Ethanol gas (food for thought)

Darryl G · Apr 22, 2017

Non-ethanol gas in not available at the pump at all in some areas by law. It has to do with air pollution "non-attainment" zones.

hrdman2luv · Apr 28, 2017

Darryl G said:
Non-ethanol gas in not available at the pump at all in some areas by law. It has to do with air pollution "non-attainment" zones.

I'm lucky. There's a feed store close to me that has non ethanol fuel. You can sure tell the difference in the color of it.

cpurvis · Apr 28, 2017

hrdman2luv said:
I'm lucky. There's a feed store close to me that has non ethanol fuel. You can sure tell the difference in the color of it.

Or by it's nasty smell. Ethanol is a contaminant of gasoline and if it weren't for the Big Corn lobby and government subsidy, the market would have dried up for ethanol gas long ago.

As if it wasn't bad enough already, the bought-and-paid-for politicians are considering upping the content to 15%.

TonyPrin · Apr 28, 2017

cpurvis said:
Or by it's nasty smell. Ethanol is a contaminant of gasoline and if it weren't for the Big Corn lobby and government subsidy, the market would have dried up for ethanol gas long ago.

As if it wasn't bad enough already, the bought-and-paid-for politicians are considering upping the content to 15%.

I'm not a proponent of ethanol blended gasoline, but want accuracy on the issue. There is no such thing today as a government subsidy related to ethanol. There had been a subsidy but it ended 6 years ago. Of course there are requirements under the Renewable Fuels Standard that result in ethanol blended gasoline which benefit corn growers by creating a market that wouldn't otherwise exist but that's not a subsidy.

Beyond that, it's important to note that ethanol and gasoline are comparable in price today so the cost of gasoline (mostly taxes, anyway) would be about the same with or without ethanol. The real cost of ethanol, though, is that it has substantially less energy content so we have to burn more of it per gallon than straight gasoline.

hrdman2luv · Apr 28, 2017

Excellent post, Tony. That's some good info.

cpurvis · Apr 28, 2017

TonyPrin said:
I'm not a proponent of ethanol blended gasoline, but want accuracy on the issue. There is no such thing today as a government subsidy related to ethanol. There had been a subsidy but it ended 6 years ago. Of course there are requirements under the Renewable Fuels Standard that result in ethanol blended gasoline which benefit corn growers by creating a market that wouldn't otherwise exist but that's not a subsidy.

Beyond that, it's important to note that ethanol and gasoline are comparable in price today so the cost of gasoline (mostly taxes, anyway) would be about the same with or without ethanol. The real cost of ethanol, though, is that it has substantially less energy content so we have to burn more of it per gallon than straight gasoline.

Then explain to me why pure gasoline is typically 30 cents per gallon more expensive than ethanol gas.

TonyPrin · Apr 28, 2017

cpurvis said:
Then explain to me why pure gasoline is typically 30 cents per gallon more expensive than ethanol gas.

You're absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing out my error. I should have said cost rather than price. Clearly non-blended gasoline is more expensive but that's not because of production cost. Of course gasoline is a petroleum product that fluctuates with the value of oil so it's likely for gasoline to become substantially more expensive than ethanol if the $/barrel price increases.

One more point, when comparing ethanol and gasoline, it's important to compare the correct products. Keep in mind that ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline. 87 octane blended gasoline contains only 84 octane straight gasoline plus ethanol. Thus, 87 octane straight gasoline is inherently more costly because of additives needed to get the gasoline to 87 octane without ethanol. Of course virtually all gasoline found at retail contains additives so it's very difficult to actually find straight gasoline.

Darryl G · Apr 29, 2017

The primary reason for the use of ethanol is to replace Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) as an additive in gasoline due to environmental problems with it. MTBE replaced Tetraethyl Lead, also due to environmental problems. The soils along many roadsides are still contaminated by lead from the use of Tetraethyl Lead and a lot of groundwater is still contaminated with MTBE. It is very soluble and mobile in groundwater (compared to other gasoline components). In comparison, ethanol is much less toxic...I deliberately consumed some after work this evening and it made me feel good

turbofiat124 · Apr 30, 2017

TonyPrin said:
10% ethanol gas, referred to as E10 is an EPA standard. (Hopefully this doesn't lead to an EPA debate.) It means the gasoline contains approximately but no more than 10% ethanol and 90% or more gasoline. Approx. 97% of the gasoline sold in the USA is E10. E10 is available for all octanes. Interestingly, ethanol is a higher octane than gasoline so an 87 octane blend is actually created with less than 87 octane gasoline and over 87 octane ethanol.

Non-ethanol gasoline is sold in some gas stations but is available primarily in gallon or smaller sizes.

Fresh E10 is not harmful to fairly new vehicles and small engines but can be harmful to older ones. The biggest potential problem with ethanol is in small engines like lawn mowers that aren't used frequently. Over time, the ethanol separates from the gasoline in a process called phase separation. Phase separation can cause major damage to a small engine particularly during or after storage, which is why best practices exist.

I buy non ethanol gas for my mowers.

The reason I buy non ethanol is because I'd always heard alcohol will absorb moisture in the air/tank and that's what causes phase separation. Not so much the the ethanol itself separates from the gasoline but when moisture is introduced to the mixture. But I'm not a petroleum expert.

Not this spring but spring of 2016, somehow water got into my lawnmower's tank over the winter. The only thing I could think of was I forgot to top the tank off before putting it up for the season. Then over the winter, condensation formed in the tank and the water sunk to the bottom. I blinded over two fuel filters. I ran all of this gas through one of those Mr. Funnels and it seemed to get rid of the water.

I still buy non ethanol though.

turbofiat124 · Apr 30, 2017

Darryl G said:
The primary reason for the use of ethanol is to replace Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) as an additive in gasoline due to environmental problems with it. MTBE replaced Tetraethyl Lead, also due to environmental problems. The soils along many roadsides are still contaminated by lead from the use of Tetraethyl Lead and a lot of groundwater is still contaminated with MTBE. It is very soluble and mobile in groundwater (compared to other gasoline components). In comparison, ethanol is much less toxic...I deliberately consumed some after work this evening and it made me feel good

I had always heard that $1.00 worth of ethanol costs $2.00 to make/transport and ethanol is highly subsidized by the government thanks to the corn lobbyists so that is why it is added to gasoline. For no good reason other than for kickbacks. Sounds like a good conspiracy theory but I kind of doubt that to be honest.

Then I read the reason behind 10% ethanol being added to gasoline was an anti-knock additive which is cheaper and not as toxic as MTBE. That's why pure gasoline costs more. Ethanol is supposed to be around 114 octane.

Ethanol gas (food for thought)

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Darryl G

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