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octane and ethanol
#1
A
AndySKane
A
AndySKane
The Kawasaki engine on my Ferris mower recommends minimum of 87 octane and no more than 10% ethanol. I don't know of any ethanol free gas sellers around me and don't plan to look for them.
What are the thoughts on harm or benefit to the engine if a higher octane is run? I know running a lower octane than specified will hurt an engine but I've read that running a higher octane will either make no difference because the engine's compression level can't utilize it or that it is harmful in that it causes run on after shutoff.
Would a higher octane offset any potential negative effects of the ethanol?
How about additives to offset any negative effects of ethanol. I've read where there are such products but I've also heard them described as snake oil.
Perhaps it's best just to run it with 10% ethanol 87 octane gas as recommended by the engine maker.
What are your thoughts and what is everyone else doing?
What are the thoughts on harm or benefit to the engine if a higher octane is run? I know running a lower octane than specified will hurt an engine but I've read that running a higher octane will either make no difference because the engine's compression level can't utilize it or that it is harmful in that it causes run on after shutoff.
Would a higher octane offset any potential negative effects of the ethanol?
How about additives to offset any negative effects of ethanol. I've read where there are such products but I've also heard them described as snake oil.
Perhaps it's best just to run it with 10% ethanol 87 octane gas as recommended by the engine maker.
What are your thoughts and what is everyone else doing?
#2
reynoldston
reynoldston
The engine was designed to run with that fuel so why would you want to run anything else?
#3
BKBrown
BKBrown
Contrary to popular belief, higher octane burns slower. If Kawasaki recommends no more than 10% ethanol they must believe that any more can/will harm the engine (or it won't run as well on more). Sta-Bil makes a "marine grade" (blue) formula that is designed to offset the effects of ethanol fuel (my guess is they say marine grade because most engines used in boats/watercraft are affected more by the ethanol). I use it at recommended strength in the gas for my tractor and add it to the gas in car and truck most of the time. I have found it in larger containers and less expensive at Tractor Supply. If the engine runs well on 87 octane, don't waste $ on higher levels. JUST MHO.
#4
A
AndySKane
Often times manufacturers make compomises to accomodate what is most readily available but may not actually be best for the engine.
Primarily I ask this because the manual says a minimum of 87 octane and no more than 10% ethanol. so the first question is would a minimum of 89 or 91 octane be better. The manual did not specifically state not to use a higher minimum octane.
Secondly ethanol is not the first choice for engine fuel and was forced upon us for other than engine efficiency reasons. I have read of the negative effects of ethanol and was wondering if any additives are worth the money to try to offset them.
A
AndySKane
The engine was designed to run with that fuel so why would you want to run anything else?
Often times manufacturers make compomises to accomodate what is most readily available but may not actually be best for the engine.
Primarily I ask this because the manual says a minimum of 87 octane and no more than 10% ethanol. so the first question is would a minimum of 89 or 91 octane be better. The manual did not specifically state not to use a higher minimum octane.
Secondly ethanol is not the first choice for engine fuel and was forced upon us for other than engine efficiency reasons. I have read of the negative effects of ethanol and was wondering if any additives are worth the money to try to offset them.
#5
Jetblast
Jetblast
Higher octane ratings are to prevent detonation with higher compression ratios, and in cars with knock (detonation) sensors, it's to prevent a loss of performance caused by the electronic ignition system retarding itself to prevent knocking. I don't think very many small engines have knock sensors, so it's the detonation we're worried about. If you don't hear knocking, you're good to go.
If your engine is rated for 87 octane, any higher octane would be a complete waste of money despite a decades-long scam marketing effort by the oil companies to convince us otherwise. Higher octane burns more slowly to ease detonation in high compression engines, but in every other regard it's exactly the same fuel. It simply burns more slowly and cannot offset ethanol in any way.
Ethanol is no problem to a newer engine. Ethanol has solvent properties so it can erode non-metal parts in the fuel delivery system in older engines, but newer engines use materials that are made to withstand it. Either way though, ethanol fuels degrade more quickly and have greater hygroscopic properties, so they need to be used up fairly quickly especially in extreme humidity environments, or treated with a fuel stabilizer like STA-BIL. I don't bother with STA-BIL during mowing season, but I do use it for winter storage and for my rarely used generator. Works great, no problems yet.
If your engine is rated for 87 octane, any higher octane would be a complete waste of money despite a decades-long scam marketing effort by the oil companies to convince us otherwise. Higher octane burns more slowly to ease detonation in high compression engines, but in every other regard it's exactly the same fuel. It simply burns more slowly and cannot offset ethanol in any way.
Ethanol is no problem to a newer engine. Ethanol has solvent properties so it can erode non-metal parts in the fuel delivery system in older engines, but newer engines use materials that are made to withstand it. Either way though, ethanol fuels degrade more quickly and have greater hygroscopic properties, so they need to be used up fairly quickly especially in extreme humidity environments, or treated with a fuel stabilizer like STA-BIL. I don't bother with STA-BIL during mowing season, but I do use it for winter storage and for my rarely used generator. Works great, no problems yet.
#6
reynoldston
reynoldston
I have about 700 hr. on my ferris with a kohler engine and all I have ever used is 87 octane and never looked at how much ethanol it has in it. All I know it is the cheapest gas I can buy. The engine has never had a problim yet and runs just fine on it. I think that will be the lease of your worries on your Ferris. Just keep all your maintenence up on it and you will have one of the best mowes made.
#7
O
oldyellr
O
oldyellr
While many years ago ethanol in gas affected some of the plastic and rubber parts in engine fuel systems, that is no longer the case today. All gasoline today contains some ethanol and engines are made to live with it. One drawback of ethanol in gas is that it absorbs water, so there is more likelihood of corrosion in the tank and fuel system. However, ethanol is one of the components that raises octane and is now used instead of lead which is now taboo. Using ethanol in motor fuel is also politically correct because it comes from sustainable sources and not those crooks that own the oil wells. However, its heavily subsidized by our tax dollars and indirectly raises the price of our food.
#8
Ric
Ric
If you have a problem with ethanol try using a Top Tier Gas. They use an additive to offset any effects of ethanol. Most all manuals will recommend a minimum of 87 octane and no more than 10% ethanol, That doesn't mean you can't run higher octane, it will not hurt the mower engine.
According to its marketers, all vehicles will benefit from using Top Tier Detergent Gasoline over gasoline meeting the basic EPA standard. Deposits will reputedly be minimized on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers.
New vehicles will supposedly benefit by keeping their engine clean and running optimally, older vehicles may benefit with increased engine performance and prolonged vehicle life.
Using this gas is purported to have the following benefits over gasoline's just meeting the EPA standard:
According to its marketers, all vehicles will benefit from using Top Tier Detergent Gasoline over gasoline meeting the basic EPA standard. Deposits will reputedly be minimized on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers.
New vehicles will supposedly benefit by keeping their engine clean and running optimally, older vehicles may benefit with increased engine performance and prolonged vehicle life.
Using this gas is purported to have the following benefits over gasoline's just meeting the EPA standard:
- Improved fuel efficiency
- Reduced driving upsets (rough idle, stalling and surge)
- Improved acceleration
- Increased engine power
- Reduced emissions
#9
Jetblast
Jetblast
I just looked up "Top Tier Gasoline". Wow, that new oil lobby campaign is a new one on me, but it's the same old scam. Thanks for bringing it forward.
Like I said earlier in this thread, "If your engine is rated for 87 octane, any higher octane would be a complete waste of money despite a decades-long scam marketing effort by the oil companies to convince us otherwise. Higher octane burns more slowly to ease detonation in high compression engines, but in every other regard it's exactly the same fuel. It simply burns more slowly and cannot offset ethanol in any way."
I don't see any credible evidence from the oil companies with their "Top Tier" campaign to offset that idea, but I'm eager to listen.
Like I said earlier in this thread, "If your engine is rated for 87 octane, any higher octane would be a complete waste of money despite a decades-long scam marketing effort by the oil companies to convince us otherwise. Higher octane burns more slowly to ease detonation in high compression engines, but in every other regard it's exactly the same fuel. It simply burns more slowly and cannot offset ethanol in any way."
I don't see any credible evidence from the oil companies with their "Top Tier" campaign to offset that idea, but I'm eager to listen.
#10
Ric
You can believe what you want but I used the 87 minimal standard gas crap in my mowers and equipment when I first purchased them and they ran yes and my hand held equipment ran like the gas I was buying...crap. I switched to a Top Tier gas and the difference is day and night. Same with my car and Truck, they start better, run better and I get better gas mileage with an 87 octane from a Top Tier vs the minimal standard gas.
If what you say is true and that this gas thing is know more than a scam why is it that most vehicles manage better gas mileage and produce better performance running a Top Tier Gas than the minimal standard gas. If what you say is true why doesn't Nascar just burn the minimal standard gas in there cars if there is no difference?
Top Tier Detergent Gasoline was developed to increase the level of detergent additive in gasoline. The EPA requires that all gasoline sold in the U.S. contain a detergent additive. However, the requirement is minimal and in many cases, it's not sufficient to keep engines clean. In order to meet Top Tier Detergent Gasoline standards, a higher level of detergent is needed than what is required by the EPA. Has nothing to do with octane levels. All octane levels at a Top Tier gas station have a higher level of detergent.
Ric
I just looked up "Top Tier Gasoline". Wow, that new oil lobby campaign is a new one on me, but it's the same old scam. Thanks for bringing it forward.
Like I said earlier in this thread, "If your engine is rated for 87 octane, any higher octane would be a complete waste of money despite a decades-long scam marketing effort by the oil companies to convince us otherwise. Higher octane burns more slowly to ease detonation in high compression engines, but in every other regard it's exactly the same fuel. It simply burns more slowly and cannot offset ethanol in any way."
I don't see any credible evidence from the oil companies with their "Top Tier" campaign to offset that idea, but I'm eager to listen.
You can believe what you want but I used the 87 minimal standard gas crap in my mowers and equipment when I first purchased them and they ran yes and my hand held equipment ran like the gas I was buying...crap. I switched to a Top Tier gas and the difference is day and night. Same with my car and Truck, they start better, run better and I get better gas mileage with an 87 octane from a Top Tier vs the minimal standard gas.
If what you say is true and that this gas thing is know more than a scam why is it that most vehicles manage better gas mileage and produce better performance running a Top Tier Gas than the minimal standard gas. If what you say is true why doesn't Nascar just burn the minimal standard gas in there cars if there is no difference?
Top Tier Detergent Gasoline was developed to increase the level of detergent additive in gasoline. The EPA requires that all gasoline sold in the U.S. contain a detergent additive. However, the requirement is minimal and in many cases, it's not sufficient to keep engines clean. In order to meet Top Tier Detergent Gasoline standards, a higher level of detergent is needed than what is required by the EPA. Has nothing to do with octane levels. All octane levels at a Top Tier gas station have a higher level of detergent.
#11
Jetblast
Jetblast
OK, Top Tier gas has a higher detergent level so although unlikely, there's a possibility it could keep your car's fuel injectors cleaner. A carburetor engine is even less likely to be impacted.
The claims for better running, mileage, performance, etc. are extraordinary, yet there's no extraordinary proof for them. Just anecdotal accounts similar to what one can hear about energy bracelets, which are most easily explained by placebo effect.
If I've missed any empirical third-party studies supporting what you've said which have been published, peer reviewed, and controlled for bias and placebo, I'd like to know about them so I can begin using only Top Tier gas, and so I can further spread the word. Unfortunately, I can't find anything like that. They're the ones making the claims so the burden of proof is on them.
I don't mean to be dogging you, it's not you, it's them. Years ago I used to go around raving about how great Slick 50 was and how much cooler my engine ran because of it's exceptional lubricating properties. In time I realized I'd been duped. Same story with Teflon in my oil. I was convinced of its value until my father made me read a document from DuPont, the makers of Teflon, stating that there was absolutely no way that Teflon can do anything good in oil, and in fact can cause harm by blocking oil passages.
The claims for better running, mileage, performance, etc. are extraordinary, yet there's no extraordinary proof for them. Just anecdotal accounts similar to what one can hear about energy bracelets, which are most easily explained by placebo effect.
If I've missed any empirical third-party studies supporting what you've said which have been published, peer reviewed, and controlled for bias and placebo, I'd like to know about them so I can begin using only Top Tier gas, and so I can further spread the word. Unfortunately, I can't find anything like that. They're the ones making the claims so the burden of proof is on them.
I don't mean to be dogging you, it's not you, it's them. Years ago I used to go around raving about how great Slick 50 was and how much cooler my engine ran because of it's exceptional lubricating properties. In time I realized I'd been duped. Same story with Teflon in my oil. I was convinced of its value until my father made me read a document from DuPont, the makers of Teflon, stating that there was absolutely no way that Teflon can do anything good in oil, and in fact can cause harm by blocking oil passages.
#12
Jetblast
Jetblast
Here's an interesting third-party test of premium branded gasoline vs. the cheaper stuff.
Detergent levels vary, fueling differences in gas quality | ScrippsNews
It's not real world usage, but it does show that premium brand fuels including those under the Top Tier umbrella do leave fewer deposits in their boil testing, and it shows that the detergent levels can be measured and found to be more than twice that of the EPA standard.
BP is not an official Top Tier brand, but they did great in the comparisons and I can use them without much more hassle than the discount place I've been using. I'll be making the switch.
Thanks for bringing up the topic of detergent levels. I (obviously) had no idea. :thumbsup:
Detergent levels vary, fueling differences in gas quality | ScrippsNews
It's not real world usage, but it does show that premium brand fuels including those under the Top Tier umbrella do leave fewer deposits in their boil testing, and it shows that the detergent levels can be measured and found to be more than twice that of the EPA standard.
BP is not an official Top Tier brand, but they did great in the comparisons and I can use them without much more hassle than the discount place I've been using. I'll be making the switch.
Thanks for bringing up the topic of detergent levels. I (obviously) had no idea. :thumbsup:
#13
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
my 1996 dodge dakota with the 3.9 v6 recommended 87 octane also. engine knocks with anything below 91 octane and has since was new. three warranty dealer claims and still couldn't fix it.
#14
M
MidTNDawg
M
MidTNDawg
I don't know of any ethanol free gas sellers around me and don't plan to look for them.
Would a higher octane offset any potential negative effects of the ethanol?
I have been running non-ethanol for about 4-5 months. The cost here is approx. 2-3% more than the E-10 commonly available. However my recorded mpg in three vehicles, 2006 Nissan Frontier, 2009 Nissan Altima, 1930 Dodge Brother Model DA DeLuxe reflects an increase of 10-15%. A number of respected authorities suspect ethanol of causing several problem with highway approved vehicles. Seems reasonable it would cause problems in mowers etc also.
#15
W
Woody71
W
Woody71
I run Shell gasoline in all my small engines. 87 in my Toro mower and 93 in both my echo trimmer and Craftsman leaf blower. I add 2 OZ of SeaFoam per gallon of gas each time I fill up the containers.
#16
G
Giles
"is now used instead of lead"
Would you care to explain how "valve cushoning" is accomplished with ethanol?
G
Giles
While many years ago ethanol in gas affected some of the plastic and rubber parts in engine fuel systems, that is no longer the case today. All gasoline today contains some ethanol and engines are made to live with it. One drawback of ethanol in gas is that it absorbs water, so there is more likelihood of corrosion in the tank and fuel system. However, ethanol is one of the components that raises octane and is now used instead of lead which is now taboo. Using ethanol in motor fuel is also politically correct because it comes from sustainable sources and not those crooks that own the oil wells. However, its heavily subsidized by our tax dollars and indirectly raises the price of our food.
"is now used instead of lead"
Would you care to explain how "valve cushoning" is accomplished with ethanol?
#17
O
oldyellr
It is not. The industry decision to go to catalytic converters requiring lead-free gas back in the 1970s caused a lot of problems not completely resolved by additives.
O
oldyellr
"is now used instead of lead"
Would you care to explain how "valve cushoning" is accomplished with ethanol?
It is not. The industry decision to go to catalytic converters requiring lead-free gas back in the 1970s caused a lot of problems not completely resolved by additives.
#18
G
Giles
THANKS for your clearification--I read your post as stating it was a substitute for "lead":thumbsup:
G
Giles
Yes but one reason lead was added to gasoline, was to cushion (lubricate) the valves and seats. As you stated,it was removed by our wonderful EPA because of emissions. But "valve seat recession" still exist in older engines as a result. Years ago, I did a lot of testing and research on valve problems with older engines, and came to the conclusion that a vehicle with the engine under normal, or light, load, the valve problem usually didn't exist. However, the same engine under heavy use would , most likely, have problems.It is not. The industry decision to go to catalytic converters requiring lead-free gas back in the 1970s caused a lot of problems not completely resolved by additives.
THANKS for your clearification--I read your post as stating it was a substitute for "lead":thumbsup:
#19
O
oldyellr
O
oldyellr
Tetraethyl lead was originally added to combat knock. The fact that it lubricated valve seats and stems was a bonus. It's still used in 100 octane aviation gasoline because you just don't mess with less effective substitutes when you could fall out of the sky.Yes but one reason lead was added to gasoline, was to cushion (lubricate) the valves and seats.
#20
B
Black Bart
B
Black Bart
When no lead fuel was made mandatory by epa the engines were equipped with hard valve seats.
Where I live we have fuel without ethanol but if the manufacture says 10 percent is ok then I would not worry about it.
Where I live we have fuel without ethanol but if the manufacture says 10 percent is ok then I would not worry about it.
#21
Jetblast
Yes, that will be a slow change if it ever happens at all.
Lead is great in gasoline but when it was in automotive fuel it literally sprayed out the tailpipe onto roadways, and got washed into adjacent soil and ditches. Anything grown in that soil was toxic. After running a roadside lemonaide stand all summer, little Johnny didn't do so well at math and your goats tried to have big sexy time with your cows.
Aviation engines don't care about the environment and there's little reason they should. There are few of them, comparatively speaking, and they blow their lead over wide and often unpopulated areas. Lead is great for them as they must have an optimal power-to-weight ratio at reasonable cost, which is helped by high compression. Since so many piston airplanes are flying around without hardened valve seats, the cost of upgrade would ground a tremendous number of them. General aviation has a hard enough time surviving without that.
Jetblast
Tetraethyl lead was originally added to combat knock. The fact that it lubricated valve seats and stems was a bonus. It's still used in 100 octane aviation gasoline because you just don't mess with less effective substitutes when you could fall out of the sky.
Yes, that will be a slow change if it ever happens at all.
Lead is great in gasoline but when it was in automotive fuel it literally sprayed out the tailpipe onto roadways, and got washed into adjacent soil and ditches. Anything grown in that soil was toxic. After running a roadside lemonaide stand all summer, little Johnny didn't do so well at math and your goats tried to have big sexy time with your cows.
Aviation engines don't care about the environment and there's little reason they should. There are few of them, comparatively speaking, and they blow their lead over wide and often unpopulated areas. Lead is great for them as they must have an optimal power-to-weight ratio at reasonable cost, which is helped by high compression. Since so many piston airplanes are flying around without hardened valve seats, the cost of upgrade would ground a tremendous number of them. General aviation has a hard enough time surviving without that.
#22
K
KennyV
Ah... the good ol days of Ethyl & Regular gas pumps...
and then it got where you could see the air in and around larger cities...
Well now, I guess as Always, around here we burn whatever is coming out of the pumps... 10 - 15 or whatever percent ethanol... if it's there we will use it... In many ways it's good that there are not more choices, because there are always going to be those that will fall for the marketing ploys and buy the more better & most bestes because the fuel distributor claims it will make your happiness factor shine brighter...
Thankfully most of those additive benefits are Quietly taken care of... for us.... and we will continue to use what is placed in the tank...:smile:KennyV
K
KennyV
Tetraethyl lead was originally added to combat knock.
...
Ah... the good ol days of Ethyl & Regular gas pumps...
and then it got where you could see the air in and around larger cities...
Well now, I guess as Always, around here we burn whatever is coming out of the pumps... 10 - 15 or whatever percent ethanol... if it's there we will use it... In many ways it's good that there are not more choices, because there are always going to be those that will fall for the marketing ploys and buy the more better & most bestes because the fuel distributor claims it will make your happiness factor shine brighter...
Thankfully most of those additive benefits are Quietly taken care of... for us.... and we will continue to use what is placed in the tank...:smile:KennyV
#23
W
weewilly
W
weewilly
back to the origional question
I n Canada all gasoline pumps have a sticker stating that the gasoline out of a regular (87 octane) pump MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% ETHANOL if your manuat states that this is acceptable use it,
If you believe you are having performance/milage or other concerns try the premium blend for 2-3 tankfulls and base a cost/expense judgment call; for your unique situation.
Just my $0.02cdn
Weewilly
I n Canada all gasoline pumps have a sticker stating that the gasoline out of a regular (87 octane) pump MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% ETHANOL if your manuat states that this is acceptable use it,
If you believe you are having performance/milage or other concerns try the premium blend for 2-3 tankfulls and base a cost/expense judgment call; for your unique situation.
Just my $0.02cdn
Weewilly
#24
B
BlaneR
B
BlaneR
It's a fairly simple thing - the smaller the environment (in this case an engine) or the higher the performance tuning (ie. compression), the better fuel you put in it the better it'll run. However, for me, it boils down to the price. I don't see that the higher cost being worth the gain in performance. Maybe on the trimmer it might, as some here have mentioned, since it uses so little fuel. Might have to try that.
As to the 'top tier' stuff that was mentioned - that's about detergent and additives, not octane level. Two totally different discussions.
Peace!
As to the 'top tier' stuff that was mentioned - that's about detergent and additives, not octane level. Two totally different discussions.
Peace!
#25
B
BlaneR
We've got the same sticker down here, with that exact wording.
B
BlaneR
back to the origional question
I n Canada all gasoline pumps have a sticker stating that the gasoline out of a regular (87 octane) pump MAY CONTAIN UP TO 10% ETHANOL if your manuat states that this is acceptable use it,
If you believe you are having performance/milage or other concerns try the premium blend for 2-3 tankfulls and base a cost/expense judgment call; for your unique situation.
Just my $0.02cdn
Weewilly
We've got the same sticker down here, with that exact wording.
#26
Jetblast
You're reinforcing the erroneous notion that premium gas is better than regular gas. We're used to the idea that more expensive = better, but higher octane gas is not better than standard octane gas. It's just different. It's made to burn more slowly for a particular set of circumstances, and using it in an engine who's compression ratio doesn't require it cannot possibly improve your performance in any measurable way.
Jetblast
It's a fairly simple thing - the smaller the environment (in this case an engine) or the higher the performance tuning (ie. compression), the better fuel you put in it the better it'll run. However, for me, it boils down to the price. I don't see that the higher cost being worth the gain in performance. Maybe on the trimmer it might, as some here have mentioned, since it uses so little fuel. Might have to try that.
You're reinforcing the erroneous notion that premium gas is better than regular gas. We're used to the idea that more expensive = better, but higher octane gas is not better than standard octane gas. It's just different. It's made to burn more slowly for a particular set of circumstances, and using it in an engine who's compression ratio doesn't require it cannot possibly improve your performance in any measurable way.
#27
S
ss69
S
ss69
I have bought several pieces of equipment (mosty Stihl) the last two years. There is a label attached to the gas cap, that warns "Warranty will be voided if regular gas is used." The dealer tells me that if the engine breaks down (in warranty) an analysis will be done to determine if regular has been used. So, all the 2 to 600cc engines get high test and the 350hp truck gets regular. Go figure.
#28
Jetblast
Using regular gas in an engine with high enough compression to require slower-burning premium can cause detonation, which creates a force similar to beating your piston crowns with a large hammer. Chances are Stihl's analysis starts with a quick check for piston, rod, or bearing damage.
Jetblast
I have bought several pieces of equipment (mosty Stihl) the last two years. There is a label attached to the gas cap, that warns "Warranty will be voided if regular gas is used." The dealer tells me that if the engine breaks down (in warranty) an analysis will be done to determine if regular has been used. So, all the 2 to 600cc engines get high test and the 350hp truck gets regular. Go figure.
Using regular gas in an engine with high enough compression to require slower-burning premium can cause detonation, which creates a force similar to beating your piston crowns with a large hammer. Chances are Stihl's analysis starts with a quick check for piston, rod, or bearing damage.
#29
K
KennyV
You are absolutely correct... something about the word "Premium" will make some folks think that it equates to better...
There is no mistake looking at spark plugs and pistons from a high compression engine that has been ran with low octane... Wont take a lot of chemical analysis...
But if you are not running high compression or a LOT of boost... you are not going to need or gain from octane increase... :smile:KennyV
K
KennyV
You're reinforcing the erroneous notion that premium gas is better than regular gas. We're used to the idea that more expensive = better, but higher octane gas is not better than standard octane gas. It's just different. It's made to burn more slowly for a particular set of circumstances, and using it in an engine who's compression ratio doesn't require it cannot possibly improve your performance in any measurable way.
You are absolutely correct... something about the word "Premium" will make some folks think that it equates to better...
There is no mistake looking at spark plugs and pistons from a high compression engine that has been ran with low octane... Wont take a lot of chemical analysis...
But if you are not running high compression or a LOT of boost... you are not going to need or gain from octane increase... :smile:KennyV
#30
B
Black Bart
B
Black Bart
This guy has it right and rather than type all this I just did a copy paste but I agree with what this guy posted he has it right and he explains some of the myths about fuel.
Within practical reason premium fuel and regular fuel burn at the same rate. Premium fuel resists detonation better than regular so the explanation that it burns slower or faster was invented to explain this in-explicable phenomenon. That is called an old wives tale. The burn rate is the same. Period.
This gets murky, however.
As long as we are talking pure gasoline then premium and regular burn at the same rate.
There are very special blends of gasoline that do have different burn rates....like the magic stuff of formula 1 legend. We are talking pump gas here, right?
There are other ways of improving the octane rating of the fuel than just making better gasoline. Adding lead, as mentioned, will increase the octane rating and will not affect the burn rate. Adding alcohol (either methanol or ethanol) or some other oxygenates will also improve the octane rating of fuel. Alcohol burns slower than gasoline so gasoline spiked with alcohol will burn slower than straight gasoline. I believe this is the reason for some of the confusion and explains some of the "testimonials" from experts that claim "their motor made more HP on regular fuel than premium" and that "regular has more energy than premium." Likely they tested with some premium gasoline spiked with alcohol and they didn't change the jetting and spark timing accordingly.
As a matter of fact I have seen many engines on very accurate dynos run on both premium and regular fuel (these were engines designed for regular) and the power was exactly the same and the optimum spark timing was exactly the same. If the fuel burned slower or the burn rate changed then the optimum spark would change accordingly. Proof that the burn rate stays the same.
Normally aspirated engines at altitude are running somewhat throttled due to the lower atmospheric pressure. The cylinder pressure of an engine at WOT at altitude will be like the same engine at 2/3 throttle at sea level. That is why octane requirements at altitude are reduced and premium fuel at altitude will always be about 3 or 4 points lower than fuel at sea level.
Don't confuse octane rating (the fuels resistance to detonation) with volatility (the vapor pressure of the fuel). Volatile fuel will boil or generate vapor at lower temperatures and/or volatile fuel will create more vapor at a temperature than a lower volatile fuel would. Volatility affects the fuel's ability to vaporize or atomize in the intake tract and combustion chamber. Winter fuel is much more volatile than summer fuel. High altitude fuel is much less volatile (within the same season) than low altitude fuel. Volatility can also affect HP significantly depending on the engine and fuel system as the better the fuel atomizes the more completely it can burn and the more oxygen in the air is used. Many times power differences blamed on premium/regular are really due to differences in volatility without the tester realizing it. Aviation fuel is very low volatility even though it has high octane rating. I have heard lots of people claim av gas "won't make power" without realizing why....it's the volatility, dummy.
Some racing fuel can have very low volatility, also. Low volatility helps resist vapor lock ..... vapor forming in the suction side of the fuel line as the fuel pump tries to pull the fuel from the tank. I know of one specific case where a racer ran some race gas and pump gas and found more power with the pump gas and presented the results as proof that the lower octane fuel had "less energy in it". Wrong. The race gas was too dead to atomize completely and hurt the air/fuel distribution to the point that the power dropped. The pump gas was more volatile, atomized well and distributed well and made more power.
Old wives tales die hard....but there is usually an explanation out there to explain how they got started.
BTW....it is detonation or pre-ignition. "Pre-detonation" is not a word and not a condition.
Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end gas in the chamber. Detonation happens after the spark ignites the charge in a normal fashion. Causes a very very rapid pressure spike in the chamber that "rings" the structure of the chamber much like hitting it with a hammer. That is what you hear. It is NOT the sound of the flame fronts colliding. Another old wives tale.
Pre-ignition is a situation where the charge is ignited BEFORE the spark plug ignites the mixture. You will never hear pre-ignition. You'll hear the piston breaking up and parts chewing each other but not the pre-ignition that caused it. Pre-ignition is always deadly because the piston is coming up while the charge is burning and creating huge pressure trying to stop it. Piston looses.
Detonation often occurs near the exhaust valve because the exhaust valve is hot and heats up the mixture making it prone to spontaneously combust and cause detonation. Not because it ignited the tail end of the mixture. If that happened it would have lit it off much sooner and been pre-ignition.
Within practical reason premium fuel and regular fuel burn at the same rate. Premium fuel resists detonation better than regular so the explanation that it burns slower or faster was invented to explain this in-explicable phenomenon. That is called an old wives tale. The burn rate is the same. Period.
This gets murky, however.
As long as we are talking pure gasoline then premium and regular burn at the same rate.
There are very special blends of gasoline that do have different burn rates....like the magic stuff of formula 1 legend. We are talking pump gas here, right?
There are other ways of improving the octane rating of the fuel than just making better gasoline. Adding lead, as mentioned, will increase the octane rating and will not affect the burn rate. Adding alcohol (either methanol or ethanol) or some other oxygenates will also improve the octane rating of fuel. Alcohol burns slower than gasoline so gasoline spiked with alcohol will burn slower than straight gasoline. I believe this is the reason for some of the confusion and explains some of the "testimonials" from experts that claim "their motor made more HP on regular fuel than premium" and that "regular has more energy than premium." Likely they tested with some premium gasoline spiked with alcohol and they didn't change the jetting and spark timing accordingly.
As a matter of fact I have seen many engines on very accurate dynos run on both premium and regular fuel (these were engines designed for regular) and the power was exactly the same and the optimum spark timing was exactly the same. If the fuel burned slower or the burn rate changed then the optimum spark would change accordingly. Proof that the burn rate stays the same.
Normally aspirated engines at altitude are running somewhat throttled due to the lower atmospheric pressure. The cylinder pressure of an engine at WOT at altitude will be like the same engine at 2/3 throttle at sea level. That is why octane requirements at altitude are reduced and premium fuel at altitude will always be about 3 or 4 points lower than fuel at sea level.
Don't confuse octane rating (the fuels resistance to detonation) with volatility (the vapor pressure of the fuel). Volatile fuel will boil or generate vapor at lower temperatures and/or volatile fuel will create more vapor at a temperature than a lower volatile fuel would. Volatility affects the fuel's ability to vaporize or atomize in the intake tract and combustion chamber. Winter fuel is much more volatile than summer fuel. High altitude fuel is much less volatile (within the same season) than low altitude fuel. Volatility can also affect HP significantly depending on the engine and fuel system as the better the fuel atomizes the more completely it can burn and the more oxygen in the air is used. Many times power differences blamed on premium/regular are really due to differences in volatility without the tester realizing it. Aviation fuel is very low volatility even though it has high octane rating. I have heard lots of people claim av gas "won't make power" without realizing why....it's the volatility, dummy.
Some racing fuel can have very low volatility, also. Low volatility helps resist vapor lock ..... vapor forming in the suction side of the fuel line as the fuel pump tries to pull the fuel from the tank. I know of one specific case where a racer ran some race gas and pump gas and found more power with the pump gas and presented the results as proof that the lower octane fuel had "less energy in it". Wrong. The race gas was too dead to atomize completely and hurt the air/fuel distribution to the point that the power dropped. The pump gas was more volatile, atomized well and distributed well and made more power.
Old wives tales die hard....but there is usually an explanation out there to explain how they got started.
BTW....it is detonation or pre-ignition. "Pre-detonation" is not a word and not a condition.
Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end gas in the chamber. Detonation happens after the spark ignites the charge in a normal fashion. Causes a very very rapid pressure spike in the chamber that "rings" the structure of the chamber much like hitting it with a hammer. That is what you hear. It is NOT the sound of the flame fronts colliding. Another old wives tale.
Pre-ignition is a situation where the charge is ignited BEFORE the spark plug ignites the mixture. You will never hear pre-ignition. You'll hear the piston breaking up and parts chewing each other but not the pre-ignition that caused it. Pre-ignition is always deadly because the piston is coming up while the charge is burning and creating huge pressure trying to stop it. Piston looses.
Detonation often occurs near the exhaust valve because the exhaust valve is hot and heats up the mixture making it prone to spontaneously combust and cause detonation. Not because it ignited the tail end of the mixture. If that happened it would have lit it off much sooner and been pre-ignition.
#31
Jetblast
Jetblast
Interesting, but I think that guy has it wrong about burn rate, Black Bart. If you Google the topic you'll find hundreds of sources including manufacturers, labs, the government, The Straight Dope, etc. saying that premium resists spontaneous combustion by burning more slowly and creating a higher flash point.
Who is that guy and what are his sources? Maybe he's right and if so, it would be interesting to see how he came to that conclusion.
Who is that guy and what are his sources? Maybe he's right and if so, it would be interesting to see how he came to that conclusion.
#32
B
Black Bart
I think if you survey 1000 people 999 of them will agree with you but they would all be wrong.
It has to be one of the most misunderstood things about autos but the good thing is unless you are into tuning high performance engines all you really need to do is follow the manufactures recommendations.
He even explains why people believe the burn rate is different I'm not sure I could state it so most would understand it but it is true.
I prefer to stay out of this kind of discussion because everyone will
insist I'm wrong because the myth is so wide spread that nearly everyone has excepted it as Gospel.
If you carefully read what he said again I think you will get what he is trying to explain.
I have spent a life time building high performance engines also, I currently have a Corvette with a engine that I built it is a small block 406 with a D-1R Procharger and Nitrous Oxide it is streetable I drive it on the street a lot and it makes 1178 HP with a manual 6 speed behind it.
I installed a ACCEL DFI and built all my own fuel and timing tables.
When you start doing that you had better understand how fuel works or you will wind up with a very expensive basket case.
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0708_racing_fuel/octane_burn_rates.html
Here is a site like what you were talking about and this is a clasic example of people posting what they believe based on nothing more than what they have read on the Internet. NO real world experience.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061010181219AAM2aNa
What does all this have to do with the engine in your mower???? Nothing at all it is a low compression low performance engine designed to run on 87 octane and it needs nothing else.
Here is another one you need to read. http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php
B
Black Bart
The guy builds race engines.Interesting, but I think that guy has it wrong about burn rate, Black Bart. If you Google the topic you'll find hundreds of sources including manufacturers, labs, the government, The Straight Dope, etc. saying that premium resists spontaneous combustion by burning more slowly, thus creating a lower flash point.
Who is that guy and what are his sources? Maybe he's right and if so, it would be interesting to see how he came to that conclusion.
I think if you survey 1000 people 999 of them will agree with you but they would all be wrong.
It has to be one of the most misunderstood things about autos but the good thing is unless you are into tuning high performance engines all you really need to do is follow the manufactures recommendations.
He even explains why people believe the burn rate is different I'm not sure I could state it so most would understand it but it is true.
I prefer to stay out of this kind of discussion because everyone will
insist I'm wrong because the myth is so wide spread that nearly everyone has excepted it as Gospel.
If you carefully read what he said again I think you will get what he is trying to explain.
I have spent a life time building high performance engines also, I currently have a Corvette with a engine that I built it is a small block 406 with a D-1R Procharger and Nitrous Oxide it is streetable I drive it on the street a lot and it makes 1178 HP with a manual 6 speed behind it.
I installed a ACCEL DFI and built all my own fuel and timing tables.
When you start doing that you had better understand how fuel works or you will wind up with a very expensive basket case.
http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0708_racing_fuel/octane_burn_rates.html
Here is a site like what you were talking about and this is a clasic example of people posting what they believe based on nothing more than what they have read on the Internet. NO real world experience.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061010181219AAM2aNa
What does all this have to do with the engine in your mower???? Nothing at all it is a low compression low performance engine designed to run on 87 octane and it needs nothing else.
Here is another one you need to read. http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php
#33
Jetblast
Jetblast
I think I see where he got his info and he's not wrong, but he's not completely right either. It might just be a matter of semantics. Interesting
topic though. I've spent a lifetime around aviation engines but have certainly never thought about this topic this much. My opinion on whether
"real world" experience or considered research is more valuable differs from yours however, as I've met plenty of mechanics everywhere from
Jiffy Lube to aviation engine test facilities who will repeat misinformation for decades. Best case scenario, there's research and application
involved.
Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4
One of many pertinent sections here:
"The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram. The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1 CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s, and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds are also very dependent on stoichiometry."
Between this and other parts of the white paper, in plain words it comes down to premium gas
burning in a more controlled fashion, but under normal circumstances it burns neither slower nor quicker
than regular. What the premium additives do however, is prevent the flame from accelerating under higher
pressures and pressure spikes. So "premium burns slower" really means its burn rate is prevented from accelerating
under the pressure and pressure anomalies of very high compression. At least that's how I'm reading it.
topic though. I've spent a lifetime around aviation engines but have certainly never thought about this topic this much. My opinion on whether
"real world" experience or considered research is more valuable differs from yours however, as I've met plenty of mechanics everywhere from
Jiffy Lube to aviation engine test facilities who will repeat misinformation for decades. Best case scenario, there's research and application
involved.
Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4
One of many pertinent sections here:
"The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram. The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1 CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s, and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds are also very dependent on stoichiometry."
Between this and other parts of the white paper, in plain words it comes down to premium gas
burning in a more controlled fashion, but under normal circumstances it burns neither slower nor quicker
than regular. What the premium additives do however, is prevent the flame from accelerating under higher
pressures and pressure spikes. So "premium burns slower" really means its burn rate is prevented from accelerating
under the pressure and pressure anomalies of very high compression. At least that's how I'm reading it.
#34
Jetblast
Jetblast
Interestingly, the semantics of the issue "burns slower" vs "prevented from burning faster" throws the notion that using premium in an engine made for regular will cause premature catalytic converter failure out the window, assuming the latter is correct. Sometimes splitting hairs does make a difference.
#35
B
Black Bart
B
Black Bart
I just posted another link in my post lot of good info in it.
Yes the statement it burns slower is wrong at least in the way most people use it.
You must suppress the end gasses to prevent detonation.
The design of the chamber has a big effect on this also.
Some engines are detonation prone due to poor design
Yes the statement it burns slower is wrong at least in the way most people use it.
You must suppress the end gasses to prevent detonation.
The design of the chamber has a big effect on this also.
Some engines are detonation prone due to poor design
#36
B
Black Bart
B
Black Bart
Bruce Hamilton is a well known author of this subject.I think I see where he got his info and he's not wrong, but he's not completely right either. It might just be a matter of semantics. Interesting
topic though. I've spent a lifetime around aviation engines but have certainly never thought about this topic this much. My opinion on whether
"real world" experience or considered research is more valuable differs from yours however, as I've met plenty of mechanics everywhere from
Jiffy Lube to aviation engine test facilities who will repeat misinformation for decades. Best case scenario, there's research and application
involved.
Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4
One of many pertinent sections here:
"The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram. The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1 CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s, and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds are also very dependent on stoichiometry."
Between this and other parts of the white paper, in plain words it comes down to premium gas
burning in a more controlled fashion, but under normal circumstances it burns neither slower nor quicker
than regular. What the premium additives do however, is prevent the flame from accelerating under higher
pressures and pressure spikes. So "premium burns slower" really means its burn rate is prevented from accelerating
under the pressure and pressure anomalies of very high compression. At least that's how I'm reading it.
#37
B
Black Bart
I ran into this just last week at my local dealer, The only reason I was their is my car is under warranty as soon as it runs out they will never see it again but while talking with the mechanic I realized he didn't know $hit about an engine but he worked at a dealership.
What they learn in school is good but then they have to learn from doing but some never get beyond what they were taught in the factory training.
The local dealerships here is a good place to go if you enjoy being ripped off for a bunch of stuff you didn't need.
How else can they keep those big palaces open it takes a lot of money to cover the overhead.
END OF RANT
B
Black Bart
Very true a lot of mechanics do not actually understand how a engine works the young ones are trained that if you test A and it tests good then test B and if you follow the instructions you can get it running but they don't really know why, They only know that if they do as they were taught it will resolve the problem.I think I see where he got his info and he's not wrong, but he's not completely right either. It might just be a matter of semantics. Interesting
topic though. I've spent a lifetime around aviation engines but have certainly never thought about this topic this much. My opinion on whether
"real world" experience or considered research is more valuable differs from yours however, as I've met plenty of mechanics everywhere from
Jiffy Lube to aviation engine test facilities who will repeat misinformation for decades. Best case scenario, there's research and application
involved. Gasoline FAQ - Part 3 of 4
One of many pertinent sections here:
"The actual ignition timing to achieve the maximum pressure from normal combustion of gasoline will depend mainly on the speed of the engine and the flame propagation rates in the engine. Knock increases the rate of the pressure rise, thus superimposing additional pressure on the normal combustion pressure rise. The knock actually rapidly resonates around the chamber, creating a series of abnormal sharp spikes on the pressure diagram. The normal flame speed is fairly consistent for most gasoline HCs, regardless of octane rating, but the flame speed is affected by stoichiometry. Note that the flame speeds in this FAQ are not the actual engine flame speeds. A 12:1 CR gasoline engine at 1500 rpm would have a flame speed of about 16.5 m/s, and a similar hydrogen engine yields 48.3 m/s, but such engine flame speeds are also very dependent on stoichiometry."
Between this and other parts of the white paper, in plain words it comes down to premium gas
burning in a more controlled fashion, but under normal circumstances it burns neither slower nor quicker
than regular. What the premium additives do however, is prevent the flame from accelerating under higher
pressures and pressure spikes. So "premium burns slower" really means its burn rate is prevented from accelerating
under the pressure and pressure anomalies of very high compression. At least that's how I'm reading it.
I ran into this just last week at my local dealer, The only reason I was their is my car is under warranty as soon as it runs out they will never see it again but while talking with the mechanic I realized he didn't know $hit about an engine but he worked at a dealership.
What they learn in school is good but then they have to learn from doing but some never get beyond what they were taught in the factory training.
The local dealerships here is a good place to go if you enjoy being ripped off for a bunch of stuff you didn't need.
How else can they keep those big palaces open it takes a lot of money to cover the overhead.
END OF RANT
#38
Z
ZipperGremlin
Z
ZipperGremlin
Sorry for reviving this thread, I'm just adding to info that I thought was lacking.
I am not a lawn mower or small engine expert but I do know a fair bit about car motors and a fair bit about gasoline needs. My current project car is very gas picky, modified and turbo-charged (19psi peak boost) and I've spent months researching and testing to find a gasoline supplier that I don't need to mix with race gas or toluene to bring the octane to 94+. I never put so much thought into gasoline quality, octane or ethanol content until modifying my car into the realm of nearly needing racing fuel, above 93 octane. This is what I have learned:
In all non-ECU/knock controlled engines you should use the octane rating that a given motor is timed for. Outside of that range you will not get optimal performance because it alters the physical timing of ignition in relation to set timing of the motor. That said, most modern car engines use knock sensors and ECU to automatically adjust timing and valves on the fly, in these cases you WILL see increased performance because the ECU advances the timing until it senses knock and then backs it off a touch to prevent damaging detonation. You do not need to use higher octane gas but you WILL see a percentage of performance/mileage increase (within reason) in many modern cars.
Octane and Ethanol, one will not offset the effect of the other, they are different beasts.
Ethanol contains something like 30% less energy per volume compared to gasoline. A blend will produce less power and reduced mileage compared to gasoline alone. Ethanol has an artificially high octane rating of about 117, so gasoline makers can actually use lower quality oil stocks (higher ratio of heptane molecules vs. octane molecules) and then blend in ethanol which artificially brings up the octane "rating" even though it's not "true" octane. Ethanol is also a very effective solvent (not good when added to seals or lubricants), it also has less lubrication qualities, promotes higher rates of oxidation and less stable than gasoline.
There IS a difference in gasoline quality, most top tier gas is double refined, cleaner and certain additives than cheaper, single refined gas does. Car manufacturers rate the suppliers as being Top Tier or not, it is not up to the gas companies or they would all rate themselves top tier. Pour cheap gas and top tier gas into clear jars... one looks clear like apple juice and really cheap gas looks cloudy. Double refined should lead to less emissions, less deposits and less gunk in the fuel filter.
In the States, Union 76 sells non-ethanol blended gas in all grades.
In British Columbia, Canada the only non-ethanol blended gas available is the 94 Octane at Chevron.
The only positives I know of Ethanol is that it has less emissions and comes from renewable sources.
I am not a lawn mower or small engine expert but I do know a fair bit about car motors and a fair bit about gasoline needs. My current project car is very gas picky, modified and turbo-charged (19psi peak boost) and I've spent months researching and testing to find a gasoline supplier that I don't need to mix with race gas or toluene to bring the octane to 94+. I never put so much thought into gasoline quality, octane or ethanol content until modifying my car into the realm of nearly needing racing fuel, above 93 octane. This is what I have learned:
In all non-ECU/knock controlled engines you should use the octane rating that a given motor is timed for. Outside of that range you will not get optimal performance because it alters the physical timing of ignition in relation to set timing of the motor. That said, most modern car engines use knock sensors and ECU to automatically adjust timing and valves on the fly, in these cases you WILL see increased performance because the ECU advances the timing until it senses knock and then backs it off a touch to prevent damaging detonation. You do not need to use higher octane gas but you WILL see a percentage of performance/mileage increase (within reason) in many modern cars.
Octane and Ethanol, one will not offset the effect of the other, they are different beasts.
Ethanol contains something like 30% less energy per volume compared to gasoline. A blend will produce less power and reduced mileage compared to gasoline alone. Ethanol has an artificially high octane rating of about 117, so gasoline makers can actually use lower quality oil stocks (higher ratio of heptane molecules vs. octane molecules) and then blend in ethanol which artificially brings up the octane "rating" even though it's not "true" octane. Ethanol is also a very effective solvent (not good when added to seals or lubricants), it also has less lubrication qualities, promotes higher rates of oxidation and less stable than gasoline.
There IS a difference in gasoline quality, most top tier gas is double refined, cleaner and certain additives than cheaper, single refined gas does. Car manufacturers rate the suppliers as being Top Tier or not, it is not up to the gas companies or they would all rate themselves top tier. Pour cheap gas and top tier gas into clear jars... one looks clear like apple juice and really cheap gas looks cloudy. Double refined should lead to less emissions, less deposits and less gunk in the fuel filter.
In the States, Union 76 sells non-ethanol blended gas in all grades.
In British Columbia, Canada the only non-ethanol blended gas available is the 94 Octane at Chevron.
The only positives I know of Ethanol is that it has less emissions and comes from renewable sources.
#39
O
oldyellr
O
oldyellr
Zipper, all you say is true, except perhaps it being good that ethanol comes from renewable sources. Those sources (mostly corn) are highly subsidized through (just like wind power), therefore not truly sustainable. Raising the price of corn by using it for motor fuel is not good.
I don't even remember how this thread got started and I'm too busy to go back and look, but, surely, you shouldn't need high octane fuel for something as utilitarian as a lawn mower engine. Ethanol in gasoline is for cars and is there for political and pseudo-environmental reasons.
I don't even remember how this thread got started and I'm too busy to go back and look, but, surely, you shouldn't need high octane fuel for something as utilitarian as a lawn mower engine. Ethanol in gasoline is for cars and is there for political and pseudo-environmental reasons.