A Learning Experience

This post may be a bit long and, for that, I apologize in advance, but I have got to get this off my chest.

I am just a regular guy who has been paying to have my lawn cut for the past few years and now that I've recently retired at a relatively young age, I have the time to do it myself and, in the long run, save myself some money.

It should be noted that I have spent the last month researching both riding mowers (tractors and ZTR's) and self-propelled lawn mowers as I am in the market for for some type of tractor and a lawn mower.

I am not exaggerating when I say that I've spent well over 40 hours researching this topic. Additionally, I've visited the John Deere, Toro, Husqvarna, Simplicity and Cub Cadet Dealers in my area and listened to their pitches about how their product is superior to all others. Of course, I've also visited the big box stores and the one pro of buying from them is that you have a 30 day return option. True, they carry the budget lines although Home Depot does carry the entry level Honda HRX for $599. However, the dealers basically have no return policy. Once you get it home and use it, you own it and they will not take it back. That's a big deal considering all of the quality control issues with these machines. If I'm going to buy a mower that's hit or miss why not buy it from a place where I have at least 30 days to return it? In a way, that makes sense. It would be quite frustrating to get an expensive new mower home and be dissatisfied with it after the first cut and not have a way to return it. Especially, in my case, when I don't have a way to transport it.

Warranties: I've seen warranties ranging from 2-5 years, but there are a slew of unhappy customers with all brands who complain that the warranty wasn't honored because the manufacturer and/or dealer said the problem was due to operator error, abuse, neglect, bad fuel or normal wear and tear. In other words, unless the customer can basically prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the problem is a manufacturing defect it doesn't appear that the warranty means much in practice. So, not being able to return it once it's been used even one time and a "thin" warranty in practical application is also food for thought.

And, John Deere dealers look down on the John Deere tractors sold by the big box stores. I had one tell me that his dealership doesn't even work on them and that they're really not John Deere tractors. Hmmm, does the left hand know what the right hand is doing?

However, in order to get the "better" equipment, I am still inclined to buy from a local dealership, that is, if I can find a product worth buying.

My budget for the tractor or ZTR is $3500 and $500 for the lawn mower which I believe is more than reasonable for a one acre property. I plan to move in a couple of years to a smaller property and don't want to spend any more than this amount.

After reading countless reviews, opinions and comments on numerous lawn mowing forums and websites including the dealer websites, mowersdirect.com, Lowe's and Home Depot, I have come to the conclusion that for my budget there is actually no make or model that I have confidence in for reliability, value for the money and quality of the cut. It seems that for every reviewer who raves about a given product it is negated by another reviewer who rants about it. Are they really talking about the same item? It's kind of funny.............. dozens of "Best Mower I've Ever Owned" comments followed by "Worst Mower I've Owned" comments over and over again.

For example, many reviewers (including Consumer Reports and other consumer rating groups) rank the Honda HRX or HRR series (with Honda engines) as their first choice for an "excellent" self-propelled mower yet many of the reviews list problems with mulching and cut quality that leaves a row of uncut grass and clumps throughout the lawn. In fact, there's a whole forum about the issue. Plus, many purchasers believe the Honda engine is difficult to start once it's warmed up. Now, these are not just the big box Honda mowers, but also includes the HRX mowers which cost upwards of $1000. Many also have negative comments about the twin blades and the design features of the deck itself. I had one and I have to agree. I was less than impressed with the HRX series that I bought about 6 years ago and I paid over $700 for it at that time. I also had a hard time getting it started despite proper maintenance and fresh fuel and it left a lot of grass uncut despite having new blades each season. Sometimes, I had to mow the grass twice and I cut it faithfully each week. It was just not a great mower despite all of the hype. So, it can be said that I was less impressed with the HRX series. I ended up selling it after two years.

And, Consumer Reports lists Toro's as their 2nd choice, but the reviews for all Toro's are not very impressive even at Toro.com. I went to a Toro dealer today and was looking at an Super Recycler model costing $700 with a Toro engine and all of these great features and the reviews were not very impressive. Interestingly enough, the higher end Toro's don't even have the "Bag On Demand" feature that the entry level models have. And, people tend to slam the Personal Pace feature and say that the RPM's are way too low to do a good job mulching. Of course, there are plenty of other folks who think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Ditto for Husqvarna, Cub Cadet, Ariens, Craftsman, etc....

Nobody seems to like MTD products, but the so called independent manufacturers don't fare any better.

Dealers, of course, talk up their products while knocking the competition. The problem is that I can't seem to find one brand of self-propelled mower that seems to stand out for consistent easy starting, even cutting and QUALITY bagging and mulching. People hate/love the engines, decks, self-propelled features across the board.

A frequent comment is how the current offerings are vastly inferior to the previous generation's models and this is across the board for all makes. All brands seem to have wheels falling off right out of the box, broken and missing parts and the overall quality control for the entire industry seems to be as reliable as trying to predict the stock market a month from now.

It just seems ridiculous that there isn't a consensus on a $400-$500 lawn mower that will excel at being, well, a lawn mower.

As for tractors, John Deere wants $3200 for an X350 plus $200 for the mulching kit. The X350 has the new Accel Deep deck which is supposed to be a hot product and I haven't heard too much out there about the X350 so I've been strongly considering it. Of course, some people love the Kawasaki FS600 engine while others say the Kohler 7000 is better. And, then there are the people that believe only a ZTR is the way to go even for an acre.

I've heard pros/cons about Cub Cadet Enduro XT2 and Toro's Timecutter SS 4225 (ZTR) which are cheaper, but still nobody consistently raves about either one of those either.

So, I now am no closer to deciding on which two pieces of equipment I need for my one acre. The lawn would be easily cut with either a ZTR or tractor as it is mostly flat with just a few groups of trees and obstacles and I will use the self-propelled mower to mow (and primarily bag) a smaller back yard which can't be accessed by a riding mower. That's why I need the best bagging mower with an even cut and no clumps. I will always be able to cut it weekly and when the grass is dry. I don't want clumped grass or "trails" of clippings when I'm using the highest setting and the grass is dry. Nor do I want grass and dust spraying out all over me like I had with the HRX.

One would think that $4000 would buy a great tractor or ZTR along with a self-propelled mower that had great quality control. Apparently, that's not going to happen so I'm going to have to roll the dice. How did it get to be where buying a quality lawn mower is so difficult? Back in the day, a $100 lawn mower virtually no features (compared to today's offerings) seemed to suffice and nowadays there's not one brand that seems to stand on it's own merits. They all have issues. So, that being said what's the best of the worst for my needs?

P.S. Now, I know why Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors.......................

You might googlel Paul Simmeka (sp) and/or todaysmower.com. Informative site w/ articles on what manufacturers manufacture what mowers. Great reviews on ZTRs and tractors.

Pineapple said:

You might googlel Paul Simmeka (sp) and/or todaysmower.com. Informative site w/ articles on what manufacturers manufacture what mowers. Great reviews on ZTRs and tractors.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

The very first thing to remember is people are different.
One person will mow a lawn & think it is great then next one will expect his grass to look like astro turf,
Some people will mow too low or too fast for the conditions then blame the mower.
Very few actually go to the effort of finding the right mower for their property and most importantly the type of grass you are growing.


There is no such thing as the absolute best mower for every yard and every lawn but there are some that will cut your grass & lawn better than others.
Too many clowns buy a top shelf rotary mower and expect it to leave there grass cut like a professional using a reel mower.
They see all the manicured lawns on TV and think that their lawn should look the same unaware that a team of professionls had been working that lawn for a month before the film crew turned up, ( I have been on set for hundreds of garden photo shoots ).

No rotary mower will give as nice a cut, particularly less then 2" high as a reel mower will so if you like short grass, get a reel and sulky.
Downside of this set up is you have to keep the lawn free of sticks and the first stone you hit will cost big time for blade repair.
Of the rotaries, no mower can hold a candle to the rider pro series ( Husky - Stiga- Johnsored) of out front articulated mowers for cut quality.
however they will not cut more then 2" off the grass and can not handle grass taller than 5" or wet grass or high moisture broad leafed grasses or decidious tree leaves.

Ten years ago you could get a mulching deck, or throwing deck or a bagging deck because the airflow under the deck has to be substantially different for each type of clipping handleing.
Then they went to removable baffels with specalist blades or blades with spacers so you can change the height of the blade inside the deck neither was not as good as a dedicated deck
Finally , because domestic mowers are very price sensitive they came out with universal decks which universally do a poor to average job at every thing.

Metal pressing is very expensive so most stamped decks are getting shallower and that makes good deck design even harder.
If you look at identical decks fitted to to Husky, McCullock, Poulan Craftsman, Roper etc that all come out of the AYP factory you will see that as the mower gets cheaper the decks get shallower.

Finally if a product is doings the job you bought it for very well as you expected it to you don't stand up on your roof top and scream its praises.
If a product fails substantially you jump up & down and yell & scream as loud as you can, every where you can to any one who you think will listen
Thus 99% of every thing you see on open forum reviews will be the bad bits.
These are good in so far as a design or manufacturing flaw will get repeated people complaining about the same thing, so you know what to inspect carefully when making your purchase.
The only product reviews worth looking at as a comparitive evaluation are the ones done by consummer groups who test mowers side by side under the same conditions.

Now if you want to get the best out of this forum we need to know what type of grass you are growing, what type of trees are on your block, how you like your grass to look., what you do on your lawn, what height you like your grass to be, how much time you are willing to spend on lawn maintenance, do you want to throw, mulch or bag, do you compost , where you live, sun orientation of your block, rainfall and a few photos of your yard.

When you went around to the dealers if you found a saleperson who asked you some of these type of questions rather than just parroting off the specks of what they want to sell, go back there with a wad of cash and some photos, close up of you grass and general yard layout
and have a good talk to them.

at this time of years you will get the best deals on mowers.
Dealers get them on credit, 60 days to 120 days and particularly the smaller dealers are willing to do good deals on a particular mower if it's credit time is about to expire.

bertsmobile1 said:

The very first thing to remember is people are different.
One person will mow a lawn & think it is great then next one will expect his grass to look like astro turf,
Some people will mow too low or too fast for the conditions then blame the mower.
Very few actually go to the effort of finding the right mower for their property and most importantly the type of grass you are growing.


There is no such thing as the absolute best mower for every yard and every lawn but there are some that will cut your grass & lawn better than others.
Too many clowns buy a top shelf rotary mower and expect it to leave there grass cut like a professional using a reel mower.
They see all the manicured lawns on TV and think that their lawn should look the same unaware that a team of professionls had been working that lawn for a month before the film crew turned up, ( I have been on set for hundreds of garden photo shoots ).

No rotary mower will give as nice a cut, particularly less then 2" high as a reel mower will so if you like short grass, get a reel and sulky.
Downside of this set up is you have to keep the lawn free of sticks and the first stone you hit will cost big time for blade repair.
Of the rotaries, no mower can hold a candle to the rider pro series ( Husky - Stiga- Johnsored) of out front articulated mowers for cut quality.
however they will not cut more then 2" off the grass and can not handle grass taller than 5" or wet grass or high moisture broad leafed grasses or decidious tree leaves.

Ten years ago you could get a mulching deck, or throwing deck or a bagging deck because the airflow under the deck has to be substantially different for each type of clipping handleing.
Then they went to removable baffels with specalist blades or blades with spacers so you can change the height of the blade inside the deck neither was not as good as a dedicated deck
Finally , because domestic mowers are very price sensitive they came out with universal decks which universally do a poor to average job at every thing.

Metal pressing is very expensive so most stamped decks are getting shallower and that makes good deck design even harder.
If you look at identical decks fitted to to Husky, McCullock, Poulan Craftsman, Roper etc that all come out of the AYP factory you will see that as the mower gets cheaper the decks get shallower.

Finally if a product is doings the job you bought it for very well as you expected it to you don't stand up on your roof top and scream its praises.
If a product fails substantially you jump up & down and yell & scream as loud as you can, every where you can to any one who you think will listen
Thus 99% of every thing you see on open forum reviews will be the bad bits.
These are good in so far as a design or manufacturing flaw will get repeated people complaining about the same thing, so you know what to inspect carefully when making your purchase.
The only product reviews worth looking at as a comparitive evaluation are the ones done by consummer groups who test mowers side by side under the same conditions.

Now if you want to get the best out of this forum we need to know what type of grass you are growing, what type of trees are on your block, how you like your grass to look., what you do on your lawn, what height you like your grass to be, how much time you are willing to spend on lawn maintenance, do you want to throw, mulch or bag, do you compost , where you live, sun orientation of your block, rainfall and a few photos of your yard.

When you went around to the dealers if you found a saleperson who asked you some of these type of questions rather than just parroting off the specks of what they want to sell, go back there with a wad of cash and some photos, close up of you grass and general yard layout
and have a good talk to them.

at this time of years you will get the best deals on mowers.
Dealers get them on credit, 60 days to 120 days and particularly the smaller dealers are willing to do good deals on a particular mower if it's credit time is about to expire.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the detailed reply. In a nutshell, my lawn is about 65% fescue and 35% bermuda. It is fertilized by a service 8 times a year (pre-emergent, post-emergent, weed control, grub control, etc...). Most of the trees are oak trees and I have a sprinkler system throughout the property which is on a well so watering is not an issue. It is mowed weekly and ideally the top 1/3 of the blade is cut up to a maximum of 1". I live in an area where the winter is relatively mild, but summer is very hot and the spring is typically warm, wet and windy. The bermuda is typically dormant from around late October thru early March. My back yard is comparatively small to the rest of the lawn and is totally bermuda. I will use the self-propelled mower to bag it whereas the front/side lawn will be cut by a tractor or ZTR and will be mulched. The fescue is only in the front and side of the property.

Hopefully a local USA lawn guy will chime in.
We use different names down here so they mean nothing to me.
Did you notice what the lawn care guys were using ?
And if their gear was doing a good job consider getting the same second hand.
a lot of operators turn their gear around regularly while they can get a good resale.
the others run them till dead, different philosophy same net result.
Even old almost flogged out commercial gear will run for decades when only cutting 1/2 acre a week.
Good luck

I use toro zmasters I'm running 3 of theses currently. I love them especially like the adjustable baffles on the deck.I've been using toros for 12 years now. I don't think the new mowers are as good as the older ones. If you could find a used older one say pre 2010 with low hours I think you'd be happy with it. My oldest machine is a 08 with over 2k hours on it with its 3rd engine. Other than normal stuff like belts and bearings in deck its been problem free. This is just my opinion and you know what they say about that.

RDA.Lawns said:

I use toro zmasters I'm running 3 of theses currently. I love them especially like the adjustable baffles on the deck.I've been using toros for 12 years now. I don't think the new mowers are as good as the older ones. If you could find a used older one say pre 2010 with low hours I think you'd be happy with it. My oldest machine is a 08 with over 2k hours on it with its 3rd engine. Other than normal stuff like belts and bearings in deck its been problem free. This is just my opinion and you know what they say about that.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

bertsmobile1 said:

Hopefully a local USA lawn guy will chime in.
We use different names down here so they mean nothing to me.
Did you notice what the lawn care guys were using ?
And if their gear was doing a good job consider getting the same second hand.
a lot of operators turn their gear around regularly while they can get a good resale.
the others run them till dead, different philosophy same net result.
Even old almost flogged out commercial gear will run for decades when only cutting 1/2 acre a week.
Good luck

Click to expand...

Most of the lawn care guys in my area use commercial Toro ZTR's and lawn mowers. One of my neighbor's has a Toro Timecutter ZTR which seems to do a nice job. For my price range, if I get a ZTR, it will most likely be a Toro.

Thank you.

I also use toro I feel they give the best all around cut on different types of grass.
I use a toro greens master on my front yard and a grounds master on the back. ( 2 acre back yard). I run 4 cheap timecutters for my business.
If I had a yard like yours I would also recommend the Z master.