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I just bought a set of blades for my Cub Cadet Z-Force 44" and have run into problems removing the old blades. The three blades are each bolted on by a 1-1/8 nut. I have attempted to remove them with an impact wrench, socket and pry par, socket - pry bar - sludge hammer combo, torch, solvents, and praying. I cannot get a single nut to rotate and looking at the threads as well as the manual, they are common threaded nuts which left turning "should" loosen. Any suggestions? It's hard to even get a bite to wedge the blades stationery on this thing.

THANKS!

So you said you used a torch. what i would do is get some penetrating pb blaster, and soak them in that and let it sit for an hour or so. then try it again, if that doesnt work then i would say find some way to cut the bolts off.

And another thing, when you get those bolts off, buy some never seize or anti-seize, its like a silver bottle, i know you can get it at most automotive places like advanced auto, but i know for sure they have it at napa. that will solve your problems in the future.

metz12 said:

So you said you used a torch. what i would do is get some penetrating pb blaster, and soak them in that and let it sit for an hour or so. then try it again, if that doesnt work then i would say find some way to cut the bolts off.

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I used the torch to the point that the bearing grease started to boil and smoke, so I backed off. I have broken through welds with less effort than I have been applying to this thing and not a single nut will turn. I put the impact on it for over 5 minutes without it budging.

Make certain they are not left handed threads.

skizzot said:

I used the torch to the point that the bearing grease started to boil and smoke, so I backed off. I have broken through welds with less effort than I have been applying to this thing and not a single nut will turn. I put the impact on it for over 5 minutes without it budging.

Click to expand...

I am not familiar with your set up, but...does the deck come off? if so remove it and turn the nut upside so penetrating oil can soak overnight without running off. If the deck is upright can you partially hack saw one flat without damaging shaft threads, then strike hacksaw cut with cold chisel?

I know how tough this one must be, but if you have heated up the whole assembly you missed the advantage of heating only the nut so it expands away from the bolt. :thumbsup:

motoman said:

I am not familiar with your set up, but...does the deck come off? if so remove it and turn the nut upside so penetrating oil can soak overnight without running off. If the deck is upright can you partially hack saw one flat without damaging shaft threads, then strike hacksaw cut with cold chisel?

I know how tough this one must be, but if you have heated up the whole assembly you missed the advantage of heating only the nut so it expands away from the bolt. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

The deck is off and upside down. I did only heat the nut whereas the purpose of heating is for expansion and you want the nut to expand off the bolt threads....thus only what the bolt is going through is ever heated when using a torch. Penetrating oil has soaked all day, they are right hand nuts, and I don't want to have to replace the expensive assemblies because old blades are stuck to mine. I would consider replacing the shafts if I could get those off. A cold chisel would have about the same effect as the impact I am using as well as the rotary hammer I put on it. I have a garage full of tools and nothing is working. I just can't believe all three nuts won't turn. I talked to my buddy who owns a lawn service and uses cubs and he had no advice other than what I've tried. I may find a way to strap the deck down and attach an aerial winch to the breaker bar to see if 10,000 pounds of force will do anything (That's what we hoist the alligators up with)

There is one more catch....blocking the blades with a 2x4 does no good whereas the center hole of the blades are round (not star). Therefore they just spin when torque is applied to the nut. It's rather difficult to get a wrench on one side and put everything I have into trying to get the other side off.

skizzot said:

The deck is off and upside down. I did only heat the nut whereas the purpose of heating is for expansion and you want the nut to expand off the bolt threads....thus only what the bolt is going through is ever heated when using a torch. Penetrating oil has soaked all day, they are right hand nuts, and I don't want to have to replace the expensive assemblies because old blades are stuck to mine. I would consider replacing the shafts if I could get those off. A cold chisel would have about the same effect as the impact I am using as well as the rotary hammer I put on it. I have a garage full of tools and nothing is working. I just can't believe all three nuts won't turn. I talked to my buddy who owns a lawn service and uses cubs and he had no advice other than what I've tried. I may find a way to strap the deck down and attach an aerial winch to the breaker bar to see if 10,000 pounds of force will do anything (That's what we hoist the alligators up with)

There is one more catch....blocking the blades with a 2x4 does no good whereas the center hole of the blades are round (not star). Therefore they just spin when torque is applied to the nut. It's rather difficult to get a wrench on one side and put everything I have into trying to get the other side off.

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Sounds like you'd be ok with replacing the ?spindles? Can the spindle/blade/nut be driven out from the top with deletion of e.g. rivets? Put another way just save the deck? Also the cold chisel idea was to just break thru the nut flat to the threads so to "peel" away the nut from the threaded shaft.

A trick taught to me by a farmer forty years ago might work for you. I have a mixture of 50% anti-freeze and 50% kerosene. Soak a rag in it and lay it on each nut for 24 hours. Have seen this work on equipment that has been sitting for way to many years. To hold the spindle, take a piece of rope (as small a diameter you can find) and wrap it in the pulley as many times as you can, in the opposite direction, leaving an end that you can tie off. If you get it right the shaft will not turn.

Being the blade just spins and it does no good to hold it, the nut threads are basically loose so there is some other problem.

I only have a red neck impact that consists of a 2x4 of various lengths for the task at hand but I've never seen it fail in conjunction with a good off set box wrench or a breaker bar. I would use my 3 ft. 2x4 for this job and swing it like the late Mickey Mantle was killing one of your alligators. Wear safety equipment like a atheletic cup and a good motor cycle helmet if it makes you feel better.

If that should fail, I'd be taking my angle grinder and grinding one nut flat down until threads are almost visible and it will come off.

skizzot said:

I just bought a set of blades for my Cub Cadet Z-Force 44" and have run into problems removing the old blades. The three blades are each bolted on by a 1-1/8 nut. I have attempted to remove them with an impact wrench, socket and pry par, socket - pry bar - sludge hammer combo, torch, solvents, and praying. I cannot get a single nut to rotate and looking at the threads as well as the manual, they are common threaded nuts which left turning "should" loosen. Any suggestions? It's hard to even get a bite to wedge the blades stationery on this thing.

THANKS!

Click to expand...

I know where you are coming from, the problem is the nuts on the Z Force is that they are torqued at something like 110 to 120 lbs. I had a time with getting them off mine the first time. If it's the lap bar model you will also need a wrench to fit the middle spindle on top to hold that nut, if you don't you'll turn the spindle out from the bottom. Where in Florida are you located. They do turn to the left to remove the nuts and it will take a fairly good impact to remove them. You may want to consider taking the mower to the shop and let them remove the blades the first time or this time if someone got carried away installing them, just don't let them install them. When you get the blades off and you're ready to re-install them torque them at 80 to 90 lbs that's all you need.

After you get them off, clean the threads good before reinstalling. In my opinion, I would never use anti-sieze on blade nuts or bolts. I always clean and dry torque.

Rivets said:

After you get them off, clean the threads good before reinstalling. In my opinion, I would never use anti-sieze on blade nuts or bolts. I always clean and dry torque.

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I'm with you I would never anti-sieze, just clean the threads with a wire brush and dry torque.

I woke up in the nite and remembered a trick as last resort... I have never done this but...
If you have access to a wire welder or maybe arc welder or even oxyacetylelne get a piece of 1/8 mild steel flat stock and tack weld to the outmost ( and underside if poss) of the pulley . The lever arm should match the breaker arm in length if poss. Four small but sufficient weld beads should hold and give you the solid base you need to jar the nut. I have always found you should slightly tighen (if poss) then slightly loosen and put a dab of penetrating oil and repeat. Keep the tighen loosen drill going until the nut will turn completely. Remove weld beads afterwards.

The use of a lubricant is risky on torqued fasteners because using the same torque can over stretch the bolt. Unless the you know the bolt hardness and an "expert" (not me) tells you how to reduce the observed torque you should get the threads clean and dry ( I like WD 40 as a bath and wipe completely dry ) Manufacturers who plate fasteners tell us the zinc plating is itself a lube so those fasteners' observed torques are adjusted accordingly. :2cents:

Ric said:

I know where you are coming from, the problem is the nuts on the Z Force is that they are torqued at something like 110 to 120 lbs. I had a time with getting them off mine the first time. If it's the lap bar model you will also need a wrench to fit the middle spindle on top to hold that nut, if you don't you'll turn the spindle out from the bottom. Where in Florida are you located. They do turn to the left to remove the nuts and it will take a fairly good impact to remove them. You may want to consider taking the mower to the shop and let them remove the blades the first time or this time if someone got carried away installing them, just don't let them install them. When you get the blades off and you're ready to re-install them torque them at 80 to 90 lbs that's all you need.

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^ I'm in Viera. The new blades are on the mower with the deck installed! After soaking for two days with repeated applications of PB Blaster I literally tried to kill this thing tonight. Here's what I did: I got a large metal pipe, a huge breaker bar used frequently for large equipment (swamp buggy, etc.) and a 1-1/8 impact socket. I took another breaker bar with a 1-1/8" to put on the top side and wedged it against a metal part of the deck secured in place with zip ties to prevent slipping. First I tried an air impact wrench delivering torque of 580 ft./lbs which didn't move the nut at all. I then secured the deck and cranked on the pipe before hooking it up to power equipment. That actually worked. The nut never "broke free," but rather slowly turned with a ridiculous amount of force being applied. One thing I can't figure out is why the blade spun in the opposite direction while still tight. (I was actually looking forward to using the winch followed by welding a ring to the pipe in order to hook it to a crane strap attached to a diesel truck.)

Thanks for your comments and suggestions!

Rivets said:

After you get them off, clean the threads good before reinstalling. In my opinion, I would never use anti-sieze on blade nuts or bolts. I always clean and dry torque.

Click to expand...

Why wouldnt you use never seize on the blades if you dont mind me asking? will it loosen easier?

metz12 said:

Why wouldnt you use never seize on the blades if you dont mind me asking? will it loosen easier?

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I don't think so. I just had this problem on a machine that I changed blades on mid summer and applied never seize. Tried to change them a few weeks later and couldn't get one bolt off. I solved it with a 300 lb co-worker pulling on the end of a 8' pipe on a 1/2" breaker bar. This was the Jacobsen in my avatar.

Parkmower said:

I don't think so. I just had this problem on a machine that I changed blades on mid summer and applied never seize. Tried to change them a few weeks later and couldn't get one bolt off. I solved it with a 300 lb co-worker pulling on the end of a 8' pipe on a 1/2" breaker bar. This was the Jacobsen in my avatar.

Click to expand...

Huh, i wonder if it allows the bolt to tighten more? my uncle that has been a mechanic for god knows how long has said to always put never seize on any nut/bolt you take out of something. i would have never thought that it would do that.

Most blade bolts or nuts are used in combination with a spring type locking washer, along with a split ring lock washer. This puts pressure on the threads when they are torqued properly. This dry torque is used to offset set the torque on the blade when they stop. You must realize the spinning torque of the blade is extremely high. If the threads are wet, over time the twisting force of the stopping blade can loosen the nut or bolt, creating a dangerous situation. Anti-seize is used on nuts and bolts that don't have twisting forces on them that could cause them to come loose on their own.

You must also realize that there are many different types of anti-seize materials. A few you might find are; copper/graphite base, nickel/graphite base, zinc, Moly, and Teflon. Each has a specific use, even though many many can be use in a variety of situations, but should never be used on certain jobs. Example, teflon's primary use is in areas where water is in the area, but should never be used at temps over 212 degrees, such as steam, unless it contains a high temp additive.

This is the short, sweet version and there are exceptions. Hope this helps.

Rivets said:

Most blade bolts or nuts are used in combination with a spring type locking washer, along with a split ring lock washer. This puts pressure on the threads when they are torqued properly. This dry torque is used to offset set the torque on the blade when they stop. You must realize the spinning torque of the blade is extremely high. If the threads are wet, over time the twisting force of the stopping blade can loosen the nut or bolt, creating a dangerous situation. Anti-seize is used on nuts and bolts that don't have twisting forces on them that could cause them to come loose on their own.

You must also realize that there are many different types of anti-seize materials. A few you might find are; copper/graphite base, nickel/graphite base, zinc, Moly, and Teflon. Each has a specific use, even though many many can be use in a variety of situations, but should never be used on certain jobs. Example, teflon's primary use is in areas where water is in the area, but should never be used at temps over 212 degrees, such as steam, unless it contains a high temp additive.

This is the short, sweet version and there are exceptions. Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

Thanks, thats interesting. I never realized there were those different uses for the different kind. And what what you use for lubricant? I really like pb blaster, but my grandfather gave me a few cans of loosey goosey and it works great! but they dont make it anymore.

What a person does on their personal equipment is a lot different than a mechanic or business owner will do. Business people and mechanics have to abide by a different set of rules. We must always look to the safety of the customer when ever we work on a unit, if we take short cuts or use the wrong parts or materials, we can get in trouble. CYA. This doesn't mean that certain ways are wrong, but we can't take any chances.

There are many types of rust dissolvers, I use a product called Yield, and a home brew of Anti-freeze and kerosene.

Haul it to someplace that has a high torque impact gun. You will never break them loose without it. I had the same problem on my Bad Boy. There is no stop on the blade to keep them from getting tighter and tighter as they rotate. I tried to use my impact on them with no luck. I took the mower to the shop I purchased it from and they put their impact on it and spun them right off. Before that, I had done everything in my power to break them free incluiding a six foot cheater bar on a 3/4 drive socket set with a reducer to no avail. My torque gun only went to 450 ft. lbs. but I put way more force on them than that. I even beat on the pry bar with a 20lb hammer. There is something about that quick hammering effect of a torque gun with high impact values that will spin them off. Try it before you go to the trouble to replace the spindles. They will need a large impact gun.

rfl said:

Haul it to someplace that has a high torque impact gun. You will never break them loose without it. I had the same problem on my Bad Boy. There is no stop on the blade to keep them from getting tighter and tighter as they rotate. I tried to use my impact on them with no luck. I took the mower to the shop I purchased it from and they put their impact on it and spun them right off. Before that, I had done everything in my power to break them free incluiding a six foot cheater bar on a 3/4 drive socket set with a reducer to no avail. My torque gun only went to 450 ft. lbs. but I put way more force on them than that. I even beat on the pry bar with a 20lb hammer. There is something about that quick hammering effect of a torque gun with high impact values that will spin them off. Try it before you go to the trouble to replace the spindles. They will need a large impact gun.

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I agree and not all impact guns are as advertised . For years the H-Frt "580 ft lb" gun just did not cut it. Once I talked about it to a clerk in the local store. To my amazement he told me to bring it in after ?10 yrs? and no receipt. I got $60 credit against their "earthquake" model which is smaller and better. It did work in loosening corroded A arm bolts, but I doubt it would touch the 1-1/8 nuts you guys described. Why would cub cadet not index their blades in some manner?? (like the star on some)

metz12 said:

Huh, i wonder if it allows the bolt to tighten more? my uncle that has been a mechanic for god knows how long has said to always put never seize on any nut/bolt you take out of something. i would have never thought that it would do that.

Click to expand...

I will search my archives for published data on lubricants and torque and publish it for consumption and comment on this forum.

Parkmower said:

I don't think so. I just had this problem on a machine that I changed blades on mid summer and applied never seize. Tried to change them a few weeks later and couldn't get one bolt off. I solved it with a 300 lb co-worker pulling on the end of a 8' pipe on a 1/2" breaker bar. This was the Jacobsen in my avatar.

Click to expand...

What you may have done is over torqued due to the lubricant. If you look at the bolt carefully you may see "necking" or the threads (tpi) larger in some areas. Such a fastenerr is work hardened and may break if reused. IMO

I guess since the "bolt" is the spindle this is where the threads should be inspected. The huge nut likewise.

rfl said:

Haul it to someplace that has a high torque impact gun. You will never break them loose without it. I had the same problem on my Bad Boy. There is no stop on the blade to keep them from getting tighter and tighter as they rotate. I tried to use my impact on them with no luck. I took the mower to the shop I purchased it from and they put their impact on it and spun them right off. Before that, I had done everything in my power to break them free incluiding a six foot cheater bar on a 3/4 drive socket set with a reducer to no avail. My torque gun only went to 450 ft. lbs. but I put way more force on them than that. I even beat on the pry bar with a 20lb hammer. There is something about that quick hammering effect of a torque gun with high impact values that will spin them off. Try it before you go to the trouble to replace the spindles. They will need a large impact gun.

Click to expand...

If you are going to use an Impact Driver with an 1 1/8 socket to remove blade nuts or bolts you should be looking at no less than 600 ft.lbs. of torque. If you're thinking of buying an Impact Driver I'd suggest the Ingersoll Rand.

just a simple question here. is there a nut on top of the spindle(where the drive pulley is)? if so it may have the same type spindle as a snapper. i had to replace the blades on his, and to remove the blades, you have to put a wrench on the nut on the drive pulley side and try loosening the bolt on the bottom as that the bolt is considered the spindle shaft for it. :confused3: just wondering

Ric said:

If you are going to use an Impact Driver with an 1 1/8 socket to remove blade nuts or bolts you should be looking at no less than 600 ft.lbs. of torque. If you're thinking of buying an Impact Driver I'd suggest the Ingersoll Rand.

Click to expand...

Ric has the key to this problem. In copying torque charts for the forum (threads, lube, torques-current) I note that a 1-1/8" nut in grade 5 takes 794 ft lbs to tighten. BREAKING TORQUE IS BEYOND THE CAPABILITY OF THE BEST RED NECK BREAKER BAR UNLESS IT IS A 10ft 4x4? This is heavy equipment tool capability? Again...why would a mfg set up such an obstacle to the poor home
gardener?:confused2: rfi also saw this clearly.

How bout a nut splitter?

I have experienced this problem before. I removed the belt pulley from the top and slid the spindle down thru the mandrel. I was then able to heat the blade bolt enough to break it loose without any damage to the seals in the mandrel. Put it all back together and it's still working a year later.

motoman said:

Ric has the key to this problem. In copying torque charts for the forum (threads, lube, torques-current) I note that a 1-1/8" nut in grade 5 takes 794 ft lbs to tighten. BREAKING TORQUE IS BEYOND THE CAPABILITY OF THE BEST RED NECK BREAKER BAR UNLESS IT IS A 10ft 4x4? This is heavy equipment tool capability? Again...why would a mfg set up such an obstacle to the poor home
gardener?:confused2: rfi also saw this clearly.

Click to expand...

ERROR ERROR SORRY SORRY Entered the bolt chart ID instead of the backing into the shaft from the nut size discussed. If the shaft is 7/8 od the grade 5 torque is only 382 ft lb, but breakings torque is ? 420 ft lbs? If that bolt is put on dry it is beyond the capability of most home mechanics tools. So sandburs approach is understandable: neverseize drops required torque 45%, to 210 ft lbs, within the range of my trusty crafsman wrench. And breaking torque down to ?230 ft lbs, still a one man job. Ah, the joy of proper lubricant, Again my apology for the error. :ashamed:

motoman said:

ERROR ERROR SORRY SORRY Entered the bolt chart ID instead of the backing into the shaft from the nut size discussed. If the shaft is 7/8 od the grade 5 torque is only 382 ft lb, but breakings torque is ? 420 ft lbs? If that bolt is put on dry it is beyond the capability of most home mechanics tools. So sandburs approach is understandable: neverseize drops required torque 45%, to 210 ft lbs, within the range of my trusty crafsman wrench. And breaking torque down to ?230 ft lbs, still a one man job. Ah, the joy of proper lubricant, Again my apology for the error. :ashamed:

Click to expand...

Something is still not right here for me. I don't have access to the nut/bolt on the CC Z force 44 so I'm working off paper. No free online manual but owners and e how all say torque should be 125 ft lbs. This must be for a 5/8" threaded shaft grade 5 (chart is 145 dry). This makes the nut wall really thick to result in a 1-1/8 " socket (big, beefy), and three times more difficult than my craftsman (50 ft lb) to remove. Maybe what is happening is that owners (and dealers) can't properly torque the nuts with a torque wrench and resort to big air hammers??? This could explain the difficulty getting the nut off. Tire shops well known for over torquing wheel nuts and damaging brake discs. So the poor CC gets over torqued on and impossible to get off. Someone please measue the threaded shaft dia and advise.:confused2:

QUOTE: This makes the nut wall really thick to result in a 1-1/8 " socket (big, beefy),

**********************************************************************
Of the several classifications of nuts it seems they may have used the heavy as opposed to the standard. It would still be interesting what the shaft size is.

motoman said:

Something is still not right here for me. I don't have access to the nut/bolt on the CC Z force 44 so I'm working off paper. No free online manual but owners and e how all say torque should be 125 ft lbs. This must be for a 5/8" threaded shaft grade 5 (chart is 145 dry). This makes the nut wall really thick to result in a 1-1/8 " socket (big, beefy), and three times more difficult than my craftsman (50 ft lb) to remove. Maybe what is happening is that owners (and dealers) can't properly torque the nuts with a torque wrench and resort to big air hammers??? This could explain the difficulty getting the nut off. Tire shops well known for over torquing wheel nuts and damaging brake discs. So the poor CC gets over torqued on and impossible to get off. Someone please measue the threaded shaft dia and advise.:confused2:

Click to expand...

Ok I had the CC 44" and I'm still running the CC 48". Both use the 1 1/8 socket to remove the blades. Torque on those nuts on both are 100 to 120 ft lbs ( that's what the manual calls for ) I would not torque those nuts at over 80 to 90 ft lbs. I never ran over 80 ft lbs on either the 44 or 48" and never had any problems. The spindle shaft size is 3/4"

Ric said:

Ok I had the CC 44" and I'm still running the CC 48". Both use the 1 1/8 socket to remove the blades. Torque on those nuts on both are 100 to 120 ft lbs ( that's what the manual calls for ) I would not torque those nuts at over 80 to 90 ft lbs. I never ran over 80 ft lbs on either the 44 or 48" and never had any problems. The spindle shaft size is 3/4"

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I'm stuck on this one. A 3/4" threaded shaft in Grade 5 takes 257 ft lbs dry, 157 lubed; move down to Grade 3 takes 234 ft lbs dry, 137 lubed; move down to grade 1-2 low carbon steel takes 155 ft lbs dry, 95 lubed. ?????

But this machine is a cut above? The shaft is hollow for greasing? The grade 1-2 is plain unmarked wood working stuff. A thick nut makes a person think air hammer. We should call sherlock holmes.

skizzot said:

I just bought a set of blades for my Cub Cadet Z-Force 44" and have run into problems removing the old blades. The three blades are each bolted on by a 1-1/8 nut. I have attempted to remove them with an impact wrench, socket and pry par, socket - pry bar - sludge hammer combo, torch, solvents, and praying. I cannot get a single nut to rotate and looking at the threads as well as the manual, they are common threaded nuts which left turning "should" loosen. Any suggestions? It's hard to even get a bite to wedge the blades stationery on this thing.

THANKS!

Click to expand...

IGNORE/NO COMMENT

motoman said:

I'm stuck on this one. A 3/4" threaded shaft in Grade 5 takes 257 ft lbs dry, 157 lubed; move down to Grade 3 takes 234 ft lbs dry, 137 lubed; move down to grade 1-2 low carbon steel takes 155 ft lbs dry, 95 lubed. ?????

But this machine is a cut above? The shaft is hollow for greasing? The grade 1-2 is plain unmarked wood working stuff. A thick nut makes a person think air hammer. We should call sherlock holmes.

Click to expand...

I'm just telling you what the manual says and what I've always done with mine. The first time I changed the blades I had the guys at the shop remove the nuts and give them to me when I purchased the blades then brought the mower home and install the blades myself with my Impact gun, same thing on the 48"ZTR and never had a problem with blades on either. (I've always used an Impact gun to remove and install blade bolts) Never used a wrench. :confused2:
Really you should consider your self lucky to have the 3/4" shaft with greasable spindles, you will not find those in 90% of the residential mowers made today.

:smile: What size of impact are you using and how much air pressure? I have removed plenty of blades off cadet decks and various other decks that have not been off in years. I spray them with PB blaster let them soak for awhile and then use my 1/2" inpact at 130 psi. Never had one that did not come off. Try this trick, heat the nut and when glowing red, take a candle and soak the wax in between the nut and the threads. Then put the inpact to it. Don B.

Thanks Ric and Buck. I am still scratching over this one. However Cub Cadet ( International Harvester?) has "engineered?" this blade retention it seems to work even if it causes a lot of pain.

I just saw this thread in the monthly newsletter email and have a suggestion...

Since the deck is already off of the mower, take it to the nearest tire dealer that works with trucks (semi-tires, dump trucks, etc) and offer one of the people ~10-20 bucks to use their air-wrenches to take it off. They have the equipment (3/4" and 1" impact wrenches) that work in the range of 1500 fl-lbs of torque. I would bet they would have those three nuts off within seconds using the impact wrenches they use to remove a dump-truck tire-and-rim.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: What size of impact are you using and how much air pressure? I have removed plenty of blades off cadet decks and various other decks that have not been off in years. I spray them with PB blaster let them soak for awhile and then use my 1/2" inpact at 130 psi. Never had one that did not come off. Try this trick, heat the nut and when glowing red, take a candle and soak the wax in between the nut and the threads. Then put the inpact to it. Don B.

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I don't know if your asking me or him about the impact, but I use an Ingersoll Rand 1/2" at 90psi Heck my air tank is a 6 gallon 2hp 150lb max Bosititch and it works great.

You can go to an auto parts store where they "rent" tools (you pay a full deposit amount) and rent a "nut cracker" which us usually used on front end nuts. Always works, but you have to buy a new nut.

Use a little finess. Cut the nuts with a Dremel, using a Dremel cutoff wheel. Cut on a flat as far as you can without cutting the bolt thread. You'll have to guess about how deep that is. You can make multiple cuts too and then try your impact tools.

While a Dremel is one way to remove a reluctant nut, not everyone has a Dremel and such a large nut will take quite a while to cut and require a lot of finesse to avoid cutting into the shaft threads. Also after trying everything that has been tried so far that has caused such frustration I would think that the fastest solution would be very desirable. A nut cracker will take less than 2 minutes and you can use one for free. After all of his previous methods had failed, even a flamethrower or atomic bomb would be considered finesse. :biggrin:

Mr Skizzot , Use a nut splitter.
I bought one from Sears Roebuck years ago.
It works like a charm after years of use.
Saves lots of time & knuckles too.:laughing:

Good luck with yours.

Try Lithium Grease ,let it sit awhile an it will come lose.

:smile: Ric, I was asking Zkizzot, about the impact. Take the Dremel and cut a slot in the nut, then take a cold chiesel and drive it down the slot. that will open the nut up and then remove the nut.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: Ric, I was asking Zkizzot, about the impact. Take the Dremel and cut a slot in the nut, then take a cold chiesel and drive it down the slot. that will open the nut up and then remove the nut.

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I don't see having to go to that extreme. You can take the thing back to the shop and it will probably cost less for them just to remove the nuts than for you to replace them..

I think what has happened and I've seen a lot of people who think they know how to use an impact gun accidentally over tighten things and then it becomes a PITA to get thing off. It's just like asking what type of oil do I use in my mower thing. The torque thing is the same and it's easy if you READ THE MANUAL and do what the manufacturer says to do.

:smile: Maybe that is a bit extreme. But is is evident, that several people have suggested taking it to a shop, and he's not going for that. Most people only read the manual, when something goes wrong. I have seen some incorrect information in some manuals. The old saying, when all fails read the manual. You are correct about the impact. Especially people that haved used hand tools all the time and never been exposed to impacts. Then all a sudden they get impact tools.

Buckshot 1 said:

:smile: Maybe that is a bit extreme. But is is evident, that several people have suggested taking it to a shop, and he's not going for that. Most people only read the manual, when something goes wrong. I have seen some incorrect information in some manuals. The old saying, when all fails read the manual. You are correct about the impact. Especially people that haved used hand tools all the time and never been exposed to impacts. Then all a sudden they get impact tools.

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Yeah your right, reading the manual for some is like getting a burglar alarm installed after the fact. It's funny how some people think they know more than the manufacturer.
The thing is he can go to that extreme if he likes but one wrong tap could destroy the threads on that shaft and guess what, you ordering new spindles and there not exactly cheap and you're going to go to the shop to get the spindles so you can install them so why not just take the thing and let them remove the nuts and save yourself some money?????

While it is a fact that many people install an alarm after a burglary, it is also a fact that a few people read the manual after they have messed something up. The good part of that statement is that people do learn, albeit slowly at times. Some read the manual before they do anything and still have trouble due to "the rule of the perversity of inanimate objects" which is usually called "Murphy's Law".

I have seen bolts and nuts get so tight that you have to cut them off (without incorrect use of an impact wrench), and it is a common enough problem that specific tools are made to get them off such as "nut crackers" a.k.a. "nut splitters". Automobile front ends have this problem because they are under the car and soaked with water and salt and whatever. Mowers have the advantage of operating where there is no road salt, but under deck nuts can get obstinate without salt.

I tend to agree with the idea of taking the thing to a dealer, but since I do not have a trailer I try to fix my own problems whenever possible. The pickup and delivery charge on my Cub Cadet Tank 60 inch ZTR mower is substantial.

While I don't ask for directions often since I got my GPS unit and pre-check using Google Maps, I do read manuals (also from Google since some manuals given to consumers are worthless).

When all else fails, read the instructions; when that fails, call the dealer and have them pick it up. :biggrin:

As far as I get from this is he used heat. As for my self if that that would mean new bearings or to the very least repack them with grease unless you have grease fitting? I have found a impact wrench isn't always the answer to remove frozen bolts or nuts. I have found a long breaker bar some times works better. When I was working on big trucks some of the torque setting on the transmission yokes ran over 600 foot lbs. We used what was called a torque multiplier.

:smile: I was just wondering if he ever got the blades off? My take on not having a trailer, most people have a car/truck. Take the deck off and stuff in the car/truck and take it to the dealer. Yes, I would be concerned about the heat. I would be checking those bearings and seals? very carefully.

Yes, i would be interested in knowing if he ever got them off and how he did it. This would be filed in my "possible ways to do something" bin. I tend to avoid heat on anything that has bearings or is lubed, hence my choice of a nut splitter when things get ugly

I do have a Silverado pickup but not a trailer, however I no longer even think of trying to put a 60 inch deck in the back of the truck. When I was much younger, I had a garage with an overhead crane. Of course, then I could pick up a V8 engine block from my van and stick it in an engine stand while my daughter threaded the bolts into the mounting brackets. I can no longer do that. :frown:

I think age and the weakness it engenders makes guys use torches and nut splitters, it is not always just plain stubbornness. :biggrin:

:smile: How true on the age and weakness part. I used to pick up those K-series Kohlers out of the frame. But I have since added a chain hoist to do the heavy lifting.

reynoldston said:

As far as I get from this is he used heat. As for my self if that that would mean new bearings or to the very least repack them with grease unless you have grease fitting? I have found a impact wrench isn't always the answer to remove frozen bolts or nuts. I have found a long breaker bar some times works better. When I was working on big trucks some of the torque setting on the transmission yokes ran over 600 foot lbs. We used what was called a torque multiplier.

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Yeah Boy!! That 'torque multiplier' brought back memories when I was a diesel mechanic. My cousin, also a mechanic, has a 1" heavy duty impact wrench he used to pull head bolts and trailer lug nuts with. I forget the brand but he bought it used at a pawn shop and it has served him well over the years! I've used it a time or two myself. I've seen that old girl WRING many bolts off. Have to ease the torque down at first, work her back and forth with some lube. It had the power to wring off a head bolt if you wanted it to.

This thread has very heavy viewing. Has anyone figured out if it's corrosion, overtorque or damaged threads (from over torque) which is causing the great difficulty? Early on we decided it should only take 125 ft lbs to properly tighten.

skizzot said:

The deck is off and upside down. I did only heat the nut whereas the purpose of heating is for expansion and you want the nut to expand off the bolt threads....thus only what the bolt is going through is ever heated when using a torch. Penetrating oil has soaked all day, they are right hand nuts, and I don't want to have to replace the expensive assemblies because old blades are stuck to mine. I would consider replacing the shafts if I could get those off. A cold chisel would have about the same effect as the impact I am using as well as the rotary hammer I put on it. I have a garage full of tools and nothing is working. I just can't believe all three nuts won't turn. I talked to my buddy who owns a lawn service and uses cubs and he had no advice other than what I've tried. I may find a way to strap the deck down and attach an aerial winch to the breaker bar to see if 10,000 pounds of force will do anything (That's what we hoist the alligators up with)

There is one more catch....blocking the blades with a 2x4 does no good whereas the center hole of the blades are round (not star). Therefore they just spin when torque is applied to the nut. It's rather difficult to get a wrench on one side and put everything I have into trying to get the other side off.

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If it were me I would use a nut splitter. Crank it down and split the nuts. They'll come right off.

motoman said:

This thread has very heavy viewing. Has anyone figured out if it's corrosion, overtorque or damaged threads (from over torque) which is causing the great difficulty? Early on we decided it should only take 125 ft lbs to properly tighten.

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The Manual for the 44" says 100 to 120 ft lbs of torque. I wouldn't go over 100LBs it's not needed. That's the reason you're having the problems you're having now because someone got crazy with an impact.

skizzot said:

The deck is off and upside down. I did only heat the nut whereas the purpose of heating is for expansion and you want the nut to expand off the bolt threads....thus only what the bolt is going through is ever heated when using a torch. Penetrating oil has soaked all day, they are right hand nuts, and I don't want to have to replace the expensive assemblies because old blades are stuck to mine. I would consider replacing the shafts if I could get those off. A cold chisel would have about the same effect as the impact I am using as well as the rotary hammer I put on it. I have a garage full of tools and nothing is working. I just can't believe all three nuts won't turn. I talked to my buddy who owns a lawn service and uses cubs and he had no advice other than what I've tried. I may find a way to strap the deck down and attach an aerial winch to the breaker bar to see if 10,000 pounds of force will do anything (That's what we hoist the alligators up with)

There is one more catch....blocking the blades with a 2x4 does no good whereas the center hole of the blades are round (not star). Therefore they just spin when torque is applied to the nut. It's rather difficult to get a wrench on one side and put everything I have into trying to get the other side off.

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Skizzot. if you think you are going to be long solving the problem, best to go and spray the lawn out with Roundup.:laughing:

frankmulcahy said:

Skizzot. if you think you are going to be long solving the problem, best to go and spray the lawn out with Roundup.:laughing:

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This is finally the beginning of the mowing season, and all I have is weeds. We had a nice warm day and I had to work late, the next day it rained cats and dogs, and today it is very cold. :frown:

I think that I will do as Frankmulcahy suggested and just Roundup the weeds/lawn. The good news is that my snow blower has been on overtime this year.:laughing:

Happy Mowing Season!

skizzot said:

I just bought a set of blades for my Cub Cadet Z-Force 44" and have run into problems removing the old blades. The three blades are each bolted on by a 1-1/8 nut. I have attempted to remove them with an impact wrench, socket and pry par, socket - pry bar - sludge hammer combo, torch, solvents, and praying. I cannot get a single nut to rotate and looking at the threads as well as the manual, they are common threaded nuts which left turning "should" loosen. Any suggestions? It's hard to even get a bite to wedge the blades stationery on this thing.

THANKS!

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try an impact wrench

If you were heating up everything untill the grease was boiling you may be using the wrong technique. What you need is a lot of heat in a very small area,on only one side of the nut. Soak up an old towel in water and wrap it arounr the spindle under the blade as tight as you can get. I know you can't get much but anything is better than nothing. Now take an acetylene torch ( A propane or mapp gas torch won't work) with the smallest tip you have and heat the nut in the center of one of the nut flats red hot. This should only take a few seconds. Imediately hit that nut with your impact wrench. I'll bet the nut comes off. Imediately douse plenty of water on the spindle. You don't want to hurt the grease seals if you haven't already. Worked great for me on an old Cub Cadet.

motoman said:

Ric has the key to this problem. In copying torque charts for the forum (threads, lube, torques-current) I note that a 1-1/8" nut in grade 5 takes 794 ft lbs to tighten. BREAKING TORQUE IS BEYOND THE CAPABILITY OF THE BEST RED NECK BREAKER BAR UNLESS IT IS A 10ft 4x4? This is heavy equipment tool capability? Again...why would a mfg set up such an obstacle to the poor home
gardener?:confused2: rfi also saw this clearly.

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SWEET, Maybe that is why my impact puts out 960 FP of torque.
If it can't take a rusted nut off a 1/2 " bolt it will just snap the bolt.
That is why we do not always use that one. 8>)))
I am glad you got it loose.

metz12 said:

Why wouldnt you use never seize on the blades if you dont mind me asking? will it loosen easier?

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I myself would also use never seize but i think the only concern would be that maybe the nut would back off during use!!!!

Ric said:

...... Really you should consider your self lucky to have the 3/4" shaft with greasable spindles, you will not find those in 90% of the residential mowers made today.

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In most cases those "grease fittings" are not really fittings at all, vents to let any moisture escape. (They are designed to look like a grease fitting).

Those which do have actual grease fittings installed are there because owners want and expect them. They actually serve no real purpose.

All spindles use sealed bearings (have for over a decade) and no grease is able to get into the bearings; so the only real benefit for greasing a spindle is to get grease on the shaft to prevent rusting. Don't buy into the argument that the grease gets hot, melts and works it's way into the bearing. The seal is designed to keep dirt, water and everything it can, out (including additional grease).

This cub cadet nut thing is still a puzzle (read this thread). It would seem that the factory ?125 ft lb? torque callout would avoid these "frozen" bolts. But the very large size of the nut no doubt tricks mechanics into applying huge tightening torque. Remember that never seize only worsens the application of "unadjusted" high torque as it over tightens the nut.

Tell me more about the fake zerk fittings on my Craftsman that I regularly grease. Since 2004 I have pumped in at least 1/2 cartridge worth and never seen any expelled.

I like the theory of selective heating the nut, but the seal would go quickly in overheat and so would bolt hardness.

motoman said:

I like the theory of selective heating the nut, but the seal would go quickly in overheat and so would bolt hardness.

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Dangrif is correct. "Now take an acetylene torch (A propane or mapp gas torch won't work) with the smallest tip you have and heat the nut in the center of one of the nut flats red hot. This should only take a few seconds. Imediately hit that nut with your impact wrench. I'll bet the nut comes off. Imediately douse plenty of water on the spindle."

I worked many years in maintenance as did my father before me. I learned early on that only oxy-acetylene torches will heat up a tough nut without messing up bearings. Using oxy-acetylene makes the nut red hot faster than the heat can flow into the shaft and damage the bearing, seals, or shaft hardness. You heat fast, take the nut off fast, and cool it fast and you usually get away with it.

Oh, and buy a new nut and clean your shaft threads well. I usually lube with lithium grease and tighten to a slightly lower torque, but I am old and weak anyway. :smile:

motoman said:

This cub cadet nut thing is still a puzzle (read this thread). It would seem that the factory ?125 ft lb? torque callout would avoid these "frozen" bolts. But the very large size of the nut no doubt tricks mechanics into applying huge tightening torque. Remember that never seize only worsens the application of "unadjusted" high torque as it over tightens the nut.

Tell me more about the fake zerk fittings on my Craftsman that I regularly grease. Since 2004 I have pumped in at least 1/2 cartridge worth and never seen any expelled.

I like the theory of selective heating the nut, but the seal would go quickly in overheat and so would bolt hardness.

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motoman,

User enigma-2 is spot on. I too had a 2006 54" Craftsman YS4500(made for Sears by Husqvarna) that I "religiously"(every 12 hours) lubed the blade spindles. When I began shopping last fall for a ZTR I noticed most of the "Commercial" models had sealed spindles and front forks. Based upon my belief that unless you could keep the bearings greased regularly that the bearings would go out in no time, I was "very reluctant" to spend close to $7K on a mower that didn't have grease zerks. The dealers let me talk to their mechanics who showed me bearings they were replacing in a Residential ZTR(that had grease zerks) and indeed it had sealed bearings in it. They too told me that all mowers had been using sealed bearings for many years, but customers "demanded" greasable spindles(because they wanted to do that "maintenance" to preserve the bearings) so the manufacturers added them(even though it was nothing short of a placebo effect). My Gravely has sealed cast iron spindles that have a 3 year/1,000 hour Warranty and the Gravely mechanic told me to expect to get between 2,500 and 3,500 hours out of them. Since I mow about 1.5 acres, putting less than 100 hours/year on my mower I will be dead and gone before my ZTR needs the spindles rebuilt:0)

djdicetn, Well that do beat all...Even the crafstman manual shows diagrams and instructions that all "jerks" should grease zerks. Only your high credibility allows me to belive this. So the zerks are "little white pills signifying everything, but doing nothing." Craftsman (or MTD) should have saved $ put into the zerks and put on an overtemp gauge so owners don't fry their engines. One flew over the cuckoo nest..... motoman

PS I won't miss tearing up my arm to reach the center zerk. Where's the grease going? :laughing:

motoman said:

djdicetn, Well that do beat all...Even the crafstman manual shows diagrams and instructions that all "jerks" should grease zerks. Only your high credibility allows me to belive this. So the zerks are "little white pills signifying everything, but doing nothing." Craftsman (or MTD) should have saved $ put into the zerks and put on an overtemp gauge so owners don't fry their engines. One flew over the cuckoo nest..... motoman

PS I won't miss tearing up my arm to reach the center zerk. Where's the grease going? :laughing:

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motoman,
Well, the credibility is only as reliable as the "source" of my information:0)
As I understand it, the grease goes into the spindle housing(around the sealed bearings) and "just sits there". I agree, and really consider it a little "deceptive" as a marketing ploy rather than the industry just "coming out of the closet" and telling all customers grease zerks are no longer required/necessary.

I have two suggestions: 1. When other penetrating oils have failed I have had success in a similar situation using a Kano Labs product called Kroil - good stuff.
2. I have not used but have heard suggested that tack welding a longer (than the wrench) rigid piece of iron to the bolt will provide increased leverage to accomplish loosening the bolt.