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I'm replacing a 12 yr old tired craftsman and would like some advise from people who will have more experience than I have with mowers. The craftsman was the first one I've purchased, previous to that I had a hand-me-down 2-stroke lawnboy that must have been 20 yrs old.

Anyway, I'm looking at two main directions:

1. A self-propelled model. The two best ones I've seen are: a John Deere RWD, 875 series BS engine, single point height adjustment, electric start and the Toro super recycler. The Toro looks great but there are two things I don't like about it. First, it has individual wheel height adjusters. It is one of my pet peeves but I'm willing to let it slide. The other is sore spot for me, the engine on the electric start model has a Toro branded made in China engine. This can be resolved by getting the pull start Honda engined version however but the wife really likes the idea of electric start. She sometimes cuts the grass and her biggest gripe is starting the mower. I've also seen a Poulan Pro with a Honda engine, are these good machines? I looked at the new craftsman but they seemed overly large and heavy. The self propelled versions have what look like a 6" larger rear wheelbase than the front. My only concern going self-propelled is the added weight and potential added difficulty manouvering the mower in tight corners and reversing direction.

2. Take the leap and get a cordless mower. The three top ones I've researched are the B&D which is self propelled, cub cadet 500BAT and the Toro ecycler. I like the cub cadet the most since it has a removable battery, a must for winter storage and it has a conventional steel deck like the Toro. The only issue I see with the Toro ecycler is that the battery cannot be removed. The B&D just looks goofy with the large plastic deck and I don't think being self propelled on a battery electric makes sense since a good portion of that battery power will go into moving the mower instead of cutting grass. I would think it would limit how much cutting you can do on a charge. Anyone have first hand experience with a cordless mower? How long do the batteries last? This option has benefits, next to know maintenance, no oil to change, no gas to buy, turn a key and go, nothing easier than that.

Is it worth looking at cordless or should I stick with a self propelled?

Check in your area to see if anyone has any of last years model Toro with the B&S engine. This is an excellent unit if you can find them. Ask the dealer to check around for you. The new Chinese engine seems to be working good for us, (a lot of the manufacturers are going to it) but only time will tell. We've sold about two dozen already this year with no problems. The new Chinese engine has a cast iron sleeve and runs very quietly.

I looked around today and found what must be last years model Toro Recycler and it did have a B&S engine. It didn`t have electric start however. While I was out I took another look at the John Deere (Model JS48) This mower seems to have everything I want, Single lever height adjustment, 22`deck, variable speed RWD and a big B&S engine 875 series OHV engine. They have another model JS38 which does not have electric start and a B&S 700 Quantum series engine but it does feel noticeably lighter. Are these good mowers? The JS48 has something I've never seen on a walkbehind mower, an oil filter! I sort of like the idea of it since it should make sure the oil remains as clean as possible.

But back to cordless, are these worth looking into or are they prone to issues? How long do the batteries last? If it is less than 5 yrs I won't bother looking in that direction any longer.

Let's take look at the JS48 you looked at. This is what I see. First, I don't know if you realize it but that is a Chinese engine built to JD spec. It has a steel deck. You really like single lever height adjusters. If something goes wrong your dealing with all four wheels. Two year warranty. I think the price is about $500.00. Now I would like you to take a look at the Toro model 20384. Yes, the same Chinese engine built to Toro spec. It has an aluminum deck. Individual height adjusters. Lower maintenance costs. Five year warranty. Promo price now is $619.00. If you are going to get the Chinese engine, would it be better to have a five year warranty even if it costs more. If you go online and do some comparisons, I think the best buy is Toro. The personal pace system is one you and your better half will really like. I must tell you I have been selling and servicing Toro for the last 25years, but even then if you really look at cost vs. Valve. Toro will come out ahead. Go out a test each of them, feel the difference in construction and ease of use, you'll get over the 4 adjusters. You better take better half with you and she'll tell you to spend a little more to get a longer lasting unit. Steel deck lasts 7-10 years. Aluminum deck 15 years +. Hope this helps and doesn't get you in trouble.

The B&S is made in China! WTH, is there anything made in North America anymore? If that is the case then I agree, the Toro is the better mower. I also found the weights of the two machines, the JD is 100lbs to the Toro's 86lbs, another plus for the Toro. I did get a chance to try out an older Toro while at the dealer and the drive system is impressive.

When I looked at the JD online it's specs showed a Chinese engine. Maybe the JD you looked at was last years model.

Rivets has you going the right way.:thumbsup:.. a light weight deck is great on this type mower...
and individual adjusters are Much better than single... :smile:KennyV

Get a Honda mower they are the best. They are expensive but you get what you pay for.

I understand what you mean when you say you get what you pay for. Honda does make an excellent mower, but you pay a lot more up front, pay more for parts even basic tune-ups, and if some thing major does go wrong in let's say five years, you really pay for it. Honda vs. other major brands in my opinion is not a good $$$$ to value purchase. Many of you will disagree, and we all get to share our opinions. I'm sure that someone is going to say that a Rally or Noma mower is the way to go. Rudager is going to use the input given to help him make a decision.

Rudager, watch what you buy. The newer toro products are not the good quality as the older ones. I have a 20 year old toro weed wacker and have not have any problems with it. I rebuilt the carb 9 years ago and tune it up every year. My friend is a toro dealer and said that the quality has gone down in the past few years.

Sdoner, show me anything where the quality has gone up. Your friend is right and wrong. Toro now makes a cheaper unit to compete with Mr. Big Box. It still has many quality units for the customer who wishes to pay a little more.

Sdoner said:

Rudager, watch what you buy. The newer toro products are not the good quality as the older ones. I have a 20 year old toro weed wacker and have not have any problems with it. I rebuilt the carb 9 years ago and tune it up every year. My friend is a toro dealer and said that the quality has gone down in the past few years.

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Isn't this true of all the mower manufacturers? It seems the everyone is getting engines from china these days. I took apart my old craftsman for shits and giggles and cast right on the engine(Tecumseh) are the words MADE IN AMERICA. Now I only see three main engine manufactures on walkbehinds, Briggs, kohler, or Honda. From what I'm hearing Briggs and kohler engines are made in china these days. It wouldn't surprise me if Honda is doing the same. The Honda name means little to me as I've been working with them for more than a year in the automotive industry. I got to tell you, if they handle small engine development like they do automotive engine development then I'll take a pass, not impressed at all. In my search so far, the toro is at the top of the list despite the made in china engine.

Rivets said:

Check in your area to see if anyone has any of last years model Toro with the B&S engine. This is an excellent unit if you can find them.

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Are you talking about 2011 model? What about 2010 Toro 20332 with B&S? Any feedback?
Thank you.

I had, repeat had, a four year old TORO, self propelled walk behind, variable speed mower and in that four year the front wheel drive mechanism (transmission ) was replaced three times and twice on my dime. Last week she quit pulling once again and to the curb she went

Individual wheel adjustment was on the top of my list. I rarely intend to change the height and the the weight of all four wheels on one latch my old mower was always dropping like an air bagged chevy when I hit a rut or bump. Can't speak to the new engine, but my Kohler is killer and the super recycler I bought came with a 5 year warranty and four free blades. They recalled it for a potential transmission problem, replaced some screws and extended my transmission warranty to 6 years.

Grass ala Mowed said:

Individual wheel adjustment was on the top of my list. I rarely intend to change the height and the the weight of all four wheels on one latch my old mower was always dropping like an air bagged chevy when I hit a rut or bump. Can't speak to the new engine, but my Kohler is killer and the super recycler I bought came with a 5 year warranty and four free blades. They recalled it for a potential transmission problem, replaced some screws and extended my transmission warranty to 6 years.

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IT looks like you have a similar model to what I'm looking at now (20384). I'm starting to rethink the single vs individual height adjusters. I only change it at the start and end of the season (set to high during the spring and summer and low on the last cut of the year). I'm leaning towards the Toro for sure.

Vabear, you must have a different model toro than what I'm looking at if it is FWD.

FWD and variable speed (when it runs)

Rudager, I am getting very confused, maybe it is because of the number of different replies. Are you still mainly looking at a single lever height adjustably system? Are you looking at a Toro model 20384. If so you are looking at a rear wheel drive unit. That has the new toro engineered Chinese engine. Did a little more research on the engine and found out that it has a cast iron sleeve, ball bearings instead of cast/machine bushings on the crankshaft, and designed to run cooler. This is one of the top mowers in the Toro line and I would say that it should last 15 years plus in properly maintained. I must qualify that by saying that the new engine is just that, a new engine. It has a five year warranty to work out any bugs if they should appear.

Rivets said:

Rudager, I am getting very confused, maybe it is because of the number of different replies. Are you still mainly looking at a single lever height adjustably system? Are you looking at a Toro model 20384. If so you are looking at a rear wheel drive unit. That has the new toro engineered Chinese engine. Did a little more research on the engine and found out that it has a cast iron sleeve, ball bearings instead of cast/machine bushings on the crankshaft, and designed to run cooler. This is one of the top mowers in the Toro line and I would say that it should last 15 years plus in properly maintained. I must qualify that by saying that the new engine is just that, a new engine. It has a five year warranty to work out any bugs if they should appear.

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Yep, the 20384 model is what I'm now leaning towards. I accept the individual adjusters and china engine since the mower seemed the best overall. Electric start is a requirement since the wife does cut the grass regularly and pull-starting is her biggest complaint. This model isn't cheap but then I think you ultimately get what you pay for. The other electric start mowers didn't compare as well, the John Deere js48 was closest to the toro but doesn't have the 5year warranty and weights 15lbs more. Plus the toro dealer is only a couple miles from my house. I'd rather support the local businessman over lowes which has the John Deere mower.

Good choose. You won't be disappointed.

This is not correct. The B&S Pro Series 875 on the JS48 mower IS NOT made in China. It is designed, engineered, and manufactured right here in the US. Toro and MTD have been the only ones to date using the low quality Chinese engines. You can verify what I'm saying by going to the B&S link below. They do have a plant in China but that is for products sold in that region.

Why Briggs & Stratton Engines | Push Mower | Engines | Briggs & Stratton

Rivets said:

Let's take look at the JS48 you looked at. This is what I see. First, I don't know if you realize it but that is a Chinese engine built to JD spec. It has a steel deck. You really like single lever height adjusters. If something goes wrong your dealing with all four wheels. Two year warranty. I think the price is about $500.00. Now I would like you to take a look at the Toro model 20384. Yes, the same Chinese engine built to Toro spec. It has an aluminum deck. Individual height adjusters. Lower maintenance costs. Five year warranty. Promo price now is $619.00. If you are going to get the Chinese engine, would it be better to have a five year warranty even if it costs more. If you go online and do some comparisons, I think the best buy is Toro. The personal pace system is one you and your better half will really like. I must tell you I have been selling and servicing Toro for the last 25years, but even then if you really look at cost vs. Valve. Toro will come out ahead. Go out a test each of them, feel the difference in construction and ease of use, you'll get over the 4 adjusters. You better take better half with you and she'll tell you to spend a little more to get a longer lasting unit. Steel deck lasts 7-10 years. Aluminum deck 15 years +. Hope this helps and doesn't get you in trouble.

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I will give you and objective answer. I used to be all about Toro because frankly, the Personal Pace self-propelled system is the easiest to use and works the best of any. Period. Honda's control systems are the worst ergonomically speaking and wreak havoc on your hands unless you wear stout gloves. I needed a new mower this year and was going to buy a Toro Super Recycler until I saw the Chinese engine. No $600 mower should have a Chinese engine and personally, I don't like sending any more of my money to a Communist country that we'll probably be fighting a war with in the next decade or so. But that痴 a personal view so back to the products.

If you want Personal pace, go with a Super version of the Toro with the Honda engine. Honda engines are great. Only downside is it's teh GCV160 which is a little under powered. It sells for a decent price and has Personal Pace. Honda mowers on the other hand are overpriced for what you get. If you want Toro the aforementioned Super Recycler with the Honda is the best combination.

I wound up buying the John Deere JS48. It has the B&S 875 Pro which is a sweetheart of an engine. It's OHV, is about as quiet as the Honda, yet has a ton more power and torque than the Honda GCV160 that comes on the Toro and most Honda mowers. It will mow through anything and starts on the first pull even with the automatic choke. You have to spend almost a grand to get the GVC190 on a Honda mower. The wheel height adjustment works well with one lever for all 4 wheels. The cons are that the mower is a bit heavy and the Mowmentun control for the self-propel is not nearly as easy to use as Personal Pace. This is especially so if you have a lot of obstacles to mow around. That's because the pivoting handle gets awkward when going around curves and such.

The perfect mower for me would be a Toro Super Recycler with the B&S 875 Pro. Unfortunately they don't make such a thing. You have to move up to the Toro Timemaster to get this combo and it costs over $1000. The summary is it's whatever is most important to you. If it's a good engine go with the Deere. If it's the controls go with a Toro and Honda engine.

Sorry i may be wrong. Thank you for correcting me. Until your post I didn't know that JD was manufacturing their own engines. I do have one question. Why can I interchange a gasket set, and carb used on a JD with those on an engine built for Toro, MTD, and Kohler in China?

Not sure I understand the question. JD does not make their own engine for their walk behind mowers. It's a B&S made by B&S in the US. If you look at the Toro 20381 mower which has the Chinese engine and then go to the B&S website and look at their engines you can easily see that they are very different. The OHV and head is dimensionally different as is the air box and the carb. The briggs fuel line comes in to the front of the carb bowl and teh Toro engine feed comes in on the opposite side.

I have done lawn card for 25 years. I have used almost every mower on the market. I would say get the John Deere they are by far the best lawn mower on the market. I have 2 of them that I have had almost 25 years. They still work great not many mowers will hold up to 25 years commercial mowing. I would be sure to get one with a kawasaki engine

Rivets said:

....
Why can I interchange a gasket set, and carb used on a JD with those on an engine built for Toro, MTD, and Kohler in China?

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Ummmm ...
Because they are the Same engine... Made in the Same place.

There still is No reason to criticize Chinese manufactures ... They will build to WhatEver quality spec that any of their customers require...
There are some spectacular Chinese imports.... and some Not so spectacular... just depends on what was Ordered in the first place. :smile:KennyV

For a home owner Toro makes awesome machines another good option are Husqvarna make extremely good quality machines especially for home owners.

I myself run all Ariens for my business, but they are a bit more pricey and designed for more commercial applications.

Being a large volume dealer for Husqvarna, Toro, Honda, and Exmark 21" mowers I see less repairs on Honda equipment. The drive systems hold up better and the engines last longer even when not serviced correctly. The main advice I have is to make sure you are using gas without ethanol or be sure to use mid-grade or higher gas and you will be happy with your investment.

Rudager said:

I looked around today and found what must be last years model Toro Recycler and it did have a B&S engine. It didn`t have electric start however. While I was out I took another look at the John Deere (Model JS48) This mower seems to have everything I want, Single lever height adjustment, 22`deck, variable speed RWD and a big B&S engine 875 series OHV engine. They have another model JS38 which does not have electric start and a B&S 700 Quantum series engine but it does feel noticeably lighter. Are these good mowers? The JS48 has something I've never seen on a walkbehind mower, an oil filter! I sort of like the idea of it since it should make sure the oil remains as clean as possible.

But back to cordless, are these worth looking into or are they prone to issues? How long do the batteries last? If it is less than 5 yrs I won't bother looking in that direction any longer.

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The batteries in cordless electrics last based on use. That depends on the size of your lawn. The lead acid batteries in most of them don't repond well to shallow discharge /charge cycles. Running to end of charge life is always best for longer life of the batteries. I have a 120' x 60' yard and get 1 1/2 to 2 mowings per charge. I have a yard that makes it easy to get either front or back lawns one day and the other the next per available time. That also fits the battery swapping. I use an 8 y/o Neuton EM 4.1 14" single blade 24v mower. The only maintenance I have ever had to do is simple cleaning and blade sharpening! That 5 year figure is about right. I would recommend buying one with a per use removable battery pack and have a spare charged up. I have 3 packs and just had to replace the batteries this year in the last 1 I bought, 5 y/o. The batteries were ~$63. Neuton was selling the packs with Duracell batteries for a special price of $80 rather than the regular price of $100 this spring. I have 3 packs primarily because I mulch the fall leaves into the lawn with the mower which takes multiple passes with the small deck mower to get good dispersal to the soil. Mulching leaves is also a heavier load on the machine. Their 19" CE 6 36v one probably does a better job of the mulching. Were I in the market I'd seriously consider the "Recharge Mower" 17" with 36v Lithium ion battery pack, again removable per use by design, that weighs a mere 35lbs battery included. Toro doesn't make a removable per use battery model, Black and Decker does. as do a growing plethora of other newer player in this niche. Once you've gone battery electric you'll never want to go back to stinky, messy, maintenance intensive internal combustion powered mowers!

Willyvon said:

The batteries in cordless electrics last based on use. That depends on the size of your lawn. The lead acid batteries in most of them don't repond well to shallow discharge /charge cycles. Running to end of charge life is always best for longer life of the batteries. I have a 120' x 60' yard and get 1 1/2 to 2 mowings per charge. I have a yard that makes it easy to get either front or back lawns one day and the other the next per available time. That also fits the battery swapping. I use an 8 y/o Neuton EM 4.1 14" single blade 24v mower. The only maintenance I have ever had to do is simple cleaning and blade sharpening! That 5 year figure is about right. I would recommend buying one with a per use removable battery pack and have a spare charged up. I have 3 packs and just had to replace the batteries this year in the last 1 I bought, 5 y/o. The batteries were ~$63. Neuton was selling the packs with Duracell batteries for a special price of $80 rather than the regular price of $100 this spring. I have 3 packs primarily because I mulch the fall leaves into the lawn with the mower which takes multiple passes with the small deck mower to get good dispersal to the soil. Mulching leaves is also a heavier load on the machine. Their 19" CE 6 36v one probably does a better job of the mulching. Were I in the market I'd seriously consider the "Recharge Mower" 17" with 36v Lithium ion battery pack, again removable per use by design, that weighs a mere 35lbs battery included. Toro doesn't make a removable per use battery model, Black and Decker does. as do a growing plethora of other newer player in this niche. Once you've gone battery electric you'll never want to go back to stinky, messy, maintenance intensive internal combustion powered mowers!

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Oops, I forgot to mention the mower is quiet enough to carry on a conversation while using it! That of course depends on keeping the blade well balanced. Oh yeah and the Recharge Mower folks sell a 48v rider as well! Recharge Mower

We sell cub and simplicity . Cubs come back for valve issues and broken cables with as little as 10 hours ... Simplicity Series never come back except for oil change and blade sharpening .

If you buy a new recycler toro,buy a carb rebuild kit now because you will need it soon

I hope you didn't buy the mower. We bought the John Deere JS48 from Lowes in March 2012 and it has been in to be repaired 3 times already (JD authorized service center, driven 210 miles so far for repairs). It is still not running correctly and I have lost faith it will ever run right. This past time the guy had to go pull one off the floor because he didn't assemble it correctly and it was revving, now it is the second time since we got it back again and doing the same thing as before. (they have had it 4 weeks for repairs and we have had to borrow neighbor's mower).

The best part, the local place tells us to talk to JD about it being a lemon and JD tells us we are stuck dealing with local place. This past time the customer service person told me I should be happy I have a 2 year warranty and it isn't costing us anything (I guess my time and the gas to drive 210 miles is free) to get it fixed.

The first time they told us no regular gas without ethanol stabilizer, so I went and bought smaller tank got stabilizer and put it in gas, it had carb issues again so took it back this time we were told ONLY marine grade fuel so I bought a new bigger gas can and paid big $$ for marine fuel. It still stopped running. This time they said it had junk in carb (remember new perfectly clean container) and said we were storing it in a dusty place (my garage).

I thought we were helping the US economy, never knew it was a chinese engine, never told us that. Our old mower still runs, just gave it to someone who couldn't afford a new one so I can't get it back. I feel like we have wasted $500+.

I just wish I had seen your site first before we bought this mower. I am going to tell anyone looking to buy a new machine to check here first.