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Interesting blurb regarding gasoline
#1
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Hi All,
While looking for parts on parts tree.com, this blurb on the bottom of the page was interesting;
Fuel Selection
Today's gasoline breaks down quickly. When it does, it leaves behind a thick varnish-like residue that adheres to the walls of its container, including the inside of the fuel system in your lawn equipment. Further, "regular" gas may have 10%, or more, alcohol, which attracts and blends with water, causing carburetor problems and the breakdown of lubricating mix-oils in 2-cycle equipment. Lawn equipment is especially prone to these fuel problems because the equipment is not run daily allowing time for the fuel to deteriorate and absorb water. For best results, avoid alcohol-blended fuels in 4-cycle lawn equipment and never use high-alcohol blends in your 2-cycle equipment. "Mid-grade" and "premium" fuels generally are not blended with alcohol.
Regards
Jeff
While looking for parts on parts tree.com, this blurb on the bottom of the page was interesting;
Fuel Selection
Today's gasoline breaks down quickly. When it does, it leaves behind a thick varnish-like residue that adheres to the walls of its container, including the inside of the fuel system in your lawn equipment. Further, "regular" gas may have 10%, or more, alcohol, which attracts and blends with water, causing carburetor problems and the breakdown of lubricating mix-oils in 2-cycle equipment. Lawn equipment is especially prone to these fuel problems because the equipment is not run daily allowing time for the fuel to deteriorate and absorb water. For best results, avoid alcohol-blended fuels in 4-cycle lawn equipment and never use high-alcohol blends in your 2-cycle equipment. "Mid-grade" and "premium" fuels generally are not blended with alcohol.
Regards
Jeff
#2
TonyPrin
Having said that, most of the balance of the quote is accurate or close enough. The issue applies to all small engines. There's plenty you can do to avoid the problem. My approach is to treat the gas with a good stabilizer (Sta-Bil or Sea Foam, for example) and not store more gas than I'll need for a month.
TonyPrin
Your find demonstrates that you can find anything on the internet. There is absolutely no basis for this statement. With rare exceptions all gasolines are blended in the same manner irrespective of grade."Mid-grade" and "premium" fuels generally are not blended with alcohol.
Having said that, most of the balance of the quote is accurate or close enough. The issue applies to all small engines. There's plenty you can do to avoid the problem. My approach is to treat the gas with a good stabilizer (Sta-Bil or Sea Foam, for example) and not store more gas than I'll need for a month.
#3
2smoked
Tony, if what you say is true, why are most of the pumps in my area specifically labeled "0% added ethanol" for premium? (Oh NO!!--looks like we have the beginnings of a gasoline debate thread).
2smoked
Your find demonstrates that you can find anything on the internet. There is absolutely no basis for this statement. With rare exceptions all gasolines are blended in the same manner irrespective of grade.
Having said that, most of the balance of the quote is accurate or close enough. The issue applies to all small engines. There's plenty you can do to avoid the problem. My approach is to treat the gas with a good stabilizer (Sta-Bil or Sea Foam, for example) and not store more gas than I'll need for a month.
Tony, if what you say is true, why are most of the pumps in my area specifically labeled "0% added ethanol" for premium? (Oh NO!!--looks like we have the beginnings of a gasoline debate thread).
#4
L
lewb
L
lewb
I travel the Midwest (ia,il,ne,mn,in,oh,) Many states now you can only get blended gas (il,mn,in,oh) from what I have seen. Ironically two of the biggest corn producing states NE and IA you can still find straight gas in 87 and 91 readily. I have never had a problem with non ethanol gas left in mower or snow blower as well as gas can for 6 months or longer. Just my experience. Right now I am using some 85 octane non ethanol that I bought in WY while snowmobiling back in March. This gas will last most of the summer.
#5
TonyPrin
Now, if that's correct almosty all the gasoline sold in the US must contain ethanol and there's no way a substantial amount of premium gas could be ethanol free or the average wouldn't be 10%. (Note that it's actually over 10% because a small amount of gasoline is E15.) I'm not suggesting there aren't exceptions. Of course there are. Also, I'm not an EPA fan but that doesn't make their statement wrong. If someone has another authoritative source, it would be good to see it.
BTW, here's a link to the EPA site:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=4
TonyPrin
I can be wrong on anything, including this but here's a quote from the EPA:Tony, if what you say is true, why are most of the pumps in my area specifically labeled "0% added ethanol" for premium? (Oh NO!!--looks like we have the beginnings of a gasoline debate thread).
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that in 2016, the 143.4 billion gallons of finished motor gasoline consumed in the United States contained about 14.4 billion gallons of fuel ethanol, or about 10% of the total volume of finished motor gasoline consumption.
Now, if that's correct almosty all the gasoline sold in the US must contain ethanol and there's no way a substantial amount of premium gas could be ethanol free or the average wouldn't be 10%. (Note that it's actually over 10% because a small amount of gasoline is E15.) I'm not suggesting there aren't exceptions. Of course there are. Also, I'm not an EPA fan but that doesn't make their statement wrong. If someone has another authoritative source, it would be good to see it.
BTW, here's a link to the EPA site:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=4
#6
L
lewb
There is E85 which is part of the 14 billion gallons, the reason its 85% is to keep people from filling up shine at less than 2 dollars a gallon.
L
lewb
I can be wrong on anything, including this but here's a quote from the EPA:
Now, if that's correct virtually all the gasoline sold in the US must contain ethanol and there's no way a substantial amount of premium gas could be ethanol free and the average would be 10%. (Note that it's actually over 10% because a small amount of gasoline is E15.) I'm not suggesting there aren't exceptions. Of course there are. Also, I'm not an EPA fan but that doesn't make their statement wrong. If someone has another authoritative source, it would be good to see it.
BTW, here's a link to the EPA site:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=4
There is E85 which is part of the 14 billion gallons, the reason its 85% is to keep people from filling up shine at less than 2 dollars a gallon.
#7
2smoked
2smoked
Just my 5 cents worth: I wish they would stop putting "corn" in our gas. I only see two benefits to it. 1) Ethanol producers are getting rich off of it. 2) At least in the bitter cold months around here, you no longer have to add it to your car's tank to prevent gas line freeze.
And don't get me started about it's "benefits" to the environment. That's all folks.
And don't get me started about it's "benefits" to the environment. That's all folks.
#8
javjacob
javjacob
Within a 30 mile radius of where I live there is only 3 stations that sell gas with no ethanol and all 3 are 91 premium. All the rest of the stations have ethanol added no matter what grade the fuel is.
#9
unclelee
unclelee
I live in Texas and never see ethenol free gas at the pump. However when I travel, I have seen 100% gas in some states like Oklahoma for example. It is usually more expensive. So I think ethenol free fuel is a regional thing.
I have to use Sta-Bil in all of my small equipment fuel or pay the price for premix at my local Home Depot or Lowe's. The problem there is they don't offer 32:1 or 16:1 mix ratio. And I am a stickler for factory recommended mix ratio no matter how good the manufacturer says their oil is. ( I couldn't help myself ??? )
I have to use Sta-Bil in all of my small equipment fuel or pay the price for premix at my local Home Depot or Lowe's. The problem there is they don't offer 32:1 or 16:1 mix ratio. And I am a stickler for factory recommended mix ratio no matter how good the manufacturer says their oil is. ( I couldn't help myself ??? )
#10
stevestd
stevestd
In Australia we are spoilt for fuel choices. I have tried 10% ethanol fuel in the distant past (with issues) and have only used 95 or 98 RON since (no ethanol or issues but much more expensive). The marine industry has many parallels with mowers and ethanol is not recommended here in boats. However, here is an old but interesting US boating article and links relating to ethanol fuels. http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp
#11
Teds
Teds
Keep in mind while fuel stabilizers or preservatives work to extend the "shelf life" of gasoline, they don't do anything to allow the use of ethanol fuels. One reason is because they absorb water, also they attack rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that the fuel mixture will run quite a bit leaner, all things being equal. This can be compensated for by adjustment of the "altitude" needle but lots of folks wouldn't know what it is much less how to adjust it. So LawnBoy has always cautioned against its use, in their service manual, as shown here:
"GASOLINE - Use automotive regular grade with a minimum of 89 pump octane, “No-Lead” or “lead free” gasoline of 86 pump octane is satisfactory if owner wishes to use it. DO NOT USE GASOHOL OR OTHER GASOLINES THAT CONTAIN ETHANOL OR METHANOL."
http://www.pure-gas.org
This website maintains a registry for all 50 states, of locations that offer gasoline without ethanol. This is where the fuel stabilizers come in handy. If it's inconvenient to obtain, purchase 5 or 10 gallons and treat. For most residential homeowners 5 gallons should get through a season of lawnmowing and maybe sno-blowing.
"GASOLINE - Use automotive regular grade with a minimum of 89 pump octane, “No-Lead” or “lead free” gasoline of 86 pump octane is satisfactory if owner wishes to use it. DO NOT USE GASOHOL OR OTHER GASOLINES THAT CONTAIN ETHANOL OR METHANOL."
http://www.pure-gas.org
This website maintains a registry for all 50 states, of locations that offer gasoline without ethanol. This is where the fuel stabilizers come in handy. If it's inconvenient to obtain, purchase 5 or 10 gallons and treat. For most residential homeowners 5 gallons should get through a season of lawnmowing and maybe sno-blowing.
#12
TonyPrin
Teds, I don't have a Lawn-Boy and am not really familiar with them. However, if Lawn-Boy recommends not using gasoline containing ethanol today they'd be the only company of it's kind to do so. Beyond that, they'd have difficulty being a national operation because ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas.
That's not to say your information wasn't correct at one time. I suspect, though, that your manual was printed over 15 years ago.
Here's information from Lawn-Boy's current FAQ:
TonyPrin
Keep in mind while fuel stabilizers or preservatives work to extend the "shelf life" of gasoline, they don't do anything to allow the use of ethanol fuels. One reason is because they absorb water, also they attack rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that the fuel mixture will run quite a bit leaner, all things being equal. This can be compensated for by adjustment of the "altitude" needle but lots of folks wouldn't know what it is much less how to adjust it. So LawnBoy has always cautioned against its use, in their service manual, as shown here:
"GASOLINE - Use automotive regular grade with a minimum of 89 pump octane, “No-Lead” or “lead free” gasoline of 86 pump octane is satisfactory if owner wishes to use it. DO NOT USE GASOHOL OR OTHER GASOLINES THAT CONTAIN ETHANOL OR METHANOL."
Teds, I don't have a Lawn-Boy and am not really familiar with them. However, if Lawn-Boy recommends not using gasoline containing ethanol today they'd be the only company of it's kind to do so. Beyond that, they'd have difficulty being a national operation because ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas.
That's not to say your information wasn't correct at one time. I suspect, though, that your manual was printed over 15 years ago.
Here's information from Lawn-Boy's current FAQ:
Fuel Brand:
We recommend that you use a national name brand to ensure that you are beginning with good quality fuel. Use fuel with octane rating of 87 or as close to 87 as you can. Higher octane fuels offer no benefit for our residential products and some high octane additive packages are not good for small engines. Only purchase what you expect to use within 30 days, or add stabilizer. If you add a fuel stabilizer the day you buy the gasoline you can expect the fuel to stay fresh for 4-6 months. Fuel stabilizer is available from most Lawn-Boy Authorized Service Dealers.
*
#13
cpurvis
I doubt that manufacturers care what gas we use in our small engines. They put the disclaimers in the manuals, such as only buying a few weeks supply at a time and running engines dry at the end of the season, knowing full well many, if not most, people will ignore them. None of that is necessary with ethanol-free gas.
An added benefit to the manufacturers is that they get to sell far more carburetors and carburetor parts than they did before ethanol.
cpurvis
Did you check the link in Teds post? Ethanol-free gas is available in all 50 states; not sure what you mean by 'many areas.' I have to drive three miles to get 87 octane ethanol-free and eight miles to get 91 octane ethanol-free. I don't consider that to be much of an inconvenience.Teds, I don't have a Lawn-Boy and am not really familiar with them. However, if Lawn-Boy recommends not using gasoline containing ethanol today they'd be the only company of it's kind to do so. Beyond that, they'd have difficulty being a national operation because ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas.
That's not to say your information wasn't correct at one time. I suspect, though, that your manual was printed over 15 years ago.
Here's information from Lawn-Boy's current FAQ:
I doubt that manufacturers care what gas we use in our small engines. They put the disclaimers in the manuals, such as only buying a few weeks supply at a time and running engines dry at the end of the season, knowing full well many, if not most, people will ignore them. None of that is necessary with ethanol-free gas.
An added benefit to the manufacturers is that they get to sell far more carburetors and carburetor parts than they did before ethanol.
#14
Teds
Teds
Pure gas is certainly available, just have to look for it. I live in Iowa, and it's not hard to find at all. It costs a few cents more, but no big deal in the amounts used.
The latest corporate-speak memo there talks about octane levels, but notable by its absence, doesn't address ethanol. To be clear, I'm more interested in 2 stroke engines, and vintage lawnmowers that are no longer being produced.
This is one of those areas that are all too common today, just because an issue is studiously ignored doesn't make it go away. Operator's Manuals long ago ditched content and useful info for pages and pages of CYA warnings and cautions.
Consequently in these matters I like to consult professionals, and the folks that repair equipment professionally. They do not like ethanol fuels for use in small engines. At all. Since the amounts used are relatively small for most of us it's not a big deal to set aside a few gallons of pure gasoline for lawn equipment and avoid the issue entirely.
The latest corporate-speak memo there talks about octane levels, but notable by its absence, doesn't address ethanol. To be clear, I'm more interested in 2 stroke engines, and vintage lawnmowers that are no longer being produced.
This is one of those areas that are all too common today, just because an issue is studiously ignored doesn't make it go away. Operator's Manuals long ago ditched content and useful info for pages and pages of CYA warnings and cautions.
Consequently in these matters I like to consult professionals, and the folks that repair equipment professionally. They do not like ethanol fuels for use in small engines. At all. Since the amounts used are relatively small for most of us it's not a big deal to set aside a few gallons of pure gasoline for lawn equipment and avoid the issue entirely.
#15
TonyPrin
cpurvis, I agree with part of what you're saying but local access to ethanol free gasoline can be an issue. Just because ethanol free gasoline is sold someplace in all 50 states doesn't really make it available. According to the pure-gas.org website, there's 220 locations for ethanol-free gasoline in Kansas - where you live - so I'd say it's readily available in your area. However, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey only have 221 locations combined - also from the website. In other words, 30% of the country's population have the same number of locations as Kansas. And several of those locations only sell ethanol-free gasoline in 1 gallon cans. To me, that means "ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas".
TonyPrin
Did you check the link in Teds post? Ethanol-free gas is available in all 50 states; not sure what you mean by 'many areas.' I have to drive three miles to get 87 octane ethanol-free and eight miles to get 91 octane ethanol-free. I don't consider that to be much of an inconvenience.
cpurvis, I agree with part of what you're saying but local access to ethanol free gasoline can be an issue. Just because ethanol free gasoline is sold someplace in all 50 states doesn't really make it available. According to the pure-gas.org website, there's 220 locations for ethanol-free gasoline in Kansas - where you live - so I'd say it's readily available in your area. However, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey only have 221 locations combined - also from the website. In other words, 30% of the country's population have the same number of locations as Kansas. And several of those locations only sell ethanol-free gasoline in 1 gallon cans. To me, that means "ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas".
#16
W
winston61
W
winston61
My own solution was to stop using automobile gas in my power equipment. I use the canned gas the power dealers sell. It's rated at 92 octane with no ethanol and mix with oil. I'm not in the business so I only mix a pint at time for my trimmers and use straight in my mower. Yes, it costs more, but I spent a lot of money( to me anyway) on my equipment and if I can prevent the trips and expense and down time by spending a few extra dollars, I'll do it. So for a few extra dollars I can that first pull start every time. I live in Texas and there ain't no non-corn gas except in cans.
#17
cpurvis
That's too bad for folks living those states. If they can't drive a little out of their way, I guess they're stuck with using ethanol gas and buying two weeks worth at a time, the cost of stabilizer, parts and their time if their carburetors clog up. They'd probably be better off hiring a lawn service.
cpurvis
cpurvis, I agree with part of what you're saying but local access to ethanol free gasoline can be an issue. Just because ethanol free gasoline is sold someplace in all 50 states doesn't really make it available. According to the pure-gas.org website, there's 220 locations for ethanol-free gasoline in Kansas - where you live - so I'd say it's readily available in your area. However, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey only have 221 locations combined - also from the website. In other words, 30% of the country's population have the same number of locations as Kansas. And several of those locations only sell ethanol-free gasoline in 1 gallon cans. To me, that means "ethanol free gasoline is not available at the pump in many areas".
That's too bad for folks living those states. If they can't drive a little out of their way, I guess they're stuck with using ethanol gas and buying two weeks worth at a time, the cost of stabilizer, parts and their time if their carburetors clog up. They'd probably be better off hiring a lawn service.
#18
J
jp1961
J
jp1961
Interesting. I've seen premixed gas for sale at places like Wal-Mart, but how fresh is it (I've heard gas looses an octane point for every month it sits)? I don't mind paying extra for alcohol free gas, nor driving a bit to find it at the pump.
Regards
Jeff
Regards
Jeff
#19
TonyPrin
Jeff, your point is correct in some regard but not others. The shelf life of gasoline can range from several months to years. However, there's no telling how long the gasoline was stored before processing as a premix, and then at Walmart before being sold to you.
Often the first problem relates to gasoline volatility - precisely the feature you want in gasoline. Some chemicals can separate and/or evaporate, leaving behind less volatile chemicals. And, of course, gasoline can oxidize - making it into a sour smelling, dark gummy muck that can damage your engine.
These issues generally relate to gasoline that's been improperly stored. When stored in sealed containers, gasoline should last for the top end of the shelf life, several years.
TonyPrin
Interesting. I've seen premixed gas for sale at places like Wal-Mart, but how fresh is it (I've heard gas looses an octane point for every month it sits)? I don't mind paying extra for alcohol free gas, nor driving a bit to find it at the pump.
Regards
Jeff
Jeff, your point is correct in some regard but not others. The shelf life of gasoline can range from several months to years. However, there's no telling how long the gasoline was stored before processing as a premix, and then at Walmart before being sold to you.
Often the first problem relates to gasoline volatility - precisely the feature you want in gasoline. Some chemicals can separate and/or evaporate, leaving behind less volatile chemicals. And, of course, gasoline can oxidize - making it into a sour smelling, dark gummy muck that can damage your engine.
These issues generally relate to gasoline that's been improperly stored. When stored in sealed containers, gasoline should last for the top end of the shelf life, several years.