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I am working on my Huskee (MTD) 148AR808K731 w/54" deck.
The steering is very sloppy.
I have replaced the tie rod ends,plastic bushings, steering shaft pinion bushing and the pinion.
Last season I replaced one of the bronze flange bushings that the steering gear rides on (the guide
bushing that rides in the arc shaped slot.)
I did not replace the front flange bushing in the steering gear.

I have also replaced the wheel bushings, but wobble still remains. Looks like time for new spindles.....

The steering gear, a more or less flat plate with teeth on the edge that the pinion gear meshes with is very wobbly/sloppy.
Is it this way by design?
There is a gap between the steering gear plate and the steering support bracket.
This permits considerable flop of the steering gear.
Is there any way to tighten this up?
A sheet of plastic between the steering gear and the support bracket?
If so, is it advisable?

The steering linkages are also sloppy on the plastic bushings.
Can these be tightened up?
They contact the plastic bushings at an angle. The linkage ends could be bent to be parallel with the steering gear
and a metal flange bushing installed, but would this be a problem when the front axle has to pivot with the terrain?
So, is it advisable??

Thanks in advance.

Ron,

I've found that you can add a piece of flat plastic of approximately .035 - .060 thickness between the top of the gear and the underside of the plate hold down will help with your sloppy steering. I've also found in one model and I can't remember the model of MTD made mower, I placed the plastic on the frame below the flat gear to raise the teeth into the shaft gear to engage them deeper. That also makes the gear move more easily against the plastic rather than metal to metal although you'll grease the two metals.

You can weld washers over the tie rod ends to tight them up. If you are an artist with a welder and grinder, you can make it look good and that will tighten your steering to the point of leaving the last slop in the spindles and front axles.

Another fix for the spindles and axle bushings is to take a good ole cold drink 2 liter bottle, cut a piece just long enough to make a inner bushing. I cut the two ends where they will meet at a 30 degree angle and then begin turning the wheel on the axle as you push the inner bushing in. It will get very tight, which is absolutely what you want. The plastic isn't going to wear out your axle or spindle and the slack will be totally gone. You can take all the slack out of the steering and it will also turn more freely making the use of one hand most of the time. As the inner bushings wears out over the years, the stiffness will begin coming back requiring two hands for sharp turns. That's the indicator that your trash cold drink bottles are needing replaced.

If you have a friend with a lathe, you can get a short piece of teflon rod and make the bushings and leave a one thousandth clearance. You can't do that with brass, however, teflon can actually function with zero clearance after you press it together. Not really conducive for most small shop operators or DYI repair folks. That's the reason I gave you the redneck method that works even with worn spindles and axles.

Have fun with it.

One of these days, I'm going to do a YouTube on the redneck repair. By the way, the bottle method I refer to is 4 years old in my 1996 Yard Man and still going strong. It could possibly make it another year before changing the inner bushings.

Good luck.

Thanks for all that great info!
A couple of questions:

Do you attach the plastic sheet to the support bracket or the gear (or,neither?)
Maybe just bore some holes where the flange bushings go to keep it in place?

When you mention raising the steering gear for deeper engagement with the pinion,
is that to say that the gap between the steering gear and the support bracket increases, which actually lowers the gear towards the ground?
That would require thicker plastic sheet and washers under the 2 guide bushings?

The washers for the tie rod ends I would think go on the ends with the plastic bushings...Correct?
Should the tie rods be bent to make the ends parallel to the steering gear?
(ed) After looking at them again, they are not that far out of parallel with the steering gear, if at all.

I think I need to use the pop bottle shim between the inner bushing and the wheel itself, as there is a bit of play there as well.

Thanks again!

Ron,

I'm attaching a couple of photos and I must first apologize for not showing the nylon shim I use. My neighbor walked in as I was preparing to take these photos. I already cleaned the grease from the gears and hold down plate, tearing apart the tool box looking for the nylon shims. He asked what I was doing, I told him and he laughed, said, you gave them to me middle of the mowing season last year. Oh well, you don't need them as you actually have a pattern for them sitting on your mower.

I'm posting the photos of the Steering Segment (flat gear) and the hold down plate along with a couple of diagrams. Bare in mind that mine may not be the exact same thing as yours, however, if yours has this type of set up, you can do this very easily. Just take your time and drill the holes tight enough to make it stay in place and not move around to allow grass, dust, dirt and grime in any more than necessary.

To hold down the geer and keep it from moving (flopping) around, place the nylon (plastic if that is all you can find) between the hold down plate and the gear segment. If your steering shaft gear is slightly angled from the mower frame, you can usually raise the gear segment a few thousandths to inset the teeth a bit deeper into the shaft gear. This will remove the slack from your steering at that point. It will also reflect in the overall however will not remove the slack in all your other moving joints.

You will notice the very normal wear on the items in the photos. Excellent wear pattern, none of the wear is into the metal measurable other than the parkerized finish of the metal. It had the MTD floppy gear syndrome. The unit it came off of needed every point tightened up and the mower had very little use at that point. Took out over 3/4 turn of the wheel to 11:30 to 12:30 on the wheel with all the slack adjustments. I mentioned in my first reply. The new bushings did nothing to remove any of the steering slack, thus, the ole Redneck Machining method was called for.

If you have further questions, feel free to give me a shout.

Max

Thanks.
Mine is a bit different.
The gear is pretty much flat and somewhat v-shaped on2 sides and arced where the teeth are.(Like a slice of pie.)
No retainer plate, just 2 flange bushings thru the pivot hole and the arc shaped groove like yours.

I'm attempting to attach the schematic, but don't know if it will work.

Thank you again!

Here is the gear itself.
It is #14 on the schematic
Tie rods attach over the studs.

That still seems pretty straight forward. Just fashion something to press the gear segment upward against your mower frame to hold it flat so that it doesn't move up and down. Each time it moves up and down when it is turned by the pinion gear (shaft gear), the two gears are unaligned and there is extra clearance between the teeth.

mhavanti said:

That still seems pretty straight forward. Just fashion something to press the gear segment upward against your mower frame to hold it flat so that it doesn't move up and down. Each time it moves up and down when it is turned by the pinion gear (shaft gear), the two gears are unaligned and there is extra clearance between the teeth.

Click to expand...

Actually, If I want to minimize the play between steering gear and pinion, I need to move the steering gear downward.
The steering wheel shaft slants toward the steering gear, so I need to move the steering gear down.
Moving the pinion up will have no effect on clearance, as it will just travel along the axis of the shaft.
I have ordered some Delrin sheets and some 3/8" shims, as I will need to shim the guide bushings in order to lower the gear.

We'll see how it all works out.

Now, I guess I need to buy a 2-liter bottle of something...........

Thanks again.

That would be correct, moving it upward would be very difficult in your particular application since it is opposite of mine. lol. You can move your gear segment or what I prefer to call the ring gear lower as far as the slack in the built in washer on your bolt.

mhavanti said:

That would be correct, moving it upward would be very difficult in your particular application since it is opposite of mine. lol. You can move your gear segment or what I prefer to call the ring gear lower as far as the slack in the built in washer on your bolt.

Click to expand...

I will be shimming under (over) the flanged guide bushings to drop the gear and tighten the steering.
I'll be adding a sheet of Delrin to remove the wobble........
Then work on the tie rods.

Right now I have removed the engine to gain access to the bolts and nuts that hold the steering gear in place, and to replace the main drive belt...
What a pain !

Delrin is an excellent choice. I keep the threshold savers from new door units. Its very hard, has a great lubricity and wear factor.

I wouldn't have thought you should have to remove the engine to get to everything you need to. But then, it may be easier and faster. Just take your time and think it thru, you'll overcome.

Ron,

The steering in my MTD Yardman was much the same as you have described. It seemed to have been designed that way. The only major effort I made was to make a steel bushing that fit over the pin on the steering gear arch, that the steering rod end would still slip (tightly) over. That improved things, but as you and mhavanti have discussed, all of the steering components fit together very loosely. I have considered building up the ends of the remaining tie rods with weld and then hand shaping them to improve their fit, but I got involved with rebuilding the transaxle and stopped worrying about it. I can steer it and the bushing I made improved things enough to satisfy me. I will be interested in reading about how the improvements you've made work out.

Roger B

mhavanti said:

Delrin is an excellent choice. I keep the threshold savers from new door units. Its very hard, has a great lubricity and wear factor.

I wouldn't have thought you should have to remove the engine to get to everything you need to. But then, it may be easier and faster. Just take your time and think it thru, you'll overcome.

Click to expand...

The bolt for the bushing in the arc-shaped slot is way back from the edge of the support plate, which is mounted closely under the mower frame.
This makes things virtually impossible to access with a wrench (maybe a specially bent wrench) due to angles and interference with the engine.
And, in order to repalce the main drive belt, the engine pulley has to drop down so that the belt can clear the keepers. Even though I used never-seize
when I replaced that pulley the first time,it still won't budge. Hence another reason to pull the engine, which really isn't that bad of a task.
Thanks again..........

Roger B said:

Ron,

The steering in my MTD Yardman was much the same as you have described. It seemed to have been designed that way. The only major effort I made was to make a steel bushing that fit over the pin on the steering gear arch, that the steering rod end would still slip (tightly) over. That improved things, but as you and mhavanti have discussed, all of the steering components fit together very loosely. I have considered building up the ends of the remaining tie rods with weld and then hand shaping them to improve their fit, but I got involved with rebuilding the transaxle and stopped worrying about it. I can steer it and the bushing I made improved things enough to satisfy me. I will be interested in reading about how the improvements you've made work out.

Roger B

Click to expand...

I can't help but think that some slop was intended.
However, sometimes the critter just won't turn as sharply as I think it should.
I have found that a tad of toe-in helps the turning radius, but things have become so sloppy that action is required.
And, sometimes when the steering is turned to right or left lock, one wheel will flop into a right angle position
and the whole shebang comes to a halt. Very disturbing.
I may get some bushings for the rod ends to do as you did, then capture them with larger washers over and under.
That's probably gonna be another McMaster Carr order...........
Thanks for your comments, and I will advise the ultimate outcome.

Thanks for your comments!

Roger and Ronno,

Would it be alright to reply to both of your last comments and use this so as to cover both with one reply? I'll just call you two Rog-O and that should get you both! lol

Roger, the steel shim can cause extreme wear to your gear segment, that is why I recommend the plastic below the gear segment to raise it to the top of your bolt built in washer shoulder and provides a friction relief between the frame and the gear segment keeping the gear segment flat precluding the rocking motion. The gears are required to have some clearance but not as much as the stamped gear comes with. You could cut the frame loose in that area of the raised section on your frame if it is the gears above the frame, move the piece toward the pinion gear on the shaft and weld the frame back up and that would solve a great deal of movement between the two teeth. You would also have to consider the piece would have to be flat during welding and the weld ground smooth afterward. I've done it, but, it isn't a lot of fun.

Ronno,

On the toe in, you should toe outward to help your steering. Plus, to gain a tighter turning radius for both directions, toe out gives you a greater Ackerman in the steering right and left. It will also make your mower track more accurately. Back to the Ackerman. Ackerman is: Turn your wheel to lock in one direction, the inside tire should now have a tighter turn than the outer tire. You want this because the inner tire is traveling a shorter distance than the outer tire. This will gain better fuel mileage and less wear and tear on your engine and tires. Plus, you can run it wide open and not have the mower wander all over the yard or pavement. ( as though you were going a hundred miles and hour )

Now, Rog-O

For the tie rod tightening. Take a 1/4 inch flat washer, put it into a vise, cut one side until you twist it just enough to slide it over your tie rod ball shaft. Now, twist it back until it is surrounding the shaft over the ball equally, bend it down over the outside of the tie rod housing if you can. Weld it to the outside of the tie rod housing and now your tie rod will not have any slack in it and most of your slop will be gone.

Here is a youtube on how to do it: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/showt...-Slop-Out-of-MTD-Steering?p=253452#post253452

I understand the principles involved in inner/outer paths when traversing a curve.
In most instances I believe this is addressed in the design and geometry of the steering system.

I have found that having a bit of tow-out seems to be really detrimental to turning radius.
I have observed the tracks taken by the front tires when steering a tight turn, and the outer tire
seems to be the one controlling the turn.This causes the inside to drag and not grip, a bit like
what the NASCAR drivers would describe as "push."
Maybe I'm not actually inducing a tow-in, just less tow-out. Dunno.
However, as sloppy as the steering has been, it is difficult to actually determine
what actually is happening.
I certainly hope that I can achieve a better grasp on the situation once this exercise is completed.

Now we're talking. I've been designing, building and racing cars, motorcycles, trucks (including diesel rigs at Indianapolis), bar stools, Go Karts, lawnmowers, RC cars, you name it, I've built and raced it also including my race guns. More rounds per trigger pull the more fun they are. lol.

If you go to any front end alignment shop, you'll find that a street vehicle will wander with straight ahead (zero toe), it will drive terribly wander, dip the tires and push if toe'd in. I do remember a couple of old timers (Chevrolet Dealership) that tried to align my Vette's back in the late 60's and early 70's with toe-in. I couldn't hold them in the road and especially when in a grooved or highway with two percent slant to either side. Any difference in air pressures from one side to the other would take the wheel out of your hands and at the speeds I drove them, not acceptable.

My own father finally took me into his shop, had his front end man set me down and tell me to go get the car, put it on the rack, he is going to teach me how to align my asphalt car as well as the daily driver.

Now, toe in causes many unacceptable factors I've mentioned above, however, to make a vehicle track the very best, you toe in the rear tires about an 1/8th to a 1/4 degree and toe out the front about 1 to 1/2 degree. This doesn't cause push, under steer and there are hundreds of other names we can all it.

Push is usually caused by several factors depending upon the surface of the track, the type of material of the track and actually the set up of the vehicle. Too much wedge in the spring weights is usually the biggest cause. Too stiff front left spring and too light right rear spring. Pan hard bar can be too high below center of the rear axle center line and that will cause over steer and push is going to rear its head. Over inflated rear tires, under inflated front tires or a combination of the two. However, we've only touched on one one thousandth of scenarios that can cause push. Ackerman is a desired factor for both street and has to have it on short tracks in particular.

Toe out if set up for your particular vehicle does not cause noticeable fuel consumption as it is necessary to maintain control over high speed, heavier vehicles in particular. A lawnmower doesn't fall into this category, but, any fuel savings and steering ease is worth it to me.

On my all wheel steer Yardman I have approximately 2 1/2 degrees toe out on each front tire and it drives the guys nuts when they see it. I tell them to take it to their house, jump on and give it a ride and see how it holds the hillside at their place, then tell me it doesn't work. Worst part about that is, then they want me to set up theirs. lol.

Give it a try. I have the hood off mine right now. I will take a shot for you sometime today and give you an idea how much I'm running. Remember, the tires on my mower are the same age as the mower. 1996 and it has never seen anything less than WOT so it runs wide open all the time.

Had you told me that you worked for Andy and Vince on the #40 turbocar and its successors, I would consider you a lesser god..........

I will try the steering setup you recommend once I get things under control (and a motor back in..)

I am at a loss as to how to set toe in on the rear,tho.........

As for race guns, my son in law owns a MG42...........
I have a Mini-14 for which there is available a trigger which fires 1 shot when squeezed, and a 2nd shot when the trigger is released.....

BTW, a cursory search has turned up nothing as to the wall thickness of a 2 liter pop bottle.
Do you know the material thickness of the plastic?
Thanks

Well, here's a rather disturbing update.
I knew I had an extra cadaver front axle laying around, so I went searching.
I found that it was not only an axle, but had rod ends,linkages and a dirty but good rack gear.
Playing with it taught me the following:
1.When installed with new bushings the rack gear demonstrated almost NO slop/play. Maybe .010" wobble end to end.
2.There may be no slop between rack and pinion when I receive the new hex-piloted steering shaft bushing.
I believe all present pinion to rack play is due to that bushing being worn...
3.Steering linkage play is greatly reduced, probably due to reduced rack gear slop.
I will have to see how much play remains when I install new plastic bushings on these joints.
4.There is NO room to install the plastic shim/wear plate I was going to fashion from Delrin. Oh,Well....
5.The ends of the rack gear where the linkages attach are not on the same plane with the center of the gear.
I may make some wear shims for those ends, but I may need thinner Delrin.

So, once the new steering shaft bushing is installed, I would not be surprised if things weren't 'bout as good as new.

Then I gotta tighten up those wheels...........

Since you know the name Granatelli, I'll tell you about one of my cars. It is an Avanti. He took a 289 Cu. In. supercharged Avanti to Bonneville Salt Flats, purely stock from the assembly line other than a few moderations to meet the official's safety requirements. Set a record that still stands today for that class, cu. in., wheelbase, weight, etc.

One hundred seventy-six mph out of the box. The Corvette didn't run that top end with a 327 inch, no top, a tonneau cover and I'd met ole Andy while he was President of STP on several occassions. We were one of his STP distributors. He and my father were a couple of cussin' BS'ers that laughed a lot and both did so many things in their lives. Both were my heroes with the except of that damned Turbo car. We're talking sacrilege. lol

There is a pic of the old Avanti and I thru in a pic of one of my stable of race cars. This one is sitting in Ocala, FL. in the Don Garlits Drag Racing Museum. You'll see my name on the advertising placard.

Ron,

You could use a water bottle, soda bottle, milk carton, pretty much anything that is about .010-.015 thick. It isn't easy to get it in without testing your faith in the Lord, but, it is doable and you'll be most pleased.

By the way, for the most part, almost all the pinion gears I've replaced, you can turn them 180 degrees and reinstall them and the segment gears then contact in a new area on the pinion gear.

I once had a MG42, a MP38 and MP40, 1921AC, 1928AC, M1a1 Thompsons and many others. But then, I was a dealer and when I retired from all my businesses, the new law passed in 1986 that caused me to tell NRA to lose my name. They endorsed that law and now a race gun can NOT be inherited any longer. You can NOT leave one to a relative or anyone else as it is seen as stray purchasing. With that said, I sold them off to another dealer and his transfer papers come in on 09-11-2001. I handed them over along with his papers before the buildings were hit in NYC and DC. They values increased within fifteen minutes of delivering them, shaking hands and picking up his check. Plus, the folks that attacked us ruined my birthday.

Ron,

I tried to get the photos for you in a tight area without a wide angle lens handy. I also grabbed a photo of the door handles I put on each side on the rear fenders for cutting along the side of a slope. They are handy for many things.

You should be able to see the toe out.

Forgive not cleaning off the saw dust before I took the photos. I'm building upper cabinets in the Garaj Mahal and saw dust is everywhere!

Max

Ron,

Sorry, but the conversation on this subject (steering slop) - (in a machine that as far as I can tell has slop built into it) has become far too technical for yours truly. If I can't fix it by beating the crap out of it with a ballpein hammer, then it has surpassed my level of expertise.

I bow out..

Roger

Roger B said:

Ron,

Sorry, but the conversation on this subject (steering slop) - (in a machine that as far as I can tell has slop built into it) has become far too technical for yours truly. If I can't fix it by beating the crap out of it with a ballpein hammer, then it has surpassed my level of expertise.

I bow out..

Roger

Click to expand...

I know we've strayed off topic some...........
As for the built in slop, some yes, some no.
I have found that a less used rack gear has far less slop than my well worn item.
There is a bit of slop between pinion and rack gears, as well as in the toe rod linkages
which attach to the rack gear using plastic, somewhat semi-spherical bushings that wear out quickly.
I am going to attempt to reduce the clearance between gears by shimming the rack gear downward,
causing the teeth to mesh more completely.
As for the tie rods, either metal bushings (as you have done) or maybe Heim joints..dunno at this time.
Thanks for your participation, and chime in if anything comes to mind,,,

Anyway, stay tuned!

Roger,

Hang on there buddy! There are places we haven't even ventured that may allow for an 8 ounce ballpein, perhaps even a 12 ounce and if difficulty persists, I'm saying drag out the 2 pound superduty, XL, SuperTorque Ballpein.

You could elongate the gears by beating them from the base of the gear to the tips, then reform them with a file or a grinder. Sucksex of such a venture would have a probability of less than you'd desire, but, it could be done. So, there is still hope a ballpein comes into this before we have your slack redacted.

I will say that I DO like "Sucksex", (at least what I can remember of it at my present age) and heating and beating metal is always a good way to work out frustrations.. (Which probably comes from a lack of sucksex... ) Jus sayin'

Roger

Being sucksexful means you've not been redacted I can only presume if I'm not allowed to assume.

I have stayed out of this one because while being of amusment interest you are basically trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
The pivot point of the front steering beam is so sloppy, making the angular movements of the wheel axels is somewhat self defeating exercise.
These mowers are made to a price Joe Public is willing to pay = CHEAP.
If you want precise steering then buy a better mower, like any of the models with a cast iron front steering beam with a grease point & bearing and adjustable front & back bearing plates for the steering beam.
That knocks out all of the domestic mowers.
Next you need one with both a right & left drag link fitted with proper tie rod ends at both ends and a joining rod ,again with real tie rod ends.
The lower bush on the steering gear needs to be adjustable to get proper meshing of the fan gear & the steering pinion and the fan gear needs to be double the thickness that it currently is.
The axel pivots need to run in a proper bush in a steel sleeve welded into the steering beam ( if you continue to use the original MTD item ) to properly support it at both ends.
Tapered rollers would of course be better again but that will add nearly $ 200 to the purchase price.

Yup. I understand your premise.
But, it is my sow's ear, and the more silk purse-like I can make it, the better.
My mower does have a cast iron crossbeam w/grease zerks.
No play in the spindle,crossbeam area.

I have already found that a new fan gear has considerably less slop than the old one.
That will help quite a bit.
Dropping the fan gear down a few thousandths will tale the excess clearance out of the fan gear to pinion interface.
But, the pinion meets the teeth of the fan gear at an angle.
That can't be to great for longevity, though this mower is 13 years old.

Alleviating the wheel to spindle slop will also help.

Looks like the remaining culprits will be the steering linkages.
Weakest spot is the plastic bushings where the linkages connect to the fan gear.
What I need is a lathe and a rod of teflon, but I own neither.
I may not be able to achieve much there. Dunno.....

Anyway, sit back and be amused.
I hopefully will provide some good,cheap entertainment.
I'm retired and its winter time; what else do I have to do???
G'day..........

Trevor,

I've been waiting for you to jump in. Considering this is an age old question that has been asked in this forum since at least '10 and you hadn't waded in and given the official method of purchase and replace parts along with part numbers. I thought it appropriate to give these old Southern Rednecks a few work-arounds they can do at home with materials they can find laying around with little to no expense after they've purchased their new parts and it doesn't "cure" their original problem. Sloppy MTD steering.

As you said earlier, buy and replace will not remove the "slop" as it is a stamped unit overall. However, all things can be improved and it doesn't always require a machine shop to accomplish the desired outcome.

Sometimes these old mowers are more of an old family member than anything else.

Thanks for jumping in and hope you were entertained. Its always a pleasure hearing you give straight advice. Oh, you left Roger out though, he needs to swing his ball pein at something. lol

Sorry if I an dredging up a much beaten topic.
I had done a cursory search prior to my initial post and didn't see anything that appeared to be pertinent.
It's not like I'm asking for the best bicycle chain lube.........

Maybe I should have dug deeper??

Nah, it ain't no thang!

If you want to read some of the other folks replies, I will give you the link to a 2010 question. Some of it is more entertaining than myself. lol

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/showt...r-of-steering-linkage-MTD-14-5-HP-42-quot-cut

Max

mhavanti said:

Trevor,

I've been waiting for you to jump in. Considering this is an age old question that has been asked in this forum since at least '10 and you hadn't waded in and given the official method of purchase and replace parts along with part numbers. I thought it appropriate to give these old Southern Rednecks a few work-arounds they can do at home with materials they can find laying around with little to no expense after they've purchased their new parts and it doesn't "cure" their original problem. Sloppy MTD steering.

As you said earlier, buy and replace will not remove the "slop" as it is a stamped unit overall. However, all things can be improved and it doesn't always require a machine shop to accomplish the desired outcome.

Sometimes these old mowers are more of an old family member than anything else.

Thanks for jumping in and hope you were entertained. Its always a pleasure hearing you give straight advice. Oh, you left Roger out though, he needs to swing his ball pein at something. lol

Click to expand...

Well there is really nothing you can do without hand made modifications and bespoke mower repairs is not what I do.
The lower bush on the steering rod can be replaced with a std metal bush if the shaft is not too chewed through.
Then you have to find something for the top where the shaft passes through the turret.
So now you have the shaft running true you need to look at the fan gear, a thoroughly bad idea.
Followed by getting the play out of the gears you then need to look at all of the linkages & tie rod ends so it is a very big job that no one would ever pay for.
I have trouble getting people to pat for a replacement bush till they no longer come into contact and the mower will only steer to the right.

mhavanti said:

Nah, it ain't no thang!

If you want to read some of the other folks replies, I will give you the link to a 2010 question. Some of it is more entertaining than myself. lol

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/showt...r-of-steering-linkage-MTD-14-5-HP-42-quot-cut

Max

Click to expand...

Yup. I had already seen that one, but it pertains pretty exclusively to the ball joint rod end failure.

Thanks!

I gotta go along with Bert "The Mobile One", I don't think the steering in these El Cheapo tractorcators is made to anything that would approximate what a machinist might consider "Specifications".. (Well, unless he was dealing with quarter-inches instead of thousands.)

Even if old components are replaced with new, being as they are made from the mildest of mild steel a few years of regular usage will result in sloppy steering all over again... Why waste the time and $$$???

Trev, You momentarily knocked me back with "Bespoke"!! But then it's more of a British term than an American... Again, you never cease to impress,,, (but then I'm just an impressible lad..)

Roger B

I know this thing is not a John Deere or Mahindra or Kubota or even a Gravely........
But, for my needs it works jut fine.
I'm sure that I will never achieve perfection in steering.
But........
There is a rather significant difference between the steering as it was when new,
and what it had degraded to over the years.
Replacing a few relatively inexpensive components will restore it to a great extent,
and a few lo-tech mods should even improve on that.
So, where's the harm??

Ronno6 said:

So, where's the harm??

Click to expand...

El-Ron-O,

There is 'no harm' my friend and if the project makes you happy, that's what working on these little beasties is all about.. (Assuming you aren't like Bert-Man and trying to eke-out a living repairing them for others.) My methods are just designed to be less expensive (that's what makes ME happy) and more time consuming, keeping me involved longer and less likely to be out on the streets bothering others...

No doubt you'll have that tractor steering as tight as a race car by the time you're done and you'll be able to spin the steering wheel from lock-to-lock with the touch of a finger...

Carry on...

Roger B

Roger B said:

El-Ron-O,

There is 'no harm' my friend and if the project makes you happy, that's what working on these little beasties is all about.. (Assuming you aren't like Bert-Man and trying to eke-out a living repairing them for others.) My methods are just designed to be less expensive (that's what makes ME happy) and more time consuming, keeping me involved longer and less likely to be out on the streets bothering others...

No doubt you'll have that tractor steering as tight as a race car by the time you're done and you'll be able to spin the steering wheel from lock-to-lock with the touch of a finger...

Carry on...

Roger B

Click to expand...

Thanks.Roger B. I embrace your philosophy!
Though I have done many a "courtesy" repair, mostly for lil ole Ladies in distress, I have never attempted to make a living at it, nor do I want to take the bread off the tables lf those who do....... I can never allow myself to charge what the job should cost.
I mostly work on racing bicycles. I ride some,too.

Here's the latest:
I installed the new fan gear and pinion. The fit had very little slop in the meshing of the two, but the fan gear still exhibited a tad of wobble side to side.
I took about .005 off the thickness of the pilot portion of the flanged pivot and guide bushings, drawing the fan gear pretty snugly against the support bracket. That virtually eliminated the play there.
Slathered on the grease and put her together.
New plastic bushings at the gear end of the tie rods, and,now there is as little play in the system as possible.
The most play I notice is a rocking of the cast iron cross bar. I may have to shim that up a bit, but I'll wait and see.
No biggie there as that does not affect the slop in the wheel steering....that is, the wheels will not flop around due to crossbar slop.

I am awaiting arrival of a couple new parts, then I'll get everything reassembled and see how she steers.

Crank in some toe out, center my steering wheel, and we'll hit the grass.

I do need to clean out the carb,tho. It always has been a hard-starter, even when hot.
I have not gone thru the carb since the ethanol days back in Florida.
Straight gasoline here in Southern Mississippi! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Ronno6 said:

Straight gasoline here in Southern Mississippi! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Click to expand...

Ron,,

Are you saying that all gas sold in MISS is ethanol free? What does it cost/gal?

Ethanol free gas is available here in FL, especially anywhere near the coast where boating is prevalent, but it costs around $.50/gal more than the cheapest 10% ethanol treated gasoline.

Roger

Roger B said:

Ron,,

Are you saying that all gas sold in MISS is ethanol free? What does it cost/gal?

Ethanol free gas is available here in FL, especially anywhere near the coast where boating is prevalent, but it costs around $.50/gal more than the cheapest 10% ethanol treated gasoline.

Roger

Click to expand...

Nope. However, non-ethanol gas is readily available.
There are 4 or more stations within a 10 mile radius that offer non ethanol gas.
Current price is about $2.30/gal, while the ethanol gas is $2.08 or so.
One of the perks of living in an oil-producing State!

The closest station that carried N/E gas back in Fla to where I lived was 22 miles, and the ethanol-free gas was typically $1.00/gl MORE that the ethanol gas.

I should have looked here before I posted, newbie mistake.

My new to me, 1990 White AWS has an issue with the steering gear "jumping" teeth.
I have looked at it, cleaned it, realigned it, but it still jumps, it is sloppy like is described above.

I will have to follow some of the posts and attempt to "tighten" things up.
My gear set up looks the same as in the first images in this thread.

Robin

Below is what I posted in the other thread:

I have just become the owner of a 1990 White 4WS Ride on.
It needed some work done on it as it appeared to have been unloved by its previous owner.
So far I have replaced tyres, recovered the seat and repainted the bonnet.
And oil change, new mandrill for the cutting deck, new bearing in the other mandrill, and have on hand new rear universals, the old ones have no needles in them.
I will replace them over winter.

I have an issue with the gears where they mesh underneath the steering box.
It keeps jumping teeth, the gears and sprockets do not appear to be worn, but maybe they are.

I am sure others will have had this issue.
Any pointers wellcome

Robin Williams said:

I should have looked here before I posted, newbie mistake.

My new to me, 1990 White AWS has an issue with the steering gear "jumping" teeth.
I have looked at it, cleaned it, realigned it, but it still jumps, it is sloppy like is described above.

I will have to follow some of the posts and attempt to "tighten" things up.
My gear set up looks the same as in the first images in this thread.

Robin

Below is what I posted in the other thread:

I have just become the owner of a 1990 White 4WS Ride on.
It needed some work done on it as it appeared to have been unloved by its previous owner.
So far I have replaced tyres, recovered the seat and repainted the bonnet.
And oil change, new mandrill for the cutting deck, new bearing in the other mandrill, and have on hand new rear universals, the old ones have no needles in them.
I will replace them over winter.

I have an issue with the gears where they mesh underneath the steering box.
It keeps jumping teeth, the gears and sprockets do not appear to be worn, but maybe they are.

I am sure others will have had this issue.
Any pointers wellcome

Click to expand...

Chances are good that the steering shaft bushing is worn out.
This sits above the pinion gear, on the top side of the steering support bracket.
It has a hex-shaped pilot that indexes into the steering support bracket.
That bushing gets worn and will not keep the pinion in constant contact with the fan gear, allowing teeth to jump as you describe.

This is all supposition on my part....a model # would help.
See the diagram I posted in post #5 to see if it resembles your mower.
The bushing I refer to is #21.

Cheers!

Ronno6 said:

Chances are good that the steering shaft bushing is worn out.
This sits above the pinion gear, on the top side of the steering support bracket.
It has a hex-shaped pilot that indexes into the steering support bracket.
That bushing gets worn and will not keep the pinion in constant contact with the fan gear, allowing teeth to jump as you describe.

This is all supposition on my part....a model # would help.

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Thank you, I think the bushing is a little different on my Ride On.

When I take the steering box away from the sprocket, there is the gear that meshes with the sprocket.
It has a bushing that has very fine splines on both ends.
One end fits up into the steering box, and the other end slides down on to the gear that meshes with the sprocket.

It does appear that the sprocket is a little floppy moving up and down.
As this was my first look into the mechanism I only cleaned it, I have not removed the sprockets to inspect them closely.

Lot/Model MFG-Date
130-786G190/F220B4

Robin Williams said:

Thank you, I think the bushing is a little different on my Ride On.

When I take the steering box away from the sprocket, there is the gear that meshes with the sprocket.
It has a bushing that has very fine splines on both ends.
One end fits up into the steering box, and the other end slides down on to the gear that meshes with the sprocket.

It does appear that the sprocket is a little floppy moving up and down.
As this was my first look into the mechanism I only cleaned it, I have not removed the sprockets to inspect them closely.

Click to expand...

How about a model # ?

Ronno6 said:

How about a model # ?

Click to expand...

See above, maybe edited it in after you posted.
Taken of the plate/sticker on the back of the machine.
Lot/Model MFG - Date
130-786G190 F220B4

And yes, the diagrams in Post 5 look just like my machine.
I think we are talking about different bushings, the one I was refering to is 74.
I am still looking for 21

Robin,

Here is the diagram for your mower. It is the same mower as mine. Mine is labeled as a YardMan AWS and is a 1996. As an aside, my 96 deck had the same mandrel as a '98 and I purchased it in March of '96. My manual doesn't show the correct spindle and mandrel thus it was fun getting them a couple of weeks ago.

Now, here is your diagram: http://www.partstree.com/parts/whit...-lawn-tractor-42-deck-1990/steering-assembly/

You will have a plastic bushing below your steering gear: 941-0225 (replaces 741-0225)
You will have a gear sitting at the bottom of the steering shaft: 717-1700 Pinion Shaft

Start there and replace them first. By then, Ron should now be able to walk you thru the next steps. You learn by teaching.

Max

Ya beat me to it, Max.
Same advice I would have given,except maybe to have YOU walk him thru it!! (Ha ha)

That is a different setup from mine indeed.
But the hex nosed bushing is still probably the worst culprit.

Good luck!

If you noticed, his ole "White AWS" is assbackards to my YMAWS. Mine is on the right, his on the left. Other than that, same dance. He should be able to flip his steering shaft gear one time to access new area on it's teeth. He'll definitely need the bushing that sits on top of the deck that the shaft rotates thru. I'd also say replace the bushing behind the dash as that also keeps the bottom bushing from premature wear. I know, ya'll thought I was going to say something else.

You guys are champions.

Thank you so much.
I will study carefully, remove the steering assembly again and check for the worn parts and replace as necessary, and as per your comments.

Overhere, NZ, I was told all parts are now obsolete, which I found is not true, I found the rear axle universal shafts through Shanks in the US.

And I found the Hex nut you are talking about in the diagram.
But if I read the diagram properly the gear you mention is not available, but we shall see.
First I need to remove it and see what it looks like.

And I guess the hex nosed bushing can be sleeved if I can not immediately find the part over here.

mhavanti said:

If you noticed, his ole "White AWS" is assbackards to my YMAWS. Mine is on the right, his on the left. Other than that, same dance. He should be able to flip his steering shaft gear one time to access new area on it's teeth. He'll definitely need the bushing that sits on top of the deck that the shaft rotates thru. I'd also say replace the bushing behind the dash as that also keeps the bottom bushing from premature wear. I know, ya'll thought I was going to say something else.

Click to expand...

You understand the coriolis effect, no??

Ronno6 said:

You understand the coriolis effect, no??

Click to expand...

No I don't but right and left, all the same to me when I am sitting in the middle,
bit like my racing car!

Except the gear lever is on the right/wrong side!

Robin,

Start here:

http://www.ereplacementparts.com/mtd-13a2606g190-2003-mower-parts-c-20039_20100_133228_240993.html. I see your bushing on the very first page.

Also, you should be able to flip your gear 180 degrees to the area that isn't worn and get new life out of the gear.

G'day mate!

mhavanti said:

Robin,

Start here:

http://www.ereplacementparts.com/mtd-13a2606g190-2003-mower-parts-c-20039_20100_133228_240993.html. I see your bushing on the very first page.

Also, you should be able to flip your gear 180 degrees to the area that isn't worn and get new life out of the gear.

G'day mate!

Click to expand...

Haha, I am from NZ, not Australia!

The bushing you refer to is on the right,labeled 360, correct?


Robin

Dunno about a #360.
I was thinking more like these:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...TRC0.H0.X941-0225.TRS0&_nkw=941-0225&_sacat=0

Yes Sir, it is priced at $3.19 US. Oh by the way, you can't help being in NZ. Its ok. Could be worse, you could be in Australia. Oh crap, wait, that ain't right. You can still get Utes in Australia and NZ. Y'all got it better than we do up here.

If you can find the bushing in the bronze gear, go for it over the plastic. If you check in ebay, you usually can find the gear and bushing kit around 7 to 10 bucks US.

mhavanti said:

Yes Sir, it is priced at $3.19 US. Oh by the way, you can't help being in NZ. Its ok. Could be worse, you could be in Australia. Oh crap, wait, that ain't right. You can still get Utes in Australia and NZ. Y'all got it better than we do up here.

If you can find the bushing in the bronze gear, go for it over the plastic. If you check in ebay, you usually can find the gear and bushing kit around 7 to 10 bucks US.

Click to expand...

haha, yes we do, even Ute racing over here too! And in Australia!
We copied it off them!

Yes, I figured it when I re read some stuff,
those bushings exactly.
If we have any plastic ones here I will get one of them,
then source a bronze one.

Now that I have tracked down the problem I am keen to get it sorted,
and working like it would have when it was new.

Again many thanks to you dedicated forumites!

You're very welcome. Take lots of pics and post them as you go. That always helps others more than words for some.

I'd enjoy trying the right hand turn circle racing downunda. Take good care my new friend.

Max

mhavanti said:

You're very welcome. Take lots of pics and post them as you go. That always helps others more than words for some.

I'd enjoy trying the right hand turn circle racing downunda. Take good care my new friend.

Max

Click to expand...

Check out Teretonga Park, near Invercargill, mostly left handers, especially the amazing loop, bit like your Ovals!
No not really.

In a few hours online you guys have helped me sort an issue some said were "unsortable" and wanted to sell me a new machine.
But I don't want a new one, I want an old one going as good as new!

Thank you so much for the link.
Will check my local supplier Monday, see if they have any, if not will order off one of those suppliers.
A bronze one and 4 plastic ones for the king pins.

Robin,

I'm looking Teretonga Park, near Invercargill, on Google Earth as I write this. Thanks.

While you're at it, get the 4 bushings for the front wheels as well. They require a grease zerk in at least two of them. If I remember correctly, my Yardboy, ummmm, YardMan would only accept two as the zerk bushing was longer than the non-greasable bushing. Yours may be different since it is a '90 year model and MTD cut lots of corners by '96 and even more by now.

The reason I'm speaking to the wheel bushings is that there is inherit slop in your wheels contributing to the allowable amount of play in the steering wheel and all the slack from wheels, king pins, tie rods (4 of them), flat gear, pinion gear, steering shaft behind the dash. All that becomes aggregate................Thus, Clown Car Deluxe and that is not desirable to me. Probably not you.

Have fun with it.

Max

Robin,

The Cabbage Tree Restaurant and Outpost looks very nice. Teretonga Park, near Invercargill is sweet! Dirt Oval next to the Paved Road Coarse, near the MotoCross, near a Paved Oval with a Go Kart track in the middle. It would take me months getting tired of wearing out the youngsters on all of those except the dirt bikes. Still love'em, still ride'em, but, I'm way too heavy to compete for very long with the addition of all the arthritus. Other than that, few laps and I'll give'em something to talk about back at high school the next day. lol

By the way, in your off season, try this out if you have a tablet with WiFi. Real Racing 3. Some kids egged me on until I got it and then they kept getting their friends to add me without telling them even in a stupid race game, I'll wear'em out. When one beats me and brags about it, I simply say to them, since they had never seen me in person. You do know you're bragging about beating a 65 year old? Then the arguments begin about being too old to race. lol.

That is a great place Robin you have down there. Race till they throw dirt on you buddy.

mhavanti said:

Robin,

I'm looking Teretonga Park, near Invercargill, on Google Earth as I write this. Thanks.

The reason I'm speaking to the wheel bushings is that there is inherit slop in your wheels contributing to the allowable amount of play in the steering wheel and all the slack from wheels, king pins, tie rods (4 of them), flat gear, pinion gear, steering shaft behind the dash. All that becomes aggregate................Thus, Clown Car Deluxe and that is not desirable to me. Probably not you.

Have fun with it.

Max

Click to expand...

Yes you are right about the "kingpin bushings".
And if I order the bushings online, I will be getting them all at the same time, freight is a big part of the cost for us when we get items from overseas.

Glad you liked the look of Teretonga, I raced there a few weeks ago, in the WET, WET, you can see it online via You tube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOylCXvUFXw&t=460s

Go to 1 minute for the move out from the grid, 5 minutes for race start, a crash at turn 1 then we end up behind the safety car and a restart.

I have only just started racing, thought I would take it up in retirement to give me a new challenge and a new hobby.
Racing again this coming weekend at Teretonga.

The whole area out there, once you are over the bridge is a recreational area,
All the sports you mention, and heaps more.
Powerboats on the river, canoeing, shooting, horseriding, Jet sprinting, mountain bike rides, rugby, the list goes on and on.
The only commercial enterprises are the Cabbage Tree, and the camping ground, houses can not be built there, but there are a few "beach houses" further out that got there before the council made the rules.
All the land is leasehold, and so far any attempts to freehold it have failed.
Long may it continue, otherwise the lifestylers who want to build there will mess it up with their penchant for changing the rules after theyget there.

That has happened all too often in NZ, and in particular around race tracks of various kinds.
Western Springs, Ruapuna, Levels, are just some, of course one of our iconic tracks is Manfield, in Feilding where the NZ Grand Prix will be held this afternoon, the final meeting for our TRS season.

We were involved in that in a small way in 2014.
But now we are concentrating on F1600/Formula Ford is the old name.

Enjoy the video.

Just ordered the parts you guys have given me the links to.

Fingers crossed I got it right, will look forward to getting this old Ride on a bit more ship shape!
I really quite like it.

Fixed the transaxle mounts last week, they were a mess and the transaxle was all out of alignment, causing the drive belt to jump off.

Now I will be able to order and fit the proper belts instead of the "B" v belts I have been using.

Next is to get he blade brakes working properly, and a nice shiny paint job to go with nice shiny paint job I did on the bonnet.

mhavanti said:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PINION-GEAR...552898?hash=item43e4ddd842:g:0o0AAOSw9mFWNJmP

Click to expand...

Mmm, not sure about this part fitting my White.
The seller was not able to be contacted prior to purchase, so after purchase, (and dispatch, which happened quickly), I made contact with the seller to confirm it was the right part.

He tells me it will not fit, and that I need White Outdoors 717-1700.
I can not find a listing this item, and the seller does not stock it.

Maybe he is wrong and you guys are right and this part he tells me will not fit, will fit.
I will wait and see, in the interim, I am about to make my own modifications.

Robin

Those parts fit my MTD; not sure about yours.....

I was told it wouldn't fit mine either. However, it is on mine and working fine. Hopefully it will take care of yours without modifications.

mhavanti said:

I was told it wouldn't fit mine either. However, it is on mine and working fine. Hopefully it will take care of yours without modifications.

Click to expand...

Fingers crossed, it will do the job for me too.
I thought I had a photo of the gear. but when I looked it was not there!
However, My gear is not straight cut, (as the one I bought appears to be)
but has a spiral shape, it can not be reversed as there is only one threaded end.

However, the plastic bush was kind of oval, so I cut a plastic shim and pushed it in around the inside of the bush.
Then pushed it on to the gear, it is tight, I thought too tight, took it off, put some lubricant on it and forced it on again.

Refitted it, and fitted the sprockets, the centre bolt was quite loose, it is tight now!

Voila, hey presto,

all seems so good for now, no slop like before, does not wander like it used to, I can only imagine what it will be like when I replace the kingpin bushes, and get a proper bush for the steering and a new gear.

During winter I may make a new insert for the bush to make it like new, not oval!
That is if I can not get the correct bits, but I will have a hunt.
Perhaps go back to Shanks.

Robin

Glad you have made good progress. Keep us all informed.

Good service from the Ebay supplier that you guys supplied the the link to.
Thank you.

Kingpin bushes put in today, not slop in the Kingpins now, it changed the toe out with no other alteration.
Now it does not wander like before.

The gear I ordered will not work, so it is for resale if anyone wants it. It is straight cut, mine is curved.

Now I need to replace the front wheel bushes, but they only have a little bit of slop.
Next job, is to take one of the top King pin bushes and put my "sleeve" in it for the steering gear bush.
Should make it even better.
I need to figure exactly where to place the gear so the most worn teeth get the least wear, about 2 of the teeth have more wear than the rest.

A few of my "chassis rails" has realigned the trans axle not the pulleys run on the same plane, the whole unit runs more quietly now.

I am happy.

Now to see if I can source a new steering gear.

For those interested:
I posted another video of motor racing, in the dry!

Robin,

Glad to hear the changes are bringing the old loved one back to life once again. I had to make a slight change to my old YardMan the other day after my lock nuts had backed off from the alterations made several years ago. While apart to check the teeth on the flat gear and being loose had caused excessive wear on my steering column gear. I pulled the gear, rotated it 180 degrees, as well as flipping it down for up or in other words, flipped it upside down.

The plastic used to remove the space between the flat gear and the flat gear retainer was replaced for a new piece and this time I didn't make it quite as thick. The little ole YM now has a very smooth turn once again, and the best part, the lovely bride noticed it is back to the one hour slack in the wheel which is less than the quarter turn it had when new in '96. I checked the cola bottle shims in the spindles and lost one. I'll have to replace it although it isn't noticeable that badly.

I apologize about the shaft gear as the photos I cam up with on my end shows the same gear I'm running which is straight. I'll see about helping you find the twist gear.

Max

I have been hunting, but Shanks say it is no longer available.
As does the MTD website.

I am having a think about how I can "refurbish" the gear.
I will take it out tomorrow and take it to an engineer friend.
It may be able to be metal sprayed not sure.
It would be quite tricky to get a new one made, and expensive I guess.

I can only keep hunting in the hope of finding new "old stock".
Sometimes I have been lucky with car parts.



You can see my gear, sitting in the bush.
It is spiral, and has a bolt that screws up the centre of the spigot that is in the bush.
Beside my "worn" gear, is the one I ordered in error.
You can see the "wear" in the gear of mine.
I may be able to "reposition" it slightly with some washers and spacers, but sadly I suspect not enough to be entirely happy with it.

Metal spray may be one solution, or maybe have the teeth built back up by a welder.
In either case, finish machining would be necessary, and possibly heat treating.
Pretty expensive, to say the least.

Is there any sort of mower junk yard there that may have one??

Of course, there's always the Mustang II front end............

Ronno6 said:

Of course, there's always the Mustang II front end............

Click to expand...

Tell me more

Hi Guys

I have made a small work around for the medium term.

I put a new bush with brass shim in the bush that locates the pinion shaft which has the gear for the steering segment.
The pinion shaft was tight, but works fine when all fitted up.
I wanted absolutely not slop in this part of the mechanism!

When I put the steering sector (ss)back on I put a washer under ss centre bolt, about 1.5 mm thick. (just one I had in my kit!)
I did not modify the other bolt that locates the ss.
The effect of this was to twist the ss down, make it run on the lower part of the gear on the pinion shaft.
This means it is effectively running on a "new" section of the gear.

Hopefully all will be well for the next 27 years!
But I will still keep searching the mower places for a better pinion shaft than mine!


And MTD say the part I want 717 1700 is now obsolete.
I will try to get a photo, but it is likely to be a challenge.

Bravo!

Sounds like you are right where you need to be and the Mustang II or American Motors Pacer front ends are still a possibility! lol

Well, a scant 8 months ago I thought I had this thing whipped.
Wrong...........

I need to replace the steering wheel shaft hex bushing and probably the pinion gear.....AGAIN.
Also had to replace a tie rod plastic bushing. UGH !!

So, now I have re-lit the redesign fires again for this horrible design.
I will be re-examining ways to incorporate spherical bearings at the ends of the steering linkages,
and trying to come up with a better steering gear arrangement.

(Even tho I have a new Hustler Raptor SD54, I use the Huskee doe mulching and rough terrain duties.)

Hate that for you.

My ole MTD All Steer drives better than it ever has and seems to be getting even easier to steer since all the slack has been removed and the nylon wear pad bushings put into place.

Good luck buddy,

Max

MTD STEERING PARTS

Ron, sorry I forgot ya can't post a pic in a pm, only a url, anyway check out these MTD steering parts from a 600 SERIES machine, you might be able to convert yours to this type I used the steering pic that I think it was you that posted for my reference, let me know if this is the same thing we're yappin bout ...BOO

https://www.partstree.com/parts/mtd...9-yard-machines-lawn-tractor-2005-home-depot/

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/m...parts-c-20039_20060_197430.html?q=13AG601H729

AHH NEVER MIND THE PICS here's the URL'S after all.. can't get my schitt together today !!

1 is ereplacementparts other is partstree, be sure you check the DIAGRAM numbers real close if you think this will work ..SORRY for the screw-up on the PM, keep me up to speed... Boo

Ron if ya scroll down on the steering parts section, in the (ereplacementparts) you can see the parts, I'm hoping this is all the right stuff I'm sending, when I said modify, I was meaning if you have the spiral gear, you would have to change to the STRAIGHT cut gear and associated parts/hardware.. I'd like to know I helped get this machine steering the way you want, we'll see !

Boobala said:

Ron if ya scroll down on the steering parts section, in the (ereplacementparts) you can see the parts, I'm hoping this is all the right stuff I'm sending, when I said modify, I was meaning if you have the spiral gear, you would have to change to the STRAIGHT cut gear and associated parts/hardware.. I'd like to know I helped get this machine steering the way you want, we'll see !

Click to expand...

Yup.
Steering gear parts are correct (up to but not including the axles), but I already got those OEM parts laying around.
My thing is that the original design sucks, and I would like to develop a system that doesn't have
all the slop to begin with, which just gets worse with age.
Shore up the pinion to quadrant meshing; steering link to quadrant joints, and the steering link to spindle links.
If I had a cadaver frame and steering setup, I could attempt meaningful modifications.

Ronno6 said:

Yup.
Steering gear parts are correct (up to but not including the axles), but I already got those OEM parts laying around.
My thing is that the original design sucks, and I would like to develop a system that doesn't have
all the slop to begin with, which just gets worse with age.
Shore up the pinion to quadrant meshing; steering link to quadrant joints, and the steering link to spindle links.
If I had a cadaver frame and steering setup, I could attempt meaningful modifications.

Click to expand...

Sorry bout the goofup, don't know what you've got over there, graveyards are probably your next best shot, shame you're not close-by we have 2 good size graveyards I deal with, and sometimes these other guys that pick-up broken machines to rebuild & sell, dump a big amount of leftover stuff once in awhile, If ya send me a list of what to look for, I'll keep my eyes open next time I'm at one of the yards. Nice thing bout Fl. is, there's a LOT of mowers and we can mow at least 9 months or more a year, so there is a good amount of used equipment around especially at first spring, when folks decide since they can't get their mower started, it's time to buy a new one, ( except for us gear-heads of course) Well buddy i THOUGHT I might have been of some help, NO cigar this time ..:thumbdown:..:confused3:

Almost any and all input can be helpful.
What I really need is to mate the steering and front suspension from a Mustang II to my mower's chassis..........

Ronno6 said:

Almost any and all input can be helpful.
What I really need is to mate the steering and front suspension from a Mustang II to my mower's chassis..........

Click to expand...

OK, showing my Polish, but it is what it is, what hell is a Mustang 2 ..?? Only Mustang I know is a car ! ( LOL )..:confused2:..:confused2:

Mustang II

Ok so my picture is of the only one that looked good but that is what it is.

Nice car, Chuck.
I had a '74 fastback w/302 and auto. Ran good til I let Ford dealer "service" the tranny.
Never shifted right again, and I could not convince then that they screwed it up!

Anyway, back to the issue at hand.
I noticed that the fan gear's teeth are indeed canted hopefully to an angle that meshes with the pinion.
I may attempt to cut one up and stack the gear faces together to make a thicker contact surface.
Won't exactly cure the problem, but woun't hurt,either.
I'm also going to bush the point where the steering shaft exits the dash panel just below the steering wheel.
Removing that slop won't cure the problem either, but will give the system a more precise feel.

Remember you are working with a worm gear and if you line up the 2 fan gear's teath it may get harder to turn or not be able to turn at all. May have to offset it for the worm gear to mesh.

BlazNT said:

Remember you are working with a worm gear and if you line up the 2 fan gear's teath it may get harder to turn or not be able to turn at all. May have to offset it for the worm gear to mesh.

Click to expand...

Nope. No worm gear...straight cut pinion gear

Good that makes things easier.

BlazNT said:

Good that makes things easier.

Click to expand...

Chuck: please excuse my ignorance, (c'mon gimme a break, remember I can STILL call Santa about your stocking ya know ) anyway, do I get this right ?? you wanna adapt an automotive steering into your MOWER ..??? sounds like a MAJOR undertaking to me , FOR A LAWNMOWER ..??? Ya gonna drop a HEMI on it and hope hope ya can hold it straight for a 1/4 mile ??? ( LOL ) we had a 2005 MTD Yard-Man/ 46in. deck 21HP Briggs, used it for 2 years to cut 3 1/2 acres some slight hills N lots of Pine trees (them pine-cones make a helluva racket if ya don't pick em up before mowin) it was a LAWN-tractor, NOT a GARDEN tractor, and we NEVER had a steering problem with it, machine was bought used and about 4 years old ( it got stolen) ALL this for a mower you really don't use for your regular mowin ?? I'm surely missing something here good buddy, I'm NOT tryin to insult your intelligence or intentions, just bein NOSEY... AGAIN !! .. :laughing:..:laughing:

It was offered in a tongue-in-cheek manner...kinda like your picture...
Mustang II front ends are used in hot rodding as a highly adaptable, highly precise
steering/suspension setup.

It was a joke,Son!
(I never been much of a Hemi guy, although we rebuilt one of the first "Fire Dome V-8" motors
in a 1952 DeSoto. 276.1 cu. in.) (that .1 musta been REAL important..)
More of a small; block Chev guy myself.........

Boobala said:

Chuck: please excuse my ignorance, (c'mon gimme a break, remember I can STILL call Santa about your stocking ya know ) anyway, do I get this right ?? you wanna adapt an automotive steering into your MOWER ..??? sounds like a MAJOR undertaking to me , FOR A LAWNMOWER ..??? Ya gonna drop a HEMI on it and hope hope ya can hold it straight for a 1/4 mile ??? ( LOL ) we had a 2005 MTD Yard-Man/ 46in. deck 21HP Briggs, used it for 2 years to cut 3 1/2 acres some slight hills N lots of Pine trees (them pine-cones make a helluva racket if ya don't pick em up before mowin) it was a LAWN-tractor, NOT a GARDEN tractor, and we NEVER had a steering problem with it, machine was bought used and about 4 years old ( it got stolen) ALL this for a mower you really don't use for your regular mowin ?? I'm surely missing something here good buddy, I'm NOT tryin to insult your intelligence or intentions, just bein NOSEY... AGAIN !! .. :laughing:..:laughing:

Click to expand...

Just a complete car guy here. If I can make it go faster and straighter then why not. Remember My son and I built a 10 sec 1/4 mile 4 cylinder turbocharged Eclipse. That is not much different than a lawn mower now is it?:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Interesting looking at that parts list. I assume lots of those parts will fit an old White FST 14 4 wheel steer.

However, none of the suppliers are keen to suppy NZ, wont even reply to emails.
Guess that is the problem living on the underside/topside of the world!

Robin Williams said:

Guess that is the problem living on the underside/topside of the world!

Click to expand...

Ahhh, another subscriber to the "south Superior Society" I see!
The notion that North is up, hence better than South, which is "down."
East is right, hence better than West, which is left.
These global constructs are....purely arbitrary!!

I have held for many years that the South Pole is actually at the the top of the planet.
So, one traveling from South to North would be going "down North," and Australia, instead
of being "Down Under," would be "Up Over."
One of many non-conformist views I have held since my youth...........(I am semi left-handed...)

Some day I may expound on my theory of: "Holinetics: A fresh new look at today's social problems."

Ronno6 said:

Ahhh, another subscriber to the "south Superior Society" I see!
The notion that North is up, hence better than South, which is "down."
East is right, hence better than West, which is left.
These global constructs are....purely arbitrary!!

I have held for many years that the South Pole is actually at the the top of the planet.
So, one traveling from South to North would be going "down North," and Australia, instead
of being "Down Under," would be "Up Over."
One of many non-conformist views I have held since my youth...........(I am semi left-handed...)

Some day I may expound on my theory of: "Holinetics: A fresh new look at today's social problems."

Click to expand...

MAN !! that will open Pandora's box, AND a can of worms !! to say the very least !!

Boobala said:

MAN !! that will open Pandora's box, AND a can of worms !! to say the very least !!

Click to expand...

That's what I call EFFICIENCY !!

Ronno6 said:

That's what I call EFFICIENCY !!

Click to expand...

I call it .. Lock N Load !! ..:laughing:..:laughing:

Boobala said:

I call it .. Lock N Load !! ..:laughing:..:laughing:

Click to expand...

Yeah:

Lock of hair
Load of crap !

Methinks we're getting off topic.....that should be reserved for the MTD Transaxle repair forum!

Ronno6 said:

Yeah:

Lock of hair
Load of crap !

Methinks we're getting off topic.....that should be reserved for the MTD Transaxle repair forum!

Click to expand...

Agreed !

I just purchased a steering bracket assy. including the mounting bracket,fan gear, and all attaching bolts and bushings for the gear.
When I get that I will have the setup test bed that I have been wanting.
I'll be able to test methods and modifications to tighten up that assembly without
incurring down time for the tractor, which I still use regularly for leaf-mulching duty.

After tightening up the fan gear mounting and pinion gear meshing, I'm thinking
spherical washers for the upper drag link attachments and Heim joints at the spindles.

Robin Williams said:

Interesting looking at that parts list. I assume lots of those parts will fit an old White FST 14 4 wheel steer.

However, none of the suppliers are keen to suppy NZ, wont even reply to emails.
Guess that is the problem living on the underside/topside of the world!

Click to expand...

Jacks Small Engines
Barretts
Is where I get most of my bits from.
If they post to Aust they will post to NZ.

Ronno6 said:

I just purchased a steering bracket assy. including the mounting bracket,fan gear, and all attaching bolts and bushings for the gear.
When I get that I will have the setup test bed that I have been wanting.
I'll be able to test methods and modifications to tighten up that assembly without
incurring down time for the tractor, which I still use regularly for leaf-mulching duty.

After tightening up the fan gear mounting and pinion gear meshing, I'm thinking
spherical washers for the upper drag link attachments and Heim joints at the spindles.

Click to expand...

You need to get rid of those pin type tie rod ends as well.
Get the spherical ball ones but pay the extra for steel and not the zinc cause the zinc ones will break.
Buy some longer mounting bolts in grade 8 or better so that the tie rod end is on the solid shaft and not the thread
Now if you want to be real annal weld some tube on the fan gear over the pivot hole then bore the tube and hole out to take a double row ball or roller bearing and naturally a longer pivot bolt.
This will not only reduce friction & wear on the fan gear pivot hole but substantially reduce the effort required to turn it

bertsmobile1 said:

You need to get rid of those pin type tie rod ends as well.
Get the spherical ball ones but pay the extra for steel and not the zinc cause the zinc ones will break.
Buy some longer mounting bolts in grade 8 or better so that the tie rod end is on the solid shaft and not the thread
Now if you want to be real annal weld some tube on the fan gear over the pivot hole then bore the tube and hole out to take a double row ball or roller bearing and naturally a longer pivot bolt.
This will not only reduce friction & wear on the fan gear pivot hole but substantially reduce the effort required to turn it

Click to expand...

That's some pretty meaty stuff,Bert!
I had considered Heim (or Spherco) rod ends at the steering knuckles.
The drag link is threaded 7/16-20, the rod end for which will have a 7/16" bore.
I wish there were 7/16" shoulder bolts, but...nae...
Would need a 7/16" bole and drill out the connector arm n the knuckle, or use smaller bolt(I believe the stock stud is 3/8")
and use a bushing, but there are no 3/8id x 7/17od bushings.
So, I think a 7/17" bolt would do the trick.
Also interesting notion on the fan gear pivot. I'll do some serious tinkering on that one!
Maybe incorporate bicycle headset bearings.......
Thanks!

The headset bearings might be a bit big.
Plenty of double row balls down to tiny 5mm.
On the commercial mowers the deck tensioning arm has a tube welded to the pivot point and either have a solid greased bush or top & bottom bearing.
Cheap domestic ones just have a hole in the tension arm and flop around like the proverbial rooster in a man's hoisery .
In the land of the free & home of the lazy I would imagine the bearing shops probably sell the tube bearing mount either as a top hat bolt on item or a weld on tube.
That is the best way to get rid of the rock in the fan gear. That will work a lot better than packing plates and a knock out sealed bearing is an easy replacement.
If you go with the double fan gear idea ( I like that ) then you wont need very much tube as it will be almost thick enough to take the bearing
Just watch how big you make it cause you don't want to foul on the belts with the mower in the fully raised position.

As for the tie rod ends, don't overlook metric ones

The problem with stacking fan gears is that the rack gear section of the fan is formed at an angle
so that the tooth faces of the gear should mesh with those of the pinion at a zero angle.
Stacking another on top will have a staggered overlap teeth rather than a continuous smooth gear tooth faces.
One solution is to trim the arc-shaped rack section off the donor fangear and attach that section atop
the recipient gear with teeth aligned as intended.
Welding would be easiest, but, as I do not have that skill, maybe screws or rivets at the ends and spring roll pins
at a few points along the arc.

As for rod ends vs the stock ball joints, I fear that ball rod ends are longer than the stock joint.
I am not sure if there is adequate threading on the drag links to allow assembly to the same overall length.
More research needed.........

I received my steering support bracket and fan gear assembly today.
Now the game can commence in earnest!

I'm sure you fella's will find this short video of significant help in your research !! I marvel at the simplicity of the descriptive adjectives presented here, you may have to watch it 4 or 5 times to fully grasp the true full effects presented ..:laughing:..:laughing:..:laughing:

Boobala said:

I'm sure you fella's will find this short video of significant help in your research !! I marvel at the simplicity of the descriptive adjectives presented here, you may have to watch it 4 or 5 times to fully grasp the true full effects presented ..:laughing:..:laughing:..:laughing:

Click to expand...

Pretty basic stuff, Boo.
Learned all about that in preschool...............
Actually this video is quite old, and is the product of a first grade class project in central Florida.

Ronno6 said:

Pretty basic stuff, Boo.
Learned all about that in preschool...............
Actually this video is quite old, and is the product of a first grade class project in central Florida.

Click to expand...

Is that a fact..?? Well here's another fact to "absorb" IN all it's glory ! I've decided a NEW name for you is long overdue, after careful studying of your secretive activities I'm sure the name.. "Ben Dover" is quite a "FITTING" ..:thumbsup:

Ronno6 said:

I received my steering support bracket and fan gear assembly today.
Now the game can commence in earnest!

Click to expand...

I know that this is an old thread, but did you ever get around to stacking the fan gears? I have an MTD made Bolens and have had nothing but trouble with the pinion and fan gear setup. Looking for any type of fix that might last me more than a few months.

Cleave said:

I know that this is an old thread, but did you ever get around to stacking the fan gears? I have an MTD made Bolens and have had nothing but trouble with the pinion and fan gear setup. Looking for any type of fix that might last me more than a few months.

Click to expand...

The project went on to the back burner as my new Hustler Raptor took the focus off the MTD.
I have the components and have got my welder up and working now, so, when the spirit again moves me, I am poised to go.
I also want to change the design of all the pivot points of the assembly to replace the plastic bushings and swivel joints
on the tie rods to beefier Heim joint designs.

Ronno6 said:

The project went on to the back burner as my new Hustler Raptor took the focus off the MTD.
I have the components and have got my welder up and working now, so, when the spirit again moves me, I am poised to go.
I also want to change the design of all the pivot points of the assembly to replace the plastic bushings and swivel joints
on the tie rods to beefier Heim joint designs.

Click to expand...

Gotcha. I feel like half the projects I start get moved to the back burner and stay there permanently haha. Whenever you do around to it, I'd definitely be interested to hear the results.

Cleave, you can cut up some fairly thick plastic to lay on top of your fan gear to hold it tightly against the metal of the raised area on the frame as well as the top of the fan gear. Use extra heavy soapy molybdenum grease to place between the plastic, the fan gear and of course the fan gear and the frame. Also, make sure the holes are quiet tight for the center bolt bushing to keep the plastic from moving. The plastic needs to cover the entire bottom area of the fan gear retainer.

Then the bolts should be tightened until they are bottomed out on the bolt shanks. If there is still some movement in the bolts, remove the original plastic and find a piece that is a bit thicker to make the fan gear all but impossible to move by hand, yet tightens the bolts to the shanks and the steering pinion gear has no problem moving the fan gear back and forth with the steering wheel. Once you have gotten to that point, attach your steering links and test again with the front tires on the floor. If there is still some slack in the steering, you still need a bit more slack removed.

Remember, plastic has a crush factor. After changing my "cure" of my 1996 MTD Yardman for the third and now final "cure". It is driving even better than I told Ronno about when he was looking for his cure.

The lovely bride asked me when I put power steering on that sucker. By the way, don't forget to time your rack and pinion or your steering wheel will be off and it will also turn shorter one direction than the other depending upon which way you clock your pinion or at least it does on my 4 wheel steer. Mine relates to the second rack and that is for the rear wheels. Try backing a trailer with that thing.

Good luck,

Max

mhavanti said:

Cleave, you can cut up some fairly thick plastic to lay on top of your fan gear to hold it tightly against the metal of the raised area on the frame as well as the top of the fan gear. Use extra heavy soapy molybdenum grease to place between the plastic, the fan gear and of course the fan gear and the frame. Also, make sure the holes are quiet tight for the center bolt bushing to keep the plastic from moving. The plastic needs to cover the entire bottom area of the fan gear retainer.

Then the bolts should be tightened until they are bottomed out on the bolt shanks. If there is still some movement in the bolts, remove the original plastic and find a piece that is a bit thicker to make the fan gear all but impossible to move by hand, yet tightens the bolts to the shanks and the steering pinion gear has no problem moving the fan gear back and forth with the steering wheel. Once you have gotten to that point, attach your steering links and test again with the front tires on the floor. If there is still some slack in the steering, you still need a bit more slack removed.

Remember, plastic has a crush factor. After changing my "cure" of my 1996 MTD Yardman for the third and now final "cure". It is driving even better than I told Ronno about when he was looking for his cure.

The lovely bride asked me when I put power steering on that sucker. By the way, don't forget to time your rack and pinion or your steering wheel will be off and it will also turn shorter one direction than the other depending upon which way you clock your pinion or at least it does on my 4 wheel steer. Mine relates to the second rack and that is for the rear wheels. Try backing a trailer with that thing.

Good luck,

Max

Click to expand...

Appreciate the detailed instructions Max. I have a new steering shaft and fan gear on the way (the original teeth were pretty well rounded off) as well as new bolts and bushings. I'll take your suggestion and use plastic to snug everything up. Hoping to get some time this weekend to work on it. Been push mowing the last few weeks and I've about had my fill of that.

The double stacking idea is intended to increase the surface contact area between fan gear and pinion.
This oughta reduce pinion wear.

Ronno6 said:

The double stacking idea is intended to increase the surface contact area between fan gear and pinion.
This oughta reduce pinion wear.

Click to expand...

That makes sense. Unfortunately, I don't have a welder (or the requisite skill to use one) to join the fan gears. I'd need to find an alternative way.

I don't believe stacking would work unless you were to forward one over the other and even then the sides of the teeth would not make full contact with the pinion gear. Considering the two stacked gears would be making less contact at each point, the pinion would fail more quickly than the stacked fan gears may seat in.

One more thing to consider is the extra effort on the pinion to move the rack gear. More lateral pressure on the pinion bushing along with more on the rack bushings due to trying to stand up the fan gear.

Wth, can't hurt to try. Just don't see that working sucksexfully.

Max

mhavanti said:

I don't believe stacking would work unless you were to forward one over the other and even then the sides of the teeth would not make full contact with the pinion gear. Considering the two stacked gears would be making less contact at each point, the pinion would fail more quickly than the stacked fan gears may seat in.

One more thing to consider is the extra effort on the pinion to move the rack gear. More lateral pressure on the pinion bushing along with more on the rack bushings due to trying to stand up the fan gear.

Wth, can't hurt to try. Just don't see that working sucksexfully.

Max

Click to expand...

Those are some valid points. I do want to avoid anything will cause premature wear on the already soft metal of the pinion gear. The design is truly terrible. I understand that these are low end, budget mowers but to use such soft metal and then have grooves in the teeth of the pinion gear is infuriating. I'll try shimming with plastic and tightening up all the components and see where it gets me.

If you run into trouble. Send me a note, I'll give you my digits. You can call and we'll walk you thru it. By the way, the plastic you use needs to be extremely dense. One material I use for a great many projects is pretty easy to come by. Run by a new build or a home that is undergoing remodeling. If a new exterior door is being installed, the door unit will have a threshold protector that stays on the threshold until construction is completed. Ask for that. Considering the item will be thrown away, most likely it will be given you. Wala, you're in business and is a perfect thickness and density for your application.

Good luck,

Max

mhavanti said:

I don't believe stacking would work unless you were to forward one over the other and even then the sides of the teeth would not make full contact with the pinion gear. Considering the two stacked gears would be making less contact at each point, the pinion would fail more quickly than the stacked fan gears may seat in.

One more thing to consider is the extra effort on the pinion to move the rack gear. More lateral pressure on the pinion bushing along with more on the rack bushings due to trying to stand up the fan gear.

Wth, can't hurt to try. Just don't see that working sucksexfully.

Max

Click to expand...

Dunno about all that, Maxie.
The fangear tooth faces are perpendicular to the fangear body at that point.
Stacking that portion of a second gear would just widen the tooth surface, yielding a wider contact patch with the pinion
This would actually serve to REDUCE the pressure per given area of tooth contact, thereby reducing wear.
The overall force would not be increased as the rest of the system would not change as a result of this mod.
The force required to steer would not increase, hence, with a wider contact patch, stress on the given area of pinion tooth would be
reduced, probably bu half.
Stress on the pinion bushing would remain unchanged.

mhavanti said:

If you run into trouble. Send me a note, I'll give you my digits. You can call and we'll walk you thru it. By the way, the plastic you use needs to be extremely dense. One material I use for a great many projects is pretty easy to come by. Run by a new build or a home that is undergoing remodeling. If a new exterior door is being installed, the door unit will have a threshold protector that stays on the threshold until construction is completed. Ask for that. Considering the item will be thrown away, most likely it will be given you. Wala, you're in business and is a perfect thickness and density for your application.

Good luck,

Max

Click to expand...

Really appreciate the help. Just so happens that I have a family member that is in the process of building a new house. I'll check with him about getting a hold of some of that plastic.

Ronno,

I agree with that as long as the two gears are sitting at a ninety degree angle to each other and you both probably do have a ninety degree set up. All I've had in the shop have had the 12 degree angle pinion with the turned pinion gear. I assumed his gear was the same and thus, my information other than the plastic bushing helping to remove the climb of the fan gear would then be incorrect.

Try not to get too hot down there this morning.

Its hot in Misery today.

Or, Missouri to those that aren't in the know.

Max

mhavanti said:

Ronno,

I agree with that as long as the two gears are sitting at a ninety degree angle to each other and you both probably do have a ninety degree set up. All I've had in the shop have had the 12 degree angle pinion with the turned pinion gear. I assumed his gear was the same and thus, my information other than the plastic bushing helping to remove the climb of the fan gear would then be incorrect.

Try not to get too hot down there this morning.

Its hot in Misery today.

Or, Missouri to those that aren't in the know.

Max

Click to expand...

I have not precisely measured pinion to fangear engagement angle, but I have to believe that, as the fangear angles from horizontal to cant the teeth that it is a design feature intended to give the 2 gears the best angle at point of contact.
Otherwise, pinion intersecting fangear at an angle would cause fangear teeth to contact on a point and gouge the pinion teeth.
Normally, engineers do not make such practical decisions, but in this case I gotta believe.....

I have a steering gear plate and fangear laying around. I will investigate further.