. Non-greasable bearings should hold up fine. He also made me feel better about my Kawasaki FS...upon further inspection that 500 hour thing is basically saying it will comply with EPA standards for at least 500 hours nothing more. Not an engine lifetime expectancy whatsoever or anything. Unless it's a Vanguard made in partnership with Daihatsu, stay away from the B&S Commercial Turf which is a beefed up Intek engine. Just look at Intek reviews on the official B&S website...nuff said. The commercial turf cyclonic is so new it only has 3 reviews.