Buying Advice Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)

alteredz

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)

( :thumbsup: I used all available characters in the Title!)

Yeah, I've pretty much made up my mind on getting this mower - thanks in part to many on this and other tractor/mowing forums who posted their comparison threads. Plus, the Gravely name is a family thing (I grew up using a 1950s walk behind Gravely to cut the grass at home). I realize it's not the same company, but this thing appears to be well made, has a good rep, has the right parts and not super-crazy expensive.

The 915164 has the Kaw FR 23 HP engine and the 915188 has the Kohler 7000 Series Pro 25 HP engine

I have no idea if those two rate them the same way or what the torque/hp curves look like.

Believe me, I never seem to have enough power in my vehicles, so an extra 2HP over the 23 is enticing. My daily driver is a tweaked 2000 BMW M5, and my fun car is a Datsun 240Z with a 450+ hp small block chevy V8. :biggrin:

The mowers are the same price ($4199 at the place near me).

So I have no idea how to decide. I saw someone here saying the Kohler 7000 engine didn't look impressive to them on the outside, but what I'd really like to know is how are they holding up (new design last year). Or should I follow my dad's old advice (rest is soul) and NOT buy the new model, as the bugs may not be worked out yet. I've searched and there doesn't seem to be much user data on the new Kohler engine that I can find.

Cheers, Pete
 

RetiredGuns

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

I've had both although the Kohler on a tractor and the Kawasaki on a ZTR. I like the Kawasaki because it starts so quickly and is quiet. That Kohler 7000 Pro may be quiet as well, I've never heard one.
There are a lot of folks that get all giddy about Kawasakis & Hondas. Maybe it's the equation to motorcycles compared to Kohler and the equation to toilets? :wink:

There is always the debate about parts availability & that seems to favor Kohler. Kawasaki engines sure seem to hold up as well as any others. In my mind, this one can be a toss-up as I'm sure that 7000 Pro is a good engine.
So in the end, I am absolutely no help!
 

alteredz

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

Thanks, Steve! If the engine is that good (Kaw) then parts availability shouldn't be a huge issue. I'd think general maintenance parts probably have aftermarket support (filters, etc.) that shouldn't hurt the longevity or warranty.

(Semper Fi! My son is in his second year now with 2/8, as a 60mm Mortarman, stationed in Camp Lejeune.)
 

clay45

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

Both good reputable engine manufacturers. From what I can tell these are both what you might call prosumer grade engines. FR in Kawaski "R" = Residential. The new Kohler Confidant series is their commercial grade with the 7000 series the next level down with 2000 series under that.

Some engine gurus can give you more detailed information.
 

djdicetn

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

( :thumbsup: I used all available characters in the Title!)

Yeah, I've pretty much made up my mind on getting this mower - thanks in part to many on this and other tractor/mowing forums who posted their comparison threads. Plus, the Gravely name is a family thing (I grew up using a 1950s walk behind Gravely to cut the grass at home). I realize it's not the same company, but this thing appears to be well made, has a good rep, has the right parts and not super-crazy expensive.

The 915164 has the Kaw FR 23 HP engine and the 915188 has the Kohler 7000 Series Pro 25 HP engine

I have no idea if those two rate them the same way or what the torque/hp curves look like.

Believe me, I never seem to have enough power in my vehicles, so an extra 2HP over the 23 is enticing. My daily driver is a tweaked 2000 BMW M5, and my fun car is a Datsun 240Z with a 450+ hp small block chevy V8. :biggrin:

The mowers are the same price ($4199 at the place near me).

So I have no idea how to decide. I saw someone here saying the Kohler 7000 engine didn't look impressive to them on the outside, but what I'd really like to know is how are they holding up (new design last year). Or should I follow my dad's old advice (rest is soul) and NOT buy the new model, as the bugs may not be worked out yet. I've searched and there doesn't seem to be much user data on the new Kohler engine that I can find.

Cheers, Pete

I lean towards the Kawasaki engines which are considered the most reliable and durable small engines on the market right now. Again, I recommend that you consider upgrading to the ZT HD which for the money is much heavier duty than the XL series. Also, with the mowing season winding down in your area in a couple of months....if you aren't in dire need of getting another mower September-October is the "buyer's market" for ZTR's. I bought my 2012 Pro-Turn 100 XDZ in mid-September(just before the 2013 models are delivered shortly after Thanksgiving) and saved over $1,000 on it(closer to $1,300). If you can wait until then I'm willing to bet that you could get into the 52" ZT HD for about $300-$400 more than the ZT XL instead of the current $900 difference. Just a suggestion:0)
 

RetiredGuns

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

Thanks, Steve! If the engine is that good (Kaw) then parts availability shouldn't be a huge issue. I'd think general maintenance parts probably have aftermarket support (filters, etc.) that shouldn't hurt the longevity or warranty.

(Semper Fi! My son is in his second year now with 2/8, as a 60mm Mortarman, stationed in Camp Lejeune.)

Awesome! I was the 2D Marine Division Infantry Weapons Chief my last 4 years at Camp Lejeune. I knew a lot of guys in 8th Marines. I wish your Son a safe & prosperous tour.
 

alteredz

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

I lean towards the Kawasaki engines which are considered the most reliable and durable small engines on the market right now. Again, I recommend that you consider upgrading to the ZT HD which for the money is much heavier duty than the XL series. Also, with the mowing season winding down in your area in a couple of months....if you aren't in dire need of getting another mower September-October is the "buyer's market" for ZTR's. I bought my 2012 Pro-Turn 100 XDZ in mid-September(just before the 2013 models are delivered shortly after Thanksgiving) and saved over $1,000 on it(closer to $1,300). If you can wait until then I'm willing to bet that you could get into the 52" ZT HD for about $300-$400 more than the ZT XL instead of the current $900 difference. Just a suggestion:0)

BTW, I forgot to answer your previous questions. My budget is low $5K range, but I'd love to go lower if possible. It seems I can't really do that and get a hydrotranny that people trust for long term use, a frame and engine that will take some rough use, and a fabbed deck that many think is important. I have about 1.5 acres, and much of it is pretty rough, so I'm concerned about ruggedness. Of course, I could fix that with some topsoil too :).

I will consider the timing on the buy. My 20 y.o. Cub Cadet 1730 lawn tractor is on it's last legs. Then again, with a little work, I could put my 1950's Gravely Model L back into service for a month or so :).

I don't quite know what is going on with the pricing right now at my local dealer. They list both of the ZT HD 52" models (one with a 23HP Kawasaki, one with a 25 hp Kohler 7000 Series Pro engine) at $5099, down from a previous $5729. This may just be a typical, all year reduction from MSRP. Or are they already reducing the price near the end of the season?

Opinions on that price ($5099) and how much I might be able to take off of it with dealing, now or in 4-6 weeks, are appreciated.

dj, how did you determine what to offer?

BTW, I just found a thread from 2 years ago on TractorByNet by someone that lives just a few miles from me who was looking at the same exact model, looking to by it at the same dealer who's very local to me. In that thread (2012 Gravley ZT HD 52 ZTR), it looks like your advice is that the $200 off the $5099 price (same as 2 years ago) that he was able to broker was probably a good place to deal. Crazy coincidence in one way, but kinda makes sense as that dealer that is close only sells Gravely and Woods.
 
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djdicetn

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

BTW, I forgot to answer your previous questions. My budget is low $5K range, but I'd love to go lower if possible. It seems I can't really do that and get a hydrotranny that people trust for long term use, a frame and engine that will take some rough use, and a fabbed deck that many think is important. I have about 1.5 acres, and much of it is pretty rough, so I'm concerned about ruggedness. Of course, I could fix that with some topsoil too :).

I will consider the timing on the buy. My 20 y.o. Cub Cadet 1730 lawn tractor is on it's last legs. Then again, with a little work, I could put my 1950's Gravely Model L back into service for a month or so :).

I don't quite know what is going on with the pricing right now at my local dealer. They list both of the ZT HD 52" models (one with a 23HP Kawasaki, one with a 25 hp Kohler 7000 Series Pro engine) at $5099, down from a previous $5729. This may just be a typical, all year reduction from MSRP. Or are they already reducing the price near the end of the season?

Opinions on that price ($5099) and how much I might be able to take off of it with dealing, now or in 4-6 weeks, are appreciated.

dj, how did you determine what to offer?

BTW, I just found a thread from 2 years ago on TractorByNet by someone that lives just a few miles from me who was looking at the same exact model, looking to by it at the same dealer who's very local to me. In that thread (2012 Gravley ZT HD 52 ZTR), it looks like your advice is that the $200 off the $5099 price (same as 2 years ago) that he was able to broker was probably a good place to deal. Crazy coincidence in one way, but kinda makes sense as that dealer that is close only sells Gravely and Woods.

The current pricing($5,099) that you are seeing is Gravely's "Haggle Free Pricing" that is the same at all Gravely Dealers(even mine here in Nashville, TN). To me it really represents Gravely's "MSRP", but the "Was $5,279" on the ZT HD 52 is simply a marketing strategy that makes you think you are getting an already reduced price...but I would not consider this to be an end-of-season price. Something I didn't mention that was different for my purchase....I had $10,000 in a retirement savings account from a previous employer's Early Retirement Offer, and my wife & I had agreed to use that money for my ZTR "retirement investment". This allowed me to make "cash sale price" offers which you most likely cannot do. Regardless of what others may tell you....0% Financing is NOT "free" and usually about 50% of the "dealer cost" to the finance company is included in the sales price and about 50% the dealer "eats as less profit". Bottom line the normal "cost" to the dealer for financing his customers is(based upon my research) somewhere around an average of $300-$400. Keep that in mind when you purchase using a 0% Finance option. Let me describe exactly what pricing I saw in mid-September 2012 on my Gravely:

1)The 2012 MSRP on my 52" Pro-Turn 100 XDZ was $7,199 plus tax(that comes to approx. $7,782.93 with taxes).
2)The dealer's end-of-season "Clearance Price" was $7,056($147/month for 48 months). This was a "decent" price at approx 10%($726.93) off of the MSRP. This was very tempting, as my max budget was $7,000.
3)I counter-offered my dealer $6,800 out-the-door cash sales price and offered to pick the ZTR up to save the dealer the cost of delivering it(I live about 40 miles from the dealer). This was only about $256 less than his "0% Finance Clearance Price, but he didn't even hesitate to accept my offer. I'm certain that the cash sale influenced his decision.
4)Also, the exact same Gravely model that I was buying was going up $300 for 2013, so if I look at my "deal" I saved $982.93 off the 2012 MSRP plus taxes and another $300 for the 2013 price increase totaling $1,282.93 savings(approx. 17% off MSRP). The 2014 Pro-Turn's Haggle Free Price is $7,699(the 100 XDZ's seem to increase $200-$300 each year).

Sooooooo, now for my recommendations on your ZT HD 52(assuming you will be taking advantage of the 48 month 0% Financing). I'm not sure what your taxes are, but in TN it is 7%(considered a "luxury item") and a $80 Single Use Tax. You can ask any local ZTR dealer what the tax rate is and it will help you calculate your counter-offer to include taxes. If I were you and I were buying right now I would tell the dealer that I cannot afford more than $5,000 and that would include taxes, title and delivery. That would be a $99 savings PLUS saving the taxes(at the TN Sales tax rates that would be around $585.93 in savings or approx. 10.5%) and would be a fair price to offer. If I waited until mid-September, I would offer $4,800 OTD and be open to negotiate some. At $4,800(again based upon TN Sales Taxes), that would represent a savings of approx. $785.93(14%) which along with the 0% financing would be a very good deal on that ZT HD 52. I drive a hard bargain don't I:0)

Bottom line, anything between $4,800 and $5,000 OTD would keep you in your budget range and you would be hard pressed to find any other ZTR comparable to the ZT HD for that kind of money. Good luck negotiating your purchase and I hope your dealer will make you a happy Gravely owner!!!!
 

alteredz

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

The current pricing($5,099) that you are seeing is Gravely's "Haggle Free Pricing" that is the same at all Gravely Dealers(even mine here in Nashville, TN). To me it really represents Gravely's "MSRP", but the "Was $5,279" on the ZT HD 52 is simply a marketing strategy that makes you think you are getting an already reduced price...but I would not consider this to be an end-of-season price. Something I didn't mention that was different for my purchase....I had $10,000 in a retirement savings account from a previous employer's Early Retirement Offer, and my wife & I had agreed to use that money for my ZTR "retirement investment". This allowed me to make "cash sale price" offers which you most likely cannot do. Regardless of what others may tell you....0% Financing is NOT "free" and usually about 50% of the "dealer cost" to the finance company is included in the sales price and about 50% the dealer "eats as less profit". Bottom line the normal "cost" to the dealer for financing his customers is(based upon my research) somewhere around an average of $300-$400. Keep that in mind when you purchase using a 0% Finance option. Let me describe exactly what pricing I saw in mid-September 2012 on my Gravely:

1)The 2012 MSRP on my 52" Pro-Turn 100 XDZ was $7,199 plus tax(that comes to approx. $7,782.93 with taxes).
2)The dealer's end-of-season "Clearance Price" was $7,056($147/month for 48 months). This was a "decent" price at approx 10%($726.93) off of the MSRP. This was very tempting, as my max budget was $7,000.
3)I counter-offered my dealer $6,800 out-the-door cash sales price and offered to pick the ZTR up to save the dealer the cost of delivering it(I live about 40 miles from the dealer). This was only about $256 less than his "0% Finance Clearance Price, but he didn't even hesitate to accept my offer. I'm certain that the cash sale influenced his decision.
4)Also, the exact same Gravely model that I was buying was going up $300 for 2013, so if I look at my "deal" I saved $982.93 off the 2012 MSRP plus taxes and another $300 for the 2013 price increase totaling $1,282.93 savings(approx. 17% off MSRP). The 2014 Pro-Turn's Haggle Free Price is $7,699(the 100 XDZ's seem to increase $200-$300 each year).

Thanks for that detail - I really would rather use the 0% financing in this situation. But I understand how that's costing me probably $3-400 over paying with cash. The MSRP game is pretty much what I thought, based on what you describe - kinda shady IMO. But I guess it's become more common.

Sooooooo, now for my recommendations on your ZT HD 52(assuming you will be taking advantage of the 48 month 0% Financing). I'm not sure what your taxes are, but in TN it is 7%(considered a "luxury item") and a $80 Single Use Tax. You can ask any local ZTR dealer what the tax rate is and it will help you calculate your counter-offer to include taxes. If I were you and I were buying right now I would tell the dealer that I cannot afford more than $5,000 and that would include taxes, title and delivery. That would be a $99 savings PLUS saving the taxes(at the TN Sales tax rates that would be around $585.93 in savings or approx. 10.5%) and would be a fair price to offer. If I waited until mid-September, I would offer $4,800 OTD and be open to negotiate some. At $4,800(again based upon TN Sales Taxes), that would represent a savings of approx. $785.93(14%) which along with the 0% financing would be a very good deal on that ZT HD 52. I drive a hard bargain don't I:0)

Bottom line, anything between $4,800 and $5,000 OTD would keep you in your budget range and you would be hard pressed to find any other ZTR comparable to the ZT HD for that kind of money. Good luck negotiating your purchase and I hope your dealer will make you a happy Gravely owner!!!!

Our MD governor, OWE-Malley (I voted for his opposition in both elections) raised the sales tax from 5% to 6% soon after taking office. At least we don't have a luxury tax on this type of purchase or a "Single Use Tax". So taxes on $5099 would be ~$306. Plus the 0% financing requires a $125 document fee. I'm thinking I may try to get them to throw in the mulching kit and then shoot for $5000 out the door. I probably won't get that, but it's a start.
 

alteredz

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  • / Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 Pro?)
Re: Looking to buy new Gravely ZT XL 54" -which engine? (Kawasaki FR or Kohler 7000 P

I went to the fair tonight and we stopped by the area the vendor was set up at several times over the course of the evening - never saw a soul. I did see the ZT HD 60. Impressive machine, 0.2 hrs on it. I fell in love with the Wood's ZTR, but that thing is probably over twice the dough and way over kill!

Checked out my shed opening and room in there - the 60" would fit with about 5" per side through the double doors (love these Amish-built sheds - built like a house!) and moving some junk in there around will give plenty of room to get around it once parked.

I need to walk around the yard and see if there are any places that extra 8" will cause a problem over the 52".

I was hoping to see more hours on the meter to be able to maybe deal on a demo with some hours. This thing is brand spanking new. $100 more to go to the 60" with the 24hp FR730V Kawasaki over the 52" with the 23hp Kawasaki. I'm thinking if I can talk them down a couple hundred I could convince them that dropping it off at my place at the end of the week (after the fair is over) would be no more work or cost than loading it up to take back to their dealership. Since I've decided to use the 0% financing (they'll be taking a hit due to that) and it's brand new, there's probably little incentive for them to really deal on this thing. Wish me luck.

Definitely going with the Kawasaki (original question on this thread) whether it's this one or another HD. Quieter and dependable sealed it for me. My hearing is bad enough as it is so why chance more damage? (Tinnitus) Yes, I use good ear protection cutting the grass.
 
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