87 octane with ethanol OR 91 octane ethanol free

sorefeet

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I'm not overly concerned with the added cost although my boat will suck. I'm concerned about running 91 octane in my small engines and my 2 stroke boat

Here in Australia, the fuel bowsers have warning signs up advising against the use of ethanol added fuel in small engines. I refuse to use it at all.
 

djdicetn

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No ethanol= good
Higher octane, not so much. As discussed in another thread, a change in octane requires a change in timing, something you can't do in a small engine in a mower, walk behind or rider. Buy ethanol free if you can, but stick with the recommended octane in most anything you can't monkey with the timing on.

I disagree that higher octane requires engine timing alteration. Before the mandated ethanol 10% at 95% of the stations, I ran Amoco Premium(non-ethanol) in my lawn tractor, boat(125hp Mercury 2-stroke outboard), weed eater, etc. and both of my vehicles(a 1995 Chevy Silverado with a 350 V8 which "requires" regular 87 octane and a 2001 Lincoln LS with a 3.9L V8 that "requires" premium 91+ octane). Absolutely peak performance in ALL of that equipment and 0% fuel-related problems. After running premium(with ethanol) in the 2001 LS for a couple of years both(yeah, it's got two) electric fuel pumps went out(a $250 repair). Mechanic said..."it's the ethanol"....PERIOD. But, with the price of premium non-ethanol, I've decided to run the mid-grade(89 octane) in my new ZTR and all small engine applications(and the boat). I will continue to use premium ethanol gas in my two vehicles with an ethanol fuel treatment every other tankful and a fuel system cleaner every 3,000 miles. I am going to try that for a while, but still may go to the premium non-ethanol for the 2001 LS. The Chevy truck seems to do OK with the ethanol fuel(but it has a "mechanical" fuel pump rather than an electric. Time will tell.
 

Tom59

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For anyone that's interested there are websites that let you know who has ethanol free gas in your area- google it - or Bing. I looked them up yesterday for my area only a few locally.
Find ethanol-free E0 gas stations
 

Mini Motors

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djdicetn- first, nobody likes ethanol except corn farmers. But unless your mechanic did a chemical analysis of those fuel pumps, or is relying on a test done on those exact fuel pumps, or a similar pump made with the same materials, He's just venting his dislike of ethanol. Or just saying the easy thing, or telling you what he thinks you want to hear. I'm quite sure he didn't even take it apart. What mechanic has that kind of time? The fuel injection systems require a high pressure to move fuel. That's why there are two. They don't last long under those conditions.

And then I also have to disagree on your perceived performance of your smaller engines. Your cars and possibly your outboard have a computer that do monitor and adjust timing. But the small engines don't. And it is a fact that higher octane fuels burn slower and longer. So ignition should start sooner, and in a perfect world, the exhaust lobe on the cam shaft should hold the valve open a tad longer as well for higher octane fuels. But mostly, you couldn't possibly "feel" any difference in small engine performance. At best, a small difference could be measurable on a dyno.
 

djdicetn

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djdicetn- first, nobody likes ethanol except corn farmers. But unless your mechanic did a chemical analysis of those fuel pumps, or is relying on a test done on those exact fuel pumps, or a similar pump made with the same materials, He's just venting his dislike of ethanol. Or just saying the easy thing, or telling you what he thinks you want to hear. I'm quite sure he didn't even take it apart. What mechanic has that kind of time? The fuel injection systems require a high pressure to move fuel. That's why there are two. They don't last long under those conditions.

And then I also have to disagree on your perceived performance of your smaller engines. Your cars and possibly your outboard have a computer that do monitor and adjust timing. But the small engines don't. And it is a fact that higher octane fuels burn slower and longer. So ignition should start sooner, and in a perfect world, the exhaust lobe on the cam shaft should hold the valve open a tad longer as well for higher octane fuels. But mostly, you couldn't possibly "feel" any difference in small engine performance. At best, a small difference could be measurable on a dyno.

Nope, he didn't have to take it apart....he knows the type of plastic used in the diaphrams of these particular(2001....pre-ethanol) fuel pumps(and has mfg info that states that ethanol deteriorates that type of plastic) used in my vehicle. And....he's been a mechanic for 40 years and he can attest to the measurable incremental "proliferation" of these repairs in his shop since the "mandated introduction" of 10% ethanol fuels. I never said I noticed "increased performance" when using pre-ethanol "premium octane" fuels in small/marine engines or my vehicles(anf post-ethanol premium octane currently). What I said was "0% fuel-related problems" for pre-ethanol usage which means no fuel pump problems, carb/injector problems, reduced mpg(about 2-6mpg less with ethanol) and 230,000 miles on the Chevy Silverado with the 350 V8(original engine) and nothing but premium gas in it since day one. Argue that statistic!!!!
 

Mini Motors

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I'd not argue. But it is what I said, "mfg info" in your words. And regarding your previous words "Absolutely peak performance", I might have read a bit more into it. My apologies. It doesn't surprise me that your mileage is worse. But I am curious about how 2001 Chevy carb plastic is susceptible to ethanol issues, but my 70s Honda motorcycles aren't. I've owned a couple, and plastics were just started to be used. My '73 CB350F runs just fine, although that shouldn't really surprise me either. Honda saw the writing on the wall regarding lead removal from gas, and used hardened valves from the start('59 for importing into the U.S.). I doubt they could predict ethanol, but maybe they just lucked out.

I just don't see how getting 100k miles out of a fuel pump is so bad though. We don't start looking for excuses when a alternator goes in 100k. Since the advent of computers in cars, power demands have doubled and tripled. My '74 van w/ a 350V8 had a 46 amp alt., and an upgrade was a 60. Today's smaller cars are over 100. And they're about the same size as the old ones, and the tech hasn't improved that much.
 

Maine Yankee

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I'm not too young to remember. I remember pimging, dieseling, and vapor lock....:rolleyes: I also remember putting in "dry gas" in the winter to keep fuel lines from freezing. Wasn't that basically ethanol? As usual, I'm confused...:eek:
Bruce
The dry gas you mention comes in 2 types, the methyl or ethyl actually is an agricultural product, very similar to the ethyl alcohol that we all dislike, and it is ok for routine summer use, It stays separated from petroleum products) but the "good" dry gas, that will actually mix with ice, or water, and let you re start a frozen fuel system, is isopropyl alcohol, will combine with moisture and become a true drying agent. Years ago while working in a service station, there was a demo that would use small amount of water in a test tube, and a small amount of each product. You could see the water stay at the bottom of the tube with the methyl, but disappear and become one with the isopropyl
 

djdicetn

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I'd not argue. But it is what I said, "mfg info" in your words. And regarding your previous words "Absolutely peak performance", I might have read a bit more into it. My apologies. It doesn't surprise me that your mileage is worse. But I am curious about how 2001 Chevy carb plastic is susceptible to ethanol issues, but my 70s Honda motorcycles aren't. I've owned a couple, and plastics were just started to be used. My '73 CB350F runs just fine, although that shouldn't really surprise me either. Honda saw the writing on the wall regarding lead removal from gas, and used hardened valves from the start('59 for importing into the U.S.). I doubt they could predict ethanol, but maybe they just lucked out.

I just don't see how getting 100k miles out of a fuel pump is so bad though. We don't start looking for excuses when a alternator goes in 100k. Since the advent of computers in cars, power demands have doubled and tripled. My '74 van w/ a 350V8 had a 46 amp alt., and an upgrade was a 60. Today's smaller cars are over 100. And they're about the same size as the old ones, and the tech hasn't improved that much.

Both my Gravely and Kawasaki manuals state that if I use gasoline with more than a 10% ethanol content that it will void my warranty. So, if they started selling E85 ethanol gas, which with all the new "flex fuel" vehicles they surely will, do you think I would ignore the manufacturer's info and run E85 in my Gravely? I don't think so, unless Gravely specifically rescinds that policy in writing or provides a dealer installed workaround. The manufacturer of the electric fuel pumps in the 2001 Lincoln LS sent out warnings that E90(10% ethanol) gasoline would cause unwarranted damage to their fuel pumps(they, nor Form Motor Company provided a "recall/replacement" fuel pump because the cars were of a model year prior to the nationwide rollout of E90 and non-ethanol fuel was still available for purchase). Unfortunately, only repair shops and dealerships were sent this information, not the consumers who purchased affected vehicles. I guess you may be right in the sense that the car is 12 years old and had 120K miles on it before the fuel pumps died(probably 80K miles of that was using ethanol gas). I still think our government(EPA) mandating E90 and before it's over mandating E85 is a travesty in and of itself. If they force E85 down our throats I'll probably sell my cars and buy an electric Leaf or Volt!!!
 

phcaan

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Thanks for all of the advice guys. The only type of ethanol free gas I can get here in north Georgia is 87 octane. Don't know how that affects my 27 HP Kohler.

87 octane should work just fine in your Briggs engine. Years ago before computers high compression engines needed the higher octane to prevent pre-detonation, or ping. Now days most engines run about 8 to 1 compression and on top of that other than lawnmower type power plants the engines have computer control with knock sensors to change the timing as needed. If you use a higher octane fuel than your engine requires it won't make any difference, if you use a lower octane than recommended you may run into problems.
 

djdicetn

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Below is a link about my opinion(which I am quite vocal about) in another "ethanol debate" thread. For those of you like me that simply don't like ethanol blend gasoline, the link in my post below will give you a website where you can contact your legislators about supporting currently legislation before Congress to repeal the RFS(Renewable Fuel Standard) Act. Feel free to use it if that is your inclination(I did:0)

http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/gener...-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-7.html#post131687
 
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