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Kohler 27HP V-Twin - Won't start - getting frustrated, about to get baseball bat!!!

#1

B

boatman

Hello techs,
This is my first post, I hope I wish I came here sooner...

I own a Sears Craftsman DGT6000 with a Kohler 27HP (175hrs, 7 yrs old). It started making a huge backfire thru the carb. I checked compression, cylinder 1 = 150, cylinder 2 = 0. I pulled the head on cylinder 2 and discovered the hydraulic lifters were frozen wide open. I removed them and cleaned them internally, black tar came out of both, I suspect the holes got plugged and the oil was stuck inside. I put the lifters back in and now I had 150 compression on both! I noticed the exhaust lifter was not moving much, the engine sounded perfect at idle, then I when took it over 1800 rpm it would begin back firing thru the carb. I pulled the engine out and cracked the case open, the cam was worn down to a small bump for this exaust lifter. I replaced the cam (matching the dots on the cam & crank). Now it wont even try to start! I have replaced all four push rods, a couple were slightly bent, not seen by the naked eye, they wobled when I rolled them on a flat surface. I also replaced both valves on cylinder 2, just in case the stems were slightly bent. Still no cigar!, All it does is turn over and it will have a light back fire (puff/spit) out the carb when I close then open the choke.
I have pulled the engine out two more times, once to spin the cam 180 degrees (even though the service manual makes no mention of TDC). Another to confirm the cam lobes match up to the old one and to have a certified mechanic confirm the timing looks right. This has me baffled, it ran, though be it crappy, it ran w/a bad cam, lifters, push rods, and valves. Now, it is all replaced and doesnt even try. Please help, before I take a baseball bat to this thing!


#2

B

boatman

Also, I have checked the spark plug gap 3 times and I have fire.
I have sprayed fuel in the cylinder and put the spark plug in and doesnt seem to do a thing. When I spun the cam 180 degrees, it sounded identical.


#3

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

I'm not real familiar wiht that motor, and it's realy hard being right when you are going on what I know, from what youve posted. Not even seeing the engine....
But here goes:
The carb needs work.....
Try some starter fluid instead of gas and see if it will run.
Take some pictures of the carb and post them.
I think your are going to have to get the carb apart and clean with B12 chemtool.
You may have gotten some of the throttle linkage reversed when you worked on the heads, check that again, look for broken govenor springs..... or an open choke?


#4

B

boatman

Thanks for your response.
I was thinking an issue w/the carb.
I put a work shop paper towel between the intake and head, turn the engine over and it is bone dry.
I am attaching pics, I was able to keep most the linkage together when pulling the engine. The choke butterfly opens and closes, when I open the choke is when the carb spits/backfires lightly. The throttle appears to be working.

Attachments



















#5

BKBrown

BKBrown

Silly Question -- Is the carb. actually getting fuel ??? Could the fuel lines be blocked or the fuel filter plugged ??? :confused3: Is one of the safety switches turning off the flow to the carb. ??


#6

B

boatman

It has a vacuum operated fuel pump. The vacuum line is NOT blocked by oil, I blew it out. When I disconnect from the carb and turn the engine over it pumps fuel. When I turn the key on the wire going to the bottom of bowl on carb gets 12v. Fuel filter is brand new and facing the correct direction. I even took the carb to a local shop and had them do a test on the diaphram thing mounted on the bottom of the bowl. All checks out. I will say though, when I turn the engine over and over, then pull the plugs, they do not seem wet like I think I should see. I have sprayed fuel and ether into the cylinder and doesnt seem to help. Same old spit out the carb every tenth turn or so.


#7

BKBrown

BKBrown

OK -- is something keeping the main jet closed ??


#8

B

boatman

I dont know. How would I check this?


#9

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
OK -- is something keeping the main jet closed ??
Click to expand...

How would I check this?


#10

BKBrown

BKBrown

Have you had the float bowl off ? If not, the best way I know is to take the bowl off and let the float down - the needle valve should come out of the main jet (I am NOT familiar with this carb. so probably someone else knows more about it). It just sounds to me like you are not getting fuel thru the carb. into the cylinders. If you are sure the intake and exhaust vlaves are opening and closing and you get spark -- it seems like it has to be fuel.


#11

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
Have you had the float bowl off ? If not, the best way I know is to take the bowl off and let the float down - the needle valve should come out of the main jet (I am NOT familiar with this carb. so probably someone else knows more about it). It just sounds to me like you are not getting fuel thru the carb. into the cylinders. If you are sure the intake and exhaust vlaves are opening and closing and you get spark -- it seems like it has to be fuel.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your suggestions Mr.Brown, I will pull the carb in the morning and open it up and see what I find. I will update tomorrow.


#12

K

KennyV

You do indeed have a 'puzzler' ... even with no fuel, you should run on ether...
You have spark...
you have compression...
your timing is right...
anything flammable into the intake should make it run, even with the carb removed...

Do post back with what you find, you guys have covered everything I can think of...
I'll have to sleep on this one... :smile:KennyV


#13

B

Black Bart

I would check the valve timing.
If an engine backfires through the carb it is firing with the intake valve open


#14

M

mullins87

Does this engine have some new electronic ignition similar to an automotive system, or does it have the old style magnetic system that fires both plugs at the same time? If it is an electronic system, I'd bet the plugs are firing out of order. Try switching the plug wires.


#15

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

boatman said:
Thanks for your response.
I was thinking an issue w/the carb.
I put a work shop paper towel between the intake and head, turn the engine over and it is bone dry.
I am attaching pics, I was able to keep most the linkage together when pulling the engine. The choke butterfly opens and closes, when I open the choke is when the carb spits/backfires lightly. The throttle appears to be working.
Click to expand...

Now that I've seen the carb, I can tell you it looks to rather complicated to me so I can't really give you any more advice. Hopefully somone else has some experience with it. I would not be afraid to disassemble it. But giving advice from here may not get to where you want to be.
If you plan on taking it apart, keep the camera handy so you can refer back for reassembly.
I'm assuming you noticed the ground wire attached to a device between the carb and the intake manifold? Check that thing out and see if it is functional what ever it may be....... It may be a safety shutoff of some kind...


#16

B

boatman

Black Bart said:
I would check the valve timing.
If an engine backfires through the carb it is firing with the intake valve open
Click to expand...

I agree, it sounds like timing, but there isnt much you can do, there is NO adjustment, only match the dots on the cam and crank, I have confirmed this three times. I have turned the engine by hand and watched every stroke with the valves and fire all taking place at the right time, I had a car mechanic look and confirm it seems to be right. Stay tuned, I am uploading a video to youtube as we speak.


#17

B

boatman

mullins87 said:
Does this engine have some new electronic ignition similar to an automotive system, or does it have the old style magnetic system that fires both plugs at the same time? If it is an electronic system, I'd bet the plugs are firing out of order. Try switching the plug wires.
Click to expand...

It is the old style but, it fires them separately. It is a flywheel on top w/a magnet and seems to be firing right on time when I spin the engine by hand and watching the rockers. I am uploading a video to you tube as we speak, it is taking about 30 minutes. I will update here soon when it is ready.


#18

B

boatman

RobertBrown said:
Now that I've seen the carb, I can tell you it looks to rather complicated to me so I can't really give you any more advice. Hopefully somone else has some experience with it. I would not be afraid to disassemble it. But giving advice from here may not get to where you want to be.
If you plan on taking it apart, keep the camera handy so you can refer back for reassembly.
I'm assuming you noticed the ground wire attached to a device between the carb and the intake manifold? Check that thing out and see if it is functional what ever it may be....... It may be a safety shutoff of some kind...
Click to expand...

I was able to get the fuel working again, thanks for your suggestions. I think I had two issues, one down and one to go. The spark plugs are now getting wet. When I removed the bowl and float, I sprayed some cleaner into the input of the carb and seems to have cleared the line, now fuel is flowing as before, thanks again. I am uploading a video now, will update you soon when ready.


#19

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
Have you had the float bowl off ? If not, the best way I know is to take the bowl off and let the float down - the needle valve should come out of the main jet (I am NOT familiar with this carb. so probably someone else knows more about it). It just sounds to me like you are not getting fuel thru the carb. into the cylinders. If you are sure the intake and exhaust vlaves are opening and closing and you get spark -- it seems like it has to be fuel.
Click to expand...

I removed the bowl today and yes I found there was no fuel from the main connection into the bowl, that problem was resolved by spraying carb cleaner thru it. I now have my fuel back on the spark plugs, they are wet. I did my little shop towel test, placing it between the intake and cylinder, it is wet when I turn the engine over a couple of times (unlike before). I have added new spark plugs (just in case). It trys a little harder now (does a double pop thru the carb). But still not working, nor trying really. I have added a video: YouTube - Tractor Won't Start - Need some advice
It is a live video of how it sounds and I show the old cam.


#20

B

boatman

I have posted a video here: YouTube - Tractor Won't Start - Need some advice
Let me know if you want to see the spark, the fuel, the valves, I will gladly show you.


#21

BKBrown

BKBrown

Have you done compression tests after everything was put back together ?
Are you sure you are getting spark now (no safety switches open) ?
Did watch the video !

Maybe a STUPID question -- Did you put oil in to required level (low oil switch) ?
Have you checked all your fuses after the rebuild ?


#22

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
Have you done compression tests after everything was put back together ?
Are you sure you are getting spark now (no safety switches open) ?
Did watch the video !

Maybe a STUPID question -- Did you put oil in to required level (low oil switch) ?
Have you checked all your fuses after the rebuild ?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help Mr. Brown,
I have spark, it pops even louder now w/new plugs and fuel getting to them.
I dont think there is a safety switch issue. The seat is over ridden, the PTO switch wont even turn the engine over when it is on, the brake is on and engine wont turn when not on, the oil is fresh and at required level. I have NOT checked fuses, I figured I wouldnt have fuel and fire if a fuse was blown. Compression is 150 on both cylinders.


#23

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

boatman said:
Thanks for the help Mr. Brown,
I have spark, it pops even louder now w/new plugs and fuel getting to them.
I dont think there is a safety switch issue. The seat is over ridden, the PTO switch wont even turn the engine over when it is on, the brake is on and engine wont turn when not on, the oil is fresh and at required level. I have NOT checked fuses, I figured I wouldnt have fuel and fire if a fuse was blown. Compression is 150 on both cylinders.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's time to step away from it for a while, stand back and stroke your chin drink a beer or otherwise reduce the intensity. It's an engine after all and it will run.... eventually.
I don't know what the problem is but I get the feeling it's something you have not even considered.


#24

B

boatman

RobertBrown said:
Maybe it's time to step away from it for a while, stand back and stroke your chin drink a beer or otherwise reduce the intensity. It's an engine after all and it will run.... eventually.
I don't know what the problem is but I get the feeling it's something you have not even considered.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, I am going to have a beer, take the wife to dinner, then look at it tomorrow.
Thanks so much for your time on this!


#25

M

mullins87

boatman said:
Thanks for the help Mr. Brown,
I have spark, it pops even louder now w/new plugs and fuel getting to them.
I dont think there is a safety switch issue. The seat is over ridden, the PTO switch wont even turn the engine over when it is on, the brake is on and engine wont turn when not on, the oil is fresh and at required level. I have NOT checked fuses, I figured I wouldnt have fuel and fire if a fuse was blown. Compression is 150 on both cylinders.
Click to expand...

The fact that the engine is turning over tells me all the safety switches have been either defeated or overridden. Every rider I've had in the last 20 years wouldn't even turn over unless the clutch was disengaged, the PTO off and me sitting in the seat.

After seeing your video, it makes me think of an old Snapper LT16 that I have. It would run perfectly for about 45 minutes, then quit like I had shut if off with the key. It would crank over just like yours, but would never fire. I rebuilt the carb and fuel pump and replaced the ignition system....no change. The compression was around 145 on each cylinder, it was getting fuel and the spark looked strong enough. However, it still ran for about 45 minutes and then quit. Finally I got so frustrated with it that I parked it and bought another one.

Fast forward about 4 years to last winter. I decided to build an offset mower to pull behind the JD. I decided to use the deck off that LT16, and thought I'd give the engine one last try before I went and bought a new motor. I pulled it off the tractor, cobbled together enough wiring and a fuel system to make it run. Guess what, it ran perfectly. Something in the wiring on that old tractor frame was heating up and killing the motor. I never have figured it out, just glad the engine works.

My point.....disconnect all the wiring on the engine from your mower frame. All you'll need is some way to get power to the starter, and a wire to kill the spark when your ready to shut it down. Using a solenoid will make starting it less dramatic. I'm assuming everything mechanical has been triple checked. It's obvious you've got air and fuel, the only thing left is ignition. Something is killing your spark.

BTW: A blown fuse will not affect spark or fuel delivery on that engine.


#26

M

mullins87

Just watched your video again and noticed the engine has separate ignition coils. That rules out getting the plug wires reversed.


#27

B

boatman

mullins87 said:
The fact that the engine is turning over tells me all the safety switches have been either defeated or overridden. Every rider I've had in the last 20 years wouldn't even turn over unless the clutch was disengaged, the PTO off and me sitting in the seat.

After seeing your video, it makes me think of an old Snapper LT16 that I have. It would run perfectly for about 45 minutes, then quit like I had shut if off with the key. It would crank over just like yours, but would never fire. I rebuilt the carb and fuel pump and replaced the ignition system....no change. The compression was around 145 on each cylinder, it was getting fuel and the spark looked strong enough. However, it still ran for about 45 minutes and then quit. Finally I got so frustrated with it that I parked it and bought another one.

Fast forward about 4 years to last winter. I decided to build an offset mower to pull behind the JD. I decided to use the deck off that LT16, and thought I'd give the engine one last try before I went and bought a new motor. I pulled it off the tractor, cobbled together enough wiring and a fuel system to make it run. Guess what, it ran perfectly. Something in the wiring on that old tractor frame was heating up and killing the motor. I never have figured it out, just glad the engine works.

My point.....disconnect all the wiring on the engine from your mower frame. All you'll need is some way to get power to the starter, and a wire to kill the spark when your ready to shut it down. Using a solenoid will make starting it less dramatic. I'm assuming everything mechanical has been triple checked. It's obvious you've got air and fuel, the only thing left is ignition. Something is killing your spark.

BTW: A blown fuse will not affect spark or fuel delivery on that engine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help and time Mr. Mullins, I will try your suggestion on d/c all "extra" wiring tomorrow after church, It sounds worth a shot. On the fuse issue, I will check all fuses tomorrow as well. Thanks again for everyones suggestions!!!


#28

K

KennyV

Is there any difference in the sound it makes if you spray starting fluid into the carb while cranking it over? With the choke and throttle plates open...
:smile:KennyV


#29

B

boatman

KennyV said:
Is there any difference in the sound it makes if you spray starting fluid into the carb while cranking it over? With the choke and throttle plates open...
:smile:KennyV
Click to expand...

Hey Kenny,

I just tried, YES, it makes a difference, it is getting in the cylinder cause it is a much louder backfire thru the carb. It sent the dog in the house!


#30

B

boatman

Just and UPDATE:
I have now tried the starting fluid in the carb, just back fires louder.
I have checked ALL wiring, disconnected different switches (seat, pto, brake), appears as there is no oil shut off switch.
I have checked the one and only 30amp fuse.


#31

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
Have you done compression tests after everything was put back together ?
Are you sure you are getting spark now (no safety switches open) ?
Did watch the video !

Maybe a STUPID question -- Did you put oil in to required level (low oil switch) ?
Have you checked all your fuses after the rebuild ?
Click to expand...

Checked ALL of this. Great suggestions though.


#32

BKBrown

BKBrown

It is probably NOT a fuse, but I find it hard to believe there is only one fuse .

A backfire sounds like exhaust and intake may be reversed - I don't know how - You said you turned the crank 180 degrees. Did you reverse that after you got the fuel flowing ?

I'll admit I'm stumped !

SORRY !


#33

CajunCub

CajunCub

I did read all this stuff before posting, from what I've seen you did in #1....The carb. is not the problem. It is just out of time (Crank,Cam,Counter-Balancer,Governor Gear) Tear it all down again in the block....and remove it all and start over. You need to check the flywheel key to make sure it has not sheared by now too.


#34

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
It is probably NOT a fuse, but I find it hard to believe there is only one fuse .

A backfire sounds like exhaust and intake may be reversed - I don't know how - You said you turned the crank 180 degrees. Did you reverse that after you got the fuel flowing ?

I'll admit I'm stumped !

SORRY !
Click to expand...

I have NOT reversed it, but, looking at the service manual, it doesnt matter either way. Plus, I did spray fuel in the cylinder when the other way.


#35

B

boatman

CajunCub said:
I did read all this stuff before posting, from what I've seen you did in #1....The carb. is not the problem. It is just out of time (Crank,Cam,Counter-Balancer,Governor Gear) Tear it all down again in the block....and remove it all and start over. You need to check the flywheel key to make sure it has not sheared by now too.
Click to expand...

It is funny you mentionthe flywheel, I was just about to go re-rent the wheel puller, I did pull the flywheel the first time I opened the block, I thought it was required, I then learned it was not. So the next two times I opened the block, I didn't even touch the flywheel. So, if it sounds like timing and I am sure the cam and crank are good, I am thinking the only other thing left IS the flywheel. So, I guess I will go rent the wheel puller, I have a cheap two-armed one, but tends to bend when pulling on this flywheel.


#36

B

boatman

CajunCub said:
I did read all this stuff before posting, from what I've seen you did in #1....The carb. is not the problem. It is just out of time (Crank,Cam,Counter-Balancer,Governor Gear) Tear it all down again in the block....and remove it all and start over. You need to check the flywheel key to make sure it has not sheared by now too.
Click to expand...

UPDATE TO ALL: I have just removed the flywheel to find... A Freaking sheared key!!!
I am puzzled to how this could happen, it hasnt even ran, but what do I know?!?
It is too late, unless walmart sells them, to put a new key in. I will get one tomorrow and update again tomorrow, AGAIN I APPRECIATE EVERYONES PARTICIPATION IN THIS! I will update tomorrow.


#37

BKBrown

BKBrown

GLAD you found it -- Hope this solves your problem ! :thumbsup:


#38

K

KennyV

that will fix it...
:smile:KennyV


#39

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
GLAD you found it -- Hope this solves your problem ! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Thanks again Mr. Brown, I know you spent some time on this one w/me. I will keep you updated tomorrow, I am going to work on it as soon as the parts store opens, I will go to work later, this tractor must be fixed, It has had me baffled for 6 weeks.


#40

B

boatman

KennyV said:
that will fix it...
:smile:KennyV
Click to expand...

THanks Kenny, I was telling Mr. Brown I am putting work off until I get a key in this and try it in the morning, I also wanted to thank you for your time, I know we all have other lives as well. I will update you tomorrow as soon as I know.


#41

B

boatman

CajunCub said:
I did read all this stuff before posting, from what I've seen you did in #1....The carb. is not the problem. It is just out of time (Crank,Cam,Counter-Balancer,Governor Gear) Tear it all down again in the block....and remove it all and start over. You need to check the flywheel key to make sure it has not sheared by now too.
Click to expand...

I wanted to thank you Mr. Cajun for your advice on this one, looks like you could be right on the sheared key, I will get one first thing in the morning and keep you updated, this key was in three pieces when I pulled the fly wheel off. I know when I put it back on it was all clean and correct, but possibly it back fired when I hit the starter or something, I am not really sure.


#42

K

KennyV

Glad you found this... you had ran out of single issue problems... I was trying to think of multiple problems that could do this:confused2:...
When you put the nut back on the fly wheel, get it tight... all it takes is one kick back and if loose, it'll shear that soft aluminum key... :smile:KennyV


#43

CajunCub

CajunCub

The reason a flywheel key shears after a rebuild most often is, the flywheel did not get tourqued down tight enough....Get the 1/2" impact & Hammer that Thing back down!:laughing:
Glad to hear that you found your problem...Your Welcome!:biggrin:


#44

B

boatman

KennyV said:
Glad you found this... you had ran out of single issue problems... I was trying to think of multiple problems that could do this:confused2:...
When you put the nut back on the fly wheel, get it tight... all it takes is one kick back and if loose, it'll shear that soft aluminum key... :smile:KennyV
Click to expand...

Thanks, Kenny, that was it, the engine sounds great! It started right up.


#45

B

boatman

CajunCub said:
The reason a flywheel key shears after a rebuild most often is, the flywheel did not get tourqued down tight enough....Get the 1/2" impact & Hammer that Thing back down!:laughing:
Glad to hear that you found your problem...Your Welcome!:biggrin:
Click to expand...

Point well taken Cajuncub, I have now beared it down real good, and it runs like a top!
Thanks so much, it sounds great!


#46

BKBrown

BKBrown

OUTSTANDING !!!!! :thumbsup: !!!!! :thumbsup: :biggrin: :thumbsup: :biggrin:


Not an idea I gave you, but after everything you did it SHOULD run Great :thumbsup: !


#47

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
OUTSTANDING !!!!! :thumbsup: !!!!! :thumbsup: :biggrin: :thumbsup: :biggrin:


Not an idea I gave you, but after everything you did it SHOULD run Great :thumbsup: !
Click to expand...

Ok, so I get it all together and it runs great, then I kill it, now, it starts for one second and dies, and continues this until I leave it alone and come back a hour or two later.
I just sprayed the carb out and jet and does the same thing, the fuel pump works great, the fuel is fresh, the fuel filter is about 1.5 inches in diameter and has very little in the bottom of it, it lays horizontal. Any Ideas?


#48

J

jeff

Yep, you say there is a little debris in the filter. I will sugest that a small piece of that has worked it's way into the carb somewhere. I think a very good carb soak is in order. I Like to use distilled vinegar, but you could use berrymans or some other goodcleaner.


#49

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

Did you adjust the valves to the correct specs?


#50

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

CajunCub said:
The reason a flywheel key shears after a rebuild most often is, the flywheel did not get tourqued down tight enough....Get the 1/2" impact & Hammer that Thing back down!:laughing:
Glad to hear that you found your problem...Your Welcome!:biggrin:
Click to expand...

A flywheel nut should be turqed to the correct specs, you can risk stripping the threads or cracking the flywheel with a impact.
Bolt should be reinstalled with a turqe wrench, not a impact gun.


#51

CajunCub

CajunCub

TRcustoms, I Begg your pardon DUDE....but, an "IMPACT GUN" IS the way to do it! I have used impacts on flywheel nuts for 30 years & Never once have I stripped a nut/cracked a flywheel or even seen a stripped flywheel nut because of over tightening...


#52

BKBrown

BKBrown

Some people just need to show off - FYI it's torque !

Ignore ignorance ! :biggrin:


#53

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

CajunCub said:
TRcustoms, I Begg your pardon DUDE....but, an "IMPACT GUN" IS the way to do it! I have used impacts on flywheel nuts for 30 years & Never once have I stripped a nut/cracked a flywheel or even seen a stripped flywheel nut because of over tightning......See, this is the kind of "CRAP" that pisses me off! Can't you just be happy this member got his problem fixed "without" correcting me for telling him how to do it AFTER it's done & running? If you're so damn smart why didn't you think of it before? GFY!:mad:
Click to expand...

Sorry..., But that's the way my training class told me to do it... guess there wrong too.


#54

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

BKBrown said:
Some people just need to show off - FYI it's torque !

Ignore ignorance ! :biggrin:
Click to expand...
oop's sorry it was late! lol


#55

B

boatman

Trcustoms719 said:
Did you adjust the valves to the correct specs?
Click to expand...

They are hydraulic lifters and require no adjustment, simply torque the rockers down.


#56

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

boatman said:
They are hydraulic lifters and require no adjustment, simply torque the rockers down.
Click to expand...

Oh..ok, It'd hard to know everything about every engine on the top of my head..lol
But it is running now I believe i read rite?


#57

B

boatman

Trcustoms719 said:
Oh..ok, It'd hard to know everything about every engine on the top of my head..lol
But it is running now I believe i read rite?
Click to expand...

Negative, However, It is all downhill from here. This thing has fought me every step of the way! I am now down to hopefully the last "issue" I have w/this thing. It starts and runs great, then it seems like it runs out of gas and dies when it warms up (or enough time goes by to clear the bowl). If you try to start it, it will start right up for 1 second, then die. If you let it sit there for an hour or two, it will start all over again. It is like it isn't getting enough fuel, but he fuel pump works great, I have tested and can post video to show the volume, if needed. Other helpful members here have suggested soaking the carb, I gave it a good cleaning. I did notice one thing during this... Inside the bowl has a slight scratch and a hole/crack in the side. I saw it when I was spraying a hole on the carb and spray came "pissing" out of it. It was right on the side of the bowl. I didn't think much about it thinking it was just spraying into the bowl, now I am wondering if it is leaking out of the bowl into this other chamber. I did have a guy take the carb to clean and check the electrical solenoid on the bottom of the bowl back when the engine wouldn't start at all, I am wondering if he did something, there IS a noticeable scratch. Here is my question, can I repair this w/JB Weld? I have never worked w/it.


#58

BKBrown

BKBrown

JB Weld is GREAT stuff -- just make sure the surface is CLEAN and rough it up a little with wire brush or fine sand paper. Make sure it isn't so thick it is interfering with anything.
Picture of the crack ? - Video not necessary.


#59

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
JB Weld is GREAT stuff -- just make sure the surface is CLEAN and rough it up a little with wire brush or fine sand paper. Make sure it isn't so thick it is interfering with anything.
Picture of the crack ? - Video not necessary.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Mr. Brown, I will take a pic tomorrow and post. I was busy today and didn't even touch the tractor today. I will pull the carb tomorrow and show you the crack and probably try to JB Weld it.


#60

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

boatman said:
Negative, However, It is all downhill from here. This thing has fought me every step of the way! I am now down to hopefully the last "issue" I have w/this thing. It starts and runs great, then it seems like it runs out of gas and dies when it warms up (or enough time goes by to clear the bowl). If you try to start it, it will start right up for 1 second, then die. If you let it sit there for an hour or two, it will start all over again. It is like it isn't getting enough fuel, but he fuel pump works great, I have tested and can post video to show the volume, if needed. Other helpful members here have suggested soaking the carb, I gave it a good cleaning. I did notice one thing during this... Inside the bowl has a slight scratch and a hole/crack in the side. I saw it when I was spraying a hole on the carb and spray came "pissing" out of it. It was right on the side of the bowl. I didn't think much about it thinking it was just spraying into the bowl, now I am wondering if it is leaking out of the bowl into this other chamber. I did have a guy take the carb to clean and check the electrical solenoid on the bottom of the bowl back when the engine wouldn't start at all, I am wondering if he did something, there IS a noticeable scratch. Here is my question, can I repair this w/JB Weld? I have never worked w/it.
Click to expand...

Just because a fuel pump has good volume doesn't mean it's making enough pressure.
I've seen this problem many times with car fuels pumps where people think there good cause of volume but, when you hook up a pressure tester they read 0 or not enough.


#61

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
JB Weld is GREAT stuff -- just make sure the surface is CLEAN and rough it up a little with wire brush or fine sand paper. Make sure it isn't so thick it is interfering with anything.
Picture of the crack ? - Video not necessary.
Click to expand...

I am posting pics of the carb. Two things - 1) there is definately a pin hole where a scratch is, i think I can just JBWeld it, 2) there is a hole below it that has some scratches on it, I am wondering if this should be plugged up.

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#62

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
JB Weld is GREAT stuff -- just make sure the surface is CLEAN and rough it up a little with wire brush or fine sand paper. Make sure it isn't so thick it is interfering with anything.
Picture of the crack ? - Video not necessary.
Click to expand...

I have attached pics of the carb, two things...
1) You will see the pin hole at the scratch
2) There is another factor hole, but appears some scratching had taken place there too, I am wondering if this hole should be plugged.

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#63

B

boatman

Trcustoms719 said:
Just because a fuel pump has good volume doesn't mean it's making enough pressure.
I've seen this problem many times with car fuels pumps where people think there good cause of volume but, when you hook up a pressure tester they read 0 or not enough.
Click to expand...

Point well taken Mr. Customs, take a look at my pics of the carb and let me know your thoughts.


#64

M

mullins87

This fuel pump doesn't pressurize....at least I don't think it does, at least not once it pumps the fuel into the bowl. I'm pretty certain it uses plain ole' engine vacuum to suck the fuel into the intake stream. Put only enough JB Weld on the outside of the bowl to plug the hole and you should be back in business. That larger hole looks like it could be a passage way.

I'm so glad you fixed your main problem. I think you're just about to get it whipped now. :thumbsup: But, just in case you don't, I'd be willing to take it off your hands for $50. :biggrin:


#65

BKBrown

BKBrown

I'd give you $100 if you deliver ! :laughing: :thumbsup:

Seriously - You have everything else fixed or replaced - If this doesn't work, I'd get a new or rebuilt carb. and fire her up !

Once you have it running I want video !!!!!!! :thumbsup: :eek: :biggrin:


#66

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

mullins87 said:
This fuel pump doesn't pressurize....at least I don't think it does, at least not once it pumps the fuel into the bowl. I'm pretty certain it uses plain ole' engine vacuum to suck the fuel into the intake stream. Put only enough JB Weld on the outside of the bowl to plug the hole and you should be back in business. That larger hole looks like it could be a passage way.

I'm so glad you fixed your main problem. I think you're just about to get it whipped now. :thumbsup: But, just in case you don't, I'd be willing to take it off your hands for $50. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

If it doesn't then i wonder why they would even have one..
Cause other engines work just fine with gravity feed, I would think any pump should creat just a little bit of pressure.
It sure sucks not being there in person..:frown:


#67

M

mullins87

Trcustoms719 said:
If it doesn't then i wonder why they would even have one..
Cause other engines work just fine with gravity feed, I would think any pump should creat just a little bit of pressure.
It sure sucks not being there in person..:frown:
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, we could have had this thing purring like a kitten by now if we could have just put our hands on it. The vacuum fuel pumps that are on lots of these engines only produce enough "pressure" to cause the fuel to flow from the tank to the carb. Yes, you are correct, there has to be some pressure to make it happen, otherwise gravity will force the fuel back into the tank, as it is most likely mounted lower than the carb. However, I doubt any of us have equipment sensitive enough to measure this pressure.


#68

Trcustoms719

Trcustoms719

mullins87 said:
Oh yeah, we could have had this thing purring like a kitten by now if we could have just put our hands on it. The vacuum fuel pumps that are on lots of these engines only produce enough "pressure" to cause the fuel to flow from the tank to the carb. Yes, you are correct, there has to be some pressure to make it happen, otherwise gravity will force the fuel back into the tank, as it is most likely mounted lower than the carb. However, I doubt any of us have equipment sensitive enough to measure this pressure.
Click to expand...

True.., It probably isn't even making 1lbs of pressure..


#69

BKBrown

BKBrown

OK - I'm just a curious old man -- is it running yet ?


#70

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
OK - I'm just acurious old man -- is it running yet ?
Click to expand...

I apoligize guys, I had to take a few days off from this before I go nuts.
I have cleaned the carb inside and out, I removed the JBWeld from the pinhole, it IS supposed to be there. I removed the flywheel again, just to make sure it wasnt sheared again, I went ahead and replaced w/a new one, It did look a little bent, and I torqued to about 65ft. lbs (manual says 49).
It starts immediately, but also dies immediately, here is the video: YouTube - ‪Craftsman 27hp Kohler - Starts, then Dies - Please Help with Advice‬‏
Let me know your thoughts.


#71

B

boatman

Trcustoms719 said:
If it doesn't then i wonder why they would even have one..
Cause other engines work just fine with gravity feed, I would think any pump should creat just a little bit of pressure.
It sure sucks not being there in person..:frown:
Click to expand...

I am begining to lean towards fuel pressure, here is the video: YouTube - ‪Craftsman 27hp Kohler - Starts, then Dies - Please Help with Advice‬‏


#72

BKBrown

BKBrown

It was my understanding that the Solenoid in the carb was supposed to OPEN the valve to allow fuel flow. ????

Did you actually check out the ignition switch ? It almost sounds like when you start it and let go of the key the ignition stops - Is your ignition switch shorting out the coils when in the run position ?

Does it now run if you spray gas (like with a squirt bottle) into the carb intake - or any longer if you use starting fluid ??


#73

B

boatman

BKBrown said:
It was my understanding that the Solenoid in the carb was supposed to OPEN the valve to allow fuel flow. ????

Did you actually check out the ignition switch ? It almost sounds like when you start it and let go of the key the ignition stops - Is your ignition switch shorting out the coils when in the run position ?

Does it now run if you spray gas (like with a squirt bottle) into the carb intake - or any longer if you use starting fluid ??
Click to expand...

It was my understanding the Solenoid shut the fuel supply off when the key is off, I wanted to make sure it was NOT shutting off the fuel supply. I tried just leaving the key engaged, and it does the same thing. I tried to keep it running by spraying starting fluid into the carb, it didn't do a thing. I would think I would notice a difference here. I just pulled the plugs and they have fire the entire time I turn over the engine.


#74

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

boatman said:
It was my understanding the Solenoid shut the fuel supply off when the key is off, I wanted to make sure it was NOT shutting off the fuel supply. I tried just leaving the key engaged, and it does the same thing. I tried to keep it running by spraying starting fluid into the carb, it didn't do a thing. I would think I would notice a difference here. I just pulled the plugs and they have fire the entire time I turn over the engine.
Click to expand...

I ask that you examine the hardware the supports the bowl to the carb body. Understand the the carb body has a tube that is surrounded by the the float. This tube is the pickup and i'm not sure how the carb and the bowl go together but it's in this area that old gas and varnish accumulate. Does the fastener that holds the bowl to the carb have provisions for conducting fuel from the bowl to the carb? Is there a conduit in this assembly that could still be obstructed?
Check out this problem I had last year and how I fixed it. The problem was the bolt that holds the bowl to the carb......
http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/small-engine-mower-repair/1157-need-expert-opinion.html


#75

BKBrown

BKBrown

I understood that the solenoid in the carb closed (normally closed) with key off and opened with key on (so fuel could not flow with key off). With that wire disconnected you would not power (open) the solenoid.

You would get a spark all the time key is in START (with starter turning) position - is the switch grounding out your coil in the RUN (running but not turning starter) position. So is there continuity between the run and off positions of your starter switch.

I commend you for hanging in there on this one -- I might have given up and taken it to a mechanic - before I got so angry that the result would not be pretty ! :eek:

Have you asked the questions on the Kohler web site ?


#76

K

Kenwurth

Jeepers mate you're really having problems aren't you ... just a suggestion from down-under (NZ - Kiwi land).

Have you had the battery disconnected and then reconnected??? - sounds very much to me like you are cranking the engine the wrong rotation.:confused2:


#77

B

boatman

Ok, I am back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I HAD to take a break on this thing, I was beginning to hit it with my head!!!!

I had found the sheared key, still didnt start, I replaced the carburetor with a new one ($200), IT STARTED RIGHT UP!!!!????!!!!????
I had cleaned the old one inside and out 4 freaking times!!!!
Anyway, I was so glad to see the thing was running, so I put a for sale sign on it in the front yard (North Texas). Last summer's heat broke records, we never had rain (no grass to mow), it sat for two months with zero calls, so I ended up moving back into the garage for the fall/winter. This is when the problems came back -- after sitting in the hot sun for two months, I was back to square one!!! THE SAME FREAKING THING!!! It will start quickly, then die. Well, I knew what it had to be, a dirty carb. I cleaned the brand new carb (20 min. run time, but sat with 10% ethanol fuel for 2 months in the heat). So, I cleaned it spic and span, it sounded a little different now and thought the key had sheared again, so I ordered a new one and put in yesterday, BACK TO SQUARE ONE!!! It will start, then die, the difference from before, I can spray starting fluid in it, it will run on it, I can spray carb cleaner, it will run on it, It will even run on its own fuel (which was drained and replaced this year). I think I am about to give up and take it in, but know that the mechanic will just start replacing stuff until it starts. I just don't get it, I bought the brand new carb, it ran GREAT, sounded strong, sounded like the day I bought it, it had tons of power, then after sitting it is back to square one. I know I have gotten a ton of help here and thought I would update the forum. If needed, I will be glad to post a video tonight.


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