Export thread

Hi everyone! I'm new to the forum and hope someone can help me with this problem. I have a Toro Wheelhorse 44" riding mower with a 500cc BS intec OHV engine. It started smoking last cutting time and when I tried to start it this cut It would not. I have checked the spark plug and initially the gap was filled with oil. I cleaned the plug good and ran the engine to clear the cylinder while I checked for spark. There was oil in the cylinder and even after replacing the plug with a new one it will still not start. I checked the compression with an ordinary compression tester and got 110lbs. This might not be the right way to test this engine but it does have compression. I also checked the gas line to the carb and have flow. With the oil I couldn't tell if gas was getting into the cylinder. I had cleaned the intake air filter as a spring tuneup and cleaned it again. So now I guess the oil in the cylinder is something that must be corrected. My question is where to look? Valve problem or broken oil ring? I would sure appreciate any help that would be offered to me in this thread and help in where to start to correct it. Thank you in advance.

Larry

First thing to check is the oil level. is it at a proper level and not overfilled. While you have dipstick out smell it, does it smell like gas. If those two things check out ok then we could be looking at mechanical issues that will have to be discussed later.

Might be valve seal. gregjo1948

Thanks guys for your replies. I have had trouble with gas getting into cylinder but have installed a fuel shut off in the line to the carb to stop this a couple of years ago. I have had no issues with the gas since then. Of course one has to remember to shut the valve after one stops the engine!! We have been good this cutting season to do this. As far as the oil level goes. It was full on the recent cut but is now down part way on the dipstick. The oil smells pretty normal as far as oil goes. Might have a slight gas smell. I have taken the carb off and will check inside and clean. Just wondering? If the electric fuel shut-off is not working properly does this effect the gas/air mix. I assume there is a float in the carb which should regulate the gas in the carb reservoir?

Good n Dusty said:

Thanks guys for your replies. I have had trouble with gas getting into cylinder but have installed a fuel shut off in the line to the carb to stop this a couple of years ago. I have had no issues with the gas since then. Of course one has to remember to shut the valve after one stops the engine!! We have been good this cutting season to do this. As far as the oil level goes. It was full on the recent cut but is now down part way on the dipstick. The oil smells pretty normal as far as oil goes. Might have a slight gas smell. I have taken the carb off and will check inside and clean. Just wondering? If the electric fuel shut-off is not working properly does this effect the gas/air mix. I assume there is a float in the carb which should regulate the gas in the carb reservoir?

Click to expand...

If you have an electric fuel solenoid, it shouldn't affect the mixture. If it is sticking part way open, you would starve for fuel and if it's not closing the gas flow isn't shut down when turning off the power. gregjo1948

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Carscw said:

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Click to expand...

You are right. I guess I got scared off when I bought a new needle valve and seat from Toro!! $$ I will have to trouble shoot that thing and see what's up with it. Any ideas about the oil issue?
Thanks

Good n Dusty said:

You are right. I guess I got scared off when I bought a new needle valve and seat from Toro!! $$ I will have to trouble shoot that thing and see what's up with it. Any ideas about the oil issue?
Thanks

Click to expand...

Oil in the cylinder may be from bad valve seals. gregjo1948

80% of the time a oil change will take care of most oil problems.

I have found that Marvel mystery oil works very good. Change the oil and add some to the oil. If it is bad valve seals it will not fix it but will help.

Good n Dusty said:

You are right. I guess I got scared off when I bought a new needle valve and seat from Toro!! $$ I will have to trouble shoot that thing and see what's up with it. Any ideas about the oil issue? Thanks

Click to expand...

Parts are about half price on line.
There are some very good sellers on eBay.

Valve seals are cheap and easy to install. Don't even have to remove the head. gregjo1948

Carscw said:

80% of the time a oil change will take care of most oil problems.

I have found that Marvel mystery oil works very good. Change the oil and add some to the oil. If it is bad valve seals it will not fix it but will help.

Click to expand...

OK! I will try that. I suppose valve seals wouldn't hurt anyway. Never put seals in before. Any hints or is there a tutorial for this somewhere? Thanks!

You'll need an air compressor and a fitting to screw into the spark plug hole.Remove spark plug and roll piston to the top(tdc) ready to fire. Put the air pressure into the cylinder to hold the valves closed while you remove the keepers, retainers, springs, and old seals. If you don't have a valve spring compressor, the springs are light enough to compress by hand using a box end wrench or what ever you have to press in the spring to remove the keepers.Once you've removed the keepers, take out the retainer and spring. The valve seal is just slide down over the valve guide and can now be pull off with pliers or screw driver. Install the new seal, pressing it down over the guide. Sometimes I use a socket to gently tap it into place. Now is the hard part, if you don't have a spring compressor. You need to install the spring, retainer, and keepers. You need to compress the spring with the retainer on it and install the tiny little keepers while holding down the spring. The keepers are wedge shaped slightly and must go in place with the thinner end toward the spring. gregjo1948

gregjo1948 said:

You'll need an air compressor and a fitting to screw into the spark plug hole.Remove spark plug and roll piston to the top(tdc) ready to fire. Put the air pressure into the cylinder to hold the valves closed while you remove the keepers, retainers, springs, and old seals. If you don't have a valve spring compressor, the springs are light enough to compress by hand using a box end wrench or what ever you have to press in the spring to remove the keepers.Once you've removed the keepers, take out the retainer and spring. The valve seal is just slide down over the valve guide and can now be pull off with pliers or screw driver. Install the new seal, pressing it down over the guide. Sometimes I use a socket to gently tap it into place. Now is the hard part, if you don't have a spring compressor. You need to install the spring, retainer, and keepers. You need to compress the spring with the retainer on it and install the tiny little keepers while holding down the spring. The keepers are wedge shaped slightly and must go in place with the thinner end toward the spring. gregjo1948

Click to expand...

This will be an interesting learn for me. I will see what kind of fitting I can find to put in the spark plug hole. Everything else looks do-able. Thanks for the help. I will post when I have tried this and the Mystery Oil. Thanks.

It is easy to replace the seal without removing the head. BUT I would remove the head and clean it up and replace the gasket.

Not saying you need a head gasket but it can not hurt.

Carscw said:

It is easy to replace the seal without removing the head. BUT I would remove the head and clean it up and replace the gasket.

Not saying you need a head gasket but it can not hurt.

Click to expand...

Why would you remove the head and why would you chance reusing the the old head gasket???? I see no cause to"clean" the head and you should always replace a head gasket. There's a very good chance the used gasket won't hold compression and then you get to tear the head off again. gregjo1948

Oh, here we go!!!!!

gregjo1948 said:

Why would you remove the head and why would you chance reusing the the old head gasket???? I see no cause to"clean" the head and you should always replace a head gasket. There's a very good chance the used gasket won't hold compression and then you get to tear the head off again. gregjo1948

Click to expand...

Did I not say replace the gasket?

Carscw said:

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Click to expand...

Now this remark is the "dud", as the fuel solenoid has nothing to do with a flooding float/ needle/seat problem....

Just take off the valve cover and start the engine on low, and you can see if the head gasket is blown, which it likely is, also look at your oil fouled air filter....

bring it!!!!!!!

Fish said:

Now this remark is the "dud", as the fuel solenoid has nothing to do with a flooding float/ needle/seat problem....

Click to expand...

Maybe if you would read the whole post you would not look so dumb all the time.

The key words. IF IT IS BAD
Not once did I say it was the cause of his problem.

Carscw said:

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Click to expand...

Sorry, let me come back to OZ..

If the "AFTERFIRE Solenoid" is not working, then the engine wont start, or shut off the engine if the power is cut off
to it..

An inline shutoff is a great idea as the newer carbs and crap gas can flood the engine sitting in the garage over the
week sitting in the garage. As the leaking inlet needle/float is what floods the engine, not the fuel solenoid.

Carscw said:

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Click to expand...

Well, these new carbs have been problems, and even new ones will flood from time to time. But you have never replaced a new carb for customer, and still have the little basterd flood, have you???????

Because you have never worked on this chit for a living, have you?????

The last time I opened a shop in town, I didn't try to become dealer for any brand, for many, many reasons. But
one of them is the warranty issue. When you put on a brand new carb for a customer under warranty, and it still floods the engine, and it fouls the crankcase, and the air filter, what do you all think what happens????

Yes, a lot of phone calls and a lot of paperwork/filing, and the small dealer loses money all around. They bought the
turd at Lowes or Walmart, and you have put on new carb, which is not warrantable, fought with them tooth and
nail, replaced everything in their fuel system, and the sumbitch still floods. Who pays????

If you bought the mower from me, I would feel obligated, but the small dealers are swarmed by the big-box
warranty claims...

Carscw said:

Did I not say replace the gasket?

Click to expand...

Just the way you wrote it, I thought you meant a new head gasket wasn't nessassary after removing the head. gregjo1948

Fish said:

Sorry, let me come back to OZ.. If the "AFTERFIRE Solenoid" is not working, then the engine wont start, or shut off the engine if the power is cut off to it.. An inline shutoff is a great idea as the newer carbs and crap gas can flood the engine sitting in the garage over the week sitting in the garage. As the leaking inlet needle/float is what floods the engine, not the fuel solenoid.

Click to expand...

Wow just the other day you was fighting with revits You said that the needle was not why the engine floods.

gregjo1948 said:

Just the way you wrote it, I thought you meant a new head gasket wasn't nessassary after removing the head. gregjo1948

Click to expand...

I get it.

When I said I am not saying he needs a new gasket. I ment that I was not saying that was what is wrong with his engine.

Fish said:

Sorry, let me come back to OZ..

If the "AFTERFIRE Solenoid" is not working, then the engine wont start, or shut off the engine if the power is cut off
to it..

An inline shutoff is a great idea as the newer carbs and crap gas can flood the engine sitting in the garage over the
week sitting in the garage. As the leaking inlet needle/float is what floods the engine, not the fuel solenoid.

Click to expand...

Fish--Isn't the solenoid basically a "power" needle and seat. I have thought one was working because I heard it click when power was suppllied. It clicked but didn't open. I haven't come accross one that stayed open after removing power. I'm also with the understanding that this solenoid is used to stop the backfire after you turn the engine off. What do you think/ gregjo1948

I did not know the solenoid shut the engine off. I always thought the coil shut the engine off.

So not sure how my engines shuts off with the tab on the solenoid cut off and no wires going to it.

Carscw said:

I did not know the solenoid shut the engine off. I always thought the coil shut the engine off.

So not sure how my engines shuts off with the tab on the solenoid cut off and no wires going to it.

Click to expand...

Do you beleive in magic?? gregjo1948

Hmmm! Interesting debate there guys. Lots of input that led me to take the head off the motor and see what was up inside. I had the carb and fuel shutoff solenoid off and cleaned. The solenoid seemed to be stuck partly open. It moved up and down with little effort and I tried on a 12v battery and it worked. I installed and it worked with the switch. I mean I could hear it clicking when I turned the switch to on and off. I assume it is working now. I have taken the head off and there appears to be two channels in the gasket on the narrow strip between the piston and the push rod cavity. This must be where the oil is coming from. The sleeve is in excellent condition with no scratches or signs of wear from the piston rings. Should I assume for now that the rings are OK and just replace the head gasket? What about the valves and seals. Should I take the valves out and clean them while I have the head off? Thanks for your help.

Good n Dusty said:

Hmmm! Interesting debate there guys. Lots of input that led me to take the head off the motor and see what was up inside. I had the carb and fuel shutoff solenoid off and cleaned. The solenoid seemed to be stuck partly open. It moved up and down with little effort and I tried on a 12v battery and it worked. I installed and it worked with the switch. I mean I could hear it clicking when I turned the switch to on and off. I assume it is working now. I have taken the head off and there appears to be two channels in the gasket on the narrow strip between the piston and the push rod cavity. This must be where the oil is coming from. The sleeve is in excellent condition with no scratches or signs of wear from the piston rings. Should I assume for now that the rings are OK and just replace the head gasket? What about the valves and seals. Should I take the valves out and clean them while I have the head off? Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

The solenoid can click and still not operate correctly. If you didn't hear it clicking before you cleaned it, maybe it'll be OK, now that you can hear it. You could take the valves out clean and lap them. Lapping them correctly will let you know if they're seating well. You should install new valve seals also. gregjo1948

Good n Dusty said:

Hmmm! Interesting debate there guys. Lots of input that led me to take the head off the motor and see what was up inside. I have taken the head off and there appears to be two channels in the gasket on the narrow strip between the piston and the push rod cavity. This must be where the oil is coming from.


Should I assume for now that the rings are OK and just replace the head gasket? Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

Now that it is established that the head gasket was the problem all along, just replace it, but just buff all of the old gasket material and carbon off of the valves, you can be mowing in the morning.


Please ignore the "solenoid" on the bottom of the carb, if things run ok. It has nothing to do with carb flooding, it was designed
to help eliminate the afterfire backfire out of the muffler, when the mfgrs. produced the extra quiet mufflers. When you turn the
key off, the engine still turns over many times, and sucks in a lot of unburnt fuel/air, and the newer mufflers with the extra red hot baffles inside, would produce shotgun like explosion after the mower shut down.
When you turn the key off, it grounds out the ignition, so that the coil will not fire.

When you turn the key off, it should cut the power off to the fuel shutoff solenoid as well, as it is just a basic electromagnet, that when off, blocks the main jet on the carb
so it doesn't get loaded with unburnt fuel/air.

It has nothing to do with the inlet needle inside the carb, which will/can cause the flooding.

But in your case, just replace the head gasket, then go mow.

Wow. And I got bashed for saying remove the head.

Fish said:

Just take off the valve cover and start the engine on low, and you can see if the head gasket is blown, which it likely is, also look at your oil fouled air filter....

Click to expand...

LOL

Carscw said:

Putting a inline shut off valve does not fix it. It is just a Bandaid
Fix it right and replace the fuel solenoid if it is bad.

Click to expand...

First one.

Carscw said:

80% of the time a oil change will take care of most oil problems.

I have found that Marvel mystery oil works very good. Change the oil and add some to the oil. If it is bad valve seals it will not fix it but will help.

Click to expand...

2nd guess.

Thanks for the input again. I have ordered a new gasket and will have it and installed sometime next week. It wouldn't start before so I hope with the increased compression that it will. You have the right head gasket in your photo there Mr. Fish. As far as the valves are concerned because this just started halfway through the last mowing (oil burning) I will take a chance on them and just do an outward cleaning. I know this might lead to an I told you so but I have already ordered the gasket and now holiday so can't wait.
One question about the carb. When I took it off and cleaned it best I could there was one needle valve that I could not take off because of a black plastic cap thing on it. I could turn the valve about a quarter turn and just turned back to where it was. Is there a way to take this needle out? I may have more questions on the carb if it doesn't start but I hope it will.

The black plastic cap can be pried off with a screwdriver, and reinstalled later if you wish. Just don't put to much force on the needle valve and cause it to bend or break.

If the carb is not flooding and it runs good, leave it alone.

The reason the engine is smoking is because most likely the head gasket is blown like the one I posted the pic of. The compression leaks past the blown are and sends compression to the crankcase which forces oil into the breather of the carb,
it is "Very Common" on these engines.


The solenoid on the bottom of the carb shuts off the fuel to the engine by closing off the main jet, and was put there to eliminate the "afterfire" explosion in the newer style mufflers with the extra quiet baffles inside.


When the key is turned off, the engine still is cycling several revolutions, and still pulling gas vapor into the engine, but the coil is not firing, so all of those un-burnt fumes are collected inside the muffler with all of those glowing hot baffles.....= Boom!!

The older/louder mufflers didn't have all of those quiet baffles, they just aimed the exhaust away from the user, so the unburnt fumes just went out the exhaust.......

Your carb sounds fine, put it back on.

The oil is coming from the blown head gasket.

Finally back! I picked up the head gasket this morning and put it in and adjusted the valves and put it back together and still will not start. I tried everything I could think of to get it to run and there is not a pop or a kick or anything. I checked the compression and have about 140lbs. The fire is good and bright. New plug or old one. I even put a little gas in the intake and still nothing. I checked the valve lifter clearance again and tried again. I did notice a couple of things as I was trouble shooting. One is that there is a little blow back through the intake. The second is when I rotate the engine I notice that the valve lifter actually goes down a tiny bit (opens the valve) on the up stroke and then closes the valve all the way. This is about 3/4 way up to fire. Any hope for it?

If you want to adjust the valves again I can tell you a very easy way of doing it.

Sure! Always willing to learn.

Take the valve cover off and remove spark plug turn the engine >>>counterclockwise <<<< two or more times Untill one valve is open all the way ( pushed in as far as it will go ) then adjust the other one to spec. Repeat for the other one.

This way will give you the same results as trying to find 1/4 past TDC and takes half the time.


Just remember to turn the engine counterclockwise.

Back from the weekend. Just wondering if anyone has a suggestion as to what I can do to get it started? If I could pull it I would try that but I can't for obvious reasons.

Good n Dusty said:

Finally back! I picked up the head gasket this morning and put it in and adjusted the valves and put it back together and still will not start. I tried everything I could think of to get it to run and there is not a pop or a kick or anything. I checked the compression and have about 140lbs. The fire is good and bright. New plug or old one. I even put a little gas in the intake and still nothing. I checked the valve lifter clearance again and tried again. I did notice a couple of things as I was trouble shooting. One is that there is a little blow back through the intake. The second is when I rotate the engine I notice that the valve lifter actually goes down a tiny bit (opens the valve) on the up stroke and then closes the valve all the way. This is about 3/4 way up to fire. Any hope for it?

Click to expand...

What you're probably seeing is the compression release that is built into the engine. If you have spark, fuel, and compression it should run unless the timing sequence is off. Have you checked the flywheel key to see if it is sheared? gregjo1948

gregjo1948 said:

What you're probably seeing is the compression release that is built into the engine. If you have spark, fuel, and compression it should run unless the timing sequence is off. Have you checked the flywheel key to see if it is sheared? gregjo1948

Click to expand...

No, I have not tried that. I cleaned the rust off the flywheel and magnet area but didn't think that would have happened. I will have to try that but not today because I have a long day of hard work ahead and the day is short. I will post when I get that done. I should have checked that when it was apart having not been able to start it before. Thanks Greg!

Carscw said:

Take the valve cover off and remove spark plug turn the engine >>>counterclockwise <<<< two or more times Untill one valve is open all the way ( pushed in as far as it will go ) then adjust the other one to spec. Repeat for the other one.

This way will give you the same results as trying to find 1/4 past TDC and takes half the time.


Just remember to turn the engine counterclockwise.

Click to expand...

I would have to say this is not a good idea!!!!

Good n Dusty said:

No, I have not tried that. I cleaned the rust off the flywheel and magnet area but didn't think that would have happened. I will have to try that but not today because I have a long day of hard work ahead and the day is short. I will post when I get that done. I should have checked that when it was apart having not been able to start it before. Thanks Greg!

Click to expand...

The oil problem was likely the head gasket, why it won't start is another one altogether. This has been a long and convoluted thread full of bad advice. When was the last time the engine ran and smoked badly??? Detail the next several steps...

Carscw said:

Take the valve cover off and remove spark plug turn the engine >>>counterclockwise <<<< two or more times Untill one valve is open all the way ( pushed in as far as it will go ) then adjust the other one to spec. Repeat for the other one. This way will give you the same results as trying to find 1/4 past TDC and takes half the time. Just remember to turn the engine counterclockwise.

Click to expand...

People have been adjusting valves like this for years and years.

There is a thread on here about it.

Myself and 100s of others have been doing this for years. This is the only way I adjust valves for the past 25 years. I have engines with over 2000 hours on them so I must be doing something right.

Fish said:

The oil problem was likely the head gasket, why it won't start is another one altogether. This has been a long and convoluted thread full of bad advice. When was the last time the engine ran and smoked badly??? Detail the next several steps...

Click to expand...

It seams as every thread is full of bad advice if everyone does not bow down to you and what you say.

If you knew anything about engines and could build your own with out a book then you would know why my way of adjusting valves works.

Just because someone does not do something the way you do does NOT make their way wrong.

Carscw said:

People have been adjusting valves like this for years and years.

There is a thread on here about it.

Myself and 100s of others have been doing this for years. This is the only way I adjust valves for the past 25 years. I have engines with over 2000 hours on them so I must be doing something right.

Click to expand...

Sure, but why would you constantly do it the wrong way? Did your grand dad do it that way??? Did your grand dad find out that is was true on all of the brands that we, err "I" work on?????

Fish said:

Sure, but why would you constantly do it the wrong way? Did your grand dad do it that way??? Did your grand dad find out that is was true on all of the brands that we, err "I" work on?????

Click to expand...

And it is the wrong way why? And we all know that you do not work on engines.

Carscw said:

And it is the wrong way why?


And we all no that you do not work on engines.

Click to expand...

know?

Fish said:

know?

Click to expand...

Auto correct.

So how is my way and so many others the wrong way?

That last method that you crapped out there is yours alone, I am fairly sure.....

Whether it works or not, well, like your other advice, it is worth looking at here..... Any posts that back it up? any of your advice for that matter?

Fish said:

That last method that you crapped out there is yours alone, I am fairly sure..... Whether it works or not, well, like your other advice, it is worth looking at here..... Any posts that back it up? any of your advice for that matter?

Click to expand...

Again can you tell us why it is the wrong way?
Try it on any engine then do it as the book says to. And it will have the same outcome.

The problem with you is you can not do anything that you have not read in a book.

You are not even a has been your I never was and never will be.

I would love to be next you in a shop and go head to head putting a mower together from a pile of parts with no books to help you. To include building the engine.

OK, I did manage to check the key in the flywheel and it is good. I didn't get it back together being too tired and I figured someone might have another idea to share. That is the weirdest thing!! I mean it not starting!
As far as the history of the problem is concerned. It started to blow blue smoke out the exhaust about 3/4 way through the last cut. My wife was operating it at the time and called me over. I checked a few things while it was idling and let the motor cool by air. She finished the cut and parked it in the shed and shut the gas off. When the next cut time came I went out to start it and it would not start. The oil was down a half liter and the plug was wet with oil and perhaps gas and the rest is recorded here with the start of the thread.
I haven't seen any comment with regards to the intake valve that I wrote a few posts ago. I have never seen a valve go the wrong way in mid stroke! Thanks all.

I had time to work on the BS motor today and got it started. I cleaned the carb again and put fresh gas in the tank and got it started. I changed the oil and the filter and it ran good for the time that I had to cut before I got rained out. I think it will be OK and I want to thank everyone for their input and will end this thread. If I have any more problems I will start another. Thanks again.:smile:

Carscw said:

Again can you tell us why it is the wrong way?
Try it on any engine then do it as the book says to. And it will have the same outcome.

The problem with you is you can not do anything that you have not read in a book.

You are not even a has been your I never was and never will be.

I would love to be next you in a shop and go head to head putting a mower together from a pile of parts with no books to help you. To include building the engine.

Click to expand...

Lol ill take that challenge even when I lose it will be fun

exotion said:

Lol ill take that challenge even when I lose it will be fun

Click to expand...

Man that's what is all about is fun.
Maybe I am just a strange person but I enjoy working on and building a mower.

But hate working on a mower when I need it to cut yards tomorrow.

Carscw said:

Man that's what is all about is fun.
Maybe I am just a strange person but I enjoy working on and building a mower.

But hate working on a mower when I need it to cut yards tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Ya I get it. I buy and sell mowers as a hobby I can do that all day. As soon as one of my work mowers breaks I get so pissed... Hopefully I don't have to do that any time soon with my new $1500 toro lol.

I have gotten real good at tearing down a small single cylindar engine and putting it back together still trying to figure out cars tho can't wait until I get enough money for a rebuild kit for the fiero