Carb Leaking - know where, don't know why

mculik5

Forum Newbie
Messages
2
Hi. New to this forum. Thanks in advance.

I have a 15HP Brush Master CH4 chipper that came with our new house. I have no use for it, so I'm selling it. It runs and works great, but has one issue that I'd like to fix before selling it. Whenever the fuel flow valve is turned on, the carb leaks from what appears to be some kind of drain port. I took it apart and found out where it's leaking from, but don't know what is broken that is causing this issue.

FYI, the engine is branded DEK and the carb has Yinba cast on the side of it.

I've attached a picture of what I've found. Here are the details:

1. Fuel is gravity fed from a tank several inches above the entire carb.
2. When the fuel flow valve is turned on, fuel enters at the hose barb at the end of the top arrow on the left and begins to fill the bowl (which was removed when I took this pic).
3. Because of the height of the tank, fuel completely fills the bowl and "bowl chamber" inside the carb.
4. At the very top of the "bowl chamber," there is a through-hole (circled in blue). There's no check valve or anything on either side of the hole. It's literally just a through-hole.
5. When the fuel reaches the height of the hole, it starts draining through the hole and down this weird, baffled pathway (drawn in blue) between the carb and the air filter connection which drains to the ground.

FYI, there are no other holes in the "bowl chamber" except for the needle valve. Also, to be clear, the needle valve is not leaking. The engine runs great and the fuel is distinctly coming from the drain port I mentioned above.

I'm guessing that the through-hole is to allow air to escape as the carb bowl fills. What I don't understand is what is supposed to stop the fuel from leaking once the bowl is full?

Thoughts? Again, thanks.

IMG_2926.jpg
 

ILENGINE

Lawn Pro
Messages
6,235
Hi. New to this forum. Thanks in advance.

I have a 15HP Brush Master CH4 chipper that came with our new house. I have no use for it, so I'm selling it. It runs and works great, but has one issue that I'd like to fix before selling it. Whenever the fuel flow valve is turned on, the carb leaks from what appears to be some kind of drain port. I took it apart and found out where it's leaking from, but don't know what is broken that is causing this issue.

FYI, the engine is branded DEK and the carb has Yinba cast on the side of it.

I've attached a picture of what I've found. Here are the details:

1. Fuel is gravity fed from a tank several inches above the entire carb.
2. When the fuel flow valve is turned on, fuel enters at the hose barb at the end of the top arrow on the left and begins to fill the bowl (which was removed when I took this pic).
3. Because of the height of the tank, fuel completely fills the bowl and "bowl chamber" inside the carb.
4. At the very top of the "bowl chamber," there is a through-hole (circled in blue). There's no check valve or anything on either side of the hole. It's literally just a through-hole.
5. When the fuel reaches the height of the hole, it starts draining through the hole and down this weird, baffled pathway (drawn in blue) between the carb and the air filter connection which drains to the ground.

FYI, there are no other holes in the "bowl chamber" except for the needle valve. Also, to be clear, the needle valve is not leaking. The engine runs great and the fuel is distinctly coming from the drain port I mentioned above.

I'm guessing that the through-hole is to allow air to escape as the carb bowl fills. What I don't understand is what is supposed to stop the fuel from leaking once the bowl is full?

Thoughts? Again, thanks.

Either the float valve is actually leaking or the pathway between the fuel inlet and the float valve seat is cracked, which I have only seen once in 21 years.
 

cpurvis

Lawn Addict
Messages
1,686
The float chamber should not be completely full of fuel. It's the float and needle valve's job to prevent that. Check the float to make sure it is airtight; replace if necessary. Replace the needle valve (and seat, if you can).
 

mculik5

Forum Newbie
Messages
2
The float chamber should not be completely full of fuel. It's the float and needle valve's job to prevent that. Check the float to make sure it is airtight; replace if necessary. Replace the needle valve (and seat, if you can).
Thanks to both of you. I feel like an idiot. Should've Googled first. I didn't realize the purpose of the float was to shut off the fuel flow to the bowl and thought the needle valve was controlling fuel flow into the airstream somehow.

The float is not air tight. It's got fuel in it. Since the engine runs fine, I didn't think anything of it.

Now I've got to figure out if/where I can get parts.

Thanks again!
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Messages
12,837
Did you ever figure out where to get parts (and a manual) for this motor? Thanks!
There is no service literature nor any parts for these lowest possible price engines, because it is the lowest possible price & warehouses full of parts cost a fortune and generally run at a loss. Ditto for producing manuals.
As designing & testing an engine also costs money all of these bottom price engines are copies of old engines that are out of patient or strait out patient thieft.

As Honda makes the best small engines just about all of them are Honda copies.
Thus all you have to do is work out which Honda engine DEK stole.
Some times they get a bit canny and mix parts from 2 different engines.

Once you have worked out this then you can go to an independent engine shop and get some after market Honda clone parts.
You can take pot luck and hopefully get parts that actually work and will in fact fit.
Don't bother with a Honda shop because they will need an engine & serial number to look up the part on the computer.
 

david02777

Member
Messages
14
Thank you, I really appreciate the help. I've got the DEK engine number off their website - this may be an SKU or a number for the website, so I'm not sure if it will help me yet. (15 HP # E06910). I'm not too familiar with small engine types so I'll have to do some digging.

As for the production observations, I couldn't agree with you more. I've a bunch of years overseeing production in Chinese factories (machine shops) and I can see how this all unfolded.

Thanks again.
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Messages
12,837
Thank you, I really appreciate the help. I've got the DEK engine number off their website - this may be an SKU or a number for the website, so I'm not sure if it will help me yet. (15 HP # E06910). I'm not too familiar with small engine types so I'll have to do some digging.

As for the production observations, I couldn't agree with you more. I've a bunch of years overseeing production in Chinese factories (machine shops) and I can see how this all unfolded.

Thanks again.
And we both know how it will end and it ain't pretty but greed is a basic human trait.
Without it we would not have outlived the dinosaurs..
A friends son has just finished a degree course in criminalogy.
He was taught that less than 10 % of thiefts happen because thiefs want whatever the item is they are stealing and in most cases that would be food.
The other 90 % gets sold to "honest" people

If you post a few photos those with a wider knowledge than mine might recognize the engine styling.
 

david02777

Member
Messages
14
And we both know how it will end and it ain't pretty but greed is a basic human trait.
Without it we would not have outlived the dinosaurs..
A friends son has just finished a degree course in criminalogy.
He was taught that less than 10 % of thiefts happen because thiefs want whatever the item is they are stealing and in most cases that would be food.
The other 90 % gets sold to "honest" people

If you post a few photos those with a wider knowledge than mine might recognize the engine styling.

I think the crime statistics are depressing but I also agree that we all struggle with greed and doing the right thing. (Philosophy of small engine repair?)

Here are some photos. Another poster in another thread said that it's probably the Honda GX390 clone, although this is 420 cc and 15 HP (the Honda is less).

Thanks again for all the help!
 

Attachments

david02777

Member
Messages
14
The predator 420cc is 13 HP.
Would not surprise me if it's just a number on the sticker
As a full-time professional ignoramus about small engines, I had to look up "Predator 420cc."

Harbor Freight - that really made me laugh. Maybe I can get 20% with a super coupon?

It looks very very close to the one on my DEK chipper, probably the same place.

Thank you for the reference and the laugh!
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Messages
12,837
Stickers on the engine are just that.
A lot of times if you are careful you can peel off several from the same engine with different make & different Hp ratings on all of them.
We get a lot of fake Honda engines down here , usually sold door to door by young people on working holidays.
Under the Honda stickers are always other stickers, usually in an Asian language.
So Mr well respected business man buys a container load of Wee Fool Ewu engines in Thialand, gets them unloaded in a factory rented by the week.
Pays some backpackers to put the Honda stickers on them then gets another bunch of Backpackers to sell them on a commission basis door to door.

When that container load is gone, he vacates that factory and moves his operation to another location
 

david02777

Member
Messages
14
Stickers on the engine are just that.
A lot of times if you are careful you can peel off several from the same engine with different make & different Hp ratings on all of them.
We get a lot of fake Honda engines down here , usually sold door to door by young people on working holidays.
Under the Honda stickers are always other stickers, usually in an Asian language.
So Mr well respected business man buys a container load of Wee Fool Ewu engines in Thialand, gets them unloaded in a factory rented by the week.
Pays some backpackers to put the Honda stickers on them then gets another bunch of Backpackers to sell them on a commission basis door to door.

When that container load is gone, he vacates that factory and moves his operation to another location
One of my business relations in Perth does the China/AUS thing with a borderline company that sells some questionable stuff (nothing to do with small engines). It's all a finance play, and I asked him one day if he ever cared about the product. I knew the answer, I just wanted to hear him say it.

The Wee Fool Ewu Engine thing had me laughing. Perfect.
 

Scrubcadet10

Lawn Addict
Messages
1,272
I repowered a tiller with a predator 212.
Due to finances it's all he could do, $120. Even though for 50 more you can get a Briggs CR.
Predator still starts 1st pull.


I'm surprised Honda let's them get away with copying their engines.
Surely they have patents or rights...?:confused3:
 

david02777

Member
Messages
14
I repowered a tiller with a predator 212.
Due to finances it's all he could do, $120. Even though for 50 more you can get a Briggs CR.
Predator still starts 1st pull.


I'm surprised Honda let's them get away with copying their engines.
Surely they have patents or rights...?:confused3:
That's great the predator runs well. I think the issue with Chinese production is QC, they are capable of making things well and once you get the tolerances right (for everything from shipping to mechanical), you have a solid product. But it's been explained to me many, many times by people there that QC is not something that the culture values, whereas in Germany it is.

I've earned a lot of money from IP over the years, but for physical products (compared to copyright), the world is full of factories, governments and customers who will fuel a massive economy on using someone else's design poorly. Don't get me started on Russia . . . .
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Messages
12,837
I repowered a tiller with a predator 212.
Due to finances it's all he could do, $120. Even though for 50 more you can get a Briggs CR.
Predator still starts 1st pull.


I'm surprised Honda let's them get away with copying their engines.
Surely they have patents or rights...?:confused3:
A patient is only as good as the authority that regulates it.
Next the patient laws are aimed at the factory & not the retailer / wholesaler.
This used to be the case but AFAIK the WTO regulations prevent copyright / patient holders persuing the vendor.

The next thing to realize is Chinese companies do not breech patient.
The patient infringement is done by the commissioning purchaser.
Unlike USA factories, Chinese companies do not make a single product till it has been ordered.
They are not sending spies all over the world to steal other peoples ideas & products.
The rest of the world comes to them.
Sleasebag retailers like HF & Wallys send top shelf USA made products to China and get quotes from factories to make "1,000,000 as per sample provided "
or
Reputable companies like B & S or Kohler or Honda set up a factory in order to produce their product cheaper than their competitors.
Now if they were willing to accept 20% less profit they could make the entire engines in house but as the object is to maximumize profit by making the engines as cheap as possible only a small amount is actually made in house.
SO the factory might cast & machine the short block then assemble the engine from bought in parts.
In this case they give Combustion Technology Services the working diagrams for the current carburettor.
Under USA laws, that IP remains the property of B & S / Kohler / Honda / etc so CTS can only make that carb for the company that originally gave them the drawings.
However under Chinese laws once you have asked CTS to make a carb, they can make the same carb for any other company to order, but not make them and sell direct from stock.
This is the IP thieft that president Trump is always rabbiting on about.

The next problem is actually getting a patient case to court & winning without bankrupting yourself in the process.
Trade mark infringments are easy but still cost millions to persue
Honda got rid of H.Onda & Hoda through the courts but failed to win on the trade mark red engines.
So World Lawn can sell an identical looking SP mower, painted silver with a B & S ( Chinese ) engine that has a styling cowling that is an exact copy of the Honda one in the same red colour.
Thus with the 2 product lines side by side it is very hard to tell the real from the copy.
 
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