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Some of us wondered if anyone has purchased any of the 3 EFI (electronic fuel injection) Cub Cadet mdels named in the title of this thread. Please share and tell all if you have, or know of one in your area.

The main Portland OR dealer has the XT2 679 cc efi model on the showroom floor and says he has sold some.

Just purchased a xt2 yesterday, it will be delivered Tuesday morning{5/9). My 1170 died after 16 years. Can't wait to try the efi.

h2...thanx, Give us your impressions when you can,

Mower delivered at 9am. Due to frost warnings, temps were in the low to mid 40's. It started up with no fuss 2-3 times. Went out around noon to mow. Ran fine(of course it did,it's new). The xt seems to turn tighter than the 1170. Like that you can mow in reverse. Will have to get used to the reverse pedal. Very happy so far.

Great, keep it coming

Just did the recommended 5 hr. oil change, changed filter too. All is running great

Good, thanks

Please provide more impressions if able.

Compared to the 1170, the xt2 is bigger and more powerful. This also means that it uses more gas. All together I am very satisfied with the performance of the xt2 with efi.

SORRY to interject, BUT I think ( M/M ) is seeking everything pertaining to your opinions of the EFI system,.. in particular, along with the rest of us, there's not a lot of opinions posted about this newer system.

I too am interested in this as well. I am not sure of anywhere short of the Deere X590 that you see an EFI in a riding mower type unit, especially considering that the EFI Cubs start under $2K. This year, Cut released the XT2 SLX50 which is their LX50 with the v-twin EFI and the other XT2 upgraded bits (armrests, wheel bearing instead of bushings). If the SLX has a better tranny like a K58 or K66, it would make a heck of a rider!

At the $1800 price these Cub Cadets "have" to contain the lower end big box components ...(like deck and hardware?), BUT the throttle body FI remains a draw (to me). If I had the room in my garage I would get one just to try the FI. Boobala (our archivist and reporter extaordinaire), sent me an article which mentioned a sidelight. With an ECU (engine command unit) it is easy to control RPM so no need for mechanical governor AND cold starts are just part of the same system without a manual cable choke or bimetallic auto choke which may corrode. (I have both without problems BTW). Remember , this is OLD car technology ....Honey I shrunk the carb.

NO, I have no affiliation with Cub Cadet. My observation is that this device is for market penetration. Home Depot may not even know how to sell these new machinnes.

Pick up a XT1 42 EFI on March 10th. I'll post back when I get an idea of what it's like.

HS, We wait for your report. Meanwhile I poked around a little more on the state of "single point" or "throttle body" FI. I did this trying to judge this entry at the expected price point with "new" (for "basic" riders) tech. In another thread I asked for input on the "typical" carburetor fuel system "price" owners or pros experience to compare it with the likely "cost" Cub has passed on for the FI at the $1800 advertised showroom price. No response so far on what a carb, fuel pump, governor costs.

Recap: In India they make an upgraded version of the older Royal Enfield motorcycle (? 350-500 cc , 15 - 30.5 cu in). The owner's manual (2005)is online and it is very good with pictures, reminding me of some J Deere manuals I have seen. This bike has MIL (malfunction indicator light) which is a supplement to the more sophisticated digital fault codes accessible with a laptop. So the remote Indian owner can look at "blink codes" to begin troubleshooting a problem, and keep his family vehicle running.

Newer: A current site sells Throttle body systems for classic American cars for $695. The systems are "mapped" for the application (FI works properly over RPM and owner demand conditions).

Another company, in Michigan, sells several versions of a throttle body FI system adaptable to a wide range of small engines. This site is quite nerdy and intimidating because it uses electronic jargon to help the owner with his adaptation. But it is IMO the best comparison source of what Walbro has done outfitting the new Cub Cadets. This company mentions Briggs Stratton without a specific example.

The hardware offered seems a little flimsy , but functional . It includes harnessing, sensors, throttle body (good looking casting)and free software download. The software includes an optional MIL (blink code) output of the diagnostic fault codes .The harness includes a connector to hook to laptop if desired. All for $495 with support. This system is shown installed on a 350cc (15 cu in) scooter ,but versions are available for larger engines. Specific fuel mapping is left to the buyer.

So what? Well to peel off the pricing layer Cub has likely put on the FI one needs something. At $1800 and using the $495 above I will leave it to you knowledgeable readers to judge . To me the effort Walbro and International Harvester (Cub owner?) have spent to "develop" FI to the 2 Cub engines was significant and at $1800 they have agreed to swallow, or recoup later, the non- recurring cost. To me it is likely the FI components already existed in China, hopefully in Taiwan. So the joint development was to ruggedize the installation and map the fuel requirements. What about the engines...?

Will the single be like the Harbor Freight single (haters and lovers), selling for ?, or will it disintegrate? What about the V engine with 42" deck? Lot's of exposure here for Cub Cadet. Gutsy IMO.

I plan to call/visit my local dealers, maybe take some pics . Whadda ya think?

Edit: They got grass in China? Emerging middle class. Maybe the Cubs are total rebadges of existing Chinese riders?

The EFI Cubs look exactly like the non EFI Cubs made in the USA, so they're not rebadged Chinese units. The engines are Chinese, which could be good or bad. China makes pure junk but they also male Apple computers and phones and Panasonic Lumix Cameras among a lot of other superior quality goods. It just depends on who's making it to what specification. The Walbro EFI unit is probably cheaper to make than any carburetor and implement. As long as the sensors are there, it's plug and play. There's a lot more auto control and accuracy inherent in the system. You can't buy a carbureted car engine anymore and there's a good reason for that. EFI has proven to be more reliable, cheaper, with more HP and more fuel economy. It's a proven technology over the last 50+ years.

And if the EFI motor craps out it's easily replaceable with any other CC motor as the rest of the rider is basic CC.

I would have jumped all over the 42" with the big twin EFI. However, Home Depot screwed up our carpet install and the manager offered me a free bagger if I bought the lawn mower as compensation... For $349 off I'll try the XT1!

agree, keep us posted

While still on a roll....the major cost pieces of the Cub in my wild estimate:

The Cub transaxle as Tuff Torque k 46 seems around $600 new retail , so perhaps $450

The Cub engine using the Harbor Freight Predators as back-to-back book marks: the single @ $400 retail next to the twin @ $650 retail=Cub engine @ $500.

The Cub fuel injection system...no input from readers on deletion cost of carburetion. Carbs "seem" to run from $20 for Chinese Tecumseh clones to $225 for US OEM propane compatible so I picked a $50 bogey for the carb, a $15 bogey for the vacuum gas pump and $50 for the governor. This elimination from the earlier fuel injection components estimate makes the Cub FI cost around $350 more .

Chunks total $1300 still needing chassis, wheels , cowl, etc etc and assembly. Think they can do it for $1800? And this without any development cost amortized. Your understanding and constructive comments are welcomed , as usual.:smile:

I think your figurin' is pretty close. The Xt1 with the 18hp Kohler carb model is $1499 and the Xt1 with the 547cc EFI is $1749, so EFI adds $250. That's the only difference it seems between the units, (the motors.)

Yep, The FI 's got to cost more IMO. We need some usage time and reports. Still need to go look/touch here.

Somewhere I saw owner expectation that the ethanol/gas attack or varnish would end with elimination of the carb bowl. But that is unlikely as the gas tank will still remain as a source of problems. Also the injector (singular) living in the throttle body may have even smaller holes in the spray head than the carb passages . (Also the little strainer screen) When I spoke to the Portland tech he said the only problem so far with the Cadet he has seen was a plugged fuel pump. A pump for throttle body spray has milder pressure than the multi port type on commercial mowers, but still is very busy. And the failure of fuel to reach the injector may not set a fault code, so critics are correct that these FI systems still have difficult problems to diagnose, but any more difficult than carb models?

Ramblings...No H Depot close has the FI units. There may be several in Portland . The H Depot site shows the single cyl only FI with "1007 testimonials," but it is bogus . After reading along I saw fine print that the testimonials are for the Enduro XT1. Another "catch me if you can." Nothing on the "big twin " FI on H Depot site . The non- H Depot local dealer listed in the Cub Cadet zip code finder does not have any CCadet and seemed unfamiliar with the FI altogether. Typical, I guess, for smaller dealers. The spec sheet on H Depot does not list HP rating for the single. Nothing in the ad specific to the FI feature.

motoman said:

Ramblings...No H Depot close has the FI units. There may be several in Portland . The H Depot site shows the single cyl only FI with "1007 testimonials," but it is bogus . After reading along I saw fine print that the testimonials are for the Enduro XT1. Another "catch me if you can." Nothing on the "big twin " FI on H Depot site . The non- H Depot local dealer listed in the Cub Cadet zip code finder does not have any CCadet and seemed unfamiliar with the FI altogether. Typical, I guess, for smaller dealers. The spec sheet on H Depot does not list HP rating for the single. Nothing in the ad specific to the FI feature.

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You are correct that Home Depot's ratings system is flawed. Many times I have seen, especially with mowers, that the ratings listed are for models with different engines. I was looking at Cub Cadet's website the other day and they offer the SLX50 which is new for this year and has the twin EFI and all of the other XT2 bits, but the SLX54 has a Kohler engine and fab deck. I then called a local Cub Cadet dealer and they said that they won't stock the SLX50 and that I would have to order it sight unseen. I would consider taking a chance on the EFI in this model but I would have liked to see a K58 trans at the least in it.

Yes, the testimonials...while I do not rely totally on them , they are better than nothing. Always skeptical I also read the Sears, Amazon, and H Frt reviews.
The Sears are weak and short. The Amazon worth reading. The H Frt have the most credibility IMO because they have published a couple of my critical reviews. If a person is familiar with the subject matter it helps. Also I have seen seen some surprisingly good critical reviews published by the latter 2 which even might stop some from buying the product. Those I like. Usually that variety of review is not just a one liner. So we must decide if the H Depot testimonials are "flawed," or tweaked by corporate lawyers to be just inside "fraud."

No doubt most big box buyers could care less if the mower has FI and do not care to know. Only the enthusiast is looking for the diamond in rough, if this FI proves to be so in the entry models.:2cents:

Firstly it looks like Kohler have the EFI manuals on line
Secondly it costs a **** load of money to tool up for a new product so the costing are a waste of time
Thirdly going to retailers forums to get an honest review of a product they sell is a stupid thing to do as it is limited to the models they sell & moderated by the shop.
The best place to go is consummer advocate web sites where all the people who feel agreived can vent their spleens.
People will only wax lyrical about things like mowers on their personal ego space ( feaces book ) to show every one how smart their purchase was.
However on a site that is not directly connected to their ego they will let fly.
We have several sits down here and we are a tiny country of complacient fools so in the USA there must be hundreds of sites like
Product Review https://www.productreview.com.au/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAieTUBRCaARIsAHeLDCQGQxru_i56S5pncej0IQb9pd_iXpOGXEu8_YJBNZ4hVdIhGYufUecaAtBEEALw_wcB

Not Good Enough http://www.notgoodenough.org/

Choice ( a consumer magazine ) https://www.choice.com.au/about-us/products-and-services/top-product-reviews

Whirlpool http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2251950

Just to name a few.

Read and sift, Read and sift. Mix in several tablespoons of experience. Hope lady luck shines.


Edit: FACTOIDS...the XT2LX42 EFI (twin)has dropped off the CC website ad . I "chatted" with CC ...the official word is "all sold out, but may be some in local stock." Hmmm..

Also the model designations should include "EFI" to avoid confusion with the older models.

I would absolutely believe that the EFI twin with a 42" deck would be sold out. That is HUGE power for a 42 inch deck mower. I would have bought that except that I had a free bagger deal with HD and the twin is an XT2 only model so dealer only. The one reviewer on Youtube said he mows at half throttle with the Xt1 single EFi and has plenty of power so we'll see. HD says mine came in so I need to arrange a day to drive the 200 miles round trip to go pick 'er up. Soon.

Also, don't forget there was zero tooling costs here: They went to china and said make us an engine with Walbro EFi and we'll buy it and slap it in our already tooled mower units. That's why they are china engines. Hopefully they picked a decent manufacturer. (Though the way the cheap end of B&S and Kohler are these days anything can't be much worse...)

And Ontario, OR just got like 5 of the XT1 EFI units in today. (One of them's mine ) So if your headed to Boise anytime soon they're there.

So we do not expect to see the twin at ""big boxes" even though priced (originally) at big box level? With lathes (came close a while back ) I found that there is a large sourcing group in mainland China across to Taiwan apparently building to very similar design drawings.The Taiwan units better made and more expensive. I wonder if the CC twin has dna from the Harbor Freight twin , which (if one believes testimonies) can be a desirable engine. If we see the CC website ad appear again for the twin at a higher price it may be a clue (hey, it's under priced). It seems the west coasters do not have the high selection/volume of the US heartland. Re development costs...Chinese government absorbs huge amounts of industry start-up costs. Also there has been a large Chinese motorcycle industry for some time. Did Walbro know the Chinese "clone" was coming anyway and sell the design, or perhaps bikes there already had a lesser throttle body FI?

I would like to drive the twin.

Edit: Re "power" it seems odd there is no hp rating in the specs and the "chat" man had no clue.

motoman said:

So we do not expect to see the twin at ""big boxes" even though priced (originally) at big box level? With lathes (came close a while back ) I found that there is a large sourcing group in mainland China across to Taiwan apparently building to very similar design drawings.The Taiwan units better made and more expensive. I wonder if the CC twin has dna from the Harbor Freight twin , which (if one believes testimonies) can be a desirable engine. If we see the CC website ad appear again for the twin at a higher price it may be a clue (hey, it's under priced). It seems the west coasters do not have the high selection/volume of the US heartland. Re development costs...Chinese government absorbs huge amounts of industry start-up costs. Also there has been a large Chinese motorcycle industry for some time. Did Walbro know the Chinese "clone" was coming anyway and sell the design, or perhaps bikes there already had a lesser throttle body FI?

I would like to drive the twin.

Edit: Re "power" it seems odd there is no hp rating in the specs and the "chat" man had no clue.

Click to expand...

Motoman, ....... I swear IF, I had the bucks I would buy you 2 of those mowers, 1 to run the piss outa, and 1 to take apart to find out what makes it "tick", .. just to keep your sanity, I think YOUR persistance in these EFI engines is UN-matchable !! AND YES !! I'm constantly watching for ANY new info. I can run across to help satisfy your insatiable appetite for the info. you so desire ! ..Boo ..:thumbsup:

Boobala, You know by now I do not have enough to do... The old DYT 4000 works, and the newer Husqy is good so I can only armchair, but I would be sorely tempted into one of the CC's , like you say, for reliability and to tell all. Especially the success or failure of home enthusiasts to fix the FI when it acts up. It might be interesting to have a shootout of hours spent with the problems wrestling with carb vs FI.

I bet there are many car buffs who read this site and many who can use the OBD II hand held diagnostic "tablets." It IS a leap from reading a fault code to fixing it, but perhaps there is over reaction to the "complexity" factor with FI. Shotgunning is a curse we (probably) all have done. That is getting close to a problem and then buying unneeded (expensive) replacement parts. With many more candidates (sensors)in the FI it could become a frustration, and forum members have confirmed this. So the discussion will go on. If CC is listening ....BREAK WITH CURRENT INDUSTRY TRENDS AND PUBLISH A FACTORY MANUAL FOR THE throttle body fi LIKE THE ONES AVAILABLE FOR THE COMMERICIAL, PORT TYPE FI!! Oh, and btw, include MIL fault BLINK readout so homeowners don't have to use a laptop, and have a chance.:2cents:

motoman said:

Boobala, You know by now I do not have enough to do... The old DYT 4000 works, and the newer Husqy is good so I can only armchair, but I would be sorely tempted into one of the CC's , like you say, for reliability and to tell all. Especially the success or failure of home enthusiasts to fix the FI when it acts up. It might be interesting to have a shootout of hours spent with the problems wrestling with carb vs FI.

I bet there are many car buffs who read this site and many who can use the OBD II hand held diagnostic "tablets." It IS a leap from reading a fault code to fixing it, but perhaps there is over reaction to the "complexity" factor with FI. Shotgunning is a curse we (probably) all have done. That is getting close to a problem and then buying unneeded (expensive) replacement parts. With many more candidates (sensors)in the FI it could become a frustration, and forum members have confirmed this. So the discussion will go on. If CC is listening ....BREAK WITH CURRENT INDUSTRY TRENDS AND PUBLISH A FACTORY MANUAL FOR THE throttle body fi LIKE THE ONES AVAILABLE FOR THE COMMERICIAL, PORT TYPE FI!! Oh, and btw, include MIL fault BLINK readout so homeowners don't have to use a laptop, and have a chance.:2cents:

Click to expand...

Fuel injection is easy peasy. There is only a distrust of it because its an unknown. I did the injectors on a 1990 Chevy Vette 350. It was pretty much simple. Simple to diagnose and simple to fix. With the throttle body its even easier as there is only 1 injector. There is no mystery to it, it either works which it mostly does and if it's it not, there are only about 3 things that can be off. But you don't actually fix anything, you just figure out what part is bad and replace it. (Apologies if this is common knowledge.)

Like I said I'm not at all worried about the EFI, I'm worried about the cylinder coming the through the side of the engine!

And they don't publish the HP ratings because they can't sell a $1795 mower with same HP as their $$2500 mower, nobody would buy the non efi units. That's my guess. (Or they don't know what the HP rating is, that's another possibility.)

HS, I think you may be right with the HP rating. CC hesitant to publish more HP on the FI and hurt the regular (carb) XT line.

Re ease of t-shooting FI I wish those who have voiced doubts would give examples of DIFFICULT problems. Here speaks an AMATEUR, not a pro by any means but a couple of examples I can think of which perhaps show fault codes are not always easy to "read."

The CA car "check engine" light is on and points to the EGR valve (it opens at low rpm to let exhaust into the intake manifold). The problem is finally traced to a plugged metal tube from the exhaust, not an electronic component, but the ECU set a fault code.

The OBD II hand held code reader says misfire, cylinder X. Could be a number of things. It is simply a bad plug.

Local tech in outdoor equipment story. A CC FI model comes in and will not run. (Could not talk to him much - tel con) Finally they find a plugged fuel pump. Unlikely any fault code set on this one, and the problem is not helped with a fault code.

On line...a commercial FI unit has a bad engine temp sensor, but no fault code is set. (So this leaves the problem up to general knowledge and tech skill.} It is suspected the engine is overheating so the temp sensor is replaced. The explanation was that the ECU could not "see" the overheat point which was out of expected overheat range. The engine would barely run until the ECU supplied a dummy heat input to the fuel system which would then improve the fuel mixture, but not fix it. This one sounds very difficult and could easily cause shotgunning.

Also the FI electronic systems demand 12V input and perfect ground connections, so batteries and charging systems must be good

Hope this will open up discussion for those holding back their favorite FI stories.

I just spoke to a local dealer and he confirmed that the twin EFI with 42" deck is not available for order right now. Also, they have opted not to stock the SLX50 due to concerns regarding the new quick attach blade design (fear of liability).

Mike, Kinda makes one wonder if unavailability is only "sold out."

motoman said:

Mike, Kinda makes one wonder if unavailability is only "sold out."

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In searching for the 42" twin, one site listed it as being discontinued. That may go in line with what someone was saying about a change in engine manufacturers from a Chinese based firm to a Korean or Indonesian one. It's a shame that more people don't get onto YouTube and do reviews and overviews of all these machines. Even if the manufacturer would spend a little bit of time and money showing off each and every model and what it is capable of, I am sure it would clear up many consumer's questions and help to increase sales.

The "opportunity" in a very competitive field is to pull off an entry model with something "new." Information about source change is discouraging. Thanks for the info. So the single lives on?

Edit: Browsed the youtubes on CC EFI machines.

The single is the one reviewed by several after initial purchase. (a.) owner(s) talk about half throttle operation due to available power. (b) owner remarks on using very little gas . (c) the little screen is shown along with "bluetooth" availability to owner's manual. (d) vibration (as expected) at low rpm smoothes out during operation. This model is still offered.

Since Kohler produces the CC carb versions it would be interesting to know if they were consulted on the twin. One feature of throttle body is that it is easily adapted to existing intake manifolds (engines) . The Michigan site selling the FI emphasizes the relative ease adapting to engines. But how does substituting FI straight across affect an adopted engine? Heat comes to mind and increased torque/HP on exisiting piston, ring, rod, etc. Also leaner overall mixture. Sending the same design to different sources may not improve the breed? Wha' happen with the twin?

So I got the 547cc XT1 EFI all put together and fired 'er up a few days ago. The EFI is just flawless. You push the button and it starts. No dorkin' around with any chokes, etc. It starts at full throttle, half throttle or idle. I let it warm up for about a minute and I was off. The manual says to run at full power for mowing so that's what I did. There's plenty of power. I guess you could run it at less power but I don't know why you would. It's very torque-y and smooth. I got .6 of an hour on it and so far so good.

Really nothing to report other than an engine that just works with no fuss at all.

Sounds good. Keep us posted!

Boobala has just enlightened me on a fuel injection application. Vanguard uses so called "open loop" fuel injection on its line of engines powering generators (and others?) To me this means no oxy sensor and less ability to keep fuel mixture "perfect" like autos, but probably better than carburetors. Keep the comments coming and we will all advance from the "mushroom" state of darkness.

I've just taken delivery of an XT1 42 with the 547cc EFI engine. As was previously noted, you push the button (for 1.5 seconds) and then the engine fires up. I assume the delay is to build up fuel pressure for the injection system.

The Walbro announcement of the Cub Cadet EFI system said that they had developed an EEM ("Electronic Engine Management") system for Cub. Here's the page which describes it, and it uses an oxygen sensor- which means the EFI is adjusting the mixture properly all the time. It's certainly a 'closed loop' system, not just something that sprays fuel into the intake port.

http://www.walbro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Walbro_EEM_Injection_Mower_PS_EN.pdf

Carburetors are the most troublesome, trouble prone, finicky, unreliable things on small engines. I would no sooner want another lawn tractor with a carburetor than I'd want a car with one, which is to say 'never again'. And no more hokey governor with levers and springs and such to keep the engine speed steady under load! Another troublesome gimmick disposed of! Imagine, with an actual engine management system you use 25% less gas than with some old gizmo using tiny passages and bleed holes and metering screws and a little float working an inlet valve etc. etc. It goes to show how poor a job the old timey carburetor does at supplying the correct amount of fuel needed by the engine when the actual correct amount is so much less.

I've only uncrated my Cub in the last couple of days and run it a couple times yesterday to start breaking it in... but the engine starts up fine and runs perfectly. I am not the least bit concerned about the EFI. My choice for the same money was between the smaller EFI engine or the bigger V twin with a carburetor and I wouldn't change if I could do it over. It's going to be a few weeks before I need to do my first mowing and I'm looking forward to it.

motoman said:

Boobala has just enlightened me on a fuel injection application. Vanguard uses so called "open loop" fuel injection on its line of engines powering generators (and others?) To me this means no oxy sensor and less ability to keep fuel mixture "perfect" like autos, but probably better than carburetors. Keep the comments coming and we will all advance from the "mushroom" state of darkness.

Click to expand...

Vanguard is now using a closed-loop system and claiming a 25% savings in fuel usage compared to the same engine with carburetion. They offer (or did offer) 810cc engines rated at 24 and 26hp; they rate their EFI version at 28hp.
Very interesting video here; watch it and see if you still prefer a carburetor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=123&v=9o4OtJ9hv7M

While Cub's system is Walbro and not identical to Vanguard, I'm confident it's comparable. They indicate that it also has onboard diagnostics, which seems to have been a concern of some people.

I can already see the light. Keep it coming and we will bring along the generations of carb enthusiasts with us. I am glad to hear "closed loop." It seems primitive to run a generator open loop ,especially in view of ? typical? high usage hours and emissions. My carburetted Intek 24 on the heavier Husqy uses a lot of gas !

Edit" My thread response 18 above on the "chunks of cost" was goofy on engine cost....H Frt is still selling its Predator @ $99 and , love it or hate it , that is a LOW number. Time for Trump "dumping police" to check that out.... but seriously, it may play a big role in the intro pricing, whatever.:smile:

Really, compared to EFI, a carburetor is brain dead. It guesses how much gas is needed based on how much air is rushing through it and some other things. All those little gizmos and springs and floats and such. Throw a load on it so the RPM's drop and another little gizmo pulls on the throttle to speed it back up. Get it out of whack and the engine will speed up and slow down, over and over. I've always hated governors.
I'm sure there are lots of people who would say how and why they prefer a carburetor to EFI and that's fine, whatever floats your boat. But when all else is equal and the EFI system makes more power while using 25% less gas, and runs and starts better, it's an easy choice for me.

Last year both my snowblower and my old Wheel Horse had problems where I had to keep the choke on to pull enough gas for them to run properly... but with the choke on, not as much air gets into the engine so it runs OK but doesn't make full power. Once in a while one or the other of those two would start to flood out when the carb broke loose a speck of rust or something and the gas started flowing again and I'd have to hurry and open the choke, at least most of the way... for a while. I'm just tired of fighting with something that I can completely replace. Tractors and such are very cool but I've got way too much on my plate for another hobby. I just want to cut my grass!

It seems that the Vanguard system is possibly somewhat more elaborate then the Walbro used on the Cubs. Vanguard uses a crankshaft position sensor and maybe one other that Walbro doesn't. Perhaps the Vanguard system is also tweaking the spark timing based on load, I don't know. But I'm happy with what I have - so far, and hopefully going forward.

motoman said:

I can already see the light. Keep it coming and we will bring along the generations of carb enthusiasts with us. I am glad to hear "closed loop." It seems primitive to run a generator open loop ,especially in view of ? typical? high usage hours and emissions. My carburetted Intek 24 on the heavier Husqy uses a lot of gas !

Edit" My thread response 18 above on the "chunks of cost" was goofy on engine cost....H Frt is still selling its Predator @ $99 and , love it or hate it , that is a LOW number. Time for Trump "dumping police" to check that out.... but seriously, it may play a big role in the intro pricing, whatever.:smile:

Click to expand...

I was surprised to learn someplace that there's a very well-known Honda engine (GX series I think) on which the patents have expired - so China Inc is cranking them out left and right. They're known for taking others' work and making it cheaper and selling it, just like with a sliding miter saw I bought which turned out to be an absolute clone of a Makita sliding miter saw that sells for about 3x the price. As for the GX engines, I assumed China had just pilfered the design and started making them, but at least if the patents had expired, that's not quite so heinous.

bullrider said:

I was surprised to learn someplace that there's a very well-known Honda engine (GX series I think) on which the patents have expired - so China Inc is cranking them out left and right. They're known for taking others' work and making it cheaper and selling it, just like with a sliding miter saw I bought which turned out to be an absolute clone of a Makita sliding miter saw that sells for about 3x the price. As for the GX engines, I assumed China had just pilfered the design and started making them, but at least if the patents had expired, that's not quite so heinous.

Click to expand...

We are suffering a bit of mission creep here but the "trick" China uses to avoid paying patient license fees is to manufacture to order.
So te factories do not have a product line as such, they make what some Western Business man send over with a note , "make me 500,000 just like this cheap "
Then in order to avoid prosecution or bad publicity retailers like Wally of HF get a local USA importer to place the order so HF, Wallys can lie and say "Most of what we sell is locally sourced" and when the Mikata factory closes down because of the imports they can say "not our fault "

bertsmobile1 said:

We are suffering a bit of mission creep here but the "trick" China uses to avoid paying patient license fees is to manufacture to order.
So te factories do not have a product line as such, they make what some Western Business man send over with a note , "make me 500,000 just like this cheap "
Then in order to avoid prosecution or bad publicity retailers like Wally of HF get a local USA importer to place the order so HF, Wallys can lie and say "Most of what we sell is locally sourced" and when the Mikata factory closes down because of the imports they can say "not our fault "

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Still if you go to WM (or anywhere else, let's be fair) the products do say 'Made in China', whatever the claim of 'sourcing'.

Anyhow, back on the subject of the Cub Cadet and EFI, I think the biggest problem with it will prove to be fear of trying something different. Yes, you can fix a carburetor. (Probably.) Yes, you almost certainly will have to fix it. You may even end up buying a new one from... China!

We need some time for owners to face any problems with the new Walbro efi. Seems like CC should make some thoughtful decisions about spare part availability and diy support....like the MIL fault codes (my tractor is winking at me), and a way to interpret them. " Oh , my mower has a problem in the oxy sensor wiring circuit" ... or "the TPS is not putting out a proper signal. Here let me just get my digital volt meter (DVM) and check it out."

Note this is no more baffling than an undiscovered plugged passageway in a carburettor.

Seems like someone should become the go-to EFI guru in Australia. Just get the capital together and become a CC dealer. :thumbsup:

motoman said:

We need some time for owners to face any problems with the new Walbro efi. Seems like CC should make some thoughtful decisions about spare part availability and diy support....like the MIL fault codes (my tractor is winking at me), and a way to interpret them. " Oh , my mower has a problem in the oxy sensor wiring circuit" ... or "the TPS is not putting out a proper signal. Here let me just get my digital volt meter (DVM) and check it out."

Note this is no more baffling than an undiscovered plugged passageway in a carburettor.

Seems like someone should become the go-to EFI guru in Australia. Just get the capital together and become a CC dealer. :thumbsup:

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Well... I think they've been selling the EFI single cylinder version in the CC tractors for two years now. An oxygen sensor is an oxygen sensor. There's really no new 'tech' involved here, just putting it on a new machine that didn't have it before. Other than one reference I saw to a plugged screen in a fuel line, I've not happened across anything negative about these tractors. The fact that they've expanded the models where EFI is available and now added it to another engine tells me it's been pretty successful so far.

CC indicates that their system has onboard diagnostics and I can't imagine any such digital control system not having something that says when it is not getting a required signal, or a signal that is out of the normal range. I would bet that the diagnostics read out through the hour meter if you know how to trigger them. Could be as simple as pressing the start button X number of times and then holding it for a few seconds.

Most of us can't fix our own EFI systems, I'll allow... but we also can't fix our own TV's anymore. We used to be able to do so by replacing 'tubes'. I'm just as glad to have a TV I can't fix myself, that basically never needs to be fixed anyhow.

edit - I take that back about not fixing EFI's. I've only had two problems with components, those both being easily replaced throttle position sensors, and I did them myself after getting the code indicating what was wrong. Imagine if you could get a code saying 'tiny bit of grit plugging carburetor passage' or 'inlet valve float sticking'. Not gonna happen.

Amen! Those reluctant ones here will enjoy working with EFI once they try it. The "industry" has gradually brain washed many to thinking they cannot understand or work on "electronics......" Bolderdash! Just have the interest and it will come. The little dash readout on the CC is perfect for blink codes. This forum is a sanctuary for diy'ers. Just jump the first hurdle. CC , are you listening?

motoman said:

Amen! Those reluctant ones here will enjoy working with EFI once they try it. The "industry" has gradually brain washed many to thinking they cannot understand or work on "electronics......" Bolderdash! Just have the interest and it will come. The little dash readout on the CC is perfect for blink codes. This forum is a sanctuary for diy'ers. Just jump the first hurdle. CC , are you listening?

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I may play with that hour meter a bit and see if I can get it to show the codes. I'm sure that's how they'd do it. No hardware needed, they could diagnose the system just by pressing the start button.

Going way back to the GM mil fault codes on my 1985 Pont....Grounding two pins initiates the blink codes. My 1991 Nissan has a little (cigar box sized) ECU with a plastic screw on the back which is turned one way to initiate the fault blink codes. Maybe something simple on the CC connector if you can find it?

motoman said:

Going way back to the GM mil fault codes on my 1985 Pont....Grounding two pins initiates the blink codes. My 1991 Nissan has a little (cigar box sized) ECU with a plastic screw on the back which is turned one way to initiate the fault blink codes. Maybe something simple on the CC connector if you can find it?

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Well... I'm not inclined to go so far as unplugging anything, with my luck I'd break off a little interlock tab or something - or who knows what. I'll wait and see but I bet that hour meter would read out the codes. Nothing could be easier, quicker, or CHEAPER for CC than to just press a button and get any codes that exist on the LCD window.

I also have a Harley Sportster, bought used but I made sure that I got one which had fuel injection on it. On the HD forums a lot of the guys are scared of the EFI system, they'd say they'd rather take apart their own carburetor and tune the engine, and so forth. But really, I don't feel the need to 'tune' my bike any further. And after having a number of motorcycles over the years and fighting with them to get them started every spring, to press the button and have the engine fire and start on the first compression stroke is SO much better.

The CC doesn't have a crank sensor so it doesn't start up quite that instantly, but it does start on probably the 3rd compression stroke like clockwork, and stays running no matter where I have the throttle set.

Understand the reluctance.

I guess this forum needs a simplified breakdown of what is happening in the fuel injection system as each "squirt" is measured and delivered to the combustion chamber. Perhaps the analogy of a cook book of many pages where a team of little FI dwarfs each looks up and calls in his part of the recipe to the main kitchen chef who prepares the meal. Maybe what is hard to imagine is how fast, and how many times per second this "group" activity can take place for the perfect fuel mix during any demand by the environment (hot ,cold, etc) and/or the driver (fast, slow etc). Calculations so fast the ECU is really yawning with boredom, especially in the case of the slow revving tractor engine.

Now with tax time upon us imagine one individual's forms being done by hand over a period of several hours. The on-board ECU finishes that one and hundreds others as quick as you push a button. Tax=depressing. Speed = great.

motoman said:

Understand the reluctance.

I guess this forum needs a simplified breakdown of what is happening in the fuel injection system as each "squirt" is measured and delivered to the combustion chamber. Perhaps the analogy of a cook book of many pages where a team of little FI dwarfs each looks up and calls in his part of the recipe to the main kitchen chef who prepares the meal. Maybe what is hard to imagine is how fast, and how many times per second this "group" activity can take place for the perfect fuel mix during any demand by the environment (hot ,cold, etc) and/or the driver (fast, slow etc). Calculations so fast the ECU is really yawning with boredom, especially in the case of the slow revving tractor engine.

Now with tax time upon us imagine one individual's forms being done by hand over a period of several hours. The on-board ECU finishes that one and hundreds others as quick as you push a button. Tax=depressing. Speed = great.

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A carburetor is like having your taxes done by someone with an abacus...

I would be interested in knowing what the EFI sensors do and how the engine maintains RPM's. On my HD the throttle is actually an electronic 'volume control' - it doesn't have anything to do with the fuel system directly. Just like your car, the throttle is just another kind of adjustable resistor. Not sure if that's how it works on the CC. But really who NEEDS to know all that in order to trust it? Do any of us feel the need to understand our car's electronic systems to trust them? Fact is, for the most part, they just work and work and work. I am not the least bit interested in going back to system I can understand and (frequently have to) fix myself.

motoman & bullrider... YOU guys,... with all the determination you fella's have to convince all of us "carburetor-kickers" to love EFI, it occured to me, you probably need to "step-up " your presentation, of the mechanics of EFI, to those of us, less inclined, to venture into the realm of the yet to be proven & trusted, characteristics of EFI, perhaps, this brief video will guide you, in your efforts to convince us, to join the "Dark-Side of the unknown !! .. :thumbsup:..:laughing:..:laughing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4

THIS is a presentation ........ watch & LISTEN carefully !!

Boobala said:

motoman & bullrider... YOU guys,... with all the determination you fella's have to convince all of us "carburetor-kickers" to love EFI, it occured to me, you probably need to "step-up " your presentation, of the mechanics of EFI, to those of us, less inclined, to venture into the realm of the yet to be proven & trusted, characteristics of EFI, perhaps, this brief video will guide you, in your efforts to convince us, to join the "Dark-Side of the unknown !! .. :thumbsup:..:laughing:..:laughing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4

THIS is a presentation ........ watch & LISTEN carefully !!

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Well it's very amusing, no doubt. I like all that imitation doubletalk. But really, EFI on a CC is just a new place to use a system that's been around plenty long enough to prove how much better it is.
This is hardly an identical comparison, and forgive the occasional F-word usage, but this mirrors exactly my experience with an EFI motorcycle vs a carbureted one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGlqcq9RLYo

No skin off my nose if someone prefers a carburetor... but next winter when it's zero degrees out I'm gonna post a video of my EFI CC starting within two seconds of cranking even after having sat for a couple of months.

bullrider said:

Well it's very amusing, no doubt. I like all that imitation doubletalk. But really, EFI on a CC is just a new place to use a system that's been around plenty long enough to prove how much better it is.
This is hardly an identical comparison, and forgive the occasional F-word usage, but this mirrors exactly my experience with an EFI motorcycle vs a carbureted one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGlqcq9RLYo

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OK I know you're making your argument, BUT we both know, there was / is a serious carb problem there and the dick-head doesn't realize he's melting the starter, that leads me to believe, piss-poor maintenance of the machine, I think it had a choke gremlin !
BTW, my 98 Camry 4 banger is a fuelie, and never had the system cleaned or touched (outside of filters, and CONSTANT diet of Lucas fuel treatment since I've owned it ( 11 years now, in fact my mileage increased by 3 MPG after 2 months of using the Lucas)
I LUUUUUUUUUUUUUUV my Camry and I als loved the Kawi Z1Rs too ! ... RICE-BURNERS RULE !! ( I wasn't ALWAYS THAT way !! )

:laughing:..:laughing:

Boobala said:

OK I know you're making your argument, BUT we both know, there was / is a serious carb problem there and the dick-head doesn't realize he's melting the starter, that leads me to believe, piss-poor maintenance of the machine, I think it had a choke gremlin !
BTW, my 98 Camry 4 banger is a fuelie, and never had the system cleaned or touched (outside of filters, and CONSTANT diet of Lucas fuel treatment since I've owned it ( 11 years now, in fact my mileage increased by 3 MPG after 2 months of using the Lucas)
I LUUUUUUUUUUUUUUV my Camry and I als loved the Kawi Z1Rs too ! ... RICE-BURNERS RULE !! ( I wasn't ALWAYS THAT way !! )

:laughing:..:laughing:

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Well - if that guy's bike has a serious carb problem then so has every last one of my motorcycles - all of the carbureted ones - prior to my Sportster. Yet once I finally convinced them to start and run, they were pretty much OK after that. But the first time of the season? They weren't interested in the idea of running.
I wonder if part of the EFI's charm is that it works with PRESSURE and not mere gravity and the suction of air moving past holes? Which can get plugged a lot more easily than a system where the fuel is pressurized up to where it's released?
I'll certainly allow that fuel injection systems seem to like having something good run through them occasionally, Techron or SeaFoam or StarTron or something to keep them tidy.
My Lexus V6 (2005 ES with 3.5) sits all winter in my garage and starts at the turn of a key. I remember the old Kaw Z1-R's, I think the first ones came out with EFI back in '79 or '80? And I'm not positive but I think those MAY have had some issues. But hey, that was 38 years ago.

Boobala said:

motoman & bullrider... YOU guys,... with all the determination you fella's have to convince all of us "carburetor-kickers" to love EFI, it occured to me, you probably need to "step-up " your presentation, of the mechanics of EFI, to those of us, less inclined, to venture into the realm of the yet to be proven & trusted, characteristics of EFI in your efforts to convince us, to join the "Dark-Side of the unknown !! .. :thumbsup:..:laughing:..:laughing:

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Take a look a thread or so above this one... one guy's got a CC that's only a year old and it's got an annoying surging problem despite having been stored with a full tank of stabilized fuel. Different posters say 'It's a lean fuel air mix, take it for warranty repair', then 'It's not a warranty issue, you need fresh gas, fuel filter needs changed, maybe carb needs to be cleaned'... then 'Maybe it's a governor issue'.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the guy and hope he gets his issue sorted quickly, but that is just the kind of problem I've had with small engine carburetors. I have a push lawnmower that's now about 20 years old and I think it's the only small engine I've had where I've never had a problem with the carb and I have never done anything but add gas when it ran out. Weed wackers, Wheel Horses, snow blowers, all of them have given me carb troubles.

NEW guy with EFI eng, maybe you can exchange info. .........Boo

Boobala said:

NEW guy with EFI eng, maybe you can exchange info. .........Boo

View attachment 36931

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Maybe given that EFI is a relatively new thing on this sort of equipment, it would be a good thing for there to be one place where the subject itself can be discussed so the people contemplating making the jump can get an idea of others' experiences. Or is there a forum here that would be a natural fit for this topic?

bullrider said:

Maybe given that EFI is a relatively new thing on this sort of equipment, it would be a good thing for there to be one place where the subject itself can be discussed so the people contemplating making the jump can get an idea of others' experiences. Or is there a forum here that would be a natural fit for this topic?

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Sounds like a GOOD IDEA for a new FORUM .... Not long ago, I convinced the ADMIN to start a NEW FORUM called ( Transmissions & Transaxles ) sure enough.... they obliged, you have to send a PM to the ADMIN and also post in ( SITE DISCUSSION ) Forum,.. making your "plea" takes a while ... but makes life easier on this Forum ! .. like the separation of Engine makes, it would be nice to have separate sections for say... Carburetor-Issues, Electrical-Issues, Belt-Issues .... BUT it's much involved and it takes a great deal of time and probably money also ..?? Give it a shot !! ya get NOTHING accomplished IF ya don't try !! .. :thumbsup:

FOUND my PLEA ......

...

Boobala said:

Sounds like a GOOD IDEA for a new FORUM .... Not long ago, I convinced the ADMIN to start a NEW FORUM called ( Transmissions & Transaxles ) sure enough.... they obliged, you have to send a PM to the ADMIN and also post in ( SITE DISCUSSION ) Forum,.. making your "plea" takes a while ... but makes life easier on this Forum ! .. like the separation of Engine makes, it would be nice to have separate sections for say... Carburetor-Issues, Electrical-Issues, Belt-Issues .... BUT it's much involved and it takes a great deal of time and probably money also ..?? Give it a shot !! ya get NOTHING accomplished IF ya don't try !! .. :thumbsup:

FOUND my PLEA ......

View attachment 36933...View attachment 36932

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Well I think it would be cool idea - there's a few brands of lawn equipment that now use EFI but maybe not enough of any one brand to gain traction. Don't know how to PM the admin though...

bullrider said:

Well I think it would be cool idea - there's a few brands of lawn equipment that now use EFI but maybe not enough of any one brand to gain traction. Don't know how to PM the admin though...

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You go to the MEMBERS Forum ( top of posting pages ) or you can just click on their name in any posting, Muhammed can be found usually in the "stikys" at the beginning page of ALMOST any FORUM, Catherine ( Bless that girl) can usually be found welcoming folks to the site on "New Members" .... hope you can understand my jibberish ....

... ......... see attach

Personally I think it would be best to start a new forum while the info. is in it's beginning stages, and while there is not a great number of "posts" on it yet....... they would have to move almost every post about EFI into the new forum, then (if it gets done) they have to sort through ALL the posts and direct those about EFI to that one forum, I'm NOT a puter type guy, I'm usually better at researching information, but I'm damn good at misplacing it too! ..:laughing: ) So I really don't know how it all works behind the scenes, I DO KNOW ...... the Admin. AND the Moderators do one Hell of a bang-up job keeping this huge bowl of spaghetti in top running order as best they can, ... I tip my hat to em ! ..:thumbsup:

Thanks to Mr Boobala again for putting me onto a good Kohler EFI-related shop manual. He is certainly worthy of commendation as "Chief Archivist and Reference Librarian."

I chose to read one of several manuals offered, the title with EZ in it. Namely, Model EZ 715-EZ 750 (document is dated 2017). Kohler, like Deere, puts out some fine manuals. Not familiar with pro series machines, but this one is far from the little CC throttle body subject of this thread. Nevertheless, some items of interest ...

The V engine uses "port" intake injectors= not throttle body injector, but the EFI tips are applicable.

The engine will work on minimum 6V, but trouble shooting wants fully charged battery of 12.4 v.

Nice discussion of fault code access. These machines have the "usual" cable connection for laptop fault code access to be used with Kohler software, BUT SOME COME WITH BLINK CODE access. (count the blinks which show the same fault codes as the laptop).

According to Kohler if a blink code light is missing it can be EASILY ADDED BY CONNECTING "the tan WIRE" or "connector PIN" shown on their wiring schematic to a small (dash board sized) light bulb and ground. (We need to know the corresponding wire in the CC efi harness too set up "blinking") There is an ignition switch exercise of "on-off" (wait 2 seconds), on-off (wait 2 seconds), then "on" to begin the blink codes, if present.

Kohler has a section on a mechanical governor which is puzzling since engine load and speed are already known by the ECU.

Take a look at this manual. If you are new and "put off" by efi , take little bites and revisit it. ALL EFI TALK IS THE SAME so you will gain familiarity as you browse various articles and manuals. Enjoy (as I know you will):laughing:

Edit: Kohler describes the "little EFI dwarfs" in a way anyone can understand.

I dropped a note to the forum admin suggesting either a fuel systems forum divided up by carburetors and EFI, or just an EFI forum on its own. We'll see.

bullrider said:

I dropped a note to the forum admin suggesting either a fuel systems forum divided up by carburetors and EFI, or just an EFI forum on its own. We'll see.

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REMEMBER : It does NOT happen overnight....... I think it took around 2 months before Transmissions & Transaxles came to fruition .. :thumbsup:

Probably a good idea. Just hope it's a "browse" type item of interest so it is read.

Consumer Reports has the CC XT1LT42 rated #1 . This is not the EFI version. I then went to the CC site where they are pushing the little single EFI.
They show the 679 cc twin and have a "learn more" button which leads to a blank page. Happened on to a Home Depot site and they are pushing both the Kohler carb version of XT1LT42 and the EFI for $1500 and $1600. Wonder what happened to the twin? Whetting appetites or hiding problems?

motoman said:

Consumer Reports has the CC XT1LT42 rated #1 . This is not the EFI version. I then went to the CC site where they are pushing the little single EFI.
They show the 679 cc twin and have a "learn more" button which leads to a blank page. Happened on to a Home Depot site and they are pushing both the Kohler carb version of XT1LT42 and the EFI for $1500 and $1600. Wonder what happened to the twin? Whetting appetites or hiding problems?

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Maybe people have been quicker to buy the twins and they're trying to move the singles as well. For me it was no issue to take the single with EFI instead of the twin with a carburetor (BTW I paid $1749 for mine). The EFI was costing another $250 when I bought mine, not just $100 more as here. Wish I had 'price protection' on that! I doubt that there have been any problems with the twin engines, unless they are absolutely new designs which I doubt.

Any progress on your EFI thread start-up ???

Boobala said:

Any progress on your EFI thread start-up ???

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No, I messaged the guy you told me about and haven't heard back yet. Didn't see a forum indicating it either so far. In the meantime I see numerous threads about carburetor problems. Hmm.

bullrider said:

No, I messaged the guy you told me about and haven't heard back yet. Didn't see a forum indicating it either so far. In the meantime I see numerous threads about carburetor problems. Hmm.

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The carburetor problems will all be ELIMINATED... they, AND fuel-injection will fall by the wayside, as soon as I finish developing my Hyper-Bolically-Pro-framminstatin 1 drop of Candle-wax powered, fuel delivery system !! .. :laughing:..:laughing:

While talking to the guy behind the counter where they're putting a new engine in my Cub I asked the guy what their experience has been with the fuel injected engines. He said they didn't have a lot of experience on the particular one in my Cub but that they're in quite a number of tractors nowadays and they're fine - no problems. Sounds like the only thing the carburetor guys have to fear is fear itself.

bullrider said:

Well - if that guy's bike has a serious carb problem then so has every last one of my motorcycles - all of the carbureted ones - prior to my Sportster. Yet once I finally convinced them to start and run, they were pretty much OK after that. But the first time of the season? They weren't interested in the idea of running.
I wonder if part of the EFI's charm is that it works with PRESSURE and not mere gravity and the suction of air moving past holes? Which can get plugged a lot more easily than a system where the fuel is pressurized up to where it's released?
I'll certainly allow that fuel injection systems seem to like having something good run through them occasionally, Techron or SeaFoam or StarTron or something to keep them tidy.
My Lexus V6 (2005 ES with 3.5) sits all winter in my garage and starts at the turn of a key. I remember the old Kaw Z1-R's, I think the first ones came out with EFI back in '79 or '80? And I'm not positive but I think those MAY have had some issues. But hey, that was 38 years ago.

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Ok so I am just going to throw this out there... the EFI's charm is only 1 thing... the fact that sooner or later, the government is going to crack down on emissions in this space and the only way to get there will be EFI! Putting it on mowers now and getting the costs amortized is a way to get the word out there, learn from any mistakes and amortize costs. While getting buyers to pay for some of that. Same thing with latest safety features in cars like lane changing and auto braking for you. That is all going to be required soon... so the car companies want to sell it as bleeding edge options while they work out the bugs and get us to pay for it.

Just my 2 cents! (fyi I am looking forward when I can either by a $200 addon fi system or buy one of these motors from smallenginewarehouse for say $800 instead of $600 for the carb'ed version.)

Charm it is, but one feature of agri engines which may hold back enthusiasm is that they are mostly asked to run steady state. In the 80's I had run a little Brit car with a 1600 dohc (advanced at the time) with 2 side draft Weber carburetors . At the time they were touted to "almost simulate fuel injection" with their wide range of inlet "chokes," jets, emulsion tubes, and precision build. The Bosch "mechanical" FI (VW)was only a little better. Then came a ride in a 1985 Pontiac Fiero with electronic port FI (primitive by today's standards) riding the workhorse 2.8 V6. A revelation in throttle response!! The Webers could not touch this system. Point is that lawn mowers run steady and kind of bypass this "charm." So many are content with carbs, and the mfgrs are already tooled and have made carbs mostly acceptable. But the CC FI models are a warning shot. And "silence" at the repair shops is a good sign.

motoman said:

Charm it is, but one feature of agri engines which may hold back enthusiasm is that they are mostly asked to run steady state. In the 80's I had run a little Brit car with a 1600 dohc (advanced at the time) with 2 side draft Weber carburetors . At the time they were touted to "almost simulate fuel injection" with their wide range of inlet "chokes," jets, emulsion tubes, and precision build. The Bosch "mechanical" FI (VW)was only a little better. Then came a ride in a 1985 Pontiac Fiero with electronic port FI (primitive by today's standards) riding the workhorse 2.8 V6. A revelation in throttle response!! The Webers could not touch this system. Point is that lawn mowers run steady and kind of bypass this "charm." So many are content with carbs, and the mfgrs are already tooled and have made carbs mostly acceptable. But the CC FI models are a warning shot. And "silence" at the repair shops is a good sign.

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Mowers etc. run fairly steady state but they still have changes in load and they operate in different temperatures and such. That's where EFI is a good thing compared to a carburetor because everything is pressurized and controlled based on the results of the settings moment by moment, instead of 'it should draw in enough gas to run OK based on air rushing past a pipe with a hole in it dribbling gasoline'. The old mechanical FI was really stone-aged as it didn't use any 'feedback' from the engine to adjust anything. I think my first vehicle with EFI was a 1986 Ford "LTD II" (basically a very glorified Ford Fairmont) a which I bought well-used and it was a DREAM to drive compared to a Ford Ranger I had from three years before which NEVER ran right. It ran rough, was hard to start, wouldn't idle or else it tried to idle at 1500 rpms all the time, it was terrible. The LTD II with EFI, you turned the key and it started, and ran perfectly. At 100 degrees or minus ten.

Really, EFI is bound to take over for nearly all small engine equipment (other than weed wackers and some push mowers) because it's not that complicated, makes the engines run better, use less fuel AND make cleaner exhaust. And yeah, it's a good sign that there doesn't seem to be any common issues with the EFI systems. After all, it's NOT a new idea, in fact it's a simplified implementation of an idea that's been in used for decades with complete success.

The two most commonly used words in this whole forum are, I think, "carburetor problem".

Agree, but so far you, I, and few others are a small club here. Will the dealers remain like the Maytag repair man.....bored and lonely?:smile:

motoman said:

Agree, but so far you, I, and few others are a small club here. Will the dealers remain like the Maytag repair man.....bored and lonely?:smile:

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No, they'll always have work but there won't be near as many 'won't start, surges, won't idle' issues to fix.
I could have bought the V twin version of my tractor with a carburetor for the price I paid for the single with EFI, and despite the first engine failing (at 2.4 hours, obviously a major defect) I wouldn't do it over and buy the carbed engine.

bullrider said:

No, they'll always have work but there won't be near as many 'won't start, surges, won't idle' issues to fix.
I could have bought the V twin version of my tractor with a carburetor for the price I paid for the single with EFI, and despite the first engine failing (at 2.4 hours, obviously a major defect) I wouldn't do it over and buy the carbed engine.

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And now I have my tractor back with an engine that isn't making a death rattle from the get go and it's perfect.
It puzzles me though, don't they even start these engines one time before shipping the tractor to the customer? From the start I heard a very obvious noise which turned out to be either a wristpin or rod bearing failing. Just starting the engine, someone who did so for a living to give them a quick test could not have missed that sound and would have flagged that first engine as obviously defective.

So far your experience is the EFI is more reliable than the engine? I bought an HF pressure washer with single carb (after some doubts). After 1 year the major issue is starting. The thing wants choke to restart hot, possibly because of the cold water pump bolted on. Probably shouldn't say this but despite the starting issue and couple awkwardly located oil drain and check ports, a powerful devil .

motoman said:

So far your experience is the EFI is more reliable than the engine? I bought an HF pressure washer with single carb (after some doubts). After 1 year the major issue is starting. The thing wants choke to restart hot, possibly because of the cold water pump bolted on. Probably shouldn't say this but despite the starting issue and couple awkwardly located oil drain and check ports, a powerful devil .

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I haven't had it long enough to comment specifically on the EFI but Cub Cadet introduced this engine a couple years ago in the XT2 (more expensive model) and now are offering it in XT1, as well as on a twin cylinder. It's a system designed by Walbro and they have decades of EFI experience. My bad luck with the Cub engine itself seems unusual - the people at the Cub dealer all were familiar with how 'blowed up' my tractor's engine was. It obviously had a major defect from the start. If there was a problem with the basic design, after 2 or 3 years I am sure CC would have ironed it out.

https://todaysmower.com/walbro-worked-with-cub-cadet-to-launch-the-first-consumer-efi-lawn-tractor/

Everything I've ever owned with EFI has run beautifully. I can't say which vehicle was the worst running of those because none has been anything but perfect in all temps, hot starts, idling, frigid temps, they just RUN. The very idea of a 'remote starter' back in the carburetor days would have been somewhere between iffy and crazy. Now, you press a key fob button at 20 below from inside your house and your car starts up. Those of us who grew up with carb'd cars and trucks know that even for a new car, back then 20 below gave you no more than a 50% chance the engine would actually start.

I've got a pressure washer with (of course) a carburetor and for the most part it runs fine. I'm not saying a carb'd engine can't or won't run well but with my pressure washer I still have to twiddle with the choke control sometimes to make it run right even when it's warmed up.

Still waiting for feedback on the big box EFI units. Waiting....waiting. Are they so reliable no one has a problem, or is it that owners do not know they own one?:laughing:

motoman said:

Still waiting for feedback on the big box EFI units. Waiting....waiting. Are they so reliable no one has a problem, or is it that owners do not know they own one?:laughing:

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My 'big box' XT1LT42 with EFI has been perfect, except that the original motor blew at 3.5 hours. It had a rod knock from brand new, how it got out the factory without anyone detecting that I don't know. The replacement engine has been perfect. And the EFI is fantastic, the tractor sat all last winter with a tender on the battery, and started up in spring with about a second of cranking. It holds steady RPM's even when dragging a water-filled lawn roller up a ditch or going through heavy grass and I honestly think it uses considerably less gas than my older tractor w/ a 10hp engine.

Bullrider, sorry not to respond. I was blocked from response due to "insecure site" notation , possibly by chrome? Anyway good to hear all is well with your efi portion. We still need to enliven this topic.

I wonder if the stores have the EFI models out on display very often. The only store I regularly visit that sells Cub Cadets is Tractor Supply and I've never seen an EFI model in their parked 'fleet' out front.
Has anyone been able to determine what the HP is of this engine (the single cylinder EFI)? They never post it but it sure doesn't feel underpowered.

Bought my LX2 LT50 3 years ago with EFI, from a dealer not big box. Love it works great, no choke!