I have a Troy-Bilt tiller with an 8 hp Kohler K181ST-301006. It is electric start. It has point and condenser. It won't start, getting fuel but no spark. I used an inline spark tester and I'm getting nothing. I tested the points and they were not making contact. I cleaned the points and gapped them and they tested out great, good contact. I rechecked with the inline spark tested but still nothing. I used a small lighted current tester and connected it to the spark plug cap. When I turned the engine over it was lighting up. That led me to believe the coil is sending a spark, just an extremely weak spark, not enough to light up the inline spark tester. Would this indicate a problem with the coil or a problem with the condenser? I was inclined to go ahead and order a condenser since that was cheap and easy to swap.
Another question about this. There were three wires connecting to the condenser, one wire going to the points, one wire going to the ignition switch and one wire going to the grounding tab on the linkage panel that continues on from there to go behind the shroud to where I am assuming it connects to the stator. In the picture you can see the three different wires, I have them disconnected. I tested the connections, with all three wires connected to the condenser, the condenser showed to be grounded. I disconnected the three wires and the condenser tab was not grounded. Each one of the three wires were tested separately and showed they all were grounded. The wire going to the stator was grounded even after I disconnected it from the ground tab on the linkage panel. Should those three wires be grounded? Doesn't seem to me that they should.
I was going to remove the flywheel just to check the shaft key but I wasn't able to remove the flywheel so I gave up on it. Not a big deal except I was not able to inspect the coil or magnets.
I know very little about electrical circuits so please help me out here.
I was able to determine what my wiring should be. At some point this has been tinkered with. I attached the correct wiring diagram. I should have two wires from the condenser, one going to the points and one going to the coil. I should have a wire from the key switch to the coil and a wire from the coil to the condenser. I only have one wiring coming off my coil. Does that wire connect to the condenser or the key switch OR can it connect to both since the one going to the condenser and then to the points is just to ground it when the points close?
The points connect to the condenser, but does it really matter where the points connect within that circuit? As long as it supplies a ground when the points close, couldn't the points connect at the condenser, at the coil or anywhere else inline?
I said I had three wires connecting to the condenser. 1) hotwire going to the key switch, 2) wire going to the coil, 3) grounding wire connecting to the points.
In my attached pictures you will see two pictures of the coil with the bearing plate removed. I am pointing to the one wire that comes from the coil. It is attached to a secondary inline grounding circuit on the linkage panel (for the Stop position on the throttle control). Should that wire connect to the key switch or the condenser, or can it connect to both AT the condenser tab (which is what I have done)? The picture on the carb side I am point to that same wire where it is currently connected to the condenser tab. Below my hand you can see the second wire that is connecting the condenser tab to the points. You can see the third wire on the condenser tab that is disconnected, I had that wire connecting to the key switch. Finally you see me pointing to the disconnected wire from the key switch. According to the wiring diagram it should connect to the coil but there is not a second wire coming off the coil so if I can't connect that to the condenser tab, where do I connect it?
Read pages 8.2 and 8.3 in the manual I attached earlier. It talks about the battery ignition system which you have and the diagram 8-3 is the one you want to follow. If you have more questions after you have read that post back.
Thank Rivet, I missed that earlier but that sure makes more sense. The one wire from my coil connects to both the condenser and the points. Where does the wire connect that is coming from the key switch? Does that connect to my condenser?
I was with you but you lost me there. I do not have a coil like that pictured in 8.3. I don't have two wires, a positive and negative. My coil (pictured in previous post) is attached to the stator mounted under the flywheel. I only have one wire, and according to the diagram in 8.2 that wire goes to the points and condenser. That all makes sense but leaves the key switch wire with no place to go.
You may be in over your head. If the wire comes from under the flywheel, you have a magneto system, not a battery coil system. Stators are used on charging systems and have nothing to do with the ignition system on the K engines. You are going to have to read all of section 8 in the manual to identify which system you have and how to wire it. This manual is the easiest to us, so follow it's directions and diagrams, after you know which system you have.
I do have a magneto system, or at least I think I do, please look at that earlier photo and tell me. I also have a stator to recharge the battery for the electric starter.
The confusion is likely because of my improper use of terms. I've always referred to the magneto as a coil. I didn't mean a true coil, but that's obviously how it sounded.
No, the confusion is on my part, I didn't look carefully at your pics. I didn't notice the two charging coils mounted on your magneto. My fault, sorry. Because I am not there I'm having a very difficult time seeing and understanding the wiring. If it was in front of me it would be a no brainer, but my meter won't read through the Internet. Bert, IL, do either of you have time to post on this one. I think I know how it should be wired, but don't know how to explain it, so the OP will understand. Stick around, together we'll solve this together.
Thanks Rivets, I know this stuff is old hat to you guys and I'm sure it tiresome dealing with people like me with just enough sense to be dangerous. I'm trying to learn though.
OK,
A couple of questions .
Was it working before ?
If so how did you stop it ?
You said the wire to the ignition was "Hot" bu that do you mean it gets 12 V when you turn the ignition on and goes 0 V with the ignition off ?
If it is a kettering system ( battery coil ) then the ignition switch will supply 12 V to turn on the sparks
If it is a magnet ignition then the wire from the ignition switch will go open to turn on the sparks and close to ground to turn the sparks off.
I am not familiar with this particular engine but will do some digging tonight ( your Mon morning ) and get back to you tommorrow.
Right now I am up to my arm pits in a Bolens/ Troybult Duratrack which is giving me much grief.
Thanks Bert. This was not running when I got it. I was told they took it in on trade with no history and they determined "it needs a coil". It had no spark. The points were not making contact so I had to clean them. I don't know how they could determine that it needed a coil when the points were not even grounding.
So the wire coming from the key start was not connected but was routed to and hanging down near the points and condenser so i don't know where else it might connect.
I have a fresh battery reading 12.53 VDC. With the key switch off that wire reads 0 VDC. When I turn the key to the run position. The wire reads .108 VDC and when I move the switch over to the start position the wire bumps up to .150 VDC.
I thought the wire would connect to the condenser to bump up the volts a little to increase the spark, but I don't really know if it works that way or not.
I feel confident the one wire coming from the magneto (not the spark plug wire of course) connects to both the points and condenser.
If the wire from the key start is supposed to go to the condenser as well, is there any problem with the way I have it wired in the photo in the first post? Can I connect the points, the magneto and the key switch wires together all at the condenser tab?
You disconnect the kill wire and rotate the engine .
No spark = bad coil on the assumption that the points have been replaced with an electric trigger.
What do you get between ground and that wire with the ignition on & off. ?
Assemble as is.
Condensers go parallel to the points .
They are there to prevent arcing & thus burning as the points open or close.
It should produce a spark with that wire sitting loose and no spark with that wire grounded.
Use your Ohm meter to measure the resistance of the secondary winding in the coil by placing one end on the Plug cap and the other on the place where the winding from the coils are grounded to the laminations.
Then do the same from the wire that goes from the coil to the points and the same grounding place on the coil.
I have not read the manual Rivets posted but there should be readings for primary ( points to coil ) and secondary ( plug to coil ) resistances.
They should both be between 2 & 10 ohms
If you get 0 reading or an infinate ( overlaod ) reading then the winding is either short circuit or open circuit.
Again you can do both of these without cleaning the points.
After that you measure from the other side of the points to make sure you are making & breaking a circuit as the points open & close.
Some of the troybilt tillers were set up with a three position key switch. So you could have a wire going from the key switch to the points/condensor, which is to kill the engine when you turn the key off.. A wire going from the points/condensor to the kill system on the throttle lever, which kills the engine when pulled all the way to the stop position, and a wire going from the points/condensor to the module next to the flywheel . Be aware that if battery voltage has been introduced to this system the module next to the flywheel is cooked.
Some systems were set up with a two position key switch and in that case there shouldn't be a wire from the points to the switch. For testing disconnect all the wire except the wire going from the module to the points/condensor and see if you have fire. If your haven't replaced the points and condensor I would do that next, and if that fails then replace the module itself.
then system is started by advancing the throttle, turning the key to the start position or by turning on the key, and using the rope to start the engine.
Thank you both for the information, very good stuff. ILengine, You may be on to something. While I checked the voltage on that wire coming from the key switch and it was a very nominal .108 VDC, I did not check it for ground in the off position. I assumed the key switch itself was grounded and that killed the engine when the switch was in the off position but I could see an application where a wired kill switch might be more reliable. I will check that when I get home. Sending out a tenth of a volt in the run position sure doesn't make sense to me, I don't know how that would be useful. If it is a ground wire that would really explain everything and then I would imagine that wire could be connect anywhere within that circuit.
Let me get back to this reoccurring question, the wiring diagram shows the wire coming from the points splitting in two, one wire going to the condenser and the second going to the magneto. Does it matter at all if (for simplicity) I have all of these wires connect at the condenser tab? By that I mean the wire from the points, the wire to the magneto, and the wire coming from the key switch (assuming that it is indeed a ground) all three connecting at the tab on the condenser.
Once I know the wiring is correct then I am going to attempt to diagnose the lack of spark. I plan to attempt some of the testing that Bert described.
0.1 V is in the vicinity of leakage inside the switch due to accumulation of conductive debris or semi conductive corrosion products.
Flood the switch with some cleaning / dewatering fluid like WD 40 and that 0,1 V will most likely vanish.
I have a stash of Rover Rancher 2's and they all have the cut out on the throttle as you would have on a push mower engine.
So no excuses for me not twigging to it.
Looks like Ilengine will this months Freddo Frog award. :thumbsup:
I tested the wire from the key switch. In the off position it is grounded. It breaks ground in the run and start positions. Unless you tell me otherwise I'll assume it's okay to connect the key switch ground, points and magneto ground wires all together at the condenser.
Many thanks to ILENGINE for spotting that for me.
I have found and electronic ignition kit to do away with the points and condenser. It's part number
2575710S Electronic Ignition Kit by Kohler. If I was going to replace the condenser anyway for $20 I thought about spending $50 for the kit. Wondering if anyone had experience with it and if I should change that.
If the new consdenser doesn't give me spark I guess I'll look at this impossible to find magneto.
Before you connect the the electronic points eliminator please give the ignition switch a tub as per my previous post.
The modules are very sensitive to CURRENT ie AMPS and will fry if hooked up to a battery.
No idea is your 0.1 V will be a problem when running or if it is an accurate reading but at $ 50 a pop a good soak in WD 40 and some wiggling of the key is cheap insurance.
The module is based on the Atom unit invented down here in the early 60's but not universally adopted till the 90's when the patients ran out.
I can not see $ 50 value in it as the chip is around $ 1 .
Old Atoms are around $ 20 to $ 30 and the briggs module is around $ 20.
Now that I have the wiring issue straightened out I reassembled and reset the points, checked the timing and then tested with the pull start. I had to order a grommet for the fuel tank so I can't start it now but I checked it with an inline spark tester and I am getting a weak but very steady spark. The spark is weak but every few turns it will flash a bright hot spark. I have not replaced the spark plug, it looks okay but I'll see if that makes a difference. In the event that it is not the spark plug, is there anything else I should focus on as the cause of the weak spark? Is that more likely to be a condenser issue, a magneto issue or something else?
I appreciate the help so far. It appears that my main issue was the points not making contact. Once I cleaned and set the points I'm getting good spark. I did clean the magneto pickups and the magnets, they weren't bad but there was a little surface rust. I also cleaned the key switch contacts. I don't know if any of that helped but it sure hasn't hurt.
Turns out the wiring is back how I had it set originally so after all that back and forth the wiring ended up not being an issue. The help was necessary nonetheless because I had to make sure the wiring was right before I could go any further.
I'm anxious to try the new plug and to get the tank and starter on to see if I can get it running. Any other suggestions about the weak spark issue would be appreciated.
A bad condensor that is shorting out to ground can give a bad spark but more likely it is a speed thing.
The faster magnetos spin the better the spark.
Generally you test the strength with a 3 point spark tester.
A good coil will throw a 3/4" spark in air.
Cheap & nasty tester is a clear biro tube with a length of Copper core spark lead in both ends.
One end goes to the spark plug & the other goes to the spark plug lead, same as an inline spark tester .
You slide one wire along the tube to increase the gap, pull the starter then side it a bit further and pull the starter and keep going till you get no spark or the gap gets t 3/4".
In the old days when plugs were expensive we used this tool to force a fouled plug to work rather than the spark run down the side of the terminals.
Biro tube is a good insulator so you can move the wires without getting zapped.
In the 50's a similar device was a common bodge rather than fitting a hotter plug to burn off deposits.
Then in the 60's, 70's & 80's snake oil salesmen packaged the same thing into a little box called them Spark enhansers and sold thousands to gullible car owners who though you could get something for nothing.
I rechecked the point gap, it was 0.025. It is supposed to be 0.020. When they say that they mean it! I set it to 0.020. Got the fuel tank mounted. Spark looked good. Put it together and cranked it up and it ran like a champ!
Sounds like the condenser or magneto is not the best, but as it goes now , don't fix it.
Double check the spark plug grade to make sure you have not got a resistor plug.
The resistor plug is the same as widening the gap and if too big, the spark just does not have enough energy to jump.
