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1971 Wheel Horse 800 Special

#1

BKBrown

BKBrown

I'm attempting to find manuals etc. for this 1-0150 (800 Special 1971) so I can get it running for my 85 year old neighbor.
This one has an 8 horse B&S engine and his BIL took the battery and most of the wiring quite some time ago -- no mower deck. The tractor itself seems to be in good shape - all he needs it for is to pull small carts with fire wood and to travel around his property. The engine turns over with the pull rope so it is not locked up.

Any help will be appreciated ! Thanks !


#2

Two-Stroke

Two-Stroke

Good for you, BK. :thumbsup: You're helping your neighbor again.

I don't know anything about that model so all I can offer is a couple of general suggestions.

The Toro website support page may be a good place to start.

If you can find out the series of the engine (as opposed to the specific model number) that may help you search online.

I remember Toro as one of the better brands when I was growing up. This spring I bought a 1987 Suzuki-powered Toro push mower -- that fine machine has given me new enthusiasm for the brand.
I was able to find a manual (pdf) for the engine online but I'm sorry that I can't remember where I found it.


#3

BKBrown

BKBrown

Thanks,

The engine is a B&S 8 Hp. With starter and Generator 190434 0638-01-7008284
I have found some Manuals and parts diagrams. Most of the parts seem to be discontinued for the tractor and engine. This 800 Special seems to be rare.

When I get into it I may just want to find an engine that can be mounted with the same shaft size in the same position so the drive pulley will work.


#4

K

KennyV

Is there any spark..? Those old B&S engines had a point system, you can replace it with a solid state module ... most everything else on it should last forever... :smile:KennyV


#5

BKBrown

BKBrown

Hi Kenny,
Haven't got that far yet - It does look like someone stripped out the spark plug hole in the head. :thumbdown: Some idiot had the plug held in by putting an open end wrench around the top of the plug and holding the wrench down with one of the head bolts. :eek:

If everything else will work - I wonder if someone could heli-coil the head ?? I have never actually used one.

I removed the outer pulleys (that had the electric clutch on them) since it will only be used for travel and pulling a cart.

If I can't get it running --- do you think I could find a horizontal shaft engine to replace this one ?


#6

BKBrown

BKBrown

Kenny,
To answer your question - There is a spark (weak, but there is one).

If I am careful, the spark plug seems to thread in right, but I did not attempt to tighten it.

I'm sure the fuel system including the carb will need to be cleaned - The gas cap is missing, but the tank was under the hood and seems fairly clean inside - I'll just need to find a cap that will fit and be vented. I'd love to get this engine running so it does not need a new one.


#7

K

KennyV

You can most likely get by using a heli-coil, I have seen it work... don't like them for that... the hot set up I have used is Time Sert they are great ++ TIME-SERT Threaded inserts for stripped threads, threaded inserts, thread repair stripped sparkplug's, Ford sparkplug blowouts, threaded inserts threaded, repair stripped threads, stripped threads, inserts threaded inserts, Ford spark plug repair,...
The problem with heli-coil on spark plug holes is they tend to come out with the plug... but you most likely will never be replacing the plug so it should work. If not there are Time Serts to repair a repair that failed...

I'm sure another engine could be found but if the one that is there is somewhat sound, for the lite work it will be doing I'd try getting that to go... :smile:KennyV


#8

K

KennyV

I have seen the wrench holding a plug in ... but it was a box end clamping a plug in a flat head... Low compression engines would let you get by with some strange cobbles... :smile:KennyV


#9

BKBrown

BKBrown

Just an update in case anyone is interested.
I took the head off the engine this morning and got it clean inside and out. The Spark Plug threads are worn, but the plug would thread in straight. the top outside of the plug hole looked like someone had attacked it with a chisel all the way around, so I used a reamer bit that is wider than the hole and got the chisel chips back from the inside edge and then a flat ended stone to flatten the points of those chips. When clean, the plug looks almost like new so I took the compression ring off and put some JB Weld around only the top 1/8" or so of the plug (not down on the threads) and put the plug in the head hoping that the plug will be sealed at the top without having to tighten enough to make the compression ring seal.
Cleaned the gasket, valves, and seats + the top of the piston as well as I could and put the Head back on.

Next is either freeing up (they don't move) the choke and throttle cables or finding new ones that will fit and cleaning up the fuel system. It needs a new foam air filter, but it is looking like this may actually run. :smile: MAYBE ? :rolleyes:


#10

Dangeroustoys56

Dangeroustoys56

It could be re powered with another horizontal shaft motor - my 69 raider 10 breifly had a 5HP honda on it ( for about 5 feet) till the trans locked up. Ive even seen some with big v twin horizontals on em.

Its worth a shot seeing if it runs - for first starts ( after sitting a long time) i put a couple shots of PB blaster in the spark plug hole to 'free things up a bit'.


#11

BKBrown

BKBrown

Everything turns over easily and the valves open and close properly. I turned it over a few times while the head was off to clean out valve seats. There was a spark. Next is clean out the fuel system and get an air cleaner. It will need a new fuel filter too since the old one was so brittle that the ends broke off inside the fuel lines when removing it. As I said the gas cap is also missing - I'll need to find someting that fits.
I'll want to drain the oil and see if there is water in it - it will get new oil anyway. I knw it was parked as scrap, but who would take the gas cap off ?????


#12

BKBrown

BKBrown

Here is another update - got the choke and throttle cables moving.

I figured out that this engine came with a generator and starter, but they are gone. Took out the needle valve that is accesable without removing the carb bowl and cleaned it plus used compressed air and carb cleaner in that jet + put a short piece of tubing on the carb inlet and put carb cleaner in it. Sprayed a little starter fluid in air inlet and pulled the rope -- got a pop (it actually fired once) letting it set with cleaner in carb. More later.


#13

K

KennyV

Sounds very promising .... You can make a temporary gas cap, using aluminum foil.... once that is the last item you need, finding a cap should be no problem.... :smile:KennyV


#14

BKBrown

BKBrown

Thanks Kenny,
I know it is possible to short out the plug (like they first did) with a spring steel piece to the top of the plug, but that would require lifting the hood. There is still a dash switch, but all the starter / generator wiring is just dangling there. What would I do to short out the coil ?
I will probably need to take the carb off and clean it, but hope that won't be necessary. It will be a pull start, but J.R. is still able to do that kind of thing. :thumbsup:
Thanks again,

BKB


#15

K

KennyV

You can make a kill wire lead by connecting to the primary windings of the magneto where the points are) and run that wire to a standard Magneto type key switch... That type key switch has a post that applies ground in the OFF position ... it will essentially short out the points when you go to OFF...

The other type Key switch removes 12 volts from the powered coil when you go to OFF.... :smile:KennyV


#16

BKBrown

BKBrown

Thanks Kenny,
That is what I figured, but never actually did it before without old wiring there or a wiring diagram. I've got to find the points (it shouldn't be hard).

I might just put in a simple toggle switch for RUN and OFF


#17

BKBrown

BKBrown

Update again - Gas line in and it will fire and run on Starting fluid. Will probably end up taking carb off and cleaning it. Right now there is SeaFoam in the gas and I'm waiting to see if MAYBE that will open up anything in the Carb.


#18

BKBrown

BKBrown

Don't know if anyone is interested, but decided to repower since parts for the old engine would have run more than a new one. I was advised that the 150117-0123-B8 would replace the 190434-0638-01 8 Hp Briggs.
Got the new engine and will be able to place it so the pulleys line up, BUT there is no wiring diagram and no instructions or harness came with it and the connectors don't match the old harness.

I'll put in an email to the place I ordered the engine, but since it is Sunday, won't expect an answer soon.

Any Ideas ?????



#19

K

KennyV

BKBrown said:
[
Got the new engine and will be able to place it so the pulleys line up, BUT there is no wiring diagram and no instructions or harness came with it and the connectors don't match the old harness.


I'm sure you have found this parts breakdown : Parts and Diagrams for Briggs and Stratton 150117-0123-B8

They have the ignition system, and charging system... looks like that engine comes with a shut off key switch so you could relocate it on the tractor or extend the wiring... The kill circuit is a simple apply ground to stop engine and remove ground to start...
If you get a generic key switch you need one made for a magneto engine... it will have a ground wire to the switch position #1 and the kill wire attaches to position #3... in the OFF position those are connected together...

Position #2 connects to Lighting, Carb solenoid (if it has one), and any other accessory needing 12 volts and Position #5 is the key Source of 12 volts, it is wired to the Large terminal on the starter solenoid that has the positive battery cable. When the key is in the ON position #2 & #5 are connected.

Position #4 wires to the small terminal on the starter solenoid... When in the start position #2, #5 AND #4 are connected... Of course that position on the key switch is spring loaded so when you release it it returns to the Run position....


The charge wire from the regulator goes to the Large terminal with the positive Battery cable onthe starter solenoid....

I would fuse the "charge wire at 20 to 30 amps, depending on the alternator size... and also fuse the 12 volt supply to the key switch, with a 10 or 20 Amp fuse depending on the total lighting and other accessory load...

I will copy this to your PM & your running thread... It might help someone else wire an engine....
I will also try to find a wiring diagram or schematic, that 'may' make this easier to follow... I just checked the terminal layout on a switch I had laying around... When I find a proper link I'll post it both places... I like rewiring, it is not as complicated as it might seem, good luck & let me know if there is anything I overlooked... :smile:KennyV
Click to expand...


#20

K

KennyV

I found it...
It is labeled alternator replacement guide... BUT it has all the wiring for various briggs AND the necessary alterations needed to go from one wiring harness to another....
Not too hard to follow, starts out with basic electrical but gets into specific applications as you drill down....
Find it at: http://www4.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/alternator_replacement.pdf

Seems like I came across this once before.... this time I'm going to save a copy of this pdf to my computer... can't have too many sources.
Oh and I double checked my wiring layout I gave you for the switch... it's good so you shouldn't have any problems...

As to wire gauge I like larger wire .. always works better.... Like you said the factory wire size from the solenoid to the starter is marginal at best... :smile:KennyV


#21

Two-Stroke

Two-Stroke

:thumbsup: Great work, KennyV. :thumbsup:


#22

BKBrown

BKBrown

Have thanked Kenny by PM, but he deserves the THANKS here too ! :thumbsup:

:cool2: :biggrin:


#23

K

KennyV

Hey... So far BKBrown is doing All the work....:laughing:

But wiring or Rewiring is not too bad, can get a little tedious until your basic layout is there... Then before you know it your finished... goes together pretty fast once you really get into it... :smile:KennyV


#24

BKBrown

BKBrown

If anyone cares .... the new engine is in the Wheel Horse.

Starts and runs fine, pulleys line up, all 3 forward gears and reverse work ----

It will need a seat and the left steering arm needs to be welded to the axle shaft.

The drive belt seems OK, but probably should be replaced.

All 4 tires are up and stay up right now, but severe dry rot is evident -- probably just the tubes keeping them up.

If anyone would have a need for the OEM engine Briggs 190434-0638-01 and you would like to have it ??? it is 8 Hp . The starter and alternator are not present.


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