Repairs Starter Solenoid

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Hi all,

New to this forum and I sure hope you can help. I looked through some of the archive posts but couldn't find an answer for my question, therefore here I am.

Our son has a old Murray 20 HP twin with the three blade deck and it will not start. I replaced the starter awhile back and with the key on, jumped across the solenoid and the engine turned over. Therefore with my limited knowledge I assumed the solenoid to be the cause. Pulled the solenoid out to get the P/N which is a Trombetta 93265-10.

Went to the Web to find one and couldn't locate that P/N with the "-10", did locate one with a "-9". Can anyone tell me if a "-9" will work or since it is a lower "-" number might it be to small of an amp unit?

Also, since this is an old (heavy on the old) mower, chances are that this solenoid was upgraded/superseded at some point in the past. I looked for some kind of a replaced with reference, but with no luck. Is there someplace I can go to look up replacements for old parts?

I'm pretty certain if other old mowers are out there in use someone has had the need to replace this solenoid, if so what did you use?

Any and all help will be appreciated.

Thank You
Tom
 

Boobala

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Most older Murrays (and many other mowers) use a common solenoid, available at most mower shops and auto parts stores, see pics ..

DSCN1443.jpg...SOLENOID 2.JPG

here's a video , how to test the solenoid, Taryl acts stupid... but is VERY smart !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvW7VbsleZ0


did you test the solenoid before determining you REALLY need one, I had starting problems with my murrays and found it to be a poor ground ing of the solenoid itself, by adding an extra wire to solenold mounting bolt then to good spot on an engine bracket my issue ended. Also I can send you more info of P/N and parts dealers if needed .... let us know what happens

Also it would help if we had some info about YOUR machine, ( to find the manuals) see example...

GET INFO.JPG
 
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Boobala,

Thanks for your reply.

Can't give you more info on mower as there is no data plate or other info that I can find, but it appears very old.

Enjoyed the YouTube video and it was very entertaining and tomorrow I'll run a test on the solenoid to be sure it is bad and not the switch or a grounding issue.

The one we have is the three post, 2 main (one from battery the other to starter) and the other from the switch, but unlike the picture you provided in your post, this one has a slip-on connector, not a bolt post connector. If the type we have is difficult to find , I could always crimp a post connector to the switch wire if you think that is an option.

Any P/N you think will work if it is bad will be appreciated. If you aren't sure I'll take this one to the local repair shop, hate doing that as on line prices are much better (we are retired and our son doesn't have any extra cash--you may understand that scenario).

Thanks again for your reply and feel free to add any other info you think may be helpful.
Tom
 

Boobala

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Boobala,

Thanks for your reply.

Can't give you more info on mower as there is no data plate or other info that I can find, but it appears very old.

Enjoyed the YouTube video and it was very entertaining and tomorrow I'll run a test on the solenoid to be sure it is bad and not the switch or a grounding issue.

The one we have is the three post, 2 main (one from battery the other to starter) and the other from the switch, but unlike the picture you provided in your post, this one has a slip-on connector, not a bolt post connector. If the type we have is difficult to find , I could always crimp a post connector to the switch wire if you think that is an option.

Any P/N you think will work if it is bad will be appreciated. If you aren't sure I'll take this one to the local repair shop, hate doing that as on line prices are much better (we are retired and our son doesn't have any extra cash--you may understand that scenario).

Thanks again for your reply and feel free to add any other info you think may be helpful.
Tom

it's almost 11:00 pm , tomorrow is another day ......
 

Boobala

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Tom, I have a "boat-load" of info. on Murray mowers, (so do other members) I will try to help as much as I can, it would help immensely if you could post some pics of your machine, including the engine. maybe we can get a close match, ( MANY Murray parts are interchangeable between models & years. ) by looking at the following pics you'll see many part numbers, you can use to search for the solenoid of your liking, ..

click on pics to enlarge

SS3.JPG...SS 1.JPG...SS 2.JPG


SS 4.JPG...SS 4wire A.JPG...SS 5.JPG
 

Boobala

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More info. Tom,

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/murray-lawn-tractor-parts-c-17887_17888.html

since you have a 3 blade model, I will ASSUME .. correctly I hope , it's a 46in. cut deck & a 20 ?? HP eng.
click on the above link, when you get to the ereplacemant page of Murray mower models, SCROLL DOW to the 46 starting numbers ( 461000x71A ) I think is the first one click on it, scroll down to the diagram pages, click on the diagram you want enlarged, by looking at the mower pics in several models, (there are many) you might identify a match to your machine.. Sorry if I'm overloading you with info... Boobala
 

bertsmobile1

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Solenoids are not mower dependent.
I keep only 2 universal heavy duty ones that get fitted to everything.
One is a 3 terminal & the other is a 4 terminal.
Both have bolt on control terminals with bolt on spades included so they can be coupled to either ring terminals or spade terminals.
Rotary sell the best one & it is made in Brazil .
Before you replace it check that it is the solenoid & not bad wiring.
I wrote this quite some time ago.

I like to start from the starter motor and go backwards .
Do the following 5 tests, regardless of the results from an or all of them as there can be more than one problem and you want to isolate where the problem lies.
Elimination of individual parts is important so you know by the end, the battery, solenoid & heavy power circuits are all in good order.

1) try to jump the starter motor directly from your car or truck.
Starter turns = starter good

2) do the same directly from the mowers battery
Starter turns = mower battery good
No turn = duff battery, recharge it & try again.

3) check for voltage ( + 12V ) at the solenoid trigger wire with the key in start position
3a) same with ground trigger wire ( 4 wire solenoid ) or body of solenoid ( 3 wire solenoid)
( I like to test V from the battery hot terminal to ground terminal rather than ohms as they give funny readings )

4) leave ground jumper in place ( from step 2 ) & try key start.
Starter turns = power connection good but ground connection suspect ( most common )
Confirm it by trying again, extra ground removed
I run a secondary ground from the grounding bolt to one of the starter mounting bolts & paint over both with liquid electrical tape.

5) Remove the trigger ( thin ) wire / wires from the solenoid.
Ground one & bridge from the hot terminal to the other.
Starter cranks = solenoid good.
Solenoid is not polarity sensitive, BUT THE WIRING IS so make sure you remove the thin control wires.
Note a thinner wire on the hot terminal is not a control wire. It is the main power feed to the mower.


From here on things become very mower dependant as starting circuits are getting changed all the time.
Basically the power goes in a loop from the hot side of the solenoid ( saves wire, no other reason ) through the fuse to the B terminal on the key switch then to the PTO switch then to the parking brake switch then to the solenoid trigger switch , easy peasy after you grow the 3rd arm. Use a test lamp and follow the power.
However a lot of mowers with a 4 pole solenoid, run a secondary ground control circuit to the ground solenoid wire through the lap bars.
Then to stop this interfearing with the normal safety function of the ground kill, it goes to a relay with the ground as the switched connection.
These are a PIA as the + control wire to the relay comes from the power loop above and the ground side of the control comes via the normal cut out functions of the lap bars.
Be very careful because if you have a system like this and accidentally send 12V down the ground loop you can fry the magnetos on some circuits.
 
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Boobala.

Thanks for all your info and please don't worry about overload as I will digest and if need be ask more questions.

OK, here is were I am and sorry it took so long as I was unable to start early this morning. From your info and what I was able to get after removing rust and dirt, the mower is a 2000 Murray Garden Tractor 20HP twin with a 52 inch deck. From this it is a model 52101X92A with a current configured starter solenoid P/N 7701100MA.

Taking your info to heart I did the following, battery at 12.55 volts, 12.55 volts to battery side of solenoid, no voltage to the starter switch. Found the inline fuse (solenoid to switch) and it looked good, but had no continuity. Not knowing if starter switch was good, pulled it and tested as best as I could with the limited knowledge from the internet. The difficulty is this switch has 6 poles and all I could find were 5 pole videos and explanations. However, I was able to determine that in the off position it was grounding the Mag and in the start position there was continuity from the "power in" pole to the solenoid pole. Not exactly sure about how the run or safety stuff works through the switch, but all the safeties have been bypassed. I know it isn't very safe, but our son understands what he is dealing with until he can get something better.

Set things back up and installed a new fuse and now have power to the activation/energizing post on the solenoid and verified solenoid was grounded, but it still will not energize thus needs to be replaced.

Have ordered the 7701100MA solenoid, but do have a question to improve my understanding curve. Could the solenoid failure blow the fuse or may we have another issue that caused it?

Again thank you for all your effort providing the data and direction enabling me to get this far. After we get the solenoid and install it I'll post the outcome.
Tom
 
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bertsmobile1,

Wow, thanks for your details and as you probably figure, I didn't see it until after my last post, we must have been drafting at the same time by noting the time stamp.

I'm not sure I follow all of you steps as I'm not all that knowledgeable about lawn mowers, but learning at a quick pace. Since, I've already ordered a solenoid and believe this one is bad, I'll keep your details handy should I need them and if I do, I'm certain you well need to walk me through some of it.

Thanks again and by chance, do you see any fault in my conclusions stated in my last post?
Tom
 

Boobala

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Tom, Bert is a very smart person ( about MANY things) glad he sent his procedures, and he's usually always willing to help, yeah being he's from "down-under" some of us have a lil difficulty in our interpretation of what he's trying to convey, but we all manage.
I noticed you said you may have a Model 52101x92A , did you find any I.D. on the machine or through the ereplacements model diagrams, I copied these 2 diagram pages, the elect. schematic, and the body , is this what YOUR mower resembles..?? If so good, then we have info. for the mower, see pics,

View attachment 34780 ...NEW ELECT.JPG

NOW, we need the engine info. this SHOULD be on the engine itself, on a V-twin it's usually on a label & stamped into a valve cover , although it may be configured another way .. MORE pics ! ... I'm not sure where it's located on a opposed twin ?? and I don't know which you have ??

DSCN2475.jpg...ENG ID.jpg



We definitely need this info or pics ( both preferred ) AND just to keep ya busy, ( LOL ) here's some reading material ...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ybHphbUNTQUNNR2s/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6NaqjIxWV1ySkZjTTA5TGltZEE/view



Take note, it's a waste of time and money to just keep replacing parts UNLESS you have tested them and it's PROVEN to be bad !!
Also, always go BACK to the last few posts, to make sure you have'nt skipped over a new post !!
 
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